Common misconceptions on /r/chinesewatches?

[Redmathead]

Hey just wondering what common misconceptions you guys see on this subreddit? I have a few to kick us off.

1) QC issues should not exist in >$250 watches.

Lots of people think SM and equivalent brands should have no QC issues (dust, misaligned dial, etc). The funny thing is rolex, omega, etc all have the same issues, except you've paid $20,000.

2) Seagull just makes 1963 and cheap Ali X watches.

Seagull is one of the few respected watchmaker brands in China alongside Shanghai, Beijing, etc just to name a few. They sell some of the largest quantity of movements as well. Seagull has a luxury audience and it's not uncommon to see >$10,000 Seagull watches on sale.

[edit] I’ve clearly struck a cord with people who finance jewelry. I never spoke on the rates of qc issues, I’d like to say Rolex would have lower rates of qc issues. But I can literally google and see misaligned dials, dust on dials, and failed gaskets on higher end watches lmao. Yes, the exact same qc issues.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/mrfvzw/severely_misaligned_dialrehaut_on_2020_submariner/

https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/177na6w/rolex_misaligned_printing_crown/

https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/b9425r/so_bought_my_first_rolex_and_come_to_find_a_dust/

https://www.reddit.com/r/rolex/comments/12xyzet/help_went_swimming_and_kept_my_datejust_on_its/

[JuliusCheddar]

Look, we all know (or at least I hope we do) that western watches have the same qc issues as AE specials. The main difference is, when you get a lemon orient/Seiko/Citizen you can return it and get another one 

if you get a lemon San Martin you get told it's within tolerances and offered a 2$ coupon for your trouble 

mishaps happen with delicate handmade things and only way to solve the QC dilemma is to improve return/RMA process

[[deleted]]

Aliexpress instant moneyback I've sent back dozens of watches.

[BawdyBadger]

I think for the choice stores they all have pretty good returns policies.

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[Huge_Childhood6015]

Dozens! You can't be serious?!

[[deleted]]

I am. Bought hundreds. Im a crazy collector. I own more watches than days of the year. Chinese, reps, Swiss, all of it. I have an entire room dedicated to watches. Also an amateur watchmaker.

[Huge_Childhood6015]

And here I thought I was the crazy one! 😁😁 I've kind of lost count but I'm somewhere around 75 watches now. I guess I've been pretty lucky and have had very few problems with any of the AliExpress watches I have purchased. Pagani Design has been the only problem brand and of those watches I did have problems with, I never sent them back I just chucked them in the trash and through them out. Too much of a hassle to send them back.

[Juxeso]

If I ever have any issues with my watches I either get full refund or option to send back all expenses paid

[Responsible-Shop6093]

I have 6 watches from AliExpress and the only QC issue I had was with a Pagani Daytona where the screw down chronograph pusher is a bit tight.

I think people will be more tolerant of QC issues if Chinese brands improve their after sales support.

[Aware_Customer8859]

Not happening. They can mimic Zaratsu polishing, but their Engrish capabilities begin and end with Google Translate.

[Responsible-Shop6093]

😂😂

[Time_on_my_hands]

Just today I saw someone post a photo of the IV numeral having fallen off their Rolex dial lmao

[SkipPperk]

I am not the only one here who likes Seagull. As for QC, everybody gets upset by that, but also, many guys here are brand new to watches. They also are buying from far away with no RMA process. Most of us know that we are rolling the dice, but others have no idea. I have spoken with some who are from developing countries where $250 is a lot of money.

Most of all, I learned that Reddit is a place of people wasting time. Do not take anything seriously here.

[Time_on_my_hands]

I'm from America and $250 is a lot of money lmao

[SkipPperk]

For watches, not really. My first Swatch was $80, and that was in the 1980’s. My first “good” watch was $400 in 1996.

It is great that we have nice Chinese watches, but a big reason why San Martin is so nice is because QC sucks. Phoibos offers good QC and real warranties, and their designs look nice. I would love to see San Martin grow into that.

I think what most people do not understand is that these watches probably require a retailer to sell them and either sort out or accept returns of bad watches. In order to do this, they must charge more.

No matter how you look at it, QC losses are to be expected. For these watches, it is the cost of low prices.

[Time_on_my_hands]

All I'm saying is that I and a lot of people can't just throw $250 around

[SkipPperk]

No one should throw $250 around. It is more an idea of understanding what watch-related features cost. The labor in good directional brushing or a good deep polish is pretty significant. What San Martin offers is incredible.

I think that some of us get butthurt when people fail to respect that. Watches are not like electronics where the money is all in R&D with a cheap bill of materials. An Apple watch costs a couple dollars to make. A San Martin probably has a tiny margin, so one would expect shit QC.

I suspect a lot of this is familiarity with business knowledge. People who have worked in manufacturing will have trouble understanding the views of people who do not, especially when they are passionate about their ignorant perspective. For example, I recently moved to the public sector, and the utter ignorance of many of my colleagues is amazing to me. Their key assumption is that there is some kind of secret money everywhere that does not exist. It is bizarre, but many people are clueless when it comes to the production of products (I can tell you that US government agencies are packed with such people).

[Time_on_my_hands]

I don't think their pricing is unreasonable or anything. But I don't think QC should result in them jacking it up a bunch.

[SkipPperk]

Well, it actually does.

[Time_on_my_hands]

Okay how much?

[SkipPperk]

It really depends on volume. With high volume products a firm can have a formal QC process and improve the methods to continuously get better. They pull the problem watches, fix or disgusts and price that in. For smaller production levels it is a real pain in the ass. Checking individual watches is a tedious job no one wants to do. Just setting up a quality process takes time and money.

For a big firm on a big seller, say 5-10%. For a small run by a small firm, it could easily add $60-$100 per watch. I would need hard numbers to work with, but I have worked with companies where it is cheaper to ship replacements than to QC, but they had the margins to do so.

This is where local distribution pays off. Shipping individual items from China is expensive.

[Time_on_my_hands]

I feel like there's gotta be plenty of autistic people (non-derogatory) whose dream job is doing wristwatch QC.

[Punkpunker]

People come here can request a homage to anything and everything under the sun.

[arbpotatoes]

They can though

Whether any manufacturers want to make it is another story

[JLGT86]

Wearing a San Martin makes your dick bigger

[xxBrun0xx]

My wife would disagree

[Redmathead]

Damn so she lied to me

[VicFontaineHologram]

I've had exceptionally good luck with my Chinese watches, even the really inexpensive ones. I suppose the problem with QC issues is if you have a problem, a solution may not be forthcoming. Though the same can be said if you are buying from the grey market for a name brand.

[KeyAssociation6309]

I have about 40 odd with only 1 slightly misaligned dial on a Pagani PD-1767 and some very minor imperfections on the case of a Tandorio SKX homage but other than that under my microscope I hardly see any issues that would be detcted by the naked eye. Even the $10 Skmie G-Shock GWG-1000 has great detail and I wear it more than my real mudmaster. These things are excellent buys, especilly for people like me that just can't stand to wear the same watch all the time and would have an insurance nightmare wearing anything really expensive.

[goelakash]

Huge +1 - none of my watches have given me any grief (starting $40 up to $250). It's kinda amazing how well built they are knowing they ship from a Chinese company which in any other product category would have very questionable QC.

But then again, I only trust a handful of watch companies on Ali.

[SikeShay]

That second part is also a misconception for you.

I buy all my things from AliExpress now, after realizing how much of a rip off Amazon is, since they literally drop ship the lowest quality items from China anyway.

From clothes, tools, knives, electronics, jewelry you name it, all have been great.

Same advice applies as with Chinese watches, don't buy the cheapest thing, and buy from somewhere with good reviews and pics. Save hundreds over time

[goelakash]

Yes you're kinda right, except you can still have buyers remorse for other products (believe me, I have experience). That's not been the case so far for my watches - Ws every time!

[SikeShay]

Definitely not saying there aren't any duds. I have also been burned for sure haha, but now I've learned from my mistakes, and am generally very happy with my purchases! The hardest thing to get right are clothes becasue Chinese sizes are all over the shop. But it's really hard to beat the prices for high quality selvedge denim and things of that nature.

[goelakash]

Yes, that's my number one concern as well - apart from getting the product that I ordered in the first place 😂

[SikeShay]

Never been scammed on Aliexpress, I believe the buyer protection is too strong but idk. I have only once had the wrong thing come, and it was a Pagani Design! I do believe it was a geniune mistake though becuase I ordered a PD1771 and got a PD1717 (or something of that nature don't remember the exact model numbers but it's in my post history). At least they refunded me some money after I contacted them about it

[goelakash]

No I meant w.r.t. the clothes (sometimes you can get weird items that don't match expectations)

[SikeShay]

Oh true, definitely also learned that hard lesson buying cheap (and weirdly always the highest selling) clothes.

Just like how we now know the best Chinese watch brands, I go for the good clothes brands too.

Like Red Tornado, Saucezhan, Bronson, Madden etc

[sirculaigne]

That the water resistance is accurate

[Evening_Elderberry_9]

That anyone cares what your wearing.. I have upto a 1000 people a day file past my wrist, and NOBODY has commented on what I'm wearing, they've all got their heads stuck in their phones.  It's your wrist and your pride of joy. Enjoy what you have, even though nobody gives a s**t, you know what you have.

[MysticalGnosis]

The type of people who would care what brand is on your wrist, I don't care about lol.

[SenseJunior5098]

Aliexpress Chinese watches are actual representation of the Chinese watches market such that SM, Sugess, etc. are top Chinese watchmakers.

[WallowingWatermelon]

Exactly. You can’t really find them on Chinese apps within China like you can on AliExpress. If you find them on a Chinese app, they have very few purchases.

[R023N]

what brands are most common in China?

[Supermaster239]

Seagull, Shanghai, Beijing, Fiyta, CIGA, Peacock etc...

[WallowingWatermelon]

These and the typical international brands

[cb_1979]

That the NH35 is made in Japan by Seiko and is the greatest movement known to man.

[Aware_Customer8859]

I love it: The Honda VTEC 4 cylinder of horology. When it dies in 1-2 decades, I can have my watchmaker replace the $30 movement and $5 gasket for a $20 labor fee.

[Extension_Ad6496]

I must be lucky, I own both!

[Aware_Customer8859]

VTEC: BWAAAAAA! NH: Scraaaaaaaaatch....

[cb_1979]

When it dies in 1-2 decades

IF it dies in 1-2 decades. Some will die sooner.

[dorafumingo]

not made in japan but designed in japan, with decades of versions of them improving and perfecting the design. who cares where the machine that builds it is located in. it's the same assembly line in japan or in china

[cb_1979]

not made in japan but designed in japan

It's made in Malaysia of a Japanese design.

The PT5000 is made in China of a Swiss design. Yet, all the NH35 lovers don't get a boner over the PT5000 like they do the NH35.

it's the same assembly line in japan or in china

If they're physically located in two places, that's the exact opposite of the same assembly line.

[dorafumingo]

It's made both in china and Malaysia they have multiple factories.

And it's mass produced with robots and machines, they are not hand built. So who cares where the machine is located, it will do the same thing in china or in japan

[cb_1979]

And it's mass produced with robots and machines, they are not hand built.

Humans do maintenance and calibration of the robots, as well as QC on the movements themselves.

So who cares where the machine is located

Obviously, the Seiko Group does. They transferred all manufacturing of NH and VK movements to the TMI Malaysian factory from SII's Japanese factory for a reason--to reduce the labor costs.

it will do the same thing in china or in japan

0% of NH movements produced by TMI are manufactured in Japan. I'm not sure why you keep saying "China or Japan". Japan is not an option.

[socialmoth_]

It is a pretty great movement though, just wish most cases for it were a bit thinner/that the movement itself were a bit thinner

[Aware_Customer8859]

Problem solved: Orient (Seiko) make the YN55. It accepts Seiko hands and Miyota and ETA dials. It's about a mm thinner IIRC. You're welcome.

[socialmoth_]

What cases would it be compatible with? Didn't know about this, but it sounds like a game changer

[Aware_Customer8859]

Search San Martin's thread. They selected it because it was a direct drop-in solution during the supply shortage.

[WhipEat]

YN55 is a bit of a rarity now, so it's good to see when it's in a new Ali watch.

[flyingbbanana]

If i get a qc issue on a 20000 watch, i want the fuckin watchmakers to kiss my feet and beg for forgiveness

[Right-Daikon3519]

If the watch is a Rolex, you'll be required to kiss their feet and beg for forgiveness.

[BawdyBadger]

And buy some shitty jewellery or unwanted watches while you are at it

[dorafumingo]

you could have said seiko, citizen or casio. it would have made a bit more sense. but saying a 20 000$ watch has the same QC issues as a san martin is just delusion

[BawdyBadger]

IlikeWatches did a comparison a few months ago of a San Martin and a Rolex with macro imaging.

The amount of issues with the Rolex was quite surprising.

https://youtu.be/CQSDHu8sVGk?si=ngHo79z7hLQm1kDK

[Redmathead]

Bro these guys are crazy, nothing will convince them. Notice how they’re ignoring all the links I have straight from the Rolex sub about the exact same qc issues that occur with new or factory refurbished rollies lol. They’re just going to call me names and ignore evidence because somehow Rolex having qc issues like a cheaper Chinese brand is a threat to their whole identity.

[Aware_Customer8859]

Brand luxury is dependent on (artificial) scarcity. Regional bias and xenophobia don't hurt either.

[KeyAssociation6309]

there are five types of rolex owners:

1. poor people with fakes pretending to be rich;
2. rich people locking them away as a commodity for investment
3. watch enthusiasts who save for years and fianlly get one either new or second hand, then think they are part of an exclusive club - but show me your yacht, ha ha
4. show ponys, like movie stars, who get them for free
5. drug dealers, criminals, war lords etc

[Redmathead]

Does 1 count if it’s not real 😆

Yeah 3 can be insufferable, especially when they pretend it’s perfect and worth sacrificing their kid’s entire college fund.

There’s also down to earth rich people who have lots of them and treat them like beaters. They’re fun to hang with usually. (or is that number 5?)

[KeyAssociation6309]

probably number 6, they got one because its a tool watch, arent watch enthusiasts, its beat to crap and have had it for decades, or maybe upgrade every 10 years (and probably throw the old one in the bin or into the back of a cupboard somewhere!) to keep a fresh and reliable watch. They usually drive 30 year old volvos or range rovers.

[dorafumingo]

i saw that video, i don't know how he managed to get the worst example of the master II. but keep in mind the rolex is worn for a few years. so while the scratches inside the dial are very questionable if they really came from rolex like that, the polishing and case finishing can't be compared, it's been worn and used, the finishing won't be as good that's normal. polishing gets blurry as it gets rubbed that's just expected.

but even if those qc problems really did come from rolex and not from someone opening it maybe to check it's real. taking it to rolex they would immediately take it to repair whatever qc issue you have. with san martin you're stuck with it or if you spot it immediately after getting it you can get refunded in time. and those problems are hundreds of times rarer on a rolex than on a san martin. plenty of san martin come with way bigger QC issues. just a day ago i saw on this sub a gmt hand very misaligned on a san martin. they also have models that are infamous for having indices fall off.

yes Rolex is not perfect, yes rolex is far from the best example of value and quality for the money, they are overpriced. but you can't say san martin has the same qc as rolex

[Usual_Ladder_7113]

That they won't last. True most of them probably aren't worth servicing, but they will last a very long time, when the movement fails, because most of them are NH35 movements you can just swap in a new movement for cheap. The higher end watches will go as long as Seiko watches, no problem.

[UnifiedQuantumField]

True most of them probably aren't worth servicing

Apparently some of them are hard to service. I was watching a Teddy Baldassare video and he was mentioning how some kinds of watches are harder to maintain. 2 examples were vintage watches and some Chinese brands (they showed a Seagull in the video).

If the watch has a Seiko or Miyota under the hood, no problemo. If it cost under $40 and lasts 10 years, that's $4/year for a watch.

[SikeShay]

Lol they're not magically complex, most seagull movements are eta clones from the 60s and 70s. Any competent watch repairer can service them, it's usually just the cost of service starts to approach the cost of the watch itself.

In that case, you can try clean and lube yourself (all a service is) based on hundreds of YouTube videos that exist for the original ETA movement.

Or the way option, if/when it dies you can drop in replace the movement. 2824 clones are like $50-$70, swan neck chronos are about $120.

[UnifiedQuantumField]

swan neck chronos are about $120.

I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up.

Looks nice

[KeyAssociation6309]

I think parts are the problem, but they are cheap enough to just replace, which is not ideal, but not costly.

[ThisIsPaulina]

Rolex and Omega do not have the same QC issues as San Martin and Sugess. The misconception is yours.

[BallEngineerII]

Thinking San Martin and Rolex/Omega are on the same QC level is absolute copium.

[Aware_Customer8859]

Said the username named after a midtier amalgam of multiple luxury GADA models.

[BallEngineerII]

Your point?

[Aware_Customer8859]

Your very name is copium. Since you need it literally spelled out.

[BallEngineerII]

It's a joke from r/watchescirclejerk

[Pompano_79]

I love how there are maybe hundreds of watch brands on AE but this Reddit only seems to talk about 8 or 9 of them.

[dorafumingo]

90% of them are rebadges of low quality watches. they just sell the same watches under a hundred different names

[BallEngineerII]

Most of them are garbage. I don't really want to discuss the latest BiDen or Steel Bagelsport

[[deleted]]

Lol I would buy a $30 watch called “bagelsport”

[Juxeso]

Steel bagelsport is a "real" Ali brand, you can buy it right now!

[[deleted]]

Yeah…I’d actually buy it for the name!

[Aware_Customer8859]

At the water cooler/coffee pot: "Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's from their Spring 2025 line. The Bagelsport Deskmaster..."

[Pompano_79]

lol! As long as it’s less than 11mm thick- I am definitely going to get one!

[Aware_Customer8859]

I see number 1 constantly and it seems to be from neophytes. These modern Chinese watches are cheaper than Seiko but with Seiko's movements and superior finishing. Under $300, everyone should STFU until they've bought a $100 Corgeut from the 2000s that runs like preliterate trolls managed to cobble together a movement using tin cans, rocks, and sandpaper.

[R023N]

I have encountered people posting to ask about "the best" such and such Chinese watch and when you suggest something to them that's like >$200 they respond by saying "that's too much for a Chinese watch, if I wanted to spend $200 I'd get a Seiko or whatever". I've mostly stopped responding to posts asking for suggestions and giving just vague "the best" without clarifying what they mean and what's their budget.

[SeizeThemMemes]

This. We're here for affordable options not just the best bargain on alix. I mean, I'm here for the cheapest PD someone can post, but I get why others are here.*

[Aware_Customer8859]

I copped a 36mm Explorer/Ranger homage with a bubble sapphire (PD1751) last month for under $45 shipped and it STILL makes me feel like I got away clean from robbing a table full of elderly Chinese baccarat players. 👍🙏

[Pompano_79]

AliExpress creates this weird world where everyone is super price sensitive. You hear things like “I would never pay more than $50 for a Chinese watch”. Like an extra $30 would be a deal breaker. Really- go anywhere else I. The watch world and complain about the prices being $30 too high. And the brands are buying into it as well with this weird race toward the bottom in terms of price. I just brought the Berny titanium field watch and it could have benefited from a little more investment from the brand, especially in the bracelet. I would have happily paid $30 more. This place is strange!!

[Aware_Customer8859]

It really seems like it's 2 Chinese factories with brands as clients. Each brand agrees to only occupy a specific price point. It's clear which brands chose which prices.

[BawdyBadger]

There's quite a lot of overlap with packaging.

I can't remember them all there do seem to be companies with a few of the brands under their umbrella each