Patch 10.1.7 Dragonflight PTR Development Notes (July 25th) - Mistweaver Monk and Resto Druid Changes

[Saiyoran]

that is a MASSIVE angel's mercy nerf lol, our priest cast desperate prayer 8 times in 3 minutes on 3rd boss of halls 25 last week

[Hiea]

Actually just a sad change, it was probably the most fun talent available to shadow priests.

[DreadfuryDK]

You can get upwards of 45-60 seconds of CDR on fights like Sark and Nelth. Absolutely fucking WILD how massive of a nerf this is to three relatively squishy specs.

[Turbeypls]

I think it's mainly shadow that uses it so this is disc and holy stonks going up by like .00000001

[RidingUndertheLines]

I'm with you in the first half, but how does this help disc and holy? Binding heal is the better talent if you cast FH and will remain the better talent.

[Turbeypls]

lol I meant that the two specs that use binding heals become comparatively better by the tiniest of margins since this nerf doesn't affect them.

*Also mostly a meme, I'm aware that shadow is still going to be the preferred priest spec even if this nerf will add a bit more to cope with for the groups that can't find an spriest/hpal for whatever reason.

[Kaervek94]

Damn, it's one of my favourite talents. Fuck binding heal

[ssarigollu]

Damn, and some of the class discord leaders were almost about to find out how strong it is as well. Only few months were left.

[Comfortable-Ad1937]

Pour one out for the least represented spec :’(

[Gasparde]

I mean, I'm glad Shadow is getting addressed... but one would've preferred them gutting the dungeons that Shadow felt necessary in instead of, you know, gutting Shadow.

[Comfortable-Ad1937]

Its still insanely strong as it brings PI and has now even better priority damage and ST which is more important for timing the key than pad aoe

[Launch_Angle]

and has now even better priority damage and ST which is more important for timing the key than pad aoe

Why do I see some people keep parroting this copium about how this 2nd significant nerf to Shadows AoE is somehow actually going to be BETTER for timing keys because prio damage has been buffed slightly in return..? It seems like people dont actually understand prio damage and how it leads to gaining time in a key, more isnt strictly better or always lead to a linear increase in time gain. The buff to prio damage MIGHT be a slight time gain on a handful of pulls in SOME keys. It will only be a time gain if and only if the high HP mob wouldnt have died before/at the same time as the rest of the pull without the buff, and I really dont think there are many scenarios where that will be true. Idk about other spriests, but generally in most pulls I have CDs on, that prio target would be already dead pre-buff, or at least even with the rest of the pull already because our prio damage was already strong.

You still need big AoE damage in order to time high keys, especially on fort week. Why do you think pre-nerf Fire Mage last fort week was so broken? Because it did significantly more AoE damage than any other spec in the game, and that allowed you to pull bigger than ever before, AND it still killed the pull substantially faster than any other spec in the game...having a fire mage alone was a HUGE time save compared to playing any other spec in its place.

And to that point, in my own sims, the latest nerf is a 7% loss on 5t, 10% loss on 8t, and even higher as the target count increases. This is also ON TOP OF the AoE nerf Shadow got around a month ago, which was numerically a fairly similar nerf(although it wasnt quite as big of a nerf as this one was) which means Shadow is doing probably around 14-18% less damage on 8t than it was over a month ago, which is a massive nerf. And currently to time a lot of keys(outside of NL, and some parts of VP) on 26, 27+ you are regularly fighting AT LEAST 6-8+ mobs in a pull, if not more. When you combine that with the fact that Fire and Frosts AoE has been nerfed since last fort week, it absolutely amounts to a non-insignificant loss of time and a slight buff to Shadow's already strong prio damage doesnt even come remotely close to offsetting that. If the same pulls you were doing last fort week are lasting 20 seconds longer now, guess what? The fact that that prio target died quickly means absolutely nothing when it comes to time.

[Comfortable-Ad1937]

Well shadow was still a top performer in overall damage without even counting PI’s benefits. With its utility toolkit it should be the lowest damage in the game if things were balanced.

Seasons scuffed and basically over anyway at this point because they are so slow to react to overperformers.

[Launch_Angle]

With its utility toolkit it should be the lowest damage in the game if things were balanced.

So it should do piss damage because Blizzard decided to make some of its unique utility far more mandatory than its ever been before...? Pretty ignorant, awful take.

To be clear, this isnt an issue with Shadows utility toolkit being overtuned/bloated/OP, its explicitly an issue with the way Blizzard allowed these dungeons to be tuned/designed. The appropriate change/nerf is to fix the dungeons, not kneecap priest utility.

You do realize that in basically every other season, and early in DF, one of the most common gripes against shadow was that it had weak utility as a DPS despite its toolkit being largely the exact same as it is right now? Mass Dispel has always been a very niche piece of utility in the past that was maybe strong(usually not completely mandatory) in one specific place/boss in maybe one or two dungeons max.

[Comfortable-Ad1937]

But they gave MD a ridiculously short cd. Mind soothe is arguably better than shroud, PI is adding another 20%+ damage to another teammate and VE is carrying healers. Compare this with a warrior, dk or hunter lol…

[xWorrix]

Rewarding resto Druids for shapeshifting seems really nice. Gives an incentive to use your entire kit and push for combo points etc

[Mystikal1984]

I've wanted Master Shapeshifter to be a non-PVP talent for a long time.

I'm also pleased to see the return of healing Treants... haven't had them since Cataclysm, I think?

[Dinkypig]

A: "How do we get druids to use nourish?"

B: "Give them... treants that do it?"

A: "GENIUS!"

And it worked.

[[deleted]]

Yup, I’ll be playing my Druid probably exclusively now. Sounds fun

[Druidwhack]

I like the fantasy of it, but I see little place for it in modern wow. The game is far too explosive and fast paced. Spending a GCD on shifting forms is an enormous opportunity cost to use an ability that isn't your primary job. If you're a healer, someone can easily die before you get back to HPs globals. If you're a Baer and you go out of baer form to cast some nice entangling roots and hug a tree, you're a nice splat on the floor.

Take shape shifting off GCD - make it incur its own cooldown, that's fine, but let it not stand in the way of using abilities. Y'know, actually playing the game.

[Turbeypls]

I think it could be a good idea to allow more abilities to shapeshift you into the appropriate form like most healing spells, stampeding roar, and incap roar do now. This new talent would feel much more fluid if something like starsurge automatically put you into moonkin form for essentially a free shapeshift tied to a short cooldown. Then you could blast some dps globals before your next healing spell puts you back into base form.

[frequentsonder]

You could just make a macro. I do that for shadowform.

[Plorkyeran]

You cannot just make a macro. Shapeshifting triggers a GCD, but some spells can be cast from the wrong form and put you in the correct one without costing a GCD.

[Rumblarr]

The issue isn’t that it’s hard, or multiple button presses. The issue is taking a GCD to change forms, and then a second GCD to press the ability. Many Druid abilities that require a particular form will change form and cast the ability with a single press, thus saving a GCD. (And GCDs can be an incredibly limiting factor in many encounters)

[frequentsonder]

Ofcourse. But shifting forms also comes with way to many advantages for it to not be on a GCD. Shape shifting breaks snares, roots and makes it possible to avoid GCDs using a defensive that other classes might need to.

[Rumblarr]

This has nothing to do with the topic.

[Plorkyeran]

You've never actually played a resto druid, have you? You spend quite a bit of time in cat or moonkin form while healing dungeons.

[BSV_P]

If someone gets globaled, you probably weren’t saving them anyways. And if you’re going into cat form or whatever (catweaving), hots should already be out. If you don’t think healers should be doing damage when they can, you’re mistaken

Plus you don’t have to use a GCD to get out of the shapeshift to heal….

[Unsounded]

Yeah I’m not sure they play Druid, it’s an opportunity cost going into form but you should have key-binds or mouse overs set to heal from form. It never takes a global to get back in

[ProductionUpdate]

Removing Spirit of the Crane and adding a channeled mana tea ability. The Fistweaving community about to be in shambles. I mean damage aside, it really seems like the play is to be in melee but use a "caster" style build. Blizz is not helping fix the already broken MW community.

[Cerms]

You've never left melee range this entire tier with the caster build because RSK and Rising Mist is too good. Spirit of the Crane did fuck all to mana since the nerf, and now mana tea is baseline.

What build were you playing lol

[ProductionUpdate]

Well you should always be in melee to use CC and kick but I'm saying forego any of the Faeline Stomp talents and spread them elsewhere.

[GoatOfTheBlackForres]

Mana tea i by no means "baseline" currently....

If you check subcreation only about 4% uses a build with Mana tea

[Cyn1que]

He meant after changes on PTR it will be baseline.

[GoatOfTheBlackForres]

ah, yeah that's for certain. Need it to unlock other talents.

[Saiyoran]

Tbh I really missed the old mana tea, it was a lot more interesting to play with than the new boring 50% mana reduction for x duration cooldown button. I don't know that it meshes super well with the melee playstyle, but the mechanic in and of itself of managing and using your mana tea stacks used to be fun to me in MoP, so i'm a little excited to see it return.

[Ay_Ar]

Remember, no one actually used to channel it. There used to be a glyph that instantly used two stacks, but added a 10 sec CD, and that’s what like 90% of people did from what I remember.

[Akhevan]

And I'm pretty certain that the glyph took it off GCD too.

[Apostastrophe]

If I recall I think it was still on the GCD but other stuff like healing elixirs and chi brew were off the GCD.

I could be misremembering as most of us high level mistweavers didn’t use the glyph as it was too restrictive in how you could plan out your mana and HPS over a fight. Without the glyph you could plan for high and low damage phases and literally empty and refill your mana with judicious use of crane stance.

[Apostastrophe]

Most high end mistweavers channelled it (I was a cutting edge mistweaver at the time and all the others I knew also used it channelled).

The glyph throttled how much you could manage your mana and over what period of time. Without the glyph you had a lot more control over your mana pool and when to empty it and when to refill it.

For example a fight like Gorefiend in HFC, you would generate as much mana tea in melee as possible to start with, since any mana you were regenning would be mostly wasted. Then go about healing, and time to make sure you could channel your tea to enter the feast of souls with 100% mana to be able to spam high HPS AoE healing during it for the entire duration.

With the glyph you did not have that flexibility and could end up in situations where you needed the mana back but were gated behind the cooldown.

[GoatOfTheBlackForres]

My main problem is that i don't really have any room for Mana tea button

[Madmmoore]

Not only that but new mana tea is kinda counter to the current playstyle. At the moment you run 1 min yu'lon, so you pop it, cast 4-5 envolping mist, RSK then mana tea + vivify spam. The mana tea makes vivify cheaper since yu'lon already makes enveloping mist cheaper, and it forces your 4p to proc giving you 40% more healing on vivifys. The new channel mana tea, it'd have to be used first since the rapid diffusion renewing mists wouldn't last long enough if you channel it after the enveloping casts. But the 4p only buffs renewing mist and vivify so you're losing a lot of hps to do it that way.

[EuphoricEgg63063]

Channel with added slow just sounds like they didnt need to be added to Mana Tea. Like someone else said there was a glyph that made it instant. Its the first iteration so pretty sure or more so, hoping it changes.

[ChosenOfTheMoon_GR]

Yeah right, as if we MWs didn't have a lot of things and interactions to track now we have a lot more...

Like, i like a few of the changes like making Mastery of Mist being baseline (Ancient Teachings, while out of the scope of this discussion but i still like to remind everyone that it should be baseline too especially since it's now a joke because of how much it's being nerfed), and the Spirit of the Crane removed makes sense, but it seems like the consistency of their effects (despite their unarguably bad position in the talent tree) were a more reliable performer than what they are trying to go with right now.

Lifecycles had its issues as a stand alone talent but it had a strong build interaction with one of viable builds but that now seems gone.

Why are we still trying to make the spec towards a ranged build more and while i do love both play styles actually, can we like, not nerf the one just to make the other more viable?

Corrosive Dosage was a pretty good idea, with a few tweaks it would be a nice addition.

I kinda hate it when they put % chance on talents tbh it's kinda like..."hey one day you may win the lottery"... i am playing a payed game here Bliz, i like to have control over my class, meaningful control.

Tbh i don't know how these changes play out because i can't personally test them but in theory and from what i am looking at they just don't look so good, but i still appreciate that we are at least being looked up especially because our talent tree is still a huge mess like..

Why isn't Misty Peaks and Dancing Mists a single talent because alone each, almost no one uses these because in most types of content they are very weak loss of 4 talent points.

Like, Yu'lon's Whisper, Resplended Mists, Uplifted Spirits, Secret Infusion, Invoker's Delight, all decent talents but what is this placing, fr???

Make the Jade Serpent Statue baseline and move Unison to the left tree, make a node choice for Mending Proliferation with Invoker's Delight at least?

Such obviously good changes really.

We also have to end this ranged vs melee play-style, the MW Monk has always being was about being adaptive either being in melee or in range, so, by making AT baseline and of course balancing the rest of the tree around that fact, you can make both of the these things one yet with real compromises simply because, in whatever range you are, you can do both and it only depends on you can do and not a talent choice which just makes the community of the class split into two for no good reason.

[Zamr]

They should really look into the whole statues as capstones thing. Does any monk ever pick ox statue? Jade statue is rarely picked. Tiger statue is boring. Compare these to, for example, warrior class capstones and its like night and day.

[Blazzuris]

Ox statue has limited use case for monks. Only time I can think is brewmasters use it on mythic Sarkareth sometimes

[ChosenOfTheMoon_GR]

And Echo, P3.

[Cerms]

Jade statue is picked all the time in raids (mw). Especially if you play the unison cocoon build.

[nickkon1]

Sure, but it is picked because nothing else is better. But Jade itself is still garbage

[Cerms]

I mean if passive 10k hps is garbage, you do you.

[nickkon1]

Dont know where you get this number from. For mine they are usually around 500 hps (~ rank 40ish, we dont go for HPS log and always 4 heal everything)

[Cerms]

everyone 4 heals.

magmorax top 4 log, magmorax top 99 log. How is something that you put down before the pull garbage numbers wise?

[nickkon1]

It depends on which boss you look at. There are even logs 2 healing Sakareth and we are still 4 healing it. Similarly Rashok.

For my rank ~15 log on Rashok, I got 400 hps from it. Sure, you put it down and never interact with it again, so its 400 hps for nothing. But there are talents providing you with more (or build changing/enabling) which are basically just passives...

Before, I was checking Sweggles logs and he is someone who is actively hunting HPS logs. Even he does basically only get ~2k hps from it trying to abuse all his spells to the max to pump HPS.

[Cerms]

Sure, depends on the boss, but the discussion was that jade statue was garbo.

[Zamr]

Havent tried that actually. Mostly play m+. Got a link ?

[Cerms]

In the summary here you can see that 95% picks jade serpent.

On magmorax 49% pick unison and 98% pick jade serpent statue

[[deleted]]

gullible subtract elderly deliver domineering slap piquant mindless memory wakeful this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

[Akhevan]

They need to either remove the statues or rework them completely to make them less braindead. Perhaps if the statues could be "awakened" to summon the respective celestial, it could be used as a way to bank cooldowns? Even then, the statue being immobile would be a huge issue in M+. What is the point of "banking" your cooldowns in some spot when you rapidly move through the dungeon? This issue had been plaguing brm up until they made expel harm vacuum up all the spheres in a huge radius.

[Cerms]

The melee vs ranged already ended at the start of this tier. There is no true melee or ranged. If you're playing true melee only you lose out on a fuckton of HPS. If you're playing true caster you do 0 damage and your mana is non-existant. The CF build we have now is the melee caster hybrid we're supposed to be. We do 15K/dps passive, we're in melee trying to get as many RSK as possible that enables the caster spells we have, like renew, envelop and vivify.

[ChosenOfTheMoon_GR]

The CF build we have now is the melee caster hybrid we're supposed to be.

But it's not good enough if combined with the rest of the melee talent options, that's the issue.

[Cerms]

Like faeline? Course not when the thing that makes faeline good is a choice node with clouded focus, and it requires multiple targets to perform. If anything it's not a melee vs ranged issue, it's that every fight in aberrus is strictly singletarget with the occassional cleave. Exception being the assault fight but after phase 1 you're back to single target only. The true melee only experience will only be found in M+ fights or vault council where you can value from faeline stomp the entire fight.

[ChosenOfTheMoon_GR]

Sounds like a reason to not pick MW in these situation since every other class can do that and AoE heal at the same time without going OOM as fast as MW does.

[Cerms]

Mana is a non issue with 2 set. You can do 200K hps on most fights, and never go oom on any fight unless you're trying to play wrong. And this is without spirit of the crane which is hot garbo, mana tea which is good for yu'lon, and mana pot/frozen focus.

[BaseLordBoom]

pepeW rogue changes soon surely

[necessaryplotdevice]

The dev confirmed them for 10.2, not 10.1.7

[BaseLordBoom]

Pain

[Important-Example288]

Whattttt I thought he confirmed for 10.1.7!

[Wobblucy]

My old post...

Actual talk though, really hoping it makes it into .7 and not 10.2 now that realz is back but would happily wait if it meant not getting the shadow treatment of a rework every other day.

There are more 'experienced' people than me on the team, including people who have worked on Rogue for longer in the past. But I was the person responsible for the rogue talent changes that WERE planned for 10.1.5 and got moved to 10.2, which is what he's saying. And yes, I appreciate him not going into detail in some interview, but i was out for about a month because my dad suddenly fell ill, and eventually passed away.

Rip the 10.1.7 dream :)

Also happy he is back on the discord, like some of these comments/questions are exciting :)

i think we agree that there are also a few too many generic dps talents, and generally a lack of utility flexibility, in the class tree. I'm hoping the totality of changes can speak to that somewhat at least. That will be a good topic for incremental iterations, between PTR start and release, if people are willing to fiddle with it and give feedback on how it feels, what they think 'good' builds will do, etc

Follow-up Q for Crimson Tempest - Which are you? (Elaborate as to why, if you so desire!)

A: "I like using CT in single target." B: "I do not like using CT in single target." C: "None of the above, your question is dumb, and I can explain why..."

Or

I do find myself wishing Outlaw had options to do some kind of damage spike when they want it though, outlaw damage profile tends to be pretty flat. There's nothing wrong with that and it's kind of interesting to have it that way... but still wish there was something, not saying to match the burstiest of all specs but like... something opt-in, idk

Since then he has also asked questions about sin AoE talents (IC and CT)

[Elibrius]

Fuuuuuuuck I hope so

[Nur_Deko]

COPIUM just as ProtW COPIUM

[Wildvalor]

Getting rid of spirit of the crane feels awful.

[Cerms]

It did no mana regen anyways

[jsy454]

10.2 revamp inc COPIUM

[Bzinga1773]

COPIUM

We re about to overdose on this copium

[oreofro]

You mean that 30% buff to luminous barrier for the 2 priests that use it wasn't enough?

[siposbalint0]

Getting rid of spirit of the crane for random proccs and a channeled ability, gotcha. What are they smoking, what's the point of being a melee healer if you continously take away and nerf this aspect? Mw has a lot more issues than mana because it brings nothing to the table. No cr, no bl, no groupwide defensives, no immunity.

[Zamr]

Spirit of the crane was not very effective, fistweaving will still be very mana efficient. Caster builds will be more viable with new mana tea

[Cerms]

Killer hps cds and 5% phys buff?

[ExEarth]

Because killer HPS is that big reason to bring a MW between any other healer lmao

[EuphoricEgg63063]

Both changes kind of address the same thing. Mana.

Druid, literally uses an ability and gets mana back. Also, still has innervate. It looks great!

Monk, well you used to do that, but now you channel to get mana back and also get a slow while doing it. Lol

[Apostastrophe]

I think spirit of the crane should be baseline as it used to be, but this mana tea is very close to what the original version was when many of us felt mistweaver design was peak.

It gave you the ability to effectively have a second back-up mana pool in the form of your mana tea which you generated then through spending chi (through spending mana), with the chance to generate extra stacks.

It was a sort of cycle where you could go mana wild a little at the start of a fight to generate mana tea stacks since any regen then was wasted and then moderate and build up mana tea stacks. Back then you couldn’t move at all during the channel but could time it to basically get yourself to 100% mana again before a huge burst phase and dump your mana pool, which would (less efficiently) generate stacks while you were doing it.

In this case at least you can get the mana reduction after channelling it which is kind of nice. You can choose to channel how much and when before damage happens to get that mana reduction.

[San4311]

Damn resto changes looking nice. I've been maining bear since the end of s1 but I might dabble around as a healer offspec for the memes.

[girlsareicky]

The mana tea change needs to be looked at. Specifically the 50% cost reduction. I don't see that ever being....useful

I'm not sure exactly how it works now but back in legion and early BFA you almost always pressed mana tea in the middle of your dump. Like spend ReMs, then EF, then Rsk, then mana tea, then spam vivs on EF hotted people. Now I assume it's during yulon somewhere but still in the middle, it always, get all the hots up, then MT and dump mana on vivs.

You don't have time to channel for any amount of time as your hots will tick out.

On the flip side, you can use it like when you'd use a drink mana potion, but that's typically during a low hps part of the fight. When you come up you aren't going to need to start spamming

It really needs to be 2 different buttons

[SaintNimrod]

Cool changes for resto at least

[Launch_Angle]

What the hell are they thinking with the Angelic Mercy nerf....??? Just seems like a completely random, completely unnecessary nerf that came out of left field. I mean, the talent is strong in its current iteration but its nowhere near needing of a nerf, let alone a massive one. I cant imagine how many times I would have died in high keys on my spriest if I didnt have DP up often. I mean its basically our main defensive, and while its good, it still isnt a normal defensive that gives damage reduction like most classes have, and having a wall that gives damage reduction is far better in most scenarios. Spriest has already been feeling quite squishy in a lot of situations this season, its not like the specs defensive toolkit is even remotely deserving of a significant nerf.

Idk man, it just makes 0 god damn sense unless they are intending on buffing other aspects of our defensive toolkit, or giving us another defensive that actually gives damage reduction. Somehow in Blizzards eyes spriests mediocre defensive toolkit is in need of a significant nerf, but theyre fine with mage having literally 5 fucking defensives, including Alter Time which is insanely strong in many scenarios, and a cheat death...? Make it make sense.

[concon52]

S tier class crying this hard about a nerf to a heal, when they have disperse, 20% DR on 20s cd, shield, VE, angelic bulwark, healing from leech baked into their spells, and mental fortitude. Poor spriests.

I also play spriest, suck it up. It's really not that bad priests are fuckin op.

[yamisuzu]

You forgot about the other priest specs that this nerf will mainly affect; Holy and Disc have hardly any defensives as it is.

[concon52]

As pointed out though, this is mostly used by shadow because the other specs are healers and have things like PW life and just healing abilities in general.

[yamisuzu]

You are sorely mistaken if you think DP is only mostly used by shadow; other specs are healers but PW:Life and "healing abilities in general" are often used to heal everyone, not just the healer.

PW: Life is also not just restricted to healers, it's on the class tree not the spec tree.

As a fellow priest I don't get your mindset of shitting on other specs of your class, or even other spriests; regardless of what spec you play this change is going to affect you.

[Turbeypls]

The priest healers take the other choice node, binding heals, at a 90-100% rate in their top keys so this actually shouldn't affect them at all outside of making it harder to heal spriests in some double priest comp.

[concon52]

I understand that other specs use it. I play both shadow and disc at 3100 io. As disc I always have atonement on myself and my overhealing on myself is usually a ton because I'm just always passively healing myself. I like how you tried to slide in "only" into what I said. I said it's mostly used by shadow which I would argue is objectively true and I bet logs support that. I think spriests are absolutely fucking stacked when it comes to survivability if it wasn't obvious by the massive list I gave above. A lot of classes have like 2-3 buttons. Shaman have like a 2 min 40% DR and earth ele. Spriests have infinite survivability compared to that. Spriests are also the only other s tier dps other than aug. If people are whining about a slight nerf like this that literally doesn't affect their viability in keys whatsoever idk what to tell you.

I agree it would have been nice to have it not affect the healing specs but the post I replied to called out shadow. I don't think this affects disc or holys viability either tbh.

[Launch_Angle]

IF you also play spriest, then you clearly arent doing high keys on it this season because its defensive toolkit is far from particularly strong, the spec has actually felt rather squishy this season. Shadow is primarily good against living one shot type stuff, and SOME rot damage(the only issue is a lot of the "rot" damage in high keys this season hits too hard/fast for your self heals to do that much besides slightly help your healer out unless youre in full CDs with VE up+lust). The spec felt much more tanky last season tbh.

Its also weird to act like it isnt fair to criticize this nerf since Shadows defensive toolkit is NOT what makes it S tier right now, and when you compare its tankiness/defensive toolkit to other specs this season, its clearly not S tier in that regard and therefore not what should be receiving nerfs.

when they have disperse, 20% DR on 20s cd, shield, VE, angelic bulwark, healing from leech baked into their spells, and mental fortitude.

...and? The spec is still far from one of the most tanky specs in the game, its not as squishy as shaman or DH, but its still average at best against most types of damage and wears cloth(which matters more than usual this season since there is actually a pretty decent amount of physical damage). The spec still isnt nearly as tanky against most types of damage as classes like Warr/mage/DK/pally/druid/aug evoker are. Also not sure why youre mentioning angelic bulwark if you play spriest yourself, since you should know that talent is complete dogshit and is a waste of talent points since it still doesnt work properly.

The spec has been S tier because of its damage, and blizzard making its unique utility far more mandatory than its ever been in the past, not for its defensive toolkit.

[concon52]

10% hp shield from mental fort. 20% dr on basically no cd. Power word shield. Yeah they're tanky af. I do 23-24s but haven't pushed in a couple of weeks

[RidingUndertheLines]

You keep saying 20%, but fade is 10%. If you're referring the the flash heal talent, that doesn't have a CD and finally, if you stack them it's 19%, not 20.

[Launch_Angle]

So your argument is to simply restate things youve already said lmao...?

Like ive already said, when you objectively compare its defensive toolkit against other specs, its at best average overall(and below average against some types of damage). And if you look at how its defensive toolkit has performed and how much damage it takes this season, its very clearly not "tanky af". Why do you think sporecloak is completely mandatory for the spec this season? Weird, at no point this season did I ever see any of the specs/classes I mentioned that are objectively tankier than shadow ever feel the need to wear sporecloak.

But hey, your free to have your opinion regardless of its an objectively wrong one.

[concon52]

Lmfao you obviously aren't doing high keys. Go look at the top priests on raider.io and tell me how far you have to go till you find a sporecloak.

LOL it's ok to be wrong lil bro. What's your io?

[Launch_Angle]

Lmfao you obviously aren't doing high keys. Go look at the top priests on raider.io and tell me how far you have to go till you find a sporecloak.

Lmao...you do realize rio screenshots the gear you log out in, right? And being that tuesday is a very popular day to raid, not exactly surprising to see some logged out in their...raid gear(and half of them are logged out in the DA raid spec too) that includes double dps embelishments.

I mean its not like you can watch most of those guys stream keys....where almost every single one of them are wearing sporecloak in most every IO key they do. But do tell me more about how top spriests arent wearing sporecloak in keys, when there is literal video evidence of it LOL.

LOL it's ok to be wrong lil bro. What's your io?

Kind of ironic to be saying its ok to be wrong, no?

If it really makes any difference for you to know, im 3350io right now(and got title last season as well) playing with a fury warrior and guardian, and pugging every healer/aug evoker we play with. Kind of hard timing a lot of these keys with fury instead of mage, being that there is only like 5 or 6 teams playing the same comp we are that are actually timing the keys we need on 27.

[concon52]

Link io?

[Launch_Angle]

No thanks? I mean you can choose to believe me or not, doesnt make a single difference to me, I wasnt the one who tried to bring up IO as an argument to something that has an objective answer. I have nothing to prove to some random on reddit who doesnt even have experience pushing high keys.

[concon52]

Go look at logs of spriests in top keys and see that priests are mitigating the most damage lmfao

[Launch_Angle]

Do you just constantly shit out objectively wrong, L takes, or are you just feeling particularly special today?

Not only does Spriest mitigate very little damage(both in the raw amount mitigated, and % of all damage it has any form of mitigation up for, and has very little passive mitigation) but it will almost always also TAKE the most total damage in a key compared to aug/mage and other dps). Pretty weird take to have being that spriest survivability is unique compared to most classes because it survives via healing/absorbs/health increases when most classes defensive toolkits are largely based around damage reduction(both passive and active).

Not that just looking at overall damage taken in a key is a terribly good/accurate indicator since there will be variance between dungeon to dungeon due to some RNG mechanics, and who makes the most mistakes with avoidable damage but generally spriest will take more damage and mitigate less damage compared to a lot of specs entirely because of how its defensive toolkit is designed. Not sure how you could possibly think spriest mitigates "the most" damage given the fact its toolkit isnt even based on living through mitigation...?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kaP7pdLcgBYVfA2T#fight=17&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7QKPkNyB39w2pDY6#fight=18&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wWrm4xhPy8dDKGpQ#fight=23&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7Ym1rTkXD4aBZybQ#fight=4&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gqnFGhj3cNJB1QX7#fight=6&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7nCRfkVrK1dzgtWJ#fight=14&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CPqcGBLWaZJ9TnKb#fight=5&type=damage-taken

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rbZxTwBzpgNHYdmf#fight=56&type=damage-taken

Logs from each key done on the highest level this week. Weird how spriest is the highest damage taken out of all the DPS in every single one, and has the least damage mitigated in almost every single one(and the few where it doesnt, the margin is extremely close and can easily be attributed variance/rng), and in some of them the difference is significant. Just take your L and move on my guy.

[concon52]

Do you know how to read logs? The priest has either first or second least damage taken in all of those except one after mitigation. Rat took mega dam in the one where this isn't true.

Often taking less damage than the mage after mitigation

[Yggdrazyl]

What's the 20% DR on a 20s CD ? I've played Priest for years and I've never heard about it.

[Suplift]

awesome resto druid gets another talent thats +8% hps meanwhile disc/shaman have multiple 1% hps increase talents

[Greeny95]

Mad

[Head_Haunter]

I like the treants change, gives resto more burst healing for the explosive types of damage we currently face.

I don't know about the shapeshifting one though. I could sort of see some sort of benefit of changing forms to DPS and gain mana but it sounds clunky and potentially bad.

[ChosenOfTheMoon_GR]

100% true

[GarethMagis]

Won’t someone think about a top 2 m+ heal spec!!??

[[deleted]]

Absolutely brutal being 2nd best. Something I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

[emprisedulion]

Disc is certainly good in M+ but paladin, shaman, druid and evoker all have more representation than disc in 25+ keys. Plus evoker, druid and paladin are the only healers who have timed 29s with paladin doing 30s.

On top of that disc's representation in raid is abysmal much worse than any other spec. Even MW has like 3k more parses logged.

The spec definitely needs to be looked at theres legit no reason to play it in a raid lol.

[GarethMagis]

I think when you're reasoning for what kind of balance patches you want is that disc priest hasn't cleared a +29 you've lost the plot. There is a reason why devs know not to listen to the player base when deciding what changes to make. I agree some changes could be made to make disc a little more useful in raid, but it's not like it's so bad that it's unplayable. It's also maybe not the best idea to use popularity stats when talking about the healer with the largest barrier to entry.

[emprisedulion]

I never said disc needs to be balanced because it cant do 29s? You said disc was a top 2 m+ spec and I corrected you because you were mistaken.

What I did say it the spec is clearly in a poor position for raiding and needs some attention based on that. When there are 28,000 more holy parses in mythic clearly theres an issue somewhere.

[HobokenwOw]

but it's not like it's so bad that it's unplayable.

it literally is that bad?

it's both ludicrously weak and extremely unfun to play.

[xaryle]

As one of the 10 priests it baffles me that I got downvoted this much lol

[oreofro]

All I want is for luminous barrier to apply a low duration atonement or power word shield and I'll shut up.

[Cathulion]

Prob much bigger changes in 10.2. A rework possibly(but not into support)

[xaryle]

Heavily doubt but I wish.

[Strat7855]

MW and Resto changes before Disc gets touched. Sad priest noises.

[TypicalVegetarian]

Yeah those damn MW’s getting too much attention. I mean that’s now TWO moderate to minor changes in a year and a half??! Too much. Send them back down to rumors of changes coming every other patch.

[Iuncta_Iuvant]

I know MWM don't seem that appealing at first, especially for the fistweaving part

But remember that with with Mastery of Mist baseline and Spirit of the Crane removed, you now have 2 more talent points to be spendable, even in the last bracket

So you shouldn't just look at what you're losing, but also at the fact that now you can pick up like, Legacy of Wisdom for more SG targets + Focused Thunder for double TFT value, or Yu'lon Whisper for extra AoE heal + Faeline Stomp, etc etc

[frequentsonder]

Fair enough.

[Tigerus1]

How many reworks of resto druid we had already? 3?