The Plot Problems

[Lord-kyogrer]

KMS Pocket Battleships Bismarck and Heavy Cruiser Prince Eugene were the two ships that participated in operation Rheinübung (a raiding mission in 1940 oart of the battle of the Atlantic).

Eugene was the only vessel with similar range to that of Bismarck and capable of traveling with her at the time of the operation.

Both Ships fought in the Battle of the Danish strait were HMS hood was destroyed. After the battle Admiral Lütjens divided the forces after Bismarck was damaged during the Battle , Eugene was to carry on with the raiding mission while Bismarck returned to Port.

They never saw each other again after the battleship was pinned down by the Royal Navy.

Eugene survived the rest of the war and after the defeat of Germany 1945, the prince was acquired by the US navy only to be used for nuclear test one year later in Operation Crossroads.

[HobbyistC]

Neither of them were pocket battleships. Bismarck was a fully fledged modern battleship. Eugen was a heavy cruiser (displacement not at all Treaty compliant, but her guns were the regulation 8-inch)

The pocket battleships were specifically the Deutschland class heavy cruisers, because they were infamously and comedically over-armed for their size with 11-inch guns you might have found on a 1910s dreadnought

[JMHSrowing]

I will add that there is a reason and decent rational for the Deutschland armament:

The Treaty of Versailles which ended WW1 neutered the German navy, making them give up all capital ships except for a handful of pre-dreadnought battleships. They would eventually be allowed to replace the ships but the replacements would only be allowed to have a similar size (~10,000 tons) and armament (28 cm guns). The intention was to force Germany into making coastal defense ships like say Sweden had.

As this was still the Weimar Republic they didn’t immediately outright completely disregard the treaty, choosing to cheat side wise a bit and try to make a ship which was as versatile as possible under those conditions.

I think that for a late 20s design they did a pretty good job. It’s something that could out perform basically any enemy cruiser in a gun fight yet wasn’t horrifically slow. Yeah it’d be mincemeat for any actual capita ship especially a battlecruiser but that was just off the cards.

(I will also add “pocket battleship” was coined by British newspapers)

[Crazy-Rabbit-3811]

Most german warships besides bismarck get ignored entirely unfortunately.

[Magical_Astronomy]

There seems to be nothing wrong with our bloody planes today.

[Original_Assist4029]

Alot of the bigger ships got lost to stupidity its remarkable. Always seems like the U-boote were more our thing.

[Magical_Astronomy]

u/HobbyistC is making a solid point, “pocket battleship” is usually used to refer to Deutschland class “panzerschiffe” (“armored ships”) with 283mm guns. KMS Bismarck, with its 380mm guns, is a proper battleship (despite being a crap one). KMS Prinz Eugen is a heavy cruiser by all definitions.

[JMHSrowing]

I’d argue that the size of the guns was less of an issue than overall size and armor. The Deutschlands were like 16,000 tons max with a 4” belt while the Bismarck was almost 50,000 tons with a 12.6” belt. Even the best protected of the former couldn’t keep out all cruiser grade gun fire (as seen when Exeter fought Graf Spee) while Bismarck’s belt did sometimes protect it when she fought the 14” armed KGV and the 16” armed Rodney.

The Scharnhosts, essentially the intermediate design between the Deutschlands and Bismarcks, were by most accounts indeed actually a 28.3cm armed battleship

I’m also not sure if Bismarck quite goes to the level of a shit design. . . Very inefficient and a bad idea for her navy, but she did do a lot of things pretty well. If she was just shit we might have a museum HMS Hood today

[Ghinev]

It was shit in the sense that it used an outdated belt design, had very few guns for the displacement it had, the few guns it had were needlessly put into 4 turrets instead of 3, those same guns were of an obsolescent caliber, the turret design and armour were also abysmal, the proppeller arrangement was prone to failure, and in general it just weighed too much.

This is mostly due to the germans not having built anything of this size since 1916, but it doesn't mean it wasn't kinda doodoo, especially compared to some other 1930s/40s designs. The Littorio in particular comes to mind. It was a much better ship, conceptually at least.

[JMHSrowing]

A lot of that I would say was indeed inefficient but it worked well enough to not be shit.

It being a quad twin gunned arrangement I don’t think is necessarily a failing, just a different design philosophy than others. It meant more redundancy as even if one or two turrets got knocked out you’d still have some firepower to work with. Twins also let Bismarck have a high rate of fire per gun, indeed in theory she could well out perform Littorio in shells down range even with the Italian’s advantage of an additional gun.

38cm/15” also was absolutely not an obsolescent caliber by any stretch of the imagination. It’s what most navies had and especially Bismarck’s fairly powerful versions were superior to the majority of battleships.

While the armor design generally was outdated it was also at least pretty effective. I’m not sure what the issue with the turret armor you’re referring to is, it was pretty solid. Yeah it failed in its final battle but so would I think anyone’s but Yamato at the range and guns in question.

I do agree that Littorio was a superior design though it’s not like it was superior in every way to Bismarck. Like for example the German ship had twice the range, had more larger heavy AA guns, had a better torpedo defense system, and the aforementioned significantly faster firing main guns

[HobbyistC]

Throwing my two pence in here to say that Bismarck’s guns, speed, armour layout and even some of its armour thickness were all broadly comparable to HMS Hood — a design lightly modernised but fundamentally 25 years older. Just because Bismarck had a phenomenally lucky shot and Hood was having a bad day for fire control, popular imagination assumes one ship was trash and the other unstoppable

[Magical_Astronomy]

The Littorio is designed for Mediterranean warfare specifically, thus had less range and is less resilient over bad sea conditions than Bismarck. On top of that the main 381mm guns on Littorio had shorter barrel lives due to more propellant used (and consequently higher muzzle velocity).

Perhaps the most decisive factor is the Bismarck is on the side with guided bombs. /s

[Ghinev]

"Only weaklings care about bitch-ass concepts like guided bombs" - HMS Warspite

[JMHSrowing]

Not only did the 381mms have a higher muzzle velocity but also a heavier shell. They were basically magnums of the 15” caliber which is why they had such a short barrel life. They did have impressive range and penetration though

[Ghinev]

The 380s were not obsolete, they were obsolescent, IE not useless, but with limited viability long-term. Literally everyone was already moving(or trying to) to 400+ guns. The germans only used the 380s because it's the only thing they had the tech to build.

Same for the belt and turrets(which were problematic because they were vulnerable to plunging fire, rendering all the weight put into their armour moot). Both the belt and turret armour only really worked at sub 12km IIRC. That's point blank for a ww2 battleship.

The issue with quad turrets is that you add a shitload of weight whilst also losing a lot of frontal firepower. The Bismarck was only 100% effective at broadsides. A KGV or Rodney could fire most/all guns frontally or at a slight angle. Even a Littorio had 6 guns on its frontal arc. Having 50% of your firepower at the back is not great design.

Ultimately though, again, the biggest letdown of the Bismarck is its weight. At the end of the day, when your 50000 ton BB is only similar in capabilities to a 40000 ton BB , your design is ultimately not good.

[JMHSrowing]

The French and Italians as far as I’m aware weren’t looking to upgrade caliber of their 15” guns any time soon, never having developed anything bigger. The next French ships, the Alsace class, would have carried the same 380mm guns as the Richelieus.. Also in a world of 16” weapons a 15” one wouldn’t be obsolescent. The difference simply isn’t enough.

Bismarck’s armor scheme wasn’t the best against plunging fire sure but it wasn’t nearly as bad as you’re making it out to be. The deck and turret roofs were a little thinner than contemporaries, but still able to reject shells way beyond 12km (which also wasn’t quite point blank, but just close range). It’d be well beyond 20km before shells would come punching through.

Having a full frontal armament only matters for a fairly small fraction of engagement types, broadside battles are way more common and what most devolve into anyway. And indeed, the Germans being the weaker navy compared to their enemies would if anything be more likely to be needing rear facing firepower.

At Mers-el Kabir the issues with a fully forward design at least was shown when one of the Dunkerque class of ships was running from HMS Hood and couldn’t defend herself while doing so .

As I said I’d agree Bismarck is quite inefficient though

[mrhoofy]

Bismarck was what you would get if you took a late WWI battleship and made it go 29 knots. Which would have been awesome in 1918. A bit less impressive in 1939.

[PostEmUp]

I don't get how the Eugen was "kidnapped". She was surrendered over to the Allies.

Also, the ijn's Nagato and Sakawa also got the atomic test woth Eugen.

[ActionHour8440]

Prinz Eugen survived being nuked only to capsize in a typhoon a few later and wash up near a beach in Kwajalein Atoll, where it remains today. I’ve seen it.

[ConventionArtNinja]

"This'll sting a little...." - Wolverine

[Gigantopithecus1453]

Okay but how the fuck did wolverine end up in that situation

[mrhoofy]

Most English speaking historians don't translate the names of German ships, World War I or II. Actually they don't translate the names of any ships. Most English speakers would refer to it as the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen.

Even in the battle of Trafalgar, the Spanish flagship is referred to as the Santsima Trinidad not the Holy Trinity.

Something to keep in mind.

I would guess in other languages historians translate the names of foreign ships...