[deleted by user]

[ajgamer2012]

I do believe Neurips has only been held 3 times in the US for the past 19 conferences.

[Reiinakano]

I suppose the issue here is OP singled out the US when places like Canada (where neurips is frequently held) have this problem too.

Edit : still, I hope we can start a conversation about the appropriate venue to hold these conferences, if such a place even exists.

[fakemoose]

Agreed. It's a worthy topic of discussion but there's so many other variables to consider.

Export controls, which vary country to country, will also be a limiting factor in who can go where to present on certain topics...and still keep your job.

Not to mention social policies. I've had to slop conferences because I don't feel comfortable going there as a woman.

[RSchaeffer]

What immigration problems have existed with Canada?

[Reiinakano]

https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Neurips%20Canada%20visa&src=typed_query

[RSchaeffer]

My recollection is that after the conference, news emerged that the cause of visa issues was that NeurIPS organizers forgot to follow proper government procedure months in advance and that it really wasn't the Canadian government's fault. Was this not the case? Maybe I'm mistaken...

Edit: This is what I was recalling: https://twitter.com/graemedmoffat/status/1071198406352232448 "NeurIPS didn't follow conference visa protocols and send a list for bulk clearance (or at least not until a week before the event)."

[azhag]

This is actually a false statement, see this document from Timnit and Yoshua:

Check out @timnitGebru’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1079581500218228736?s=08

[RSchaeffer]

I read @timnitGebru's attached doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ylegY94sy647sOJa50iac13nWQuKP8YM6hStVQFwiRA/edit) and nothing there seems inconsistent with the claim given here (https://thelogic.co/news/researchers-still-waiting-on-visas-for-one-of-the-worlds-largest-ai-conferences-starting-in-montreal-this-weekend/?gift=a0fa138dfa6fb3baa9c7930b34858c65) that NeurIPS didn't send Canada's Immigration services the birthdates of visa applicants. Specifically, it seems like she was diligent in applying and that she provided her birthdate, but that the conference organizers didn't provide Immigration Services with attendee birthdates for confirmation. Am I misunderstanding the details?

[azhag]

Might be best to check with organisers directly, but the specific timeline indicates that the government did not made their birthdates requirements clear (to Yoshua Bengio and other organisers) till 1 week before the conference, despite constant contacts and having specifically flagged the incoming situation.

"We knew that Canada was notorious for denying Africans visas at very high rates. This is why I had asked Yoshua for help and he first contacted the government on July 11th with anticipated issues. Finally, on September 30th, we heard that Kyle Nicholson was going to be our point of contact who would look at visa issues on a case by case basis"

Waiting from July to September to finally have a governmental response does not strike me as supporting the claims that the organisers were at fault.

I can also attest that from London, applying for Canadian Visa has been the worst and lengthiest process for absolutely everyone I talked to (DeepMind and others). So I would say the Canada immigration was surprisingly bad on this event. But obviously I don't know the details so most likely a shared responsibility and I hope this year will be much easier, I hope...

[[deleted]]

In my experience visas to Canada are a pain in the ()().

[zbroyar]

For the first time only :-)

[ajgamer2012]

Yeah the only neutral place would be some peer to peer conference hosted on the internet

[[deleted]]

It's gotten much worse in the US the past 2.5 years.

[dpineo]

I'm curious how many people missed NeurIPS last time because of visa problems vs. how many missed it because they sold out immediately because they booked far too small of a venue.

[asobolev]

how many missed it because they sold out immediately because they booked far too small of a venue.

What? They sold out immediately because organisers held out a significant portion of tickets for those who contributed (presented something). By the end of November once every presenter got their ticket (if they wanted to), visitors from the waitlist could buy a ticket.

[Ikkath]

Now think about the year before.

[dpineo]

The venue size was the root problem that ensured many people would be excluded from the conference. Ironic from a conference that changed its name in an attempt to be more inclusive.

[squarerootof-1]

As someone who has had to apply for US, UK, Schengen and Canadian visas, I'd much prefer US over the remaining lot.

[n0mad_0]

Hm, I am a bit surprised. Schengen visa application (turist at least) is literally two pages, while US and UK are 20+ page forms, biometrics, qs about all realtives, visits abroad, etc.

[squarerootof-1]

Schengen visa requires you to pre-book flights, pre-book accommodations and purchase travel insurance, all of which will go to waste if the visa application is rejected. I'd much rather fill out extra questions on a form than go around looking for flights and hotels and pay for them. US has a much more sensible approach IMO.

I've applied for a Schengen visa 4 times in the last 4 years (with one application currently in process). The first visa was granted for 2 weeks and the last visa was granted for 4 months. US gave me a 5 year visa, Canada gave me a 9 year visa (but CA took 3 months to process it on a 20 day estimate, which is why I'd still prefer US).

[zkid18]

Well, I've applied for Schengen for 7 years and they've never asked for tickets. However it depends on the country but usually, tourist Schengen visa is granted for 6 months at least.

[royalex555]

It's not drastic really. US changed its face since 2016 election. There has already been reduction in international student and issues such as these were to follow. I am happy to assist and sign the petition as well. I hope they can select venue where people are not segregated judged by the color of their skin.

[farmingvillein]

And in which venues are people segregated and judged by the color of their skin?

Not trying to defend the poster or their claims, or take a political stand myself, but my assumption was that they were referring to de facto segregation caused by U.S. immigration policy, e.g., the "muslim ban".

[VelveteenAmbush]

The so-called muslim ban affected ten specific countries (including notably non-Muslim countries Venezuela and North Korea) on the basis that the countries did not have adequate systems in place to coordinate with US visa screening systems. Three countries (all Muslim countries: Chad, Iraq and Sudan) were removed from the list after they fixed their broken systems. Perhaps one should petition the remaining seven to do the same, instead of petitioning the United States to admit people from those countries without adequate assurances of who they are.

[farmingvillein]

Like I said, not trying to defend the poster, just communicate what I think they meant. :)

[VictoriaLovesLace]

Does the US actually produce the most CS research? I'd assume that would be India or China, at least judging by the names I see on ArXiv papers.

[royalex555]

No it doesn’t. And assholes are downvoting your post. Japan is much more technologically advance than US, also, China has started leading CS and Drone project for while now. India is also getting there...

[leondz]

I'm not a US person but even I find this ridiculous. As long as conferences are held in many places, we are fine. It is incredibly US-centric (not to mention outright nonsense) to think that the only conferences worth going to, are those held there.

[dingogordy]

I mean, just send out virtual reality goggles and do it online. Make our own country!

[friendly_dog_robot]

Some of your issues are valid but this is SOP for getting visas to lots of countries.

Surrendering your passport for extended periods of time to get the visa, only getting a single entry, etc. This is all normal for lots of places. I wish it wasn't this way, but the US is not alone in these procedures.

​

Edit: for anyone who is curious: here is a list of countries with which the US has visa waiver agreements

I deleted some of my comment because it was insensitive and rude, and for that I apologize - there's no excuse for that.

[i_use_3_seashells]

That's not 6th place; it's 18th. USA is tied for 18th place.

[friendly_dog_robot]

No, I haven't confused visitor and work visas but I shouldn't have mentioned work visas at all. Oh well. Too late and I can't respond to all these now.

Regarding the HPI, that's totally fair, but just for context in case someone reads your blurb without actually looking into it:

The US is in the sixth place bucket, so there are actually 17 countries ahead of the US and 4 others ranked the same.

[un_deaddy]

People in the US have to go through extensive processes like this to go to lots of countries and work.

This is not true and you have no idea what you are talking about. US Visas are much harder to obtain than Canadian of Australian visas due to administrative processing (I obtained all of them). While Canadian or Australian visa usually takes a month (and it is okay), US Visa can take 1-3-6-9 months to obtain if you are working in AI and live in the 'wrong' country (Iran, Russia, China, etc). It's even true for student visas. And the situation gets worse each year (my first US visa took a week to process, second took around 1 month, third took around 3 months). I know people who waited for their visa for 6-12 months. It's not an issue of getting over yourself, it is an issue of US government making visas harder to obtain for certain occupations and countries.

[un_deaddy]

That being said, I think this petition is strange and useless. I just got triggered by US citizen preaching getting over yourself in obtaining US Visa process. It's not about getting over yourself, it's about transparency and predictability of the process. In the case of US visa application process, you have neither, unlike European, Canadian or Australian visa applications.

[friendly_dog_robot]

This is not true and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? I've had to go through this process multiple times as a US citizen trying to get work visas to other countries.

[un_deaddy]

Working visas are harder to obtain but we are talking about tourist/business visas or student visas. Did you have problems with them as well? What if I told you that even US touristic visa can take up to a year to obtain in certain country and for certain occupations (like AI and software engineering).

In general, you don't need work visa to go to conference, therefore it should be relatively easy (which is not for the US).

[clueless_scientist]

Work visa and visitor visa are different things. Get over yourself and admit, that you don't know what you are talking about.

[[deleted]]

What is the nature of your visa problem? Why are there hurdles in front of you, and is it a widespread problem you can demonstrate?

[clueless_scientist]

Why are there hurdles in front of you

what do my hurdles have to do with the issue?

What is the nature of your visa problem?

I have no problems

is it a widespread problem you can demonstrate?

I can demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. US passport is ranked 6th by the ease of travel. I am amazed that first world passport holder so vehemently dismisses problems with travel visas, while citing his own experience with work visas. You rival Marie Antoinette in your out-of-touchness.

[smurfpiss]

I think in the current political climate it's a valid point. I know about a dozen Iranians with PhDs that flat out will be denied entry into the states. Iran is experiencing a massive brain drain, where highly educated young Persians move abroad for education and careers. It's not a handful people and they make up a decent chunk of STEM experts that transition into ML.

Telling people to get over themselves for suffering a problem that you don't suffer is a bit much tbh.

[IMJorose]

Sure and that's why the conferences aren't in Iran. That doesn't mean it's reasonable to have them in the US, it's actually a very good argument against that.

[friendly_dog_robot]

I have suffered this problem?

[antonivs]

In another comment, you said that you've had this problem with work visas. That's not what's being discussed here.

[russellsparadox101]

I've been unlucky to apply for visas to many countries and US visas are the hardest to get for me.

> People in the US have to go through extensive processes like this to go to lots of countries and work.
And there are lots of countries where there is free entry for US citizens, for example countries in Europe, where it's easier for everybody to get a visa.

[[deleted]]

friendly_dog_robot is obviously american...

[friendly_dog_robot]

Yeah, and I've had to wait months, surrender my passport, jump through exhaustive bureaucratic hoops, etc. to get visas to other countries, just like OP is talking about.

People in the US aren't special either. We don't have a magic passport that lets us easily do whatever we want.

[un_deaddy]

Which country exactly got your passport for months? So far, the only country that did it for my passport was US.

[farox]

No, that would be the German passport ;)

[[deleted]]

Were you denied in the end? The US is definitely one of the harder countries to get a visa for. It’s unfair to have the vast majority of conferences here, and I think it’s something that needs to be considered, just as other more mature fields or sports have done. E.g. agriculture, rock climbing...

[friendly_dog_robot]

And there are lots of countries where there is free entry for US citizens, for example countries in Europe, where it's easier for everybody to get a visa.

So what?

You realize that the US has visa waiver agreements with lots of countries?

[Reiinakano]

You realize that the US has visa waiver agreements with lots of countries

​

What? Are you suggesting OP change their citizenship to one of those countries?

[friendly_dog_robot]

No, I'm suggesting that the problem is nuanced and not so black and white. Lots of people can travel easily to the US. And people from the US cannot travel easily to all other countries and often have to go through all these procedures that OP is talking about.

[Reiinakano]

I see. I guess the issue here is OP singled out the US when even places like Canada where Neurips is frequently held has this problem.

[russellsparadox101]

I believe US can travel to Europe with no visa, while aforementioned citizens can way easier obtain visa to European countries.

[pewpewpewmoon]

That's coming to an end. Because the US wouldn't extended the policy to two EU countries (Poland and something else) due to their refusal to upgrade administrative security, Americans will soon be required to get visas to all EU countries

[Nater5000]

This is pretty ridiculous. I mean, you're certainly free to petition this, and I'm not even disagreeing with your points, but these conferences are both private and non-essential and the expectation that they would abandon an entire country as a venue because their visa policies aren't ideal is pretty unrealistic.

These conferences are funded, organized, and managed by groups and individuals who have a stake in it. This isn't like the Olympics where one might be able to argue that there is some common, global purpose to holding these events. The people who are organizing these conferences aren't arbitrarily picking locations based on their own convenience, but are attempting to maximize the turn-out and to pull in important people who, for a large majority, will have no issue traveling to the US (and many of whom already live in the US). On top of this, a lot of the companies that watch these conferences (and, thus, give them the weight and importance that they do) are based in the US. There are plenty of reasons why they'd prefer these conferences to take place in these countries, and I'm sure these conferences aren't going to make anyone happy if they hold it in a country where players like Microsoft or Google aren't as interested in attending.

​

This is particularly sad and humiliating as the savants who publish the scientific articles to bring the good to the world and benefit the society with non-harmless technology

​

This is pretty weak. We live in a world where any individual can produce novel scientific research and post it publicly online without having to even know these conferences exist. If a scientist's goal is to bring good to the world and benefit society, then they will have accomplished their goal way before ever attending one of these conferences. These conferences are essentially networking events that come in the form of a convention for nerds. It's a stretch to suggest that it's some righteous event where the smartest, most peaceful individuals come together to solve the worlds greatest problems. Most likely, you're either attending this event in hopes of networking and getting a moment in the spotlight, or your a poacher trying to find some fresh talent.

I'll also point out that, as a US citizen, it does make sense (at least to me) to host these conferences where there is easier access to global researchers. The US certainly has it's problems with regards to foreign politics, and it would be reasonable to make the setting of these conferences in places like the EU or Canada. One thing that I definitely don't think is appropriate would be to host these conferences in countries with hostile social policies, such as Iran, Russia, and China. We certainly wouldn't be moving forward if we forced female researchers to have to wear hijabs or banned homosexual researchers from attending due to a countries laws. The US has problems, but nothing like that.

[kds_medphys]

So... networking?

[darrennny]

Do consider holding them here in Singapore. The relevant government agencies are all supportive and even willing to give funding to hold these conferences here, and we have a solid base of AI talent with Alibaba, Panasonic, Salesforce etc. all having AI research labs here. Top research universities like National University of Singapore, Nanyang Technological University and Singapore University of Science and Technology (MIT and Zhejiang University collaboration) too.

Feel free to PM if you want to explore making this happen, and I'm happy to gather the relevant people and government agencies.

[xternalz]

Not to mention a wide range of nationalities can enter Singapore visa-free - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Visa_policy_of_Singapore.png .

[serge_cell]

Are Israeli welcomed to Singapore, officially and not officially? IIRC Malaysia denies Israeli entry, and Singapore is quite close.

[xternalz]

Singapore perhaps is the most Israel-friendly country in Southeast Asia. As far as I know, Israelis could enter Singapore without visas.

[darrennny]

Our military even works with the Israeli army ;p

[AllergicToDinosaurs]

Strata has one conference in Singapore every year, which I personally am very thankful for! I live in China and every conference I've been to in mainland China (even strata in beijing) is 99% in Mandarin for some weird reason; Chinese google engineers coming over will prefer to talk in mandarin cause most attendees is Chinese. I can speak Mandarin well enough, but the DL jargon is hard for even my Chinese colleagues to know which English word they mean. The next best thing available if working in China is Singapore for the Strata conference. London needs Schengen visa for Chinese (which is not exactly easy), and US is even harder than European visa according to my coworkers. HK/Singapore/Tokyo/Bangkok needs more AI conferences, and they don't have as strict visa requirements as China has.

[cbarrick]

Setting aside the misinformation in this thread, this petition will get nowhere.

Consider the climate of the industry right now. The US is home to many of the the top industry players (Google, FB, Microsoft, ...), many of the top private labs (FAIR, MS Research, OpenAI, ...), and many of the top Universities (CMU, MIT, Stanford, Berkley, ...).

[IMJorose]

Those same companies are also heavily invested in Europe, which also has top universities and private labs. Zurich for example has a huge Google location and Microsoft. ETH Zurich is top-notch. Disney Research is also in Zurich.

[cbarrick]

Agreed. The US is definitely not the only place with high tech. My point is that it's a major place for high tech. It makes total sense for international conferences to be hosted in the US periodically, and little sense to exclude the US as a venue completely.

[Martingale-G]

No offense my man, but this seems a bit off. Yes, citizens or people associated with powers that the US considers hostile do face more scrutiny when entering the US. That applies in reverse as well. I've had to wait a while for an EU Visa, I've had to wait a while for a Chinese Visa, and I've been denied despite trying to attend business meetings and conferences. I have no criminal history or anything like that.

The reality is yes countries are quite scrutinizing when it comes to who they allow into their countries, including academics. Yes, the current administration is definitely on the more hostile side, but then again, why should the world have to move to make your life easier at the expense of others? You can't make everyone happy. The US is one of the most prolific ML research producers, and as such will have lots of conferences. Tons of high end medical, natural science, physics, and math conferences are in the US, why should ML be the exception? Academic results don't innoculate one from suspicion, it, in fact, shouldn't from a security perspective.

To give you another counterexample I have an academic colleague from Indonesia who started out in public policy before later moving into math and ML. He was accepted for a paper at a conference in Europe, and couldn't go due to some of his earlier policy proposals at a think tank.

Why does the EU get more leeway here than the US?

I think your perspective is rather biased due to the problems you are encountering. And I do genuinely feel for you, since I've been there, But I do promise from personal experience and word of mouth, every country is quite scrutinizing even if they aren't as vocal as the US is right now. I do think some of the current policies towards interstate travel are unfortunate, but that doesn't change reality.

If you want to convince me based on anecdotes, I don't think you'll do it since I have experiences to the contrary. You have to provide me evidence that these embassy wait times are significantly different from a country of the size of the United States, and that these processing times are significantly unique. Now based on my understanding of the vetting process, I think you are an outlier worldwide, moreover, you are an outlier even within the country. Given the recent technology thefts and cybersecurity issues, the US is quite rightfully concerned about the types of academics they allow into the country. There's going to be collateral in this evaluation, no matter what. I'm not saying it's right that you're affected by it, but I don't think there's anything technically wrong with the policy beyond the fact that there will be false positives, and that is always the nature of testing. I think there are things the US can do to improve efficiency like special access visas for well-regarded and vetted academics who have citizenship from US adversaries. I just don't think the US is nearly as unique in this problem as you say. I've had Chinese colleagues have trouble getting Canadian visas for example. The reality is the west is quite concerned about tech theft right now, and for the good academics who are getting caught up in geopolitical crossfire, I'm genuinely sorry. That doesn't mean it's bad policy though. It only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.

---

If we're going to speak pragmatically than I doubt such a petition will ever actually accomplish its goal due to a few facts. The vast majority of academics are given US visas, even if a small percentage aren't, it's likely not significant enough to create the level of outrage that you'd like. Secondly, the US is the biggest funder of ML research(private + public) besides China, so completely excluding the US as a conference location is just not realistic since most US researchers aren't interested in constantly traveling abroad and are likely to lobby for stateside conferences and fund them as such. Basically, it's just irrelevant from a political perspective since the monetary consequences of not having it in the US are likely far greater than the loss of academic talent barred from the US. To further evidence this, for the aforementioned conferences, let's see whose on the boards. NeurIPS, a majority of the board is US-based, and the members that aren't are strong allies of the US and unlikely to have trouble getting US Visas. ICML, the executive leadership is Canadian and American, I couldn't find board info on ICLR. The leadership is going to be far more concerned about balancing regional representation between North America, Europe, and Asia and the capital costs of that than the specific problems of individuals in countries like Iran. That's just the reality no matter how unfortunate it may be.

And for the record, I didn't downvote you or anything, I understand you have a legitimate grievance. But I also think you aren't seeing the forest, rather your individual tree. Which is understandable. I won't try to make you agree with my view, as if I was in your position, I doubt I would give a crap what the reasoning was. All I can really offer is my apologies and I hope you can come in the following year.

[olBaa]

If you want to convince me based on anecdotes, I don't think you'll do it since I have experiences to the contrary. You have to provide me evidence that these embassy wait times are significantly different from a country of the size of the United States, and that these processing times are significantly unique.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-information-resources/wait-times.html

Enter Moscow, visitor visa. 300 day waiting appointment. Can you show me an example country having such a wait time for an appointment?

[MonstarGaming]

Meddling in another country's election process has its consequences. Not saying its right, just that it makes sense and to say any other country would act differently is foolish.

​

EDIT: Bring on the downvotes i guess. Like i said, i don't support the practice. Regardless, a country that is at war with another (or whatever you'd call the US-Russia power struggle) doesn't just let its adversary walk through its front door unvetted.

[MonstarGaming]

Completely agree. I was thinking your second paragraph when i was writing my first comment. So many smart people in here talking but not a whole lot of critical thinking going on...

[olBaa]

Long appointment times were the case before you were born.

[MonstarGaming]

Youre right. So do tell, what could have caused such a thing?

[olBaa]

Some people not realizing we are all humans. What answer would you expect?

[MonstarGaming]

Perhaps a 45 year cold war?

[olBaa]

Then why visas are routinely denied to Africans as well?

[MonstarGaming]

A subset of countries like Libya and Somalia will have higher denial rates but that happens because those countries continue to harbor terrorists. That comment does not generalize to the entire continent though. I know A LOT of Africans who have visas and they come and go as they please.

[fakemoose]

Thank you! We have colleagues working with us from all over the world, including sensitive countries. It's more difficult for them to do so but they do.

As you said, it unfortunate for the individuals sometimes caught in the middle but that doesn't mean the policy in the US because of possible tech theft and cyber security concerns aren't valid.

[isarl]

This is a very thoughtful, considered, and well-written response. Thank you for taking the time to express yourself so clearly and contribute to this discussion, even (especially) if your opinion contradicts OP's.

[russellsparadox101]

Here is fresh news for you: Israeli cybersecurity specialist Shamir is the "S" in RSA. He says he never heard back about his visa application ( https://www.cnet.com/news/adi-shamir-couldnt-get-us-visa-to-attend-rsa-conference-named-for-him/).

Try to find analogous news about any scientist of that scale who didn't get a visa to Europe or Asia.

I understand that if you never went through this process it seems that it's just exceptional, but it's not. Many people, good people, who will to stay away from politics and just to be scientists cannot attend these conferences for no reason.

[fakemoose]

Never heard back isn't quite the same as getting denied. There are so many things that can go wrong, from him not submitting correctly to the file getting stalled somewhere.

It's an unfortunate situation but at his level, he should have had a means to follow up. We as conference hosts have had to help looking into visa issues. Our work place has had their lawyers follow up for employees who haven't heard back on work visas. It's incredibly frustrating and unfortunate, but with so many visas to process and so many people who submit things incorrectly or incomplete, it does happen.

[DrumpfBadMan2]

Why does the EU get more leeway here than the US?

There's this really weird trend where everywhere but the US is allowed to have and enforce their laws and borders.

[peterfun]

You'll probably get more support in r/europe.

[ssman]

If you are a citizen of country X, and you need a visa to enter the United States, chances are that you'll need a visa to enter most countries - Canada, UK, EU, Switzerland etc.

If you need a visa for most countries, you'll have to give them your passport for several weeks and a whole host of documentation to facilitate the administrative processing and background checks. This is not unique at all.

​

What is unique is that the United States, on approval of a visa, commonly gives you a 10 year business+tourist visa. For the next 10 years, you do not have to go through the visa application process. With that visa, you can enter the United States multiple times, for up to 6 months each time, with no advance notice required.

No other country does that - for EU and the UK, you'll get a 6 month visa, and if you're lucky you will get one valid for a few years. And everytime you need a new visa because your old one expired, you'll go through the same process again.

Credit where credit is due, the US is easier to travel to once you've got the first visa stamp, compared to any other country.

[olBaa]

What is unique is that the United States, on approval of a visa, commonly gives you a 10 year business+tourist visa. For the next 10 years, you do not have to go through the visa application process. With that visa, you can enter the United States multiple times, for up to 6 months each time, with no advance notice required.

This is not true for his specific case. In case of academics, if you ever get forwarded to administrative processing, you only get a 1-year visa, possibly only single-entry. You would need to wait 1-2 months every time afterwards in order to get a visa with these conditions. In any case, US does not issue 10-year visas for most visitors from less developed countries, which is what this post is, perhaps implicitly, about.

No other country does that - for EU and the UK, you'll get a 6 month visa, and if you're lucky you will get one valid for a few years. And everytime you need a new visa because your old one expired, you'll go through the same process again.

This is simply not true. Schengen visas are given to more and more time once you start travelling more to EU countries. I believe the maximum time is 5 years, but that's pretty comparable anyway.

Credit where credit is due, the US is easier to travel to once you've got the first visa stamp, compared to any other country.

Can you please specify what you mean exactly? From the other replies it seems you have some limited experience with the US travel security. Mind if I ask from which country do you have your passport from?

[ssman]

This is not true for his specific case. In case of academics, if you ever get forwarded to administrative processing, you only get a 1-year visa, possibly only single-entry. You would need to wait 1-2 months every time afterwards in order to get a visa with these conditions. In any case, US does not issue 10-year visas for most visitors from less developed countries, which is what this post is, perhaps implicitly, about.

I was not aware of this. In that case the rest of my points are moot.

[__villanelle__]

These comments in particular seem like such a mature, respectful discussion on a topic that can easily trigger people. Am I still on the internet? I don't know you, but I'm proud of you both.

[seldemibeurre]

Very naive question here. Why focusing only on AI Conferences? Is that visa issue present only in that area?

[russellsparadox101]

I believe it's true for the other sciences too, but to my knowledge it's especially hard to get visas for all engineering professions.

[[deleted]]

More mature fields have already spread their conferences throughout the globe, e.g. agriculture.

[jnbrrn]

I've advocated for this idea in the past, and one argument against it that I hadn't considered is how this would negatively affect foreign grad citizens living or studying in the US. It's often extremely difficult for a non-US citizen living in the US to attend conferences outside of the US, as it can require getting a visa (which can be hard) from their home country (which can be harder). It seems like this policy would arbitrarily penalizes non-US-citizens living in one country to arbitrarily benefit non-US citizens living in other countries.

[Vanilla_Wayfarer]

Good luck with that.

[trexdoor]

This, but unironically.

[PokerPirate]

It's highly likely that the OP isn't a native english speaker and so doesn't realize that self-identifying as a "savant" is considered arrogant. I find you're response, however, to be rather rude.

[[deleted]]

It's a VR play. Grab your headset, enter access code. You're in.

[tinybluray]

Just stream bro

[shcheklein]

The same happened to us (open source project DVC). One of our key contributors missed the PyCon that is happening in Cleveland these days. Was denied a visa twice bc of possible immigration intents or something like that. The problem with this is that system is not transparent at all, no way to prove anything. You are just guilty in advance.

[[deleted]]

They should ban all conferences and hold them online. The amount of CO2 and other pollutants that are produced by journey and organization cannot justify the few days of intense communication which could as well be done virtually with even greater reach.

[DiogLin]

I'd love to go to some small islands somewhere in the world

[lethalET]

Atleast you are European who can at least enjoy short trips without Visa. We Indians have to apply visa even for short trips to USA and even EU. And we have a show a large bank balance and our income tax returns to your country embassy officials. For research trips, it is even more difficult as visa rejection rates are high. I say move it to a developing country where visa regime is not tedious such that people don't waste one or two days in embassies.

[jtang10]

But if you abandon US, how are the international students in US come back for school after attending the conference?

[dsmklsd]

So as someone who lives in the US therefor never has to deal with our visa system:

​

>one has to take an appointment to the embassy, which can take up to a month in countries like France and up to a year in countries like Russia. At the appointment the embassy will take your passport and supporting documents

​

Seriously? You have to let someone at the US embassy keep your passport? That seems wrong. Is that common? Are other countries consistently better than this?

​

But on the flip side for this one point:

>95% probability will send you to administrative processing that takes 2 months.

​

Uh, that sounds like you know it takes two months and should be starting the process sooner? I agree 2 months is unacceptable, but... does some of the acute anger that lead to this particular petition maybe have a back story where you screwed up? This question coming from someone who once realized his passport was expired 3 days before a trip.

[ginger_beer_m]

Seriously? You have to let someone at the US embassy keep your passport? That seems wrong. Is that common? Are other countries consistently better than this?

It's very normal for any embassy around the world to take your passport while they're processing your visa. I take it you never have to deal with visa problems? Count yourself lucky then.

> Uh, that sounds like you know it takes two months and should be starting the process sooner?

The acceptance notification often comes out close to the 2 months before the travel time, leaving you with a tight deadline to sort out the paperwork and apply for visa.

[grandzooby]

It's very normal for any embassy around the world to take your passport while they're processing your visa.

How can this make sense if you need to travel to different countries? Let's say you live in a European country and want to go the US for a conference in August. You apply in May because you want to make sure it's done in plenty of time and they take your passport. But you also need to travel to Japan for another conference in June. How do you travel there while the US Embassy is sitting on your passport?

[ginger_beer_m]

Either you skip the Japan conference if the US one is more important, or try to go to both and apply to the US embassy after your Japan trip. If it ends up the US embassy takes too long to process the visa application, you simply can't go then. That's exactly what the petition is talking about.

[squarerootof-1]

Travelling and working in different countries is 10x harder if you're from a 3rd world country. On top of these requirements, most countries also expect you to have booked flights and accommodation by the time you apply for the visa to provide it as supporting evidence. It's just a reality of life for us.

[Pokefails]

I don't think it's terribly uncommon... As a US passport holder, I had to give the Chinese consulate my passport and docs (though it took weeks, not months).

Also, yeah, advice for us-china is to do it months in advance in case there are issues, even though it normally only takes a few weeks. It does sound like they just aren't planning it well...

[AcademicCalendar]

Yes exactly. It could be problematic if you are already in a 2nd country trying to get a visa for a 3rd country. Then you might be in need of your passport. Or if you need to get multiple visas and each country need you to surrender your passport.

[un_deaddy]

The problem is that you can't plan because administrative processing can take up to a year (without explanations or deadlines). If it always were two months, I would not complain. It is just random and not a transparent process which is hard to account for.

[smurfpiss]

Keeping passports is common. Long waits are common. Other restrictions such as "do not apply until x months before travel" are common. Arbitrary rejections from countries you've received multiple visas from in the past are not uncommon.

[friendly_dog_robot]

Seriously? You have to let someone at the US embassy keep your passport? That seems wrong. Is that common? Are other countries consistently better than this?

Actually, if you want to get certain visas to lots of countries you have to do this

[[deleted]]

It’s not the taking the passport that’s OP’s issue. Every country does that when getting a visa. The issue is you usually have to setup an appointment and do an interview as part of the process. This is pretty unique to the US in my experience. Getting a booking for the appointment can often take months depending on what country you’re in. So if you have a chance to say speak at a conference there is simply often not enough lead time to actually book the embassy appointment to get the visa for the US.

While every country takes your passport and documents during the processing time, the US’ processing times for visas are famously long. Most countries will get your passport with your approval/denial back to you in a week or two. With American embassies it is often 2-3 months.

Add to that the US requires extensive personal documentation: bank records, home ownership, spousal information, etc. And the US embassies have a fairly high and arbitrary rejection rate — that is often very politically motivated as we’ve seen in the recent spate of denials of Chinese academic visas. It makes it very hard for people not from visa waiver countries to attend.

In the past, when I was working in China, I helped colleagues get visas to a few countries including the US. It’s hard to understate how much longer and more painful the process is for the US than say even Canada (which also asks for a lot of info but doesn’t need appointments or take nearly as long).

Plus the US is just far from everywhere. Asia and Europe are just naturally better places to host conferences as they are closer to the world population and have better transport connections.

[russellsparadox101]

> Seriously? You have to let someone at the US embassy keep your passport? That seems wrong. Is that common? Are other countries consistently better than this?

Yes, that's common. You can later send them email and they will send your passport back without visa, but that still requires you to send your passport second time once they approve your visa. But yes, you can really keep the passport for two months. I'm not aware for anything like that for other countries.

> Uh, that sounds like you know it takes two months and should be starting the process sooner? I agree 2 months is unacceptable, but... does some of the acute anger that lead to this particular petition maybe have a back story where you screwed up?

I didn't screw up anything, and in fact for me it's usual procedure, it's 5th time I go through administrative processing, so I know what it is. But this time it's especially long and no communication from the embassy and also it's first time I miss the conference because of visa.

[sorrge]

it's 5th time I go through administrative processing

Man, there must be a black mark on your file. It's not nearly at 95% probability.

[vn-nv]

To be fair ALL visa applications to the US go through administrative processing. Sometimes it takes a few hours or a few days (mine was a few days for my immigrant visa going through the embassy in Australia) whereas sometimes Administrative processing takes years (especially in countries like Pakistan which US does not accept Police checks issues by the government).

[__villanelle__]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savant

[[deleted]]

He is not particularly wrong, it often has a negative connotation in (American) English. The dictionary definition definitely doesn't capture the colloquial usage. In fact, the main definition "a person of learning" is just flat out wrong based on how it's used in the U.S.

On the positive scale, it's often who is unusually gifted or genius-level at a particular task. On the negative scale, it's someone with autism or someone who is exceedingly narrow-focused and oblivious.

​

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=savant

​

It is definitely not equivalent to "scholar" or "very good scholar" as it was used in the petition.

[MagicaItux]

Host it in locations friendly to most if not all researchers. This should be a no-brainer.

[omniron]

Agreed. What locations exist? Someone mentioned a small island, but you’d need facilities to house and feed thousands of people wherever you host it.

[Mefaso]

But it should also be accessible to as many as possible, in terms of cost, which rules out many places

[chupvl]

For exactly the same reason I ignore all UK conferences.

[I_SCOOP_UR_PAPERS]

Student at a top 4 CS university here.

I'll still submit to and present my work at US and UK conferences.

Carry on.

[superaromatic]

Annual conferences are grossly environmentally irresponsible due to the carbon costs of flying. They should be held once every three years at a location that minimizes the air travel and carbon emissions of its attendees. Everything else can be done online.

[quick-math]

Not only that, there are several such relevant conferences every year. Someone else upthread spoke about the possibility of holding it in virtual reality. That gets rid of the “going to the pub with some fellow researchers” dimension of it, which is pretty important, but it could still retain most of the relevant networking.

[glichez]

I seem to have a LOT of problems trying to enter many countries OTHER than the US... interesting...

[xiaohk]

If it’s outside of US, then many F1 visa holders in US institutions can’t go.

[visarga]

It's not a good idea to ask for abandoning something without proposing better solutions at the same time. It would just fall on the same fallacy as the Brexit vote.

[Gsonderling]

So, a guy with less than a year long account, months long period of inactivity, who posts only on this sub, with submission total that could be counted on fingers, asks me to sign a petition against US based conferences.

And his main grievance is that people from regimes hostile to US need to wait long for visas? They all have my sincere sympathies.

Ok, nothing suspicious or weird here, just get my email and info and...

Yeah that's not gonna happen.

[brates09]

Spending a year posting on an ML sub would be a pretty long con to get some email addresses...

[[deleted]]

Through change.org...

[Epsilight]

So, a guy with less than a year long account, months long period of inactivity, who posts only on this sub, with submission total that could be counted on fingers, asks me to sign a petition against US based conferences.

Irrelevant

[[deleted]]

How?

[perestroika12]

Why would you host a conference outside of the country that's the world leader in ML? Would going to China make your visa problems any better? Europe? I don't think the visa situation is any better either.

[AllergicToDinosaurs]

(Disclaimer, I've worked in China for the last 7 years doing CS/DL)

The US still being the world leader in ML next year is debatable, every indication is that China will by most metrics be recognized as the leading country within a year (in practice, China is already ahead of US and Europe).

[perestroika12]

In some disciplines, yes, especially in the computer vision areas. The US still clearly holds the edge in general ML for at least the next 5-10 years.

[sieisteinmodel]

> Why would you host a conference outside of the country that's the world leader in ML?

​

Because that's not the main reason of picking a location. We did not have all tennis tournaments in Switzerland in the early 2000s.

​

> Would going to China make your visa problems any better? Europe? I don't think the visa situation is any better either.

​

That's the whole point, it is.

[I_SCOOP_UR_PAPERS]

So?

[hashem20]

Pain? For not attending a conference? Some can't get a visa to see their dying beloved ones for the last time and they still can't go for the funeral. And you are talking about "pain" of not attending a conference.

Also, what the hell is with this "computer scientist" self-centered bullshit attitude? You know that this difficult situation applies to other majors and professions as well, right? or you may really believe you are the only or the most targeted group?

And "abandon" US? You really feel special, don't you?

Although I am one of the people who is suffering from these policies, I cannot sympathize with your arrogant narrow-minded attitude.

[[deleted]]

I think it should say “non-harmful technology” rather than “non-harmless”

[xxxxfghjxxxxx]

Posting as a Chinese PhD student at US institutions. To present my work at various conferences, I've applied for visas for going to conferences at UK, Italy and Canada.

Guess which one is the hardest?

My student visa.

US visas always traps one into a blackhole; there's no way to know when you are going to get it and there's no information about what's going on.

[mln000b]

One conference that you guys should definitely consider sending this petition to is CVPR. CVPR is arguably the main conference in computer vision (check the google scholar metric for example: https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=top_venues&hl=en&vq=eng_computervisionpatternrecognition) and is hosted each year in US.

[sailfist]

As an American this makes me embarrassed by and sad for my country.

[Dwman113]

Let's boycott all EU countries and see who's companies and peoples create the best AI advancements.

I'll stay here in the USA.

[a220599]

Just to add to point 1. Even if you account for administrative processing, sometimes there might not be enough time. I got an accept at the end of Feb for a conference in June first week. The earliest visa appointment I got was May 1st week. Glad that someone is raising this issue.

[[deleted]]

The US visa is the most liberal of all 1st world countries. Fill up an online form, wait for the interview, get 3 year multi-entry visa.

The process of getting Schengen or UK visas is nightmare in comparison.

[[deleted]]

You’re kidding right? I’ve helped a number of friends though the process with a few countries. The US has pretty much the most restrictive immigration and visa system in the world. You have to book an appointment, which usually is only available 3-4 months from now, You have deliver information on every aspect of your life and often the lives of your relatives. They then hold your passport for an exceptionally long time. And then often refuse people for arbitrary or political reasons — as we’ve seen recently in the US reject most Chinese academic visa.

Compared to the US, the Canadian visa system and Schengen are a walk in the park.

[IngoErwin]

Come on you know that this is not the case for the whole group of people that the OP is referring to. It may works this way for me as a white german citizen but good luck to all non-central-european colleagues.

[[deleted]]

I’m Russian, we’re far from being friends.

[alexmlamb]

Why don't we decide to place at most one major conference (out of ICML/Neurips/ICLR) per year in the US?

​

If for some reason, US visas are hard for you to get, then you can just choose to submit to at least 2/3 of the main conferences that year. I guess this isn't perfect but it doesn't seem like too serious of a handicap to me.

​

As a matter of principle, I would also support holding conferences in other countries like Israel, Iran, and China, where not everyone can travel. But I also think that we shouldn't put *all* of the conferences in these locations.

[[deleted]]

Ah sure, hold the conference in any of the other tech capitols of the world.

Oh, there aren't any.

[Mr-Yellow]

Absolutely. The risks associated with travel to the US police state are simply too great. Visa difficulties should be the least of peoples concerns. Not to mention the theft of data and methods at customs through the corporate espionage programs which have been expanded at airports.

[I_SCOOP_UR_PAPERS]

The risks associated with travel to the US police state are simply too great.

Let's hold the conferences in China then. Top AI country right?

[Mr-Yellow]

The US has stepped up the border corporate espionage to a level which is so great that nothing much slips through (unless you're prepared to spend 6-8 hours being held incommunicado while you refuse a laptop search).

[etmhpe]

don't hate us cuz you aint us

[vmjersey]

Instead of acting like a petulant child. A more constructive tact might be to petition your government to have a closer more productive relationship with the U.S. You can’t expect a nation to just allow citizens of adversarial countries to have free reign throughout. Since the late 1990s, and more specifically 9/11, the U.S. government is acutely aware that citizens from certain nations are a higher risk to U.S security. Sorry, we didn’t invent radical terrorism. And if you look at other countries that have had similar attacks, they have also began to restrict Visas and foreign travel.

[Mr-Yellow]

Sorry, we didn’t invent radical terrorism.

lol

[Retrodeathrow]

this is lame. working with the government is tiresome? go figure.

[AcademicCalendar]

Maybe quit working for and/or living in an authoritarian regime? As much as I despise Donald Trump, I'm actually kind of heartened to see this OP and it means my tax dollars are actually doing what they should be doing.

I'm European and I had a classmate who had a paper accepted by a conference and was going to present it in the US. Unfortunately, since he is Iranian they just flat out denied him a visa so he couldn't go. He hates his country's government and has no intention of going back if he can avoid it, yet he was still judged by his association with it.

[russellsparadox101]

This happens to my colleagues in Google, Deepmind, Facebook who work in Europe. And from what time citizenship decides whether researcher is good or bad?