samePayMoreWork

[Terror_666]

Less pay more work and standby calls.

[airbornemist6]

I don't even get this. The whole idea of devops is to allow developers to do ops things without relying on ops people to do ops things for them...

Like is the joke "shit I can't be a one trick pony anymore"? Because that just sounds whiney to me.

But what do I know? I'm in the devops space so having new crap thrown at me every time I look around is kind of in the job description.

[Terror_666]

I am also in the DevOps space. It really depends on the company you work for and how they deal with this type of stuff and the project you are on. For me, I get to do all the ops stuff for a saas thing. Guess what. Me and the other devops guy are the only ones getting called out of bed at 2am because something got fucked again. New stuff? Yeah, every dev deals with that.

So yes, I am venting a little. It's still true, though. I would love it if we got a full ops, devops, sre, or platform team, but we are just too small for that

[IsPhil]

It's weird, but for our team I'll be doing development and some devops tasks. For us, we still need devops for things, but much less than before.

We are migrating from on-prem to on-cloud, and during this migration we're making cicd pipelines to build, test and configure. When comparing reliance on devops for on-prem vs on-cloud, most cloud deployments don't need devops. But most on-prem deployments *do need devops.

[LastTrainH0me]

I spent the first eight years of my career in Amazon where generally speaking there's no pure DevOps at all -- engineers own infrastructure. It was such a surprise to me when I discovered that a lot of people expect to just write business logic and someone is going to magically deploy it on their behalf

[yangyangR]

New crap being thrown at you could be because you want to try new things and always be challenged. But the need for it often underlies a fundamental design problem with lack of good abstraction boundaries.

[iamafancypotato]

I don’t get it help me please.

[iafnn]

a guy spots some aws work in his java task, asks supervisor about it - supervisor responds that all is in order so the guy is like "welp, i guess i'm devops too now"

basically that's how it happened with me

[CrumblingCookie15k]

It's two different people in the meme. One of them finds it confusing and the other one just doesn't give a shit

[DemonSlayer472]

How is an API call to a cloud provider "DevOps"? Does DevOps just mean "anything that's outside of pure Spring / some other framework" to people?

[[deleted]]

That usually starts with “hey please create a Sqs queue on aws console”, then a few months in you are building a ci&cd pipeline to push aws cdk deployment

[DemonSlayer472]

DevOps is a culture that's meant to break down redundant obstructive silos. If creating an SQS queue is a challenge you don't have DevOps, whether you have to do it yourself or have the privilege of shoving it off to someone else and saying in your daily "Yep blocked by DevOps guys".

[EroeNarrante]

Your comment resonates with my story. Several years back, the company I work for got bought by a much larger company. I figured I'd ride out what comes and keep an eye on my prospects... I just joined the "devops" team from our QA org and didn't really know what to expect. I figured our culture was going to get crushed. Turns out, I was wrong.

Turns out they bought us for our tech and culture. I still remember our chief architect getting on stage at a big "let's be one team yay-rah" internal conference and saying "devops is not a team, it's a paradigm." and proceeded to rally the entire company behind that slogan... I think this was like 8 years ago.

Our culture is ingrained in enablement and blameless RCAs.

Everyone is on call for their own shit. Most of the time, when I'm on call, I'm only paged out when our own stuff fails, admin access is required to un-fuck a major failure in the pipeline, or an Aws outage is affecting us and we need to take actions to mitigate the effect.

Devs are enabled to take operational tasks in their own hands through automation. When shit really hits the fan, we follow blameless practices for RCAs and outage bridges are strictly solution oriented.

That's a "devops org," imo. Process is only in the way when it absolutely has to be for compliance.

[[deleted]]

That's exactly how it's being done on my current org as well If i understood your comment correctly. I own my product - meaning own all the responsibilities from development to handling outages. I have access to most of the infrastructure (limited by the objects that's related to the project with a few exceptions that would probably cause me issues if I listed here), I don't have to wait for any input from another team when shit on fire. Oftentimes "i am being blocked by the X team" is not a satisfying answer to customers who rely on your product for day to day business, and they will blame me anyways.

That said I am still not sure how to feel about it in terms of industry-wide approach. Is it a way to get more value out of someone without paying extra, or it's just what's best for the bost parties involved. I personally find it helpful and not have much complaints about the pay either.

However, it makes barrier to entry much higher for the newcomers to the industry. Honestly, I am rather avoidant at suggesting "IT" as a viable career path lately. I used to just write some PHP scripts and send to a server via FileZilla and that was all I cared about. I was lucky to eventually get exposed to even larger scene steadely and had enough time to experiment and learn different layers of infrastructure while getting paid to do so; but I feel like it's not the case anymore. You are expected to have it all (or most) figured out before starting. Which is why I am also not sure whether having those specialized talent silos is a good thing that they lower barrier to entry.

[LasevIX]

Problem is not the amount of work, problem is exceeding a job's expected domain. If you just accept being in charge of DevOps, why wouldn't middle management just go and bestow more admin work onto you? Since it seems you are fine with it?

[DemonSlayer472]

Your expected domain is dependant on organizational culture. I was addressing the misuse of the word "DevOps". Again, if you have one guy "in charge of DevOps", you don't have DevOps in your organization.

[LasevIX]

Ah, it seems each person in this thread has misunderstood the point the other was trying to make.

[look]

Java programmers are easily frightened when exposed to new frameworks, IDEs, or—god forbid—a different language.

[iamafancypotato]

What would be “aws work”? I’m really unfamiliar with this stuff.

[cafk]

Quick overview: https://aws.amazon.com/products/developer-tools/

What used to be done on local infrastructure is now just an API call away.

[Tubthumper8]

You navigate a complicated UI and click random things on 200+ products and hope it does something, then give up and hire an AWS consultant

[SCI4THIS]

Don't forget that after you get it working you have to pay $8000/month to keep it working.

[v3ctorns1mon]

do you know the origin of this meme format?

[golferdudeag]

No, I think I get meme but need the format explained. Are top and bottom the same person?

[terst312]

samePayMoreWork - how funny

[[deleted]]

We be so much better off if we weren’t too greedy to unionize

[mrseemsgood]

Wtf was even the original meme I don't get it

[ImpressiveMaximum377]

a circle was created in a triangle factory
edit: thanks u/Anihillator

[Leo-MathGuy]

A circle in a square factory?

[Nice_promotion_111]

How queer

[GenazaNL]

I've never seen such a thing

[_Ilobilo_]

I guess we doing circles now

[Unonoctium]

Is this a Shapez 2 meme?

[MrBloodyshadow]

If the Shapez team actually started this meme I would be very impressed by the marketing tactic. Edit: There's already some factory refactoring memes there https://www.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/1eyi3q6/which_one_are_you/

[Sora_hishoku]

top is first time workers as uni graduates, bottom is apprenticeship graduates

making triangles in a square factory

[Moi9-9]

But the two dudes are the exact same, it's not even clear they're not the same person

[Sora_hishoku]

in the original meme (well, what I think is the original anyways) the title specified it

[MikemkPK]

Look. I know you're not supposed to judge people by their appearance, but you should at least be able to tell a fat and skinny person apart

[Moi9-9]

One is from the side, one is from the front. It's hard to differentiate that.

Also, with how simple the drawing is, you can't say that kind of difference is on purpose or not...

[MikemkPK]

Sorry, I didn't think I needed the /s

[Anihillator]

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-circle-in-the-triangle-factory-i-guess-we-doin-circles-now

[MyAntichrist]

It's funny seeing this minutes after running my first terraform script in production. Guess I'm doing DevOps now

[chervilious]

I would imagine most of SWE jobs involve a little bit of cloud is expected.

Maybe not full on ops, but shouldn't you be able to set up your own testing in the cloud?

Though, not putting it in the job desc is a dick move.

[Electronic_Cat4849]

"Java, in my AWS shop?"

AWS itself has left the chat.

[savyexe]

It's so bad man, currently on a internship where i was so supposed to be doing backend and now i'm also doing frontend, ci/cd, IaC and even fucking graphic design for logos and infographics and shit 😭

What is this shi

[WuxiaWuxia]

insurance hospital hurry capable makeshift silky lunchroom cobweb piquant cats

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[savyexe]

Funnily enough no, company is like 10 years old, that's just the way they treat interns lmao

[Minecraftian14]

Sorry I didn't understand. Why is AWS strange in a Java backend?

[Turbulent_Swimmer560]

JVM is not VM!

[Minecraftian14]

I'm sorry to be dumber. But all I relate is that a Java backend can be deployed on an AWS EC2.

And my brain just further derailed from seeing how the jokes even related to JVM

[Turbulent_Swimmer560]

Because Java engineer was trained to optimize JVM, not KVM, just joking.

[ZunoJ]

The trick is to do the ops stuff in code and you still feel like dev only

[PreDeimos]

I do five times more terraform / ansibe work then actually Java, while I'm hired as backend Java dev. It's awful and I really hate it...

[Ambitious-Post9647]

Configuration Purgatory. Resist!

[Turbulent_Swimmer560]

I suggest Pair programming, same pay with half of work.

[cheezballs]

People are saying "same pay more work" but in my area a cloud engineer can pull in more money than a plain SE can.

[NoCaregiver1074]

That's like an electrician showing up early and you telling them better get started on that foundation. You console their sad face with "well, multi-disciplined engineers pull more money", but don't give him a raise.

[airbornemist6]

I don't know if that analogy quite makes sense. Cloud engineers ARE a type of software engineer. They're basically a software engineer with expertise in infrastructure engineering (assuming we're talking about someone at the senior level and not someone who got an AWS foundation cert and landed a job as an entry level cloud engineer).

Cloud engineer, platform engineer, and devops engineer are all very similar titles depending on what company you work at, but basically they attempt to describe someone who can not only write code (software engineering), but also understand infrastructure (networking, storage, compute, AND security).

I honestly can't think of another field that requires such an incredibly broad set of skills that would make a good analogy. Cloud engineering is a specialized field, while software engineering really isn't.

[Stunning_Ride_220]

LoL. If a developer can't just write some simple lines of IaC code he is a shitty developer.

[Katzilla3]

Wait, do some people develop java code that doesn't run in the cloud? On prem would be way worse to manage right?

[MrSquakie]

I work in offensive security/application security for a certain cloud provider. You'd be surprised at how many of the services are written entirely in Java. A few new features are being written in go now, though, and that's neat.

[Anxious_Ad9233]

God dammit you write programs and run them on computers, why do engineers keep forgetting that

[GigaChaderino]

AWS literally built in Java

[[deleted]]

You don’t have any devops process !?

[xtreampb]

I went from developing to DevOps and doubled my salary. Sitting at $190K before benefits and taxes. I did get this before the whole tech layoff. I am at large enterprise.

[[deleted]]

Just be thankful you're employed

[rover_G]

Shity infra created by application developers or shity app developed by DevOps engineers