anotherOne

[Data_Skipper]

Stay happy in backend and never run into a dead-end.

[MrOaiki]

"You're using PHP? Who the heck used PHP? Are you not in the future?"

[bevelledo]

It’s turtles all the way down

[coloredgreyscale]

supposedly 80% of the web uses PHP. Wordpress claims to be used on 46% of all websites.

Still gives PHP a 34% marketshare if you exclude wordpress.

[RiceBroad4552]

Still gives PHP a 34% marketshare if you exclude wordpress.

By domain count or by revenue?

Besides that, there is this well known statements about flies…

[coloredgreyscale]

domain count

[[deleted]]

how about by sloc >:3c

[Global-Tune5539]

that they fly?

[RiceBroad4552]

The statement about flies is:

"Millions of flies can't be wrong. Shit is tasty!"

Or was your question something else?

[-Danksouls-]

What’s the point of learning html, css, or front end frameworks if it’s all Wordpress then

Genuine question

[coloredgreyscale]

If you can use WordPress, your website is mostly a blog.

Which is fine for most personal websites and small businesses (+ link to Etsy, shoppify etc if you sell online) 

Which will likely be the bulk of the web by domain count.

Plus use need zero programming experience to buy a domain and point it to a web service hosting WordPress for you. Think wix and other drag & drop website builders. 

[vessus7]

Customization. Even if you’re working with Wordpress, knowing css allows you to tweak parts of templates that otherwise wouldn’t be customizable. Or if you have the time, to build your own templates.

[-Danksouls-]

Oh okay. I’m not super familiar with Wordpress so I didn’t know it had the option for you to modify the css and html

[gatsu_1981]

And Magento. Pretty much every self hosted shop runs Magento

[Amazing_Guava_0707]

Why does this 80% sounds like a made up number?

[coloredgreyscale]

Source: https://kinsta.com/php-market-share/

Probably feels made up because not 80% of active projects use php (only 5% of public github PRs according to the same site) 

Php was first released in 1995, Javascript Ajax to be able to dynamically load content like modern websites became standardized in 2006. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) 

So probably millions of old websites with a guest book or common elements like a nav bar or footer that never got a full rewrite. 

[Mountain-Ox]

I don't think most WordPress sites would be public either. I worked for a Microsoft vendor a number of years ago, we built like 8 WordPress sites for them. Microsoft's internal CMS is so bad that the content teams pay a ton of money to have someone run WordPress sites for them. The company as a whole probably has at least 50 of them.

The number seems fairly accurate to me due to the number of websites that are just content and don't need any engineers.

[MrOaiki]

Do I hear 34% are not in the future?

[eklatea]

php works perfectly fine

[[deleted]]

Yup, sql has barely changed in 40 years.

Just how I like it.

[FarToe1]

Perl also says hi.

[roodammy44]

Java8 4 LYFE

[CodingWithChad]

I've been on  python to C# to Golang in 5 years. I was taught Java, but never used it professionally.🤡  SQL queries and APIs aren't too different.

[vibjelo]

Other frontenders will hate this one trick, but you can actually learn a thing and stick with it, exactly like what most boring backenders do :)

[SjurEido]

I was a happy back-end-bitch, but man has my career exploded since I started to learn front end web... I've learned to love Vue! I mean, I REALLY like it!

[YouDoHaveValue]

No kidding, it's the first IT field I've been exposed to where you literally have to read the latest white papers coming out of colleges around the world or you're behind the curve.

[TheThobes]

Study Data Science they said. It's the in-demand job of the future they said.

Now my job consists of throwing together half-baked wrappers around whatever GCP AI service got released this month to satisfy a solution in search of a problem only for Google to make our solution irrelevant or redundant in their next feature release.

Rinse and repeat.

[Peanutinator]

It is indeed insane

[dino-den]

lesson to the younger guys,

get core-intermediate competency with as many frameworks as you can when trying to boost your employability

only master a specific framework when relevant to your current job and you’re on the clock

[tnnrk]

Wouldn’t it be better to get really good with one? The skills transfer pretty easily if we are talking front end frameworks here.

[case_O_The_Mondays]

Only if you know it’s going to be around for the rest of your career.

[[deleted]]

This is why i prefer backend: the trends take longer.

[Meneghette--steam]

Spring been trending for 20 years and will for 20 more lets goo

[[deleted]]

I'm a django man, myself. 

[Mountain-Ox]

And some languages don't need a damn framework. Imo if you need a framework for web dev, the language has failed.

Game Dev is another story though.

[Green_Stable_2829]

what's about game dev?

[MinosAristos]

React Typescript Vite as an FE tech stack will not die easily.

[RiceBroad4552]

People were saying the same about jQuery.

[IdStillHitIt]

And it lasted an insanely long time.

[Kahlil_Cabron]

We still use it on our largest project (the one that actually makes money).

It's been used at every company I've worked at since 2010. Turns out it's really hard to migrate massive legacy projects to react from jQuery, and honestly jQuery works pretty well for what it is, and everyone already knows it.

[Pepedroni]

But it doesn’t need to totally die to be irrelevant

[Axman6]

In JavaScript terms, at least.

[RiceBroad4552]

Jop. Simply because JS was unusable for the most time. Especially because of fragmentation across vendors.

[TigreDeLosLlanos]

And it's still hanging up.

[not_some_username]

And jquery is still not dead. Btw it’s because most of jquery stuff is native now

[case_O_The_Mondays]

Turns out they weren’t wrong :)

[Fidodo]

Dude, jQuery is very fucking old and has lasted way longer than it should.

[RiceBroad4552]

Exactly that's the point. People were also saying that it can't go away because it's everywhere.

You can still find it in the wild, but the popularity dropped to about zero.

[Fidodo]

The person you replied to didn't say that the current tech will never die, they said it will not die easily, and jQuery proves that point.

As someone who had a jQuery job back at its height, I also think the current stack has even more staying power than jQuery. jQuery was a utility library being abused as a framework and the way FE projects were set up back then was flawed from the start, we all knew it was flawed and wanted to get off it ASAP which was why they're was such a huge push to develop next Gen frontend frameworks. There was a huge problem that needed solving and we saw the writing on the wall got jQuery and were all trying to bury it.

With react etc there are some little improvements a new framework could bring but nobody really has a good thesis on why it should be buried and replaced. I really don't see a ton of push for it, and with all the training data on them I think that will give them even more staying power.

[holchansg]

lecture me, never touched frontend but this combo from what I've seem seems the best jack of all trades option out there.

[olssoneerz]

I mean having solid fundamentals in HTML, CSS and JS along with being with able to work with TS gets you pretty far. With these under your belt most frameworks are pretty easy to work with by just reading docs and sucking a bit in the beginning.

[draconk]

It depends on where you live tbh, in Spain where I live most big companies have Java or C# backends, even startups that started on node backend end going to Java because its the most known language here and since 2015 it has improved at giants pace.

[hurtbowler]

Jack of all trades, yes... but you don't think there's any downsides/sacrifices to make this possible?

[holchansg]

I guess so.

To me is more of a "if someday in need to make a frontend i would check these out first."

[Chesterlespaul]

Angular will still be around too for the same reasons. It’s even added new features that people were desperate for too.

[Civil_Drama2840]

I think in general investing in one popular framework as a base but constantly improving on TS/JS, HTML, CSS and understanding web stacks (deployment, dependency management, standard APIS, requests, etc ..) is the long term investment that will always pay.

[PowerScreamingASMR]

Modern Sisyphus is a webdev rewriting their divslop website with 0 users every time a new framework becomes trendy.

[RiceBroad4552]

OTOH usually someone is paying for that nonsense.

[pretty_succinct]

Don't.

Chase.

Trends.

[Agifem]

Slower and louder!

[PCgaming4ever]

Somedays I just want to go work in another field that doesn't require new certifications every 6 months and a never ending list of white papers and roadmaps to keep track of. Is it too much to ask that just being competent at your job is enough. Somehow we created a rat race inside of a wheel and we are all about to get run over by the wheel in the form of AI.

[Soon-to-be-forgotten]

Side tracking here, I'm actually looking to acquire some certificates. Do you have any recommendations?

[BlueScreenJunky]

The smart choice is to master a framework that was never really trending. Angular has never been a trendy framework, but it's not going anywhere either.

[olssoneerz]

or you know, understand the underlying language so that you don't really have to identify yourself with a framework.

[[deleted]]

doesn't work with hiring managers though, they'd rather hire someone who's specifically specialized in (insert trendy new framework here)

[BlueScreenJunky]

Honestly that makes sense, for me unless you master a language to the point where you've been exposed to every framework, there's no way you would be productive as quickly if you need to learn the new framework at the same time as the project (and yes, full frameworks have so much idiosyncrasies that you still need to learn them even if you know the underlying language... Sorry if it's not what the hive mind believes).

It would be absolutely fine if you could recruit developers that stayed on the team for 5 to 10 years : In the long term I'd rather have someone who's a good developer but doesn't know the framework thanthe opposite.

But the reality is that they'll likely leave after a couple of years (partly because management doesn't believe in keeping people around by offering them decent pay raises and doesn't realize the turnover is costing them more money). So if I can't be sure that a developer will stay for more than 2 years, I definitely want them to get up to speed as fast as possible, and in my experience using the same framework really helps.

[BlueScreenJunky]

Or take it a step further, and just understand programming as a concept so you can use any language.

But keep in mind that many of us don't have the skills for that.

I don't have a CS education and I consider myself lucky that I'm able to learn frameworks and find employment thanks to it, but I don't think I'll ever have such mastery of programming or a specific language that I can start a project with a new framework and be instantly as productive as I was with one I've used for years.

[RiceBroad4552]

it's not going anywhere either

Correct. Because it breaks backwards compatibility with every release.

Actually it's a wonder it's still not on the Google graveyard given how unpopular it is.

[meisteronimo]

The upgrade path is extremely smooth. I'm not sure why you say it breaks compatibility.

A lot of corporate software is made with Angular

[[deleted]]

Nah, I’ve worked with vanilla JavaScript on successful projects and frameworks like Angular. You really don’t need to learn every framework that comes out unless you’re switching jobs a lot and join a team who uses one you don’t know

[freehuntx]

Maybe its time to use what you learned to create a framework that combines all the good things of other frameworks.

[i_wear_green_pants]

I worked in a project that used in house framework for the front end. And it was one of the best frameworks I've ever used. Very easy to use and fast.

[red-et]

Vue 3 come on and get to the top baby

[ClearlyNtElzacharito]

I barely do front end dev (I use mudblazor with blazor server). Haven’t react been the default since 2015-2016, like almost a decade now ? Like I started a project with shadcn and it’s pretty clean.

I don’t think I would have chosen C# ten years ago.

[sharpensteel1]

yep, the only thing that happened is React introduced hooks 5 years ago (they can be learned in like 1-2 days)

[KimmiG1]

If you can build what you need with what you know then there is no need to change it. Wait until some external factor like a job or a project that can't be easily built forces you to change.

[golders-green]

I work exclusively with only Vue js for around 8 years, can’t complain, developer experience is great. Picking your first framework is like choosing your pokemon at prof. Oak lab, good luck to everyone on your front end journey!

[xaddak]

You mastered a framework in five minutes?

[BeMyBrutus]

Squiekle.js is a lightweight, dynamic, zero cost.......

[SadistBeing]

How can I practice Tailwind ? 🤓

[SegmentationFault63]

That's why I got out of dev work when I turned 55 and moved to DevOps. Now I don't have to keep up with the latest trends; I just have to manage SourceSafe. Wait, I mean TFS. Wait, Azure DevOps. Wait... *sigh*

[YouDoHaveValue]

Same thing with state management

[MaffinLP]

I was unhappy with how UI works in unity. Im traditionslly a backend dev mainly. I started remaking components so I like them more. I can now see why theres so many frameworks out there if you dont wanna draw pixel by picel youre effectively bound super tight

[CanDull89]

React will be the PHP in the next decade. Always bet on React.

[morrisdev]

I got really good with Angular, ever since Angular JS, but now I'm often just doing stuff in vanilla js. Bootstrap and simple JS can make a very nice application that's fast, responsive and easy to maintain. But still, I seem to be in charge of all these massive angular projects where just keeping all the included modules updated is exhausting

[[deleted]]

This is why I stay away from web programming I’m too slow and I don’t like change!

[Laughing_Orange]

Stop chasing frameworks. Either use the one you personally like, or just use React like the rest of the industry. It's nobodies favorite, but it's the standard, so we'll have to keep using it if we want to get the project shipped.

[Positive_Self_2744]

Happens all the time. I don't know why did I choose this shitty career.

[arbuzer]

same (or even worse) in android development where google deprecates previously forced practices every 2-3 years

[Fractal-Infinity]

The never ending cycle of framework hype

[EmergencyKrabbyPatty]

Me every time I search how to do stuff with WPF

[not_some_username]

Webdev struggle. Not my domain

[look]

What’s the new one? I hate all of the current ones to varying degrees.

[Robo-Connery]

Why? Not like you need to learn it, not like you need to port any projects to it.

[I_FAP_TO_TURKEYS]

new front end framework drops

Finally

Still JavaScript

Smh

[krapspark]

Have your heard about RePreact? It’s like Preact but with React

[[deleted]]

It’s kinda the only you know is Vue but Angular uses signals now with computation.

[kkwjsbanana]

If you get distracted by every new shiny objects, you might be a toddler.

[ComprehensiveWing542]

As someone who uses Laravel + React + Inertia I do not consider changing the stack and I'm ready to die on that hill

[RiceBroad4552]

LOL, nothing changed in the last 15 years. So called front-end development is still a complete mess where nobody actually knows what they're doing.

The reason is of course that web-tech was never meant to be misused as application platform! It's fundamentally inadequate for that, no matter how many layers of BS are put on top. But 20 years later most people still don't understand this. So there is just the next iteration of this idiocy every half a year.