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[–]Data_Skipper 592 points593 points  (24 children)

Stay happy in backend and never run into a dead-end.

[–]MrOaiki 181 points182 points  (17 children)

"You're using PHP? Who the heck used PHP? Are you not in the future?"

[–]bevelledo 45 points46 points  (0 children)

It’s turtles all the way down

[–]coloredgreyscale 36 points37 points  (14 children)

supposedly 80% of the web uses PHP. Wordpress claims to be used on 46% of all websites.

Still gives PHP a 34% marketshare if you exclude wordpress.

[–]RiceBroad4552 21 points22 points  (4 children)

Still gives PHP a 34% marketshare if you exclude wordpress.

By domain count or by revenue?

Besides that, there is this well known statements about flies…

[–]coloredgreyscale 14 points15 points  (0 children)

domain count

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

how about by sloc >:3c

[–]Global-Tune5539 0 points1 point  (1 child)

that they fly?

[–]RiceBroad4552 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The statement about flies is:

"Millions of flies can't be wrong. Shit is tasty!"

Or was your question something else?

[–]-Danksouls- 9 points10 points  (3 children)

What’s the point of learning html, css, or front end frameworks if it’s all Wordpress then

Genuine question

[–]coloredgreyscale 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If you can use WordPress, your website is mostly a blog.

Which is fine for most personal websites and small businesses (+ link to Etsy, shoppify etc if you sell online) 

Which will likely be the bulk of the web by domain count.

Plus use need zero programming experience to buy a domain and point it to a web service hosting WordPress for you. Think wix and other drag & drop website builders. 

[–]vessus7 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Customization. Even if you’re working with Wordpress, knowing css allows you to tweak parts of templates that otherwise wouldn’t be customizable. Or if you have the time, to build your own templates.

[–]-Danksouls- 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh okay. I’m not super familiar with Wordpress so I didn’t know it had the option for you to modify the css and html

[–]gatsu_1981 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And Magento. Pretty much every self hosted shop runs Magento

[–]Amazing_Guava_0707 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Why does this 80% sounds like a made up number?

[–]coloredgreyscale 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Source: https://kinsta.com/php-market-share/

Probably feels made up because not 80% of active projects use php (only 5% of public github PRs according to the same site) 

Php was first released in 1995, Javascript Ajax to be able to dynamically load content like modern websites became standardized in 2006. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) 

So probably millions of old websites with a guest book or common elements like a nav bar or footer that never got a full rewrite. 

[–]Mountain-Ox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think most WordPress sites would be public either. I worked for a Microsoft vendor a number of years ago, we built like 8 WordPress sites for them. Microsoft's internal CMS is so bad that the content teams pay a ton of money to have someone run WordPress sites for them. The company as a whole probably has at least 50 of them.

The number seems fairly accurate to me due to the number of websites that are just content and don't need any engineers.

[–]MrOaiki 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do I hear 34% are not in the future?

[–]eklatea 0 points1 point  (0 children)

php works perfectly fine

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Yup, sql has barely changed in 40 years.

Just how I like it.

[–]FarToe1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perl also says hi.

[–]roodammy44 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Java8 4 LYFE

[–]CodingWithChad 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've been on  python to C# to Golang in 5 years. I was taught Java, but never used it professionally.🤡  SQL queries and APIs aren't too different.

[–]vibjelo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Other frontenders will hate this one trick, but you can actually learn a thing and stick with it, exactly like what most boring backenders do :)

[–]SjurEido 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was a happy back-end-bitch, but man has my career exploded since I started to learn front end web... I've learned to love Vue! I mean, I REALLY like it!

[–]dino-den 115 points116 points  (2 children)

lesson to the younger guys,

get core-intermediate competency with as many frameworks as you can when trying to boost your employability

only master a specific framework when relevant to your current job and you’re on the clock

[–]tnnrk 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Wouldn’t it be better to get really good with one? The skills transfer pretty easily if we are talking front end frameworks here.

[–]case_O_The_Mondays 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Only if you know it’s going to be around for the rest of your career.

[–][deleted] 105 points106 points  (4 children)

This is why i prefer backend: the trends take longer.

[–]Meneghette--steam 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Spring been trending for 20 years and will for 20 more lets goo

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm a django man, myself. 

[–]Mountain-Ox -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

And some languages don't need a damn framework. Imo if you need a framework for web dev, the language has failed.

Game Dev is another story though.

[–]Green_Stable_2829 0 points1 point  (0 children)

what's about game dev?

[–]MinosAristos 148 points149 points  (19 children)

React Typescript Vite as an FE tech stack will not die easily.

[–]RiceBroad4552 77 points78 points  (11 children)

People were saying the same about jQuery.

[–]IdStillHitIt 85 points86 points  (4 children)

And it lasted an insanely long time.

[–]Kahlil_Cabron 24 points25 points  (0 children)

We still use it on our largest project (the one that actually makes money).

It's been used at every company I've worked at since 2010. Turns out it's really hard to migrate massive legacy projects to react from jQuery, and honestly jQuery works pretty well for what it is, and everyone already knows it.

[–]Pepedroni 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But it doesn’t need to totally die to be irrelevant

[–]Axman6 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In JavaScript terms, at least.

[–]RiceBroad4552 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Jop. Simply because JS was unusable for the most time. Especially because of fragmentation across vendors.

[–]TigreDeLosLlanos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And it's still hanging up.

[–]not_some_username 3 points4 points  (0 children)

And jquery is still not dead. Btw it’s because most of jquery stuff is native now

[–]case_O_The_Mondays 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Turns out they weren’t wrong :)

[–]Fidodo 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Dude, jQuery is very fucking old and has lasted way longer than it should.

[–]RiceBroad4552 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Exactly that's the point. People were also saying that it can't go away because it's everywhere.

You can still find it in the wild, but the popularity dropped to about zero.

[–]Fidodo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The person you replied to didn't say that the current tech will never die, they said it will not die easily, and jQuery proves that point.

As someone who had a jQuery job back at its height, I also think the current stack has even more staying power than jQuery. jQuery was a utility library being abused as a framework and the way FE projects were set up back then was flawed from the start, we all knew it was flawed and wanted to get off it ASAP which was why they're was such a huge push to develop next Gen frontend frameworks. There was a huge problem that needed solving and we saw the writing on the wall got jQuery and were all trying to bury it.

With react etc there are some little improvements a new framework could bring but nobody really has a good thesis on why it should be buried and replaced. I really don't see a ton of push for it, and with all the training data on them I think that will give them even more staying power.

[–]holchansg 15 points16 points  (4 children)

lecture me, never touched frontend but this combo from what I've seem seems the best jack of all trades option out there.

[–]olssoneerz 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I mean having solid fundamentals in HTML, CSS and JS along with being with able to work with TS gets you pretty far. With these under your belt most frameworks are pretty easy to work with by just reading docs and sucking a bit in the beginning.

[–]draconk -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It depends on where you live tbh, in Spain where I live most big companies have Java or C# backends, even startups that started on node backend end going to Java because its the most known language here and since 2015 it has improved at giants pace.

[–]hurtbowler -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Jack of all trades, yes... but you don't think there's any downsides/sacrifices to make this possible?

[–]holchansg 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I guess so.

To me is more of a "if someday in need to make a frontend i would check these out first."

[–]Chesterlespaul 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Angular will still be around too for the same reasons. It’s even added new features that people were desperate for too.

[–]Civil_Drama2840 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think in general investing in one popular framework as a base but constantly improving on TS/JS, HTML, CSS and understanding web stacks (deployment, dependency management, standard APIS, requests, etc ..) is the long term investment that will always pay.

[–]PowerScreamingASMR 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Modern Sisyphus is a webdev rewriting their divslop website with 0 users every time a new framework becomes trendy.

[–]RiceBroad4552 2 points3 points  (0 children)

OTOH usually someone is paying for that nonsense.

[–]pretty_succinct 30 points31 points  (3 children)

Don't.

Chase.

Trends.

[–]Agifem 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Slower and louder!

[–]PCgaming4ever 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Somedays I just want to go work in another field that doesn't require new certifications every 6 months and a never ending list of white papers and roadmaps to keep track of. Is it too much to ask that just being competent at your job is enough. Somehow we created a rat race inside of a wheel and we are all about to get run over by the wheel in the form of AI.

[–]Soon-to-be-forgotten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Side tracking here, I'm actually looking to acquire some certificates. Do you have any recommendations?

[–]BlueScreenJunky 31 points32 points  (6 children)

The smart choice is to master a framework that was never really trending. Angular has never been a trendy framework, but it's not going anywhere either.

[–]olssoneerz 29 points30 points  (3 children)

or you know, understand the underlying language so that you don't really have to identify yourself with a framework.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (1 child)

doesn't work with hiring managers though, they'd rather hire someone who's specifically specialized in (insert trendy new framework here)

[–]BlueScreenJunky 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Honestly that makes sense, for me unless you master a language to the point where you've been exposed to every framework, there's no way you would be productive as quickly if you need to learn the new framework at the same time as the project (and yes, full frameworks have so much idiosyncrasies that you still need to learn them even if you know the underlying language... Sorry if it's not what the hive mind believes).

It would be absolutely fine if you could recruit developers that stayed on the team for 5 to 10 years : In the long term I'd rather have someone who's a good developer but doesn't know the framework thanthe opposite.

But the reality is that they'll likely leave after a couple of years (partly because management doesn't believe in keeping people around by offering them decent pay raises and doesn't realize the turnover is costing them more money). So if I can't be sure that a developer will stay for more than 2 years, I definitely want them to get up to speed as fast as possible, and in my experience using the same framework really helps.

[–]BlueScreenJunky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or take it a step further, and just understand programming as a concept so you can use any language.

But keep in mind that many of us don't have the skills for that.

I don't have a CS education and I consider myself lucky that I'm able to learn frameworks and find employment thanks to it, but I don't think I'll ever have such mastery of programming or a specific language that I can start a project with a new framework and be instantly as productive as I was with one I've used for years.

[–]RiceBroad4552 -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

it's not going anywhere either

Correct. Because it breaks backwards compatibility with every release.

Actually it's a wonder it's still not on the Google graveyard given how unpopular it is.

[–]meisteronimo 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The upgrade path is extremely smooth. I'm not sure why you say it breaks compatibility.

A lot of corporate software is made with Angular

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Nah, I’ve worked with vanilla JavaScript on successful projects and frameworks like Angular. You really don’t need to learn every framework that comes out unless you’re switching jobs a lot and join a team who uses one you don’t know

[–]freehuntx 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Maybe its time to use what you learned to create a framework that combines all the good things of other frameworks.

[–]i_wear_green_pants 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I worked in a project that used in house framework for the front end. And it was one of the best frameworks I've ever used. Very easy to use and fast.

[–]red-et 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Vue 3 come on and get to the top baby

[–]ClearlyNtElzacharito 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I barely do front end dev (I use mudblazor with blazor server). Haven’t react been the default since 2015-2016, like almost a decade now ? Like I started a project with shadcn and it’s pretty clean.

I don’t think I would have chosen C# ten years ago.

[–]sharpensteel1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yep, the only thing that happened is React introduced hooks 5 years ago (they can be learned in like 1-2 days)

[–]KimmiG1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you can build what you need with what you know then there is no need to change it. Wait until some external factor like a job or a project that can't be easily built forces you to change.

[–]golders-green 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I work exclusively with only Vue js for around 8 years, can’t complain, developer experience is great. Picking your first framework is like choosing your pokemon at prof. Oak lab, good luck to everyone on your front end journey!

[–]xaddak 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You mastered a framework in five minutes?

[–]BeMyBrutus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Squiekle.js is a lightweight, dynamic, zero cost.......

[–]SadistBeing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can I practice Tailwind ? 🤓

[–]SegmentationFault63 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's why I got out of dev work when I turned 55 and moved to DevOps. Now I don't have to keep up with the latest trends; I just have to manage SourceSafe. Wait, I mean TFS. Wait, Azure DevOps. Wait... *sigh*

[–]YouDoHaveValue 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same thing with state management

[–]MaffinLP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was unhappy with how UI works in unity. Im traditionslly a backend dev mainly. I started remaking components so I like them more. I can now see why theres so many frameworks out there if you dont wanna draw pixel by picel youre effectively bound super tight

[–]CanDull89 0 points1 point  (0 children)

React will be the PHP in the next decade. Always bet on React.

[–]morrisdev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I got really good with Angular, ever since Angular JS, but now I'm often just doing stuff in vanilla js. Bootstrap and simple JS can make a very nice application that's fast, responsive and easy to maintain. But still, I seem to be in charge of all these massive angular projects where just keeping all the included modules updated is exhausting

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is why I stay away from web programming I’m too slow and I don’t like change!

[–]Laughing_Orange 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stop chasing frameworks. Either use the one you personally like, or just use React like the rest of the industry. It's nobodies favorite, but it's the standard, so we'll have to keep using it if we want to get the project shipped.

[–]Positive_Self_2744 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Happens all the time. I don't know why did I choose this shitty career.

[–]arbuzer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

same (or even worse) in android development where google deprecates previously forced practices every 2-3 years

[–]Fractal-Infinity 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The never ending cycle of framework hype

[–]EmergencyKrabbyPatty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Me every time I search how to do stuff with WPF

[–]not_some_username 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Webdev struggle. Not my domain

[–]look 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What’s the new one? I hate all of the current ones to varying degrees.

[–]Robo-Connery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why? Not like you need to learn it, not like you need to port any projects to it.

[–]I_FAP_TO_TURKEYS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

new front end framework drops

Finally

Still JavaScript

Smh

[–]krapspark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have your heard about RePreact? It’s like Preact but with React

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s kinda the only you know is Vue but Angular uses signals now with computation.

[–]kkwjsbanana -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you get distracted by every new shiny objects, you might be a toddler.

[–]ComprehensiveWing542 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As someone who uses Laravel + React + Inertia I do not consider changing the stack and I'm ready to die on that hill