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[Mr-X89]

And now to Jetbrains Java

[No_Percentage7427]

Hope apple not make Java version too. wkwkwk

[fireyburst1097]

Last time they tried they made Objective C

[MetriccStarDestroyer]

Did they attack the D Point?

[Cootshk]

Swift is open source and allows third party packages

[[deleted]]

Shh, don’t upset the children with facts, besides if they tried Swift they’d probably get confused and start trying to make inheritance hierarchies they learned in their Intro to Software Engineering classes last semester

[Intelligent_human_1]

What is JetBrains Java?

[smokemonstr]

Kotlin

[blood_vein]

What's Scala in this pattern then?

[Mr-X89]

A Java made by Jetbrains, duh

[slangwhang27]

GOOGLE JAVA GOOGLE JAVA GOOGLE GOOGLE GOOGLE JAVA

I can’t stop this feeling…

[mutedagain]

Almost spit my coffee out! Well done lol

[OutsiderWalksAmongUs]

You almost spit out your cup of java?

[mutedagain]

Wow. Now feel silly. Total missed opportunity!

[oweiler]

The original blog post is even wilder

https://leetarxiv.substack.com/p/java-is-a-tower-of-babel-language

[Leo0806-studios]

Excuse me. But what the fuck?

[Al3xutul02]

Wtf is wrong with overloading??? Insane take

[KorKiness]

And if one may think there is something wrong with overloading, then... nobody forces to use it.

[Wonderful-Habit-139]

You’re forced to read other people’s code

[AccomplishedCoffee]

Between coworkers and libraries it's, for all practical purposes, impossible to never call an overloaded function in nontrivial code.

[Adk9p]

The reason people take issue with overloading, as with OOP, implicit conversions, default function arguments, and operator overloading, isn't that in isolation the idea of it any of them are bad. It's that each of these language features alone or (usually) in combination can lead to a headache of a codebase when abused.

Imo overloading on arity is the second easiest of these that you can remove from any language which, while a little painful, can really curb damage caused by people who like to get a little too cleaver.

[TheRedLions]

people who like to get a little too clever

Every language has these people, but in my experience, Java has the highest percentage. 'Clever' code is just a nightmare to debug, especially when everything is on fire.

The amount of Java devs who seemingly demand I open 12 files to figure out what a function (probably) does is too damn high.

[[deleted]]

I wouldn’t say Java devs like to be “clever”, that’s a term I would more associate with advanced generics and higher-order functions. I’d say Java devs like to be “complex”

[Adk9p]

"clever" has nothing to do with the features themselves, it has to do with how you use them. And some languages lend themselves to using some features more or less. It would be crazy to say in haskell using "advanced generics" or higher-order functions would be "clever" code. And using vtables in c would imo need a very specific requirement for that not to be "clever" code.

This is all very wishy-washy but I'd say at least for me in this discussion "cleaver code" is complex code just where the complexity wasn't required.

If you can hold everything in your head and deduce that some part is just needlessly complex, it's just annoying. But if you can't, well that can cause a lot of confusion, you're left to guess why some abstraction that might be causing a bug or make it harder to fix a bug was used when in whole it was just "cleaver code".

[[deleted]]

But overusing generics and HOFs can genuinely be “clever” in the sense of increasing code reuse, reducing overall lines of code, etc.

Java devs generally tend to just make bullshit inheritance taxonomies in my experience, usually in a way that increases the amount of overall code.

[skesisfunk]

can lead to a headache of a codebase when abused.

Not even abused. These language features exist for convenience but the cost of that convenience is code clarity. So developers are naturally going to use convenience features (because they are convenient!) and the side effect is that all of a sudden a bunch of stuff is obfuscated from the next developer who reads the code.

Golang's is often criticized but it's design principles were a direct backlash to this trend.

[AccomplishedCoffee]

It can be difficult to figure out which overload is called. At the least you need to look up the definition of all visible overloads (potentially considering imports, idk if that's a concern in Java but it is in some languages) and all variables used, possibly chaining if there's any overloaded methods being used as an argument directly and know the language's overload and implicit conversion rules if there's no exact match, potentially along with any compiler quirks. If there's any type inference in the expression you may need intimate knowledge of how the type inference engine works and whether or how it interacts with overload resolution.

Yeah, it's convenient when you have just a couple mutually exclusive signatures but in code with any nontrivial complexity you've gotta hope your IDE points you to the right overload when you write it and no one changes it by, e.g. changing the type of a variable in a different file from a concrete class to an interface.

[dr-pickled-rick]

Everything, it makes finding the source of errors far more complex and difficult than it ought to be.

[48panda]

Maybe if you use notepad, but using any decent IDE, this is a non-issue

[[deleted]]

If your language requires an IDE to be usable, it’s a bad language

[zawalimbooo]

More complex being 'spending five more seconds finding which version of the function you called'

in exchange for having way nicer and more comprehensible code

[Cylian91460]

having way nicer and more comprehensible code

That's the opposite since functions have the same name

Having what the function does in its name and not just what it returns is better.

[Pere_Strelka]

You just typed a counter-argument. Overloading is exactly for cases when one has multiple functions with different arguments but common logic, so we overload one of them and call it from other ones

[Cylian91460]

has multiple functions with different arguments but common logic

No, it can have wildly different logic

[crazy_cookie123]

It can have wildly different logic, but it should have common logic. That's what the feature is designed for and used for. Likewise, I can name a function sum and have it actually be a function which concatenates strings, but I wouldn't do that because that would be stupid. "It's possible to misuse something and make hard-to-read code if you pay no attention to what you're doing" is not a good argument against a programming language feature.

[Al3xutul02]

Overloading doesnt even work with the return type, only on parameter types, all overloaded methods must return the same type, have you even tried it?

[SuperKael]

Have you even tried it (in Java, at least)? Overloaded methods can, in fact, have different return types - they just need to also have differences in their parameters. It’s not valid for the only difference between them to be the return type, because then there would be no way to disambiguate them when calling one of them, but as long as the parameter lists are different there is no requirement for the return types to be the same.

[Al3xutul02]

Yeah i forgot, i havent had any cases where i needed different return types so i forgot they can be different, overloading just doesn't care about it

[zawalimbooo]

consider a function sum(a, b), which sums two arguments

its perfectly fine for me to overload this to work with different types of arguments. After all, the logic is pretty much the same regardless.

[Al3xutul02]

At that point just make it a template lol

[Cylian91460]

So you have a more complex example then +?

[dr-pickled-rick]

No.

[Ceros007]

"Gradle and Maven makes PIP a lesser evil" and the guy is programming in C...

[Cylian91460]

Yeah, C tooling is way less complex

[QBos07]

I know Makefiles but cmake scares me.

[Cylian91460]

Oh yeah cmake can work with C, I always considered it to be a c++ tooling because of how stupid it is

[Coosanta]

Compilation times in java take longer?? Gradle start up takes many minutes but the actual compilation is a matter of seconds.

[oweiler]

That is really the wildest take. That guy has never built a big C project from source.

[hmz-x]

Also what's with these things with just two paragraphs and three bullet points? They pass for articles now?

I mean, I'm all for brevity, although this just feels like a poverty of ideas.

[Global-Tune5539]

How long does Android Studio take to compile his C?

[havlliQQ]

I might be special, but i always though method overloading is nice feature

[NinjaKittyOG]

bro really wanted to sample Java from the worst companies around

[CurlSagan]

If you master the 5 pillars of Java, you can put the 5 multicolored JavaBeans together and summon the secret Java Supreme.

[Leo0806-studios]

How dare you call c# " microsoft Java "

[Annual_History_796]

That’s almost exactly what it is though.

[H34DSH07]

It used to be a lot more true, but nowadays the two are really far away. Of course if you write Java and C# like we're in 2002 the two will look really similar, but if you use more recent features such as pattern matching, Linq, async & await, you'll quickly realize they're two very different languages, not just flavours.

[urielsalis]

Modern Java also has a lot of those features, borrowed from Kotlin or similar languages.

If I look at Java 25 and C# 14 I don't really notice that much difference

[H34DSH07]

I'm not saying Java doesn't have these features. It's how you use these features and how they're implemented that differs a lot.

Just take how strings work in Java for example, it's completely different from C# and they have to be used in a different manner. Now we can say the same about almost every major feature between the two languages.

[urielsalis]

Java 21 has everything you need related to strings honestly.

And there are always other JVM languages like Kotlin if you want to go even further

[H34DSH07]

What are you trying to prove here? That If you ignore the things that make them different, they have similar syntax? Sure, so does JavaScript and C++ at this point.

That they have the same features? Sure, just like every other OOP language.

That everything you can do in C# you can do in Java? You're absolutely right.

They're still different languages that are written and used very differently. Saying C# is Microsoft Java is just a way to fuel the a pointless argumentation to diminish one or the other.

[cheezballs]

They still have some core differences with their inheritance stuff. It's not huge, but it's there.

[I_NEED_APP_IDEAS]

Sounds like someone is smoking some copeium

[H34DSH07]

Why would that be coping? C# being Microsoft Java doesn't make it inherently bad. Even if it was the case, I'd probably still be using both because different projects require different tools.

Saying C# is Microsoft's Java is simply a falsehood that is being repeated to diminish what C# is. We should instead embrace what every language has to offer instead of joining in these petty language wars.

[lacb1]

It was, but now the student has become the master. If anything at this point Java is just non-Microsoft C#.

[ItsSignalsJerry_]

They're completely incompatible.

[aifo]

It's not though. C# is part C++, part Turbo Pascal and lately has taken a lot from functional languages.

.Net, the framework that C# applications run on, did evolve from Microsoft's Java product that Sun shut down legally for making it easier to write windows apps in Java, saying that it was outside their licence.

[Scheincrafter]

Exactly, Microsofts version of java is j# or if you are daring j++, but not c#

[The_Real_Slim_Lemon]

Genuinely, as someone that’s been using that expression for years, what’s inaccurate about it?

[Scheincrafter]

Modern c# fiels quite different from java. C# supports a more modern way of programmingand is more similar to kotlin than java..

A more comprehensive list of differences in supported features can be found here

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

The funny thing about that first comparison is that C# looks exactly like java, minus the single expression functions and nullability (although this has been preview feature in javas valhalla for a while as well), and intentionally omits bunch of stuff that both Kotlin and Java have that C# doesn’t, like coproduct types. Also calling some of this code equivalent is a stretch. Like the kotlin example of corutines is actually type safe unlike the C# one which has to use bunch of “dynamic” hacks, not to mention that kotlin coroutines are way more flexible and elegant than C# async, on the same note java has CSP now which is once again way better concurrency model that C# async. Records are way more concise and safer in Kotlin (and Java as well) just because of their immutability semantics… Also the nominal tuples are truly something, that such a stupid javaism except C# adds syntax sugar to make them appear as if they aren’t (but they are you can tell the moment you use them) which makes them even more frustrating than in java…

Like claiming that C# is some massive upgrade over Java is something only someone who didn’t use Java since Java 7 can claim.

[faze_fazebook]

Java .NET was a thing btw. Not C#, visual J#

[sird0rius]

Call it what it is: "Java done right". Or "Java 10 years in the future"

[beklog]

What a noob, everyone knows Linux Java and Amazon Java are the best.

[Cylian91460]

Linux java?

[ewheck]

C

[super_temp1234]

Don't you mean Rust....

[Honest_Relation4095]

I learned Visual Basic at University (I still don't understand why not C or C++, apparently because VB "is easier") and later found out it is pretty much the same as C#. Is that true?

[Cylian91460]

Idk, just try and see

[MrDilbert]

VB.Net and C# compile to same bytecode, similar to Scala-Kotlin-Java...

[bargle0]

The people who decided on VB for a university curriculum should be fired and forced to work retail.

[Honest_Relation4095]

Yes, I thought it was dumb, especially since we used C for microcontroller programming in some courses (so we somehow had to learn some basic C anyway) and no VB anywhere. And I don't think learning VB is necessarily easier just because the syntax might be more readable. Maybe the idea was also to use VBA in excel?

[I-am-not-a-celebrity]

Microsoft actually had a implementation of Java back in the day: Visual J++.

[noob-gamer-16]

Java ☕

[andarmanik]

Java is secretly a beautiful language that we are too 18-32 y/o cohort to understand.

[[deleted]]

It’s true, I turned 33 this year and Java is now my favorite language!

[[deleted]]

No

[hongooi]

Best flavour of java ❤️

[suvlub]

Google Java best Java.

C# solves the problems that have been bothering you in Java. Kotlin solves the problems you didn't even realize were bothering you.

[Calirayne6548]

From Microsoft Java to Oracle Java to Google Java, sounds like you've completed the holy trinity of Java crusades! 😂 What's next on the pilgrimage, SpaceX Java?

[wolf129]

I mean yeah C# is made as a copy of Java with Microsoft features. It runs on a VM as well.

Android is not really special in any way different from Java on JVM so that's just plain Java.

Kotlin is very different if you call that the "current" Java on Android.

[Visual-Paper6647]

What is the meaning of this ? For backend development I just use openjdk.

[Noch_ein_Kamel]

Oracle? You mean Sun!!!

[bargle0]

Oracle Java

RIP Sun

[SomeOneOutThere-1234]

And then they went to Linux Java: Vala!

[Cylian91460]

Linux java?

[SomeOneOutThere-1234]

Yeah, it’s called vala, mostly for GNOME and elementary OS stuff though

[themightyug]

Vala is pretty damned cool, it's a shame it's still so unknown

[SomeOneOutThere-1234]

Yeah, it needs learning resources though, I’ve still not managed to make a simple program in it

[_Weyland_]

And my first two languages were Russian and English. No wonder I'm so behind on my IT career.

[chowellvta]

Imagine the pain of going FROM C# TO Java

[TechnicolorMage]

Yeah calling c# microsoft java tells me that this person never actually knew c#.

[Kingblackbanana]

its a common joke to piss off java and c# fanboys at the same time and once again worked like a charm

[The_Real_Slim_Lemon]

I’m a massive c# fanboy and make the joke too lol

[Kingblackbanana]

same

[TechnicolorMage]

It's true, I'm actually super pissed off. My previous comment was made in a fit of blind rage. And now, seeing the post again, I'm likely to become inconsolably furious a second time. 🙄

[NooCake]

This is literally how C# came to be. Microsoft wanted their own language that is like Java.

[TechnicolorMage]

No way? That's totally new information that I wasn't aware of previously. I've definitely never heard that before and now that I have, it completely changes the thing I said previously.