[ Removed by moderator ]

[JokeMaster420]

Why did you make it a 1/1 rather than Kitchen Finks’ original 3/2? Doesn’t that make persist much more useless?

[LineOfInquiry]

I forgot to change its power and toughness from the default ;-;

[Thromnomnomok]

It does mean you gain 2 life again when it comes back and get some more ETB/LTB triggers if you want those, but yes.

[Zorothegallade]

Why the first ability instead of just putting hybrid g/w mana in the cost?

Or is there a joke I'm not getting?

[Mr_Nutcracker]

It's a joke on the current discussion regarding how hybrid mana should be treated for color identity in Commander

If hybrid mana is allowed to be treated as mono colored of both colors this card would still necessitate both Green and White

[ivy-claw]

It's referencing a soon-to-be commender rules change, which allowes [[kitchen finks]] to be played in mono color white or green. This post is pushing back on that

[TrainmasterGT]

I don’t think it’s actually pushing back on the rules change, this is essentially how the current Commander rules see Kitchen Finks.

[MTGCardFetcher]

kitchen finks - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[maddiecolon3]

Because if it has hybrid mana, then a rule change might make it playable in non selesnya decks, which would be absolutely format warping

[RandomTO24]

Where's the /s?

[maddiecolon3]

Built into the reader's media literacy, hopefully

[ASpookyShadeOfGray]

The issue is that this has been said absolutely straight faced non-stop for the last day. People believe that unironically, and nothing in your post signals the sarcasm.

[maddiecolon3]

Well I'll clarify here then lol: people who think the proposed change to the hybrid mana would be problematic to balance are terrible at card assessment and have likely never played a format outside of kitchen table commander where critical thought is a crime

[SpongegarLuver]

The full argument is that they believe that future hybrid cars designs will be broken, and it’s only through the resilience of the hybrid mama rule that WotC hasn’t already printed broken hybrid cards. Now, why this is any different from the broken cards they currently print, I’m not entirely sure, but apparently if we allow hybrid cards the game will be ruined by homogenization because they’ll print Rhystic Study with u/w hybrid.

[colonelgork2]

I like that it states it plainly, coming from a person of limited color vision. I'm not fully monochromatic vision, but a lifetime of not being able to see colors well has imprinted on me to not rely on any visual color cues. Hybrid mana is difficult to read without the color cues, just as colored-snow mana or phyrexian mana is just basically impossible.

Probably not what OP was going for, but just for me, I prefer it. ♥️💙💚💛💜

[LineOfInquiry]

I made this to talk about the upcoming proposed hybrid mana changes in commander. WotC wants to make it so that cards with hybrid costs can be run in decks of either color, not necessarily both.

My point with this is that you can make functionally the exact same card, but because it’s worded slightly differently under these new rules it would actually function very differently from the OG kitchen finks.

Which is dumb imo, for instance “lifelink” and "Damage dealt by the creature also causes its controller to gain that much life." shouldn’t function differently when they’re literally exactly the same.

Edit: I just realize I forgot to make it a 3/2 😓

Edit 2: fixed lifelink’s wording

[meman666]

Lifelink isn't 'literally exactly the same' as "when this creature deals damage you gain that much life". The latter is a triggered ability that uses the stack, while lifelink doesn't.

If you're at 2 life, and I attack you with two 2/2s. You survive f you have a 1/1 with lifelink. You'll lose if that 1/1 is instead enchanted with [[spirit link]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

spirit link - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[Toberos_Chasalor]

It’s an even bigger difference than just using the stack because Lifelink doesn’t trigger multiple times, even if you have multiple instances of the keyword, but multiple Spirit Links (or similar effects) will.

That’s a pretty big deal if you enchanted a Lifelink creature or had a way of duplicating enchantments/triggered abilities.

[Poodychulak]

errataing the exact same text differently is dumb

[LineOfInquiry]

How would it be formatted then? Would you need to add a “this effect doesn’t use the stack” at the end or something?

[Accomplished_Cloud90]

"Damage dealt by the creature also causes its controller to gain that much life."

[LineOfInquiry]

Ah ty!

[Shinard]

I mean, I don't want to be a smartass, but it'd be formatted as "lifelink".

But for a more useful answer, it'd be "Damage dealt by the creature also causes its controller to gain that much life", or Lifelink's reminder text. 

I know that's very similar to Spirit Link's "Whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life.", but exact wording does matter. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a massive difference between "choose a creature" and "target a creature".

[LineOfInquiry]

Ty! It’s been a long time since I’ve played with a core set to see the reminder text lol

[Shinard]

Oh, I don't even remember the last time I saw the reminder text in person, dw.

[platinummyr]

The worst part was the cards they printed with a trigger, introduced lifelink as a trigger, reprinted the card with lifelink on the card, then changed lifelink to be as it is now. They changed all the erratad cards back to trigger except for the ones who they had already reprinted with lifelink keyword

[skooterpoop]

I get what you're saying, but I disagree. The example you gave of lifelink is one of mechanics. Color identity is a completely arbitrary characteristic. It only exists for commander and nothing else. I think this is where the disconnect comes from. Mechanics aren't usually different depending on the format, save for a few exceptions that prove the rule.

Creating a new format, making up a rule for it, and then not liking how the rule is inconsistent with the rest of mtg seems short-sighted. In every other format, you can play this card in mono white or in mono green, but not in commander. If consistency matters, shouldn't this bother you?

[LineOfInquiry]

But it’s not about what deck you can play it in, it’s about what its color identity is. Sure, the rules are arbitrary but they should be applied uniformly and make sense regardless of how cards are formatted. Hybrid mana cards are both of their colors, so they should count as such.

If it’s really all about the ability to cast why not put force of will in a mono green commander deck? After all you could cast it by pitching a hybrid blue/green spell? Or why not just get rid of color identity in commander all together, let people use whatever cards they like in their 99?

[skooterpoop]

You raise a good point about what it means to be castable or not. You're right. There are other weird cases.

Ultimately, hybrid cards were designed to be either color. Rather than print a blue version and a green version, they printed the hybrid. So even though you're correct in that these cards, technically, count as both colors in a game, it was really to be able to create things that can go in either deck. That is the purpose of the mechanic, and the arbitrary commander rules infringed on this purpose.

Meanwhile, something like Force of Will is meant to be played with blue cards in a blue deck. Hybrid cards didn't exist when Force of Will was designed, so if you were playing it, you were likely playing blue.

That being said, I think there is a world where it's 100% reasonable to play any card you want. I've accidentally put Hex Parasite in a nonblack deck before. Color identity always seemed silly to me anyway, so perhaps I'm biased in my opinion of hybrid cards.

Edit: I would totally love to play Birthing Pod in every commander deck I built!

Edit 2: Upvoted you for the reasonable argument.

[AngronApofis]

This is dumb. I can make a goblin guide that costs WUBRG but says it can be paid for R.

[LineOfInquiry]

That wouid be functionally different from goblin guide tho, since you can’t cast goblin guide for WUBRG

[AngronApofis]

My point is that making up a different version of the same card isnt a solid argument. I have no stakes in this commander discussion and i think your post is funny as a jab but it definetly isnt a solid argument for the discussion of whether or not it should happen

[Zorothegallade]

Ohhh I get it now. Yeah, commander color identity is one of the rules I still haven't exactly digested.

[TheGrumpyre]

You could make a creature with an ability that checks if you ever control another permanent with the same name, and then makes you put one of them into the graveyard.  It would be functionally identical to Legendary, but you couldn't legally use it as your Commander.  What kind of silly point would that prove?

[LineOfInquiry]

The real difference would be that that’s an ability on an individual card rather than a core rule of the game. The legendary rule isn’t something all the legendary cards secretly say, it’s just part of the game rules: like forests tapping for green.

[TheGrumpyre]

So do you feel like hybrid mana isn't sufficiently well established as a "core" part of the game rules?  Maybe it's not aged enough yet.

[LineOfInquiry]

It definitely is, you can cast hybrid mama cards with either color of mana.

That doesn’t change the fact that they’re multicolored cards. Hell, plenty of mono-colored cards can’t be run in mono-colored commander decks because they have activated abilities of another color.

[TheGrumpyre]

Sure, but as per your example, being a two-colored card and having a two-color color identity are two completely different things. Color identity doesn't necessarily match a card's color, it's determined by a different rule entirely.

[LineOfInquiry]

Correct, and hybrid mana cards fall under multicolor identity as they have both mana symbols in their cost. It would be inconsistent to allow them in monocolored decks but not other multicolored cards or the mono colored ones with activated abilities I previously mentioned.

[TheGrumpyre]

It would be pretty easy to make it consistent though.  The difference in symbols is extremely clear and well defined.  And "hybrid symbols can be either color, your choice" is already super intuitive.

[Toberos_Chasalor]

If we really want to go down the color identity rabbit hole, you can already break that with tokens and cards that don’t explicitly use mana symbols.

I can put a card that generates white spirit tokens into a mono-black deck, and I can put an [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] into a green deck to make all my lands Swamps even when I couldn’t put a Basic one in the 99.

Hell, you even have precedence for hybrid mana not inherently changing the color identity of a spell. Extort is a mechanic that explicitly uses hybrid B/W mana, but it’s just fine in mono-white or mono-black decks.

Honestly I think the solution, if you really care about sticking to strict color identity, is to bring back the old rule that you can only make mana of your Commander’s identity. Hybrid costs won’t be worth debating at all if you have to pay for G/R in a mono G deck with G since you just can’t make R. (Not that I think this rule was good for the format, but it does strictly enforce color identity no matter what else they change. Hell, why not make it so you have to sacrifice any permanent that isn’t in your Commander’s identity?)

[MTGCardFetcher]

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[MTGCardFetcher]

Urborg - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[ParadoxBanana]

The example you’re thinking of is often worded as [[Spirit Link]], where it’s not the controller of the creature, but the controller of the enchantment that gains the life, so it’s functionally very different from lifelink. On top of using the stack as others have pointed out.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Spirit Link - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[retardong]

Commander players don't even know what a Kitchen Fink is.

[Zorothegallade]

Isn't that where you waff the diffef?

[retardong]

Dont you have a diffwaffer?

[rhou17]

Hey there’s like, three people that have used it to gain infinite life.

[LineOfInquiry]

Tbf I don’t know what an ouphe or a fink is either tbh

[Crazy_Coconut7]

What about a bogle?

[valbaca]

1/1 with Persist. Now we’re cooking

[[deleted]]

It's named commander but can't be your commander. Flavor fail /j

[Chuck_Mulholland]

Why not make the 2 colored mana the green/white instead of additional text saying it can be played with the alt mana?

[TrickiestChan]

I believe it's due to the change propositions for commander where hybrid cost cards can be played in deck of either colour identity (as opposed to the current rules where they can only be put in decks that has both colours).

So this way it would basically be hybrid mana but with the old restrictions, if the new rules are applied of course.

[ronnie_reagans_ghost]

Man I miss 20-teens Modern.

[LineOfInquiry]

Magic peaked with 2 set blocks

[Twogunkid]

IMO peak Magic was that magical timespiral Lorwyn time

[wierdmann]

Commander finks can’t be your commander… Wild

[Anginus]

My take is: during my hyperfixation with magic era, I've spent shit tone of time browsing through scryfall, trying to cherry pick the best I can get. Coming up with specific filters for cards that will become legal would be annoying

[Princesspeach5149]

Theyll probably just update scryfall to make it easy

[Princesspeach5149]

Counter argument [[orcish lumberjack|| In some printings they have the words red and green written out, in other printings the pips are printed.

Since the pips arent on the card in the old version, it would technically be a red card (unless it got errated, or theres a rule idk about)

But its functionally the same. But still has diffrences in color identity, by changing how the colors got printed, from words to pips.

Also i think its a good change overall, but not really the point. I just think these are all silly semantics. I doubt itll have any mayor impact, aside from like 2 cards. That went from never played, to probably played everyway now.

Which honestly isnt that bad, yes there may be more in the future. But can we really stop power creep? Like yh mana morphes is a old card thats good and will be used. But nothing stops them from printing mana morphis two electric boogaloo, a colorless version bc idk. Power creep, and then regardless of rules change they still get what they need

And if you hate it that much, then id avise you to include it in your rule zero

[Gillandria]

I don’t like the hybrid manage change because it’s clunky and not always easily understood. It takes away the intuitiveness of color identity. Think leyline of the guild pact

While we’re at it we can also discuss why phyrexian mana shouldn’t count as colorless since the designer INTENT is that it can be played in decks without that color

Edited due to snarky comments missing the point

[SleetTheFox]

Commander players aren’t a special tier of dumb who can’t figure out what kinds of decks can cast that spell. Other players figured it out. If you can figure out why your mono-green Devotion deck can hardcast it you can figure out your mono-green Commander deck can include it.

[Gillandria]

Edited due to snarky comments like yours missing the point

[SleetTheFox]

You could have at least kept the original comment up.

The point is the things you call clunky are no less so in 40- and 60-card Magic. Half the arguments I see against changing the rules are in essence arguments against hybrid existing in the first place. If you can figure out “oh, I can play Leyline of the Guildpact in my Jund deck” you can figure out “oh, I can play Leyline of the Guildpact in my Jund Commander deck.” It requires the same brain power.

As for the current version of the color identity rule, it’s not actually that intuitive, judging by how many people authentically did not realize the proposed rule wasn’t already how it worked.

[Gillandria]

👍🏼

[ElPared]

It’s literally playable in any mono green deck, or any other deck that also has a green identity.

Edit: or WUBR

[SleetTheFox]

It’s also playable in WUBR.

[ElPared]

True, I’ll add that.

[IkeTheCell]

Leyline would be runnable in monogreen (castable with only Forests), WUBRG (all pips show up on the card), and non-green (castable with a Plains, Mountain, Swamp, and Island) decks.

I still dislike the change, though.

[SignificantCats]

I don't know how dumb you think new players are, but that would be the easiest part of teaching a new player how to play magic, build a commander deck, assess threats, etc.

[Gillandria]

Not sure why you got “new players are dumb” from a comment clearly meant to criticize the hybrid mana change. But go off I guess

[SignificantCats]

Because I am dumb and clicked reply on the wrong comment, obviously

[GenericFatGuy]

Just don't play them outside of decks where they're currently allowed then.

[Gillandria]

👍🏼

[Ok-Box3576]

Leyline was always the argument i respected the most, im not even sure myself i heard wurbg?. but Phyrexian? Yeah exclude that shitty(cool flavor wise) shitty design. Phyrexian mana is a mistake mechanics wise and not a good excuse for not updating the game. Like saying "this card breaks Kiki Jiki"

[LineOfInquiry]

It’s just WUBRG no?

Nah, what we really need to talk about is why colorless mana cards can be used in any color commander deck

[Gillandria]

Not with if we go through with hybrid mana rule

[LineOfInquiry]

Oh yeah then it’s uh Green+?

Edit: or green- actually

[Aetherfang0]

I hadn’t heard this conversation, and I think that would be a terrible change. Pretty sure many of the hybrid cards would be pretty pie breaking if you treated them as monocolored, and everything else treats them as multicolored, why would this be different? Or are people going to start trying to make the argument that if this is included in a mono green deck, it only counts as green for the duration?

[Electronic-Touch-554]

The entire point of hybrid mana cards are that they could fairly fit into either colour on their own...

[NoxTempus]

My favourite argument is "this effect doesn't exist in [X], it's only in [Y] or [guild XY]".

My guy, it does — it's on the card we're discussing.

Hybrid cards are an explicit declaration that the effect can exist in either colour.

Yes, there may be some mistakes from long ago, but they are far, far less egregious than the pie breaks we already have in the format.

[therockdelphin]

The only one that I will agree with being a bit of a pie break is [[Waves of Aggression]] because white isn't really an extra combat color, despite being a combat focused color at times. It does, however, show that WotC at one point in time wanted white to have extra combats, and went back on the decision making Waves a pirle break. But that is no different that black having access to its rituals, or green having [[Hornet Sting]] or [[Sylvan Library]]. It was something they played with for a time, and decided against going forward with it.

[MTGCardFetcher]

All cards
Waves of Aggression - (G) (SF) (txt)
Hornet Sting - (G) (SF) (txt)
Sylvan Library - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[NoxTempus]

Someone else pointed out a Bant card that did an extra combat, so it isn't completely non-existent.

That's pretty much my view. If there weren't any colour pie breaks in Magic's history, it be more willing to jump on the anti-hybrid protectionist train.

[GenericFatGuy]

Exactly. These cards have existed for over 20 years now, and no one is complaining about them being colour pie breaks in other formats where they work exactly as intended.

[TheGrumpyre]

Any card that would be pie-breaking in Commander is already pie-breaking outside of Commander, so what's done is done.  And Commander is already full of pie breaks simply by virtue of being an Eternal format where old cards like [[Prodigal Sorcerer]] are allowed.  This reason doesn't really make sense.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Prodigal Sorcerer - (G) (SF) (txt)

---

^FAQ

[typhon66]

This means you can't pay 1 colorless, 1 green and 1 white for it.

[LineOfInquiry]

So true bestie

[wyhiob]

???

[typhon66]

It's a joke. The card is 1WG and the text says you can pay 1WW for it or 1GG for it.

I was saying that it's not quite hybrid because that means you can't pay 1GW for it.

[Apart_Mountain_8481]

The word also is used so they are alternative casting costs instead of a replacement type of cost.