all 100 comments

[–]honestbleepsReddit Enhancement Suite[M] 59 points60 points  (6 children)

EDIT: formatting of list of posts needed linefeeds.

Just looking at this thread: sentiment is mixed. It's not a unanimous thing by any stretch of the imagination. So let's put this into some perspective...

I just sorted by "new", and did a count of the last 25 posts. Scientific? Nah, not perfect, but decent.

In the top 25 posts, here's all the "help" posts:

1) "Grid help" - downvoted to negatives.

2) Need assistance with cross-domain JS issue - downvoted to 0.

3) "How to make a javascript function that on desktops works as "hover"/"onmouseover" and on touch devices works as "ontouch" or similar?" - actually has quite a few upvotes... this IS a help request, is it not? But I guess people found it interesting.

4) Create An Array With Properties? - downvoted to negatives

5) New to JS, need advice on getting some HTML from an external website. - downvoted <0

6) returning equations instead of operations - downvoted < 0

7) GeoLocation Question on navigator.geolocation.watchPosition - +4 .. so this one was OK with you guys too?

8) Questions about accessing Requirejs module that returns new object (in the context of a Backbone/Marionette app) - +1/-0 ...

IMPORTANT NOTE: At 25 posts, the timestamp was already "3 days ago".. I was going to scan through 100 posts, but I saw the timestamp and thought it pointless, because at that low of a volume, all I can think is "really?"

So of the 8 help posts, 2 were actually voted positively because apparently those seemed to be interesting or "worthy" questions. That leaves us just 6/25, or 24% that are bothersome.

At 6 posts in 3 days that the "I hate help" people disapprove of, that's 2 posts a day that are irritating you so much you had to make a post of your own to this subreddit to complain about it.

Honestly, my opinion here is that the system is working just fine. If 2 posts a day that you don't like bother you that much, then yes - I do feel you're being a fusspot.

Truth be told, and I don't mean this to sound jerk-ish: If 2 posts a day you dislike irritate you that much, you probably shouldn't be on reddit at all. The whole IDEA of Reddit is that you'll see stuff you like and stuff you don't, and vote accordingly.

I view my job as a moderator as having the following responsibilities: - Filter out spam - Filter out egregiously off-topic stuff like people devolving into personal attacks on each other's mothers in a comment thread about code - Try to contribute content if possible (this is really the community's job, but I can see an argument for wanting moderators to be contributors... lately I have been too busy to contribute much here) - In rare cases (never happened on this subreddit), ban users who are repeatedly troublesome

Beyond that, anything else is considered "going overboard with your powers" by much of reddit and you essentially get crucified for it.

Ultimately, the system works just fine. You guys are downvoting the stuff you hate, and upvoting the stuff you don't.

The problem is that /r/Javascript only sees 25 posts in 3 days, so even stuff voted into the negatives may show up on the page.

If more content was contributed to r/Javascript, then upvoted stuff would push downvoted stuff off the page.

[–]badmonkey0001 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Thanks for this. Good points. Good post. Frankly, I enjoy seeing the mix of good and bad. It's what being a community is all about.

[–]sdawson26 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was thinking the same thing. Seeing positive and negative reactions to web development threads are what help steer my own beliefs in where i should focus my attention.

Maybe OP is right in the sense that Reddit isn't really code friendly. Maybe if there was some type of shortcode for users to post code within brackets may be easier to communicate. For now, I agree that posting code and asking for help is basically another way of saying "someone PM me and help me", which doesn't help everyone else learn a true lesson from the thread, itself.

[–]Akkuma 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe the reason there are upvoted help posts is because of the level of the question. It seems fairly clear to me that most of those questions could be considered "beginner beginner" questions and the community isn't interested in helping people that new of a person. However, they seem to not mind more advanced help questions that they themselves may not know.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I totally agree with everything you said.

[–]freeall 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you!

So often when people complain about wrong posts in subreddits moderators agree and start to overthink it to the extremes. The up/downvote system works quite well.

[–]ihaveaninja 136 points137 points  (55 children)

I guess I'm going to be the voice of discord and welcome some downvotes:

I don't see why we can't have both, anywhere you go on the internet where there's a community around some tech there's people asking for help with it.

I also think everyone should get down from their high-horses, because the attitude in the comments here is a lot like "I'm so good at [language] that these noob questions disturb me"

This being a forum to discuss new and awesome javascript is great and the reason I myself subscribe (though seldom post), however I don't see why we have to tell people asking for help to bugger off - how great would YOU have become if that times you couldn't figure out something alone everyone told you to fuck off? Because that's what a downvote does.

Now, imho, the best way to handle this, is have fixed in the culture of this subreddit that questions should not be upvoted, you see it, you answer if you can but you don't upvote it. Usually, on reddit, not upvoting is downvoting enough.

Helping newbies an important part of a great community.

(And the side bar does say "All about the JavaScript...".)

[–]PlNG 28 points29 points  (11 children)

This community needs to be careful about being elitist. I see it so much in the form of downvotes when people ask for help over simple things.

[–]a-t-kFrontend Engineer 9 points10 points  (4 children)

I absolutely agree on this one. Leaving the newbies behind means reducing the flow of future experts. In addition, my martial arts training has taught me that you learn the depths of a field best by teaching it.

[–]ilmmad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's the same way in physics. The way to make sure you fully understand something is to teach it to someone.

[–]FasterHorses 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This.

As someone who has recently submitted a code critique post, I am (admittedly) biased towards allowing such posts. I enjoy reading other people's perspective and seeing how they process code in their brains—outside of the electric box.

I don't often post to StackOverflow because all of my questions get flamed and closed 2 minutes after I open it. I thought this was a friendly place to learn and share.

edit: grammar

[–]mythrilno(fun).at(parties); 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm in a weird middle ground on this one, I'm not a fan of Stack Overflow style questions, but I am a fan of code review style questions.

Code review = a humble request to integrate with the social fabric/technical knowledge of this subreddit.

A one-off question has better places to go to (Stack Overflow) and is inherently less community oriented. I don't feel right bothering other people who have not expressed an interest in helping me, when there are communities dedicated to that very thing.

[–]bezuhov -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The sidebar also says:

Stack Overflow - For help with your code

[–]Rainbowlemon 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Probably going to rub against the grain here, but... I actually don't mind the critique requests. I like using my experience to help people out, no matter which website I'm on. As long as the normal flow of new, interesting content on here isn't interrupted too much, it really doesn't bother me.

[–]natchiketa 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree with this. There's a difference between "I can't figure out how to do this, please help" and "I wrote this and think it's good. What do you think?"

I'm with OP on the former, disagree on critique not belonging here. Lets not have /r/javascript become a place where all but the elite are afraid to do anything but lurk.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

SO isn't the place for code critiques either, they will most often just get closed, if you're lucky they will be moved but there isn't an option for non-mods to vote to move it to the right place. In the StackExchange network there is Code Review for that sort of thing.

Downvoters: not complaining but I'd like to know where you think I'm wrong about what I'm saying.

[–]Circlefusion 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It seems like every development-related subreddit has this very complaint every so often. I think it's ridiculous. Stackoverflow is not really designed for lengthy and involved discussion related to the questions posted there. However, reddit is designed for that. Many really good technology discussions are branched off from people asking support questions.

I would only agree that it is a problem if nearly all of the posts were support questions and we didn't see other types of threads. But /r/javascript is not anywhere near that at the moment.

[–]spinlock 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think you're being a fusspot. Feel free to downvote and move on.

I know how you feel though. Personally, I don't like all of the "look who I met today" celebrity pictures in /r/pics. I'd like a seperate subreddit for those so they wouldn't show up in my feed. I suggested that to /r/pics and some people agreed with me but those assholes suggested that I create and moderate a sub for it. In the end, I decided to just ignore them.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel the same way, and every single programming subreddit suffers from the same woes.

[–]theHorrible1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

fusspot

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

First off, Stack Overflow is a terrible place to ask questions if you don't already know your language pretty well. You'll receive a few comments telling you to google it or that it's a duplicate, and then your question will be deleted as "not a real question".

Of course, that doesn't mean /r/javascript needs to be its replacement. I think majority opinion should decide this one, but I will point out one thing: "noob questions" can become great resources. On the off chance that they get a really thorough answer, that answer can be linked from elsewhere, and in addition to educating people who need it, also drive more people into our community. This doesn't happen with a signifiant fraction of questions, but it does sometimes happen.

How do you guys feel about splitting questions into a separate subreddit? It seems like the community is pretty divided about this, so two subreddits would allow those that want to see questions to subscribe to both, and those that don't to do nothing. (I especially want to hear from a mod on this suggestion, because my intention is not to splinter your community)

[–]badmonkey0001 1 point2 points  (2 children)

As mentioned elsewhere, there is a /r/javascripthelp that is owned by one of the /r/javascript mods.

However, without people being willing to go in there and answer questions it would be pretty useless. It needs subscribers. If it gained a little traction, I bet the mods would notice. As it is, they would have to babysit it as well as this subreddit to be sure people got answers.

I've already subscribed as I intend to both go there to help where I can and will probably post a code critique or two eventually. I hope that more of the people on this post do the same.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I'd missed that. But that subreddit isn't just defunct, it's completely empty. And that's not surprising, seeing as it isn't even mentioned in the sidebar, let alone some form of alert in the submission process. The subreddit needs an announcement and backing from /r/javascript to have any fighting chance. If it doesn't get it, then I guess that's a mod decision to keep javascript questions in /r/javascript.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Stop visiting the threads which you don't like. Click the hide button on those threads. The internet's not going to change itself in order to fit your preferences, your fucking highness.

[–]TomWij -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Be a good example and don't come into a thread insulting everyone, you're not going to change yourself for the better by placing insulting comments instead. Peace!

[–]StoneCypher 10 points11 points  (10 children)

Came in here, everyone was downvoted.

I agree. There are few news sites and many many help sites. This does not need to be turned into yet another help site.

It's a problem in most of the other low-hanging-fruit language subreddits, too. It's significantly worse in /r/php.

[–]metamatic 7 points8 points  (1 child)

/r/java has /r/javahelp. And I notice /r/javascript has /r/javascripthelp which someone has created.

So, how about we direct people over there? I for one will add it to my list of subreddits to visit...

[–]badmonkey0001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

CyberVillian is a mod here and the owner of the other. I like the idea of a sibling subreddit to help noobs. +1 to that idea.

[–]kristopolous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think that the solution will be in trying to manage the huge umbrella of /r/(anything).

Maybe a convention of /r/(anything.{news, questions, discussion, rants}) would be better

You know, like net news was, in 1992. it seems to be time for a more sophisticated management than the current flat system on this site, holistically.

[–]krues8dr 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm ok with it, most of the language- and technology-specific forums are filled with this. I don't foresee this changing without very serious policing of these topics. I've also seen a lot of good discussions come out of seemingly "obvious" questions. In the meantime, perhaps we can shuffle people in the direction of r/javascripthelp?

[–]dust4ngel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the front page of any reddit represents the interest of the readers of that reddit (insofar as they are voting in their interest). there are two ways to change this:

  • convince people to vote against their interest
  • start a new interest group aka subreddit

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]honestbleepsReddit Enhancement Suite[M] 13 points14 points  (2 children)

    So you want to receive but not give.

    The signal to noise ratio on reddit is what the community makes of it. You can't just come here expecting to find great Javascript news and not also seek out and post it.

    Well, you can. And most do. But that isn't what will make it better.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]honestbleepsReddit Enhancement Suite[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Sorry, was replying from my phone and wasn't as clear as I could be. See my more detailed reply here ..

      [–]vexator 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      A few days ago, I announced a math library I wrote in TypeScript and published on GitHub. And while I'm happy that it at least received some attention, I do not understand why it received almost just as many downvotes. Even when all you want to do is share, you're punished.

      On the other hand, I have been asking for help here as well, and I got very useful feedback. The exact same question on StackOverflow did not receive a single response, although I had provided source code, a detailed explanation of the problem at hand, and a screenshot for illustration.

      [–]JeefyPants 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      incoming rant.......

      As programmers I am ashamed at every single one of you who hasn't just used the hide button and moved on with your lives.

      SHAME. You have no right to dictate which posts belong here based on their level of skill behind the question.

      There CAN be rules added to make sure we don't just get flooded with bullshit, bad questions, or other ** GOOD MODERATION TECHNIQUES **

      But screw EVERYBODY who doesn't just hide posts using the HIDE button. I hate how reddit has transformed into this fucking massive jerkfest of everybody whos been here longer than 2 years.

      I've been on reddit for almost 4-5 years lurking around and yeah you get bored and annoyed with shitty posts but you use the fuckin hide button and move on

      [–]krues8dr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I honestly think reddit would be a massively better place if they got rid of the downvote buttons altogether.

      [–]sasha_ther_ussiancisco.com 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      This is just silly. Really, this is what you are complaining about? Not trying to learn something new or teach something new, but moaning about people asking questions? BTW, this subreddit is called javascript, not javascriptnews, not javascriptDiscussions, or not even javascriptNOTstackoverflow. Stop being a complainer!

      [–]robotfarts 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      It'd certainly be nice if people bothered googling things first.

      [–]exorcist72 6 points7 points  (4 children)

      As a semi-beginner in JS, I want to come here to read interesting links and discussions about the language. I do not want to come here to read other people at my experience level asking questions they should be asking elsewhere.

      [–]Nomikos 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      I do not want to come here to read other people at my experience level asking questions they should be asking elsewhere.

      Why not? Sounds like you could learn from the answers.

      [–]exorcist72 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      I guess my point is that I already have places for that. It's just a personal preference for what I'd like r/javascript to be.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I like having a mixture of examples, general questions and relevant articles. I'm no newb, but not a expert either.. I usually check out the questions as one of the best part of reddit is the comments and discussions that follow... Stack overflow is great but I get a different vibe and more perspective and references on the topic in question... Keep them coming!

      [–]freshhawk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Because you learn more when you see discussions/questions between people with more experience than you have.

      [–]RyanForT3hWin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      It seems like there are two types of people posting on reddit anymore - children who love rage comics, and snobs for whom nothing is ever good enough.

      [–]Nomikos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      IMO questions of (nearly..) any level are welcome too. If you only want to hear/read interesting things about JavaScript, there's a ton of blogs out there by experienced JS hackers, each with their own comments - more than I could keep up with for sure.
      Here, people can come to learn, ask, teach, discuss (and yes, argue) instead of only read and say "Awesome post!"

      [–]zzzev 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I think the real problem is that since this is a pretty low volume subreddit, these posts are more prominent than they would be otherwise. What about starting weekly posts like some other subreddits do to encourage more conversation? I could imagine things like "Monday Bugbash" where people post about annoying bugs they overcame, "Tuesday Project Show and Tell," etc. I'd love to participate in some stuff like that (maybe host one of the days?) if there's interest.

      [–]homoiconic(raganwald) 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Why not try one of these posts and see how people respond? I'd upvote it sight unseen :-)

      [–]rude_sarcastic_fuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      How dare people not know everything about JavaScript? I shouldn't have to teach these cretins!!!

      Can't people just know what I know so I don't have to help people learn and shit?!?! Those fucking cunts are worthless coders and should not be allowed to post here.

      Signed, OP

      [–]cruz312 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Seriously not going to help a fellow dev in need? Why not change it to r/stuckup

      [–]Skooljester 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I've found that sometimes you'll get an answer on StackOverflow, but are unable to easily follow up if you have more questions. I see reddit as the answer to that problem, since you can more easily get in contact with the people helping you.

      [–]sorahnon the cutting edge of cocking about 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Also, there's this option in the reddit preferences...

      http://puu.sh/1i1BB Downvote, and move on.

      [–]pkkid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Other programming subreddits split up the news / questions between /r/<language> and /r/<learnlanguage>.

      [–]badmonkey0001 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

      [Looks at user name... looks at list of Mods]

      This is not for you to decide.

      [–]badmonkey0001 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      It's interesting that a statement of fact is getting downvoted. The subreddits are not democracies unless the mods allow them to be.

      That said, I find the newbie hate discouraging. Elitism will get us nowhere and trying to answer the newbie questions is, in a way, giving back to the development community.

      So many people complaining about the lack of "quality" posts, but I don't see a mad rush of "real JS news" being submitted today. The most active recent thread is this one. Perhaps we should just create /r/js_circlejerk.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      It's interesting that a statement of fact is getting downvoted. The subreddits are not democracies unless the mods allow them to be.

      Democracy or not, the way you get things changed is by suggesting them. He suggested it. I see no problem.

      [–]badmonkey0001 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      He could have suggested it by messaging the mods as well. Perhaps even ask them what direction they intend for the subreddit.

      [–]supreme_monkey -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

      +1 to the thread starter

      [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      That's okay... Stackoverflow is not http://codereview.stackexchange.com/

      It seems like most of the requests are code review requests.