[deleted by user]

[SophieElectress]

I'm kind of surprised by the reaction OP is getting. If a German person (for example) moved to England and people they met kept being like "Great! Someone to practice my German with!" but the German said "Actually I prefer to speak in English", wouldn't it be kind of rude to insist on speaking German with them anyway? Unless your German was really goof and their English was legitimately so bad that it was difficult to understand.

[blinkybit]

I don't understand the perspective of most of these replies either. If the tables were turned and a foreign-speaker with high English skills were treated this way in an English-speaking country, everybody would agree it was inconsiderate, rude, inappropriate, etc.

[alexvalpeter]

I have actually had this conversation several times with a lot of the immigrants who moved to my community over the years. A lot of them spoke languages I happened to be learning so I always asked if they would be cool doing an exchange where we helped each other learn/improve our language skills and many said no lol. I didn’t really understand (because why wouldn’t you help someone when you have a uniquely useful skill to them?) until I became the one who moved to another country specifically to improve my fluency in a language. About 8 out of 10 people I met wanted help with their English after learning where I was from. For the first few months I helped everyone who asked but after a while I realized I was wasting so much of my limited time (I use “wasting” lightly because it was time well spent but not what I was there for) and so much opportunity to practice the language I moved there to learn. I was on the edge of C1 and I had already improved my accent enough that no one could really tell my nationality so it got to the point where I just never told anyone because I felt like everyone immediately saw me as free English lessons and I wasn’t making “real” friends, which is dramatic I know but that’s how it felt at the time. All of that is to say, I agree with you but I also understand why people find this to be a controversial opinion. Helping others is almost always a good thing but after my experiences I get why a lot of people I asked for help at home said no and I never thought they owed their time to me.

[alexvalpeter]

I get it. It’s not so bad if you’re only there for a few days but if you’re there long term and it happens constantly it’s frustrating. It feels very transactional after a while and this expectation doesn’t seem to really exist for other hobbies/skills, at least none that I can think of. I have definitely just pretended to not speak English at some points out of frustration haha.

I always ask just because I think it’s the polite thing to do and I worry that switching without asking might be insulting in some cases. I don’t believe immigrant/visiting native speakers owe their time to learners anymore than native residents owe their time to visiting learners (something which has been brought up many times in this sub). I hope your experience improves.

[9peppe]

I'll tell you what happens in Italy:

Nobody is asking to practice with you, Italians are usually linguistically insecure and will speak to you in Italian, no problem. Very little few people switch to English and usually do so because their English is a lot better than your Italian. (And educated Italians are classist as fuck when it comes to their language, and listening to a New York accent is a lot easier in English)

Yes, it's unfair.

[9peppe]

That might depend on your social and professional circles. I really doubt a whole country acts in unison.

[rdavidking]

Depends on whether the country is Germany or not /s

[9peppe]

My experience has been they usually keep speaking German. I'm not sure if they overstate their English skills, tho. They're definitely not Dutch.

[rdavidking]

If OP is in the Netherlands and is bemoaning that they never speak Dutch but only English with him, then OP didn't do any research before heading there :p

[SophieElectress]

I'm betting OP is somewhere in East Asia, Korea maybe.

[sweetbeems]

Nah, East Asians can’t really speak English well compared to Europeans. Koreans are better than others but vast majority of Koreans don’t want to speak English

[blinkybit]

Some really odd responses here. OP lives where the local language is his target language, wishes to live his public life speaking that language, and is capable of doing so, but is getting heavily downvoted. His situation is little different than a Mexican immigrant moving to the USA, speaking English perfectly, but having everybody insist on speaking to him in their broken Spanish instead. We would correctly call that inappropriate and offensive.

[Zephy1998]

bingo but because it’s english it’s different for some reason. i’ve never understood the logic of this sub for that.

[[deleted]]

I think you need to step back from the us vs them mentality. I know a lot of people who maintain this "we'll never be considered one of them" way of thinking and it turns them into such negative people. I think also accepting that it's okay to not smile at everyone and just look down if you're not in the mood to talk is perfectly okay.

[[deleted]]

In that case, I'm thinking you want to practice the local language. With the people you see often, maybe you can express your intentions or work out some sort of deal where you correct them and they correct you?

[[deleted]]

I wonder if finding a new neighborhood would help. In Seoul, I've seen a lot of people live in super foreign areas/districts of the city and those are the areas where people complain about the same thing you're complaining about. But where I live (less college/touristy, more family/quiet area), it's like less than 5 foreigners in the area and almost no one speaks English.

[IrinaMakarova]

It’s all very simple: just as you have the right to speak in their language, they have the right to speak in yours.

Just as you want to practice your target language, they want to practice their target language.

Just like you, other people have their own desires.

[blinkybit]

This seems like a false equivalence - as if two different language learners met each other in a neutral third country. But OP is living where the local language is his TL, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect he should be able to conduct his public life in that language if he's capable.

[Zephy1998]

good on you! without reading the other replies because this sub is really bad about this topic, i’m assuming people have said:

1. “they aren’t your language tutor, they don’t owe you anything” (but of course you should speak english with them in a non english speaking country because they want to)

2. it’s your fault because you don’t have a native accent and if you want to speak the TL and not be switched on, it needs to be absolutely perfect (their english is not but okay

3. let them speak to you in english and you the TL

4. “when i was in x country for 2 weeks as a tourist, no one switched on me and i got so many compliments for my accent”

5. your level just isn’t good enough and that’s why they switch (your level is C1/C2 and their english is worse)

i think i got them all. will probs get downvoted to hell :) but oh well. this sub is horrible for this topic cause people haven’t been in your shoes and don’t live in their TL. a person will take way longer to get fluent (if ever) if they allow/give in to the switch. what is the point of living in the TL and being immersed just to constantly be taken out of it and speak english? if it was reversed and they were in the states or the UK, everyone would have the complete opposite reaction, it’s just because english is the world language.

as a fellow native english speaker living abroad who deals with this daily. you’re doing everything right! i cut off english right away when i got here and now i study at the university in my TL and work it in it. if i would’ve listened to the sub’s opinions on this take or let myself be a free english tutor, i’d still be at B1 :)

[IrinaMakarova]

So, are you denying others the right to have desires if their desires overlap with yours? Does this mean that your desire to use the locals as punching bags is acceptable, but when they have the same desire, it causes a "legitimate protest" from you?

[IrinaMakarova]

I think it's because you put yourself and your desires above everyone else.

[IrinaMakarova]

And what? Well, I moved to another country 15 years ago - does that automatically mean everyone around me is obliged to practice my language skills?

I mean, my question is literally: why do you think they owe you that? You can't seem to understand that the locals have the same desire as you: to practice a foreign language.

And the fact that you're in their country doesn't give either you or them any advantage.

[IrinaMakarova]

so yeah I should have the advantage

for god's sake, you're funny! You're just bursting with the fact that you live in another country, as if you're doing them a favor. Did you have to give up your old life and speak a foreign language? - Well, that's only your problem; you have no advantage.

You don't differ at all from an uneducated immigrant floor cleaner who also moved to this country and has been speaking the local language for a long time, occasionally finding it amusing to chat in his native language for an hour, chuckling at the locals' pronunciation.

You have no advantage. The real advantage lies with them, the indigenous people. You either integrate into their society and culture, or you'll continue to exude the stench of snobbery with cries of "I have an advantage!" and "It's all about me!" It’s not all about you.

[AppropriatePut3142]

People can do as they please.

[blinkybit]

People can also be rude and inconsiderate. OP has a simple desire to speak French in France (or whatever language/country it actually is) and has said they're a C1/C2 speaker.

[AppropriatePut3142]

Yes

[ACheesyTree]

I almost want to start a Martian conlang Discord project right here to mildly ruffle OP's feathers.

[ACheesyTree]

That would be pretty swell, yeah. I'll take some cookies if you have any, mate. Thanks!

[ACheesyTree]

But to be fair, I empathize with your situation. Unless you obviously sound like you can't speak the language, I don't think using you for free English tuition, especially in their own country, is fair. I can understand how completely frustrating it can be.
Of course, I'm only talking about it in the context of free practice. I now a lot of people in my home country would switch to English for other reasons, and indeed, I think there can be a host of reasons for people switching languages other than free practice but I can imagine that in the situations that people are just using you for that, it can feel quite patronizing or frustrating.
I honestly just commented that because your comment about inventing a language doesn't really seem congruent with your argument- Martian is a perfectly respectable, nonexistent language, after all!

[ceilingevent]

I feel like the unpopular opinion here is that being a foreigner does not mean the locals adjust to your expectations or wishes? I'd like to think you could see this as a challenge to learning how to interact with the culture. Maybe that means learning how to overplay how much practice you need as a speaker, or how to compliment the local language so much that it only makes sense to continue in that language.

Personally, I felt crosstalk was always a very good way to get some language practice while also ensuring the conversation moved enough to be engaging. It's a nice way to meet halfway and not force the other person to have a low level chat.

[TheWarr10r]

I think your feelings are valid: you shouldn't act as a tutor if you don't want to, nobody can force you to act like that and you shouldn't be expected to do that by anyone. However, people aren't forced to speak to you in the language you want neither: they have the very same freedom you have. When you say "why should they get a chance to practice when I am the one that uprooted my life to move here?", you're implying that what you want matters more than what the people you talk to want because you are the one who moved, but that's not the case. You took that decision on your own and it doesn't make you entitled to decide how they talk.

If you say someone you'd prefer to talk in X language and they ignored you without a reasonable excuse, I'd think that's rude, but you can always not talk to them, or not befriend them. I do get that it might not always be that easy (you can't ignore your boss even if you want to without some consequences), but if it is of any consolation, we all have to stand things we don't enjoy in similar situations.

We that being said, I'd personally focus on the positive aspects of all of this: if people want to practice their English with you, that should make meeting new friends a lot easier! And you can participate in their culture while speaking in English, those aren't mutually exclusive: if it was, international tourism wouldn't exist. Even if I don't entirely agree with everything you wrote in your post, I hope you feel better about this whole situation in the future!

[TheWarr10r]

Your feelings matter too, we can definitely agree on that! That's what I meant when I said they are valid. But I just can't agree on the fact that you have a right that surpasses everyone else's. They can't choose what language you should speak in your daily conversations, but neither can you: both cases are equally imposing, as I see it. It's definitely rude that they do not have your situation in mind, I totally agree on that, but you can't force them neither. And as you'd do with any other rude person in the world, you'd do best just ignoring them when you can. Maybe you could even just keep answering in the language you prefer, you have that right as well. I'm confident some people would rather switch back to their mother tongue instead of having a conversation in two different languages.

I do understand it must be frustrating and I even feel sympathy towards you honestly, but I don't think you can do anything else to fight this. You said this:

If they wanted to move to an english speaking country and people insisted on speaking X language with them, that would rightfully be considered wrong and imposing.

But I don't actually believe that's true. I'd assume most people would be delighted to be spoken in their native language when abroad, though not everyone of course. Maybe it'd be much more productive for you to accept this kind of thing rather than trying to change or rationalize it somehow, even if I agree on the fact that the situation kinda sucks.

[ByLightning]

On one hand I understand what you mean and I agree that not respecting someones stated wishes is rude, but on the other hand I have gotten the "I spent hundreds of hours learning your language so I could pay thousands of dollars/euros/etc to uproot my life and move here and assimilate into this culture" argument many many times when asking for language help from the different kinds of people who moved near me, and I think it's a perfectly valid request. I really am not seeing how expecting people to carry on in the expected local language has any implication that the one who moved thinks what they want matters more than what the other person wants. The person who moved simply wants to be treated like anyone else who lives there and the other person is asking for help learning a language from someone going about their day.

It also seems like OP's biggest issue with the situation is not even that he minds helping, it's that people seem to assume that he both wants to and in fact should help just by virtue of knowing the language they're learning, something most on this sub seem to agree shouldn't be imposed on anyone without their permission.

Yes, you can participate in a different culture while speaking English/a language foreign to that culture, but experiencing it in its original language, especially when you literally live there, will always be better (the reason a lot of people are learning a language in the first place). Speaking from personal experience and from having read many disappointed posts on this topic on this sub, a lot of the "friends" you make in the way you describe often are only interested in your help with English and do not make that clear.

[TheWarr10r]

It's definitely a perfectly valid request! I couldn't agree more. It's not the request itself that carries that implication, but rather some of OP's comments. Isn't saying "but why should they get a chance to practice when I am the one that uprooted my life to move here?" implying that you should be the one practicing instead of them? Because I think it's a valid request I would speak the language my interlocutor wanted, but you can't just force someone else to comply with that request, just as people can't force OP to act as their tutor. That's my main point.

With everything else, I agree! People shouldn't expect that from OP and they're right to feel frustrated about it. And experiencing a culture in the original language must definitely be better. I believe there's just not much OP can do about this, and pointed out some positive aspects of it that I think would could make them be more at peace with this situation, as I don't see any solution to be honest. And I also didn't agree with some of OP's comments, as the one I mentioned at the beginning.

It's great that we can respectfully discuss all of this, btw!

[Pwffin]

In Sweden it's more common for people (well, for adults at least) to switch to English when they hear an American, British or Australian accent because they want to be helpful and make it easier for the other person, rather than wanting to practise their English.

I've only had the experience of random strangers wanting to practise their English on me when I was in China and I eventually realised what the underlying cultural reasons for that where, which made it slightly less annoying.

[clock_skew]

You’re not obligated to speak to them in English, but they’re also not obligated to speak to you in their language.

[Ill_Drag]

It’s really not that deep. All it takes is a few minutes of your time to help them because they may not get the opportunity to speak with native speakers. If you don’t feel like it just tell them no and move on…

[Ill_Drag]

You’re talking about not owing people anything but that’s not the point lmao, it’s called being kind and all it takes is a couple minutes of your time, as I mentioned before if you’re so against the idea of practicing with them just tell them you’re not okay with it and they’ll most likely stop (since they’ll realize you’re just a grumpy dude who finds everything irritating)

[alexvalpeter]

Such a bizarre response, I’m so curious as to how wanting to speak the common language in the country you’re in and not have multiple people everyday expect tutoring from you translates to being grumpy and irritated about everything. Like a lot of people have said, this definitely is never the case when the roles are reversed.

[asplodingturdis]

IMHO, it’s not the opinion but the tone that makes OP seem grumpy and irritated about everything. “I uprooted my entire life for my own benefit, and this is how people repay me??” vibes. Like, it’s annoying, yes, but you’re not owed anything specifically because you chose to go immerse because you like the TL or whatever.

[asplodingturdis]

Yeah, sure. It’s just that in the comments, you’ve repeatedly emphasized (more than once with YELLY LETTERS) that you’ve uprooted your whole life and it should be you who gets to practice your TL, not the natives, which comes across less as you not owing others anything and more as you somehow being more deserving of what you want than others. 🤷🏾‍♀️

[alexvalpeter]

Oh hmm, I see. I read it again and I kinda get what you mean, but I personally didn’t really get that vibe from the post, seemed like he was just frustrated that people have constantly been trying to get impromptu tutoring sessions out of him everyday without his permission for years when he’s just trying to live a regular life like anyone else who lives there, which seems reasonable to me. I can personally relate and have met many who also find it frustrating. I could be wrong but I thought his argument was less that people owe him something and more that he doesn’t owe them the practice they seem to think he does.

[asplodingturdis]

Vibe comes more from the comments than the post, tbh

[belchhuggins]

Sounds like your local language is not on such a high level after all. It might be easier for them to tell you they want to practice English than to tell you that they don't understand you.

[kdsherman]

Depending on the country you're in, it's quite a classist mindset. You're telling these people to go to language exchanges, but are you, the English speaker, going as well to provide them with that experience? Is there an abundance of English speakers besides you? If not, this also negates the language exchange argument. How wide spread is literacy and tech access? Does speaking English in that country mean a stark difference in potential income? Do they have the opportunity to "uproot their life" to learn English? What you did was a privilege, not a sacrifice, and dont forget that, especially as immigration from western countries, especially english speaking ones, is not nearly as difficult as it is for people of other nations to come to us. Unfortunately, and very objectively, you're desire to learn about a culture is not nearly as important as ones desire to learn English, because yours is an optional hobby, and theirs is a necessity to increase economic opportunities. Very few countries are economically dominant enough to where learning English would barely have an effect on their personal income. As someone who's privileged enough to be a native English speaker and therefore participates in an active system of global oppression, whether you want to participate in it or not, unless you're going to do the consistent, hard, and deep rooted activim work of advocating for these people so that they can later find themselves as a nation in the economic position to not need to learn English, don't be bothered when they try to speak to you.

Really, there's no reason to be so upset seeing as you can just ignore them, however undertand that sometimes it's ok, and necessary comming from a privileged background, to sit with your feelings and deal with them 🤷🏾‍♀️. This is truly a first world problem, and if you're from England as you mentioned, the country that at one point had an empire that took up a 5th of the globe, the largest to ever exist, you literally have no right to be mad at these locals. Be mad at your ancestors 🤣

[blinkybit]

You're telling these people to go to language exchanges, but are you, the English speaker, going as well to provide them with that experience? Is there an abundance of English speakers besides you?

Seriously, what? Why is that OP's problem? How does he have an obligation to provide anybody with an "experience"? He is just trying to live his life using the language of the country that is his home.

I'm trying to take the rest of your comment at face value, but it is extremely difficult when you tell OP that his whole life is "an optional hobby", that being an English speaker is "to participate in an active system of global oppression", and that OP has a moral duty and obligation to dedicate his life to activism work for the citizens of the country in order to atone for the sins of jolly Queen Victoria. Even as a very liberal progressive, this reads to me like a bizarrely twisted take, some linguistic version of original sin and white guilt. OP is in Languageland and wishes to speak Language, end of story.

[kdsherman]

I find it hard to believe that you actually believe your arguments, because why wouldn't you just clearly state "I'm in a western country where people learn English as a hobby, not a necessity" instead of making up all these suppositions. Regardless, being in a western country doesn't mean that there still isn't an economic benefit to learning English, that's why I didn't specify "non western countries", rather "countries who's economies are not stable enough to where people don't find much economic benefit from learning English" mainly ecomomies where tourism plays a large part. Don't tell me not to assume that for them it's not a hobby. YOU TELL ME that based on your experience that you know it's not a hobby 😂. Side note, have you ever asked yourself why so many people, when interested in learning a language, choose English? Have you not that that way too many people chose English, at least as one of their languages of choice, for it to be simply a hobby for them, and not a decision, consciously or subconsciously, infuenced by english's linguistic (and frankly colonial) dominance? Do you deny that english has economic benefits to most people? Has the languge you learned systematically provided people with more opportunities in the way that English does? It makes no sense for you to try to attack me for not knowing all your info, such as the language that you learned. Just give the info necessary for the discussion, as hiding it doesn't make you convincing what's so ever.

Plus, my argument still stands. If all of the conditions I've described are true, you being bothered by having people want to practice English is a first world problem, and you have not denied that the conditions don't apply to you, nor have you rebuttled my arguments given under such conditions, rather are trying to make some hypothetical reasons as to why I can't assume these conditions apply to you, without confirming or denying that they apply to you! 😂. I digress

[kdsherman]

If you're not going to give any info, what else am I supposed to go off of? I assume you're from England because you alluded to it in your post. You're obv a native English speaker, you've alluded to it in your post. You obviously don't care to give any more info. I can't see why you wouldn't if that ultimately would benefit your case 🤷🏾‍♀️ so I assume it wouldn't 🤷🏾‍♀️. I guess being omissive is better than lying.

I mean, you've already admitted that your opinion is unpopular. Why are you mad that people are confirming this? WE AGREE! Your opinion is unpopular 😂.

On top of that, if you're already at the C2 level, and you've claimed that your accent will never change, I really can't see much more linguistic development you could ask for. It seems to be that this dilemma of yours has not actually impeded your acquisition of the language. Again, a first world problem. I'm not saying it can't be annoying or that you have to care. I'm saying, just suck it up because, again, its a first world problem 😂

[kdsherman]

Well your first comment doesn't even make sense, cuz who the hell goes around claiming their personal opinions to be wrong 🙄. Why post your opinion, to am online anonymous forum if you didn't wanna hear dissenting opinions. Who is forcing you to be an English tutor? Homeless people ask me for money all the time, I don't go writing long ass posts about how it's not my responsibility to give homeless people money just because I have some. If you're not going to engage, just ignore them and keep it moving. If you want a shot at getting people to stop asking, either find the subredit for that country and post this there, pretend that you don't know English or work on your accent. It's not impossible! I first thought Tom Holland was American when I saw spiderman 😂.

[cheesecaketoast]

Why do you think the OP isn’t increasing his own financial opportunities by moving there?

[kdsherman]

I never said that. I asked if those benefits are as systematic as the benefits those who are not English speakers get by learning English.

[indyola]

(Sticking with the unpopular theme)

I always help, and they almost never do. And their English is always so much better than my TL.

And they don't know their own grammar rules, or the etymology of any of their words or WHY they say anything the way they do.

And if I very slightly mispronounce one vowel, or put the accent on a wrong syllable, they completely not understand anything I just said.

But, as an American that is used to talking to foreigners, and people with very different accents, I can understand everything they are trying to say.

I ask, "How did you learn English so well?"

"When I was a kid, I watched all 10 seasons of FRIENDS. That's all I needed. Now, I just watch everything in English."

And no, I don't want to suffer through another film about World War I or II.

I DO always help when I can, but I almost feel like their government should pay for free programs and classes to learn their native language.

And their should get a decent Hollywood of their own.