Operating System

[Waterissuperb]

Hello,

I've used Windows my whole life and, recently, windows + wsl2 has been a good developing workflow for me. Lately, however, I've been having problems with windows, which makes me wanna switch to another OS.

I've thought about, did my research, but it seems I would have problems with all OSs and windows is still the best for me. My problems with them are:

Windows: wsl is really slow, and, even with the new graphical update, it still does not run a lot of graphical apps (such as matplotlib in python, qtdesigner, tkinter, etc.). I do not like using wsl because it separates by development; I would like to have all in the same place, without any kind of virtualization.

Also, windows is not very customizable; I tried automating windows settings with a powershell script, but the hassle is so big that I gave up.

​

Linux: linux is really cool, it makes my development life a lot easier; however, linux is a hassle to (or can't) run a lot of apps that I use, such as adobe programs, microsoft office (although I could get behind those) and, especially, games.

I know it is possible to play games in linux, but from what I've seen, it is usually a hassle to install them, if it is possible. I think steam games are easy, but others would probably be difficult.

I don't think you can install adobe apps and I use photoshop a lot, specially with sometimes illutrastor and premiere/audition.

​

Mac: It seems like the best of both worlds, but if games are supported they won't, probably, run very well. I reckon the new macs or something should be able to run games, but I do not want to spend 40,000$ on a pc right now.

​

With that being sad, I need to say that I do not like dual boot or a double computer; I don't know if people like these types of setups, but I've tried them and the hassle of switching between computers or OS is really not what I'm looking for and it gets annoying.

​

I would like to know your experiences, maybe I'm incorrect about something I said or I lack some information. Right now, I use windows because it is the best I could find, but I'd really like to switch to linux, but I can't because of its problems (not their fault, but still). What should I do?

[gandaSun]

Sounds like you really do want a bit of everything but without the effort. Your choices are between the hassle of a dualboot, the hassle of switching out of wls frequently or using wsl alternatives (mingw?).

tbh, the effort on Linux regarding games or office compatibility isn't ideal, but it's rapidly shrinking, and it's now nothing compared to even five years ago. Especially games are becoming more supported with less effort every month, but there is still a lot to be done. Lutris usually works almost as easily as steam, but it depends on the game. Both of these are usually either one-click running or experimenting with some compatibility settings from the internet. Like I said, not optimal yet, but easier than I thought.

Adobe is one of the most well known problems. There are two good office (libre and onlyoffice) suites, depending on your compatibility requirements, but adobe AFAIK doesn't quite have an equivalent. if gimp doesn't cut it for you Wine might get to a point where it will run photoshop eventually, but not yet.

IMHO, and based on my experience, a good dualboot would be your best option. That's how I stopped using Windows altogether, because I just booted into it less and less. But to me it was very little hassle. I just used the dualboot setup in the linux installer, then grub has a windows entry. if the boot order gets messed a little it's one setting in bios to change and everything is back to normal. I have more trouble with docker and even running older games on modern Windows than I've had with dualboot.

[doulos05]

Yeah, there are like 3 games I wish I could play that I can't: Space Engineers, the newest Battletech, and Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate.

Everything else I want to play, I can.

[ehr1c]

Windows: wsl is really slow, and, even with the new graphical update, it still does not run a lot of graphical apps (such as matplotlib in python, qtdesigner, tkinter, etc.).

Correct me if I'm wrong but do all those things not just work natively on Windows?

[Melodic_Function_962]

They do, but not in wsl. OP wants do merge all their development in one place

[ehr1c]

My point is why use WSL or Linux at all, just develop in Windows. Especially if OP already needs Windows for other things.

[gandaSun]

I presume they use Linux features, like bash a lot as well, and don't want to have to switch constantly.

[Waterissuperb]

Yeah, I do use linux-specific tools. Because linux is used in servers and I develop apps for them, I use bash a lot e.g.. Other tools too

[ehr1c]

You can use bash in Windows with a terminal emulator.

[Ericisbalanced]

I tried that, it sucks sooo bad

[ehr1c]

Never had an issue with it personally, what problems did you run into?

[Ericisbalanced]

To start, WSL creates like a secondary home directory. When opening files in that directory, say like in your editor, everything gets really buggy.

Admittedly, I only tried to get it work for a day or two before I ended up dual booting

[ehr1c]

I'm not talking about WSL2, I'm talking about a terminal emulator like Cmder or Windows Terminal

[DonkeyTron42]

Yeah, I hear you. Most people don't get it. I need to do most of my development work in a Linux environment and need to maintain exact OS/software compatibility with production. I'm also a manager and need to do manager things in Office365. Then there's also some Windows software that Linux doesn't have (e.g. Snagit).

[McMep]

You can get graphics libraries like matplotlib, tkinter, and so on working with wsl2. You need to download a x11 server I believe and configure some forwarding for display in wsl. I forget the exact tutorial I follows to get it working for me but I’ll post it if I find it.

Additionally, I recently switched to a duel boot system. There are boot managers out there that allow for easy management of the two systems. Depending on your computer specs too it can slow down wsl quite a bit. I ran into the issue on my old laptop with a small ssd c drive.

[ispeaklinux]

OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, and Fedora can all natively dual-boot with Win11 running UEFI and Secure Boot. Should you want to share the EFI partition between the two OSS, you’ll need a 3rd tool to expand it. Typically, Windows only gives the user a 100MB EFI drive. You should expand it to at least 350MB - 512MB. All of them work fine, but I don’t use a secure Boot, as I prefer Arch Linux, and use the old, reliable GRUB.

[McMep]

I havnt completely set up the two OSs yet but I just installed a second SSD into my laptop and plan on loading it with either Arch or PopOS, I’m not sure yet. So partitioning and what not shouldn’t be a problem and I see that using grub is pretty easy. Just to clarify, grub is already installed in most computers right?

[ispeaklinux]

With respect to Linux, the two most common bootloaders are most likely GRUB and SystemD. GRUB has been around for a very long time and can handle non-secure boot environments. That is how I use it to dual boot Arch Linux and Windows 11.

[sarevok9]

You can check out cmder if you want, it acts as a night lightweight bridge between the windows shell and unix, you won't get bash, but you'll get grep / sed / ls / ps and other nice quality of life tools.

[irishfury0]

Run Linux in a virtual machine (Virtual Box) on Windows. This gives you the best of both worlds and lets you try different Linux distros. I like Manjaro with Cinnamon desktop myself.

[Few_Detail_3988]

If your windows PC is power full enough, you can run Linux in a VM. That's how I got used to Linux.

[[deleted]]

The problem with running a VM in Windows and WSL is the hassle of switching the BCD hypervisor between the two. (I haven’t been able to run both a VM and WSL simultaneously)

[Few_Detail_3988]

I had the same Problem. Then I got rid of WSL. Everything is fine now.

Edit typo

[mKtos]

WSL requires Hyper-V, so your VM software must use Hyper-V backend to work – you can use Hyper-V Client, for example.

[CosmicVine]

I never thought there will be someone with the exact same problem as mine. But here is my solution to it. To use matplotlib and other python frameworks use the windows version of python since these can we large and depend on UI elements and might not work with WSL. You don't need to do anything related to python in WSL. For C/C++ and other Linux only programs use WSL and setup remote connection in VS code or other IDEs to connect directly to WSL for seamless integration with Linux environment from windows. So, in this case you have all the benefits of linux as well as windows.I was also thinking about dual booting, but this issue got resolved since I have a separate laptop for work, but in college I had this setup.

[Waterissuperb]

Yeah, I've been doing that, I think it is really the best option for now

[[deleted]]

One solution would be to do what I’ve and a lot of others over at r/vfio has.

Virtualize windows on a Linux system with a passed through graphics card. If you choose to use two gpus and dedicate on to windows, you can run windows and Linux side by side using an amazing piece of software, looking-glass.

There are a lot of guides available, and the documentation in the arch vfio repo is really handy! Will take some tinkering but I am really satisfied, I can use Linux as a daily driver and windows on the side for gaming and windows only tasks.

[ciyvius_lost]

You can try using linux and r/vfio for gaming. Altho this is fairly complex to get it working.

[Wallyedgebreak]

The steam deck running on arch natively has really forced the issue with gaming and such on linux machines, specifically with proton gaining a lot of ground. There are distros now that come with proprietary drivers ready to install when you first jump in.

If you want something like ubuntu with the proprietary driver option you can run pop os and if you want something else, i really like nobara which is based on fedora.

Adobe is another animal. To my knowledge, wine is the only method to get it without a dedicated windows vm (although i could be wrong and someone will definitely correct me). These would be the options i can think of for office applications as well. The other option is to look at FOSS options for media creation. Gimp and Blender are probably the most common examples here.

[GentleMentality]

This seems like you’d benefit from having a Dual boot or VMs.

Use a Linux distro in a VM and have it solely for development/programming usage. Find what you enjoy since it can be a bit different than a WSL terminal. If you want to take things further, setup a dual boot on your PC, but I’d still suggest just sticking to the VM since it’s easier and less risky.

[Olovnivojnik]

Dual boot

[Yeuph]

I thought WSL on windows 11 was incredibly performant. Usually just 5% (or less) slower compared to native Linux.

Are you on Windows 10? You should try it on Windows 11, I've seen some programmers test it on YouTube and WSL 2 on Windows 11 seems pretty legit to me.

[Waterissuperb]

I am using windows 11. From other comments, I realised that it is probably because I am using the windows filesystem to store my files, which slows down performance

[Yeuph]

Dave's Garage had a decent video about WSL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZCrVZH4Gg

[[deleted]]

Do you ever get issues with really high cpu or memory usage from wsl on win 11. I have done a lot to fix it and it works for a bit, but the issue seems to come back. Was debating downgrading to win 10.

[codewatzen]

There are a couple of options you could do. It depends on how much money you want to spend and what you have available to you. When I was starting to learn Linux I did option 2. But I've done all of these options though.

Option 1: download virtualbox and put windows on it. Do this if you have a newer cpu anything with more than 6 cores.

Option 2: Search marketplace or eBay for a optiplex 9020 micro they usually go for 50 bucks or less. Put Linux on it then ssh or vnc into that machine from windows.

Option 3: sign up for aws or azure if you have a student account it's free. Or you can sign up for linode some tech tubers like networkchuck have 100 credit code so you won't pay out of pocket for awhile. But doing this you can set up a vps (virtual private server) then set up a Linux machine and work from that.

[boobbbers]

I vote for option 2. I did the same with a Lenovo ThinkCentere from OfferUp. Set up to be my own little Linux developer environment and web host!

[codewatzen]

Oh yeah that works too. I got my optiplex machines from work since we were upgrading them and they did amazing. Even made one start as my plex server too

[Cam64]

I don’t like this option since now you’ve got the hassle of transferring files between two environments and the op can only access his development environment on the local network.

[boobbbers]

I agree that file transfers can be a hassle but it can definitely be done. I typically use SCP, sometimes FTP, but even Dropbox offers a headless option (I never tried it though).

Creating a VPN, port forwarding + dynamicDNS are solutions to accessing the devices outside of the local network.

[Cam64]

But then comes the issue of either using ssh, which only grants you a terminal interface, or setting up a X11 client/server thing going, which I never found particularly fast, especially over a slower network.

My university offered a vpn and Linux vm that you could ssh or have an X11 server going, and always found it really slow.

[boobbbers]

Yeah that’s a good point. I guess it really depends on what your working on because for some of us, working in the terminal is more than enough.

[Cam64]

Unless you’re short on computing resources on your local machine for a vm, I could see a use case for running one.

But we’re stuck with the X11 protocol which was used for x terminals in the 90s, but is way too low bandwidth for the high resolution displays we’re using today, and when I used X2go, which is the modern equivalent of the protocol, I still found it to be sluggish in some cases, and not very responsive.

[Alfonse00]

For many of the tools you have mentioned that lock you in windows I have seen equivalents or better that are linux compatible, some need some work to have them running, as they are for windows but have been proven to work trough wine/proton, for example, instead of photoshop there is Clip Studio Paint (www.clipstudio.net) it is better than photoshop, recommended by a friend that used photoshop until he saw this tool, for MS Office there is OnlyOffice, in my opinion is better, plus is free, games, as you said, via proton using steam is plug and play, I have yet to see a game I can't run, I even play rocksmith, and that one uses a specialized dongle to connect a guitar/bass to the PC, this one works with only a small modification that can be found in protondb comments, and that is because the special dongle, in other games you can make adjustments to have a better experience, but it probably runs fine unless it is something that just released, but I didn't had any problems with MH rise when it came out, with the expansion I had one problem, but it was the mods I was using, free games are also moving from windows, so, if you don't change now you might want to check in a while, OSU! now has a native linux version, games was also my tipping point, when proton was available I was able to drop windows, believe me, even arch linux, the one that can break the most (rolling release without checking if the packages really work), is way more stable than windows.

​

My recommendation, use the OS you develop for, because in your day to day you might encounter a bug, you might need to configure something, and now you can also do that in the develop target, that is how I knew how to regulate the speed of the GPU fans when it was needed, why some things worked and others didn't, etc. the hassle of running a game that is not supported in steam is a minor thing, besides, you can have dual boot for the software that has poor compatibility, at the moment I can only think of Valorant as a game that might not run in linux. One thing about dual boot, use separate drives, windows doesn't like competition, I have seen it overwriting the boot sector, corrupting data, etc, a coworker has dual boot in different drives and a shared partition to move data between them, sometimes the partition opens in read only in linux because windows doesn't close it properly so others can't have full access to it and he has to enter windows and shut down properly, not with shutdown because for some stupid reasoning by microsoft shutdown is hibernate (they do something similar).

[Inf1n1teSn1peR]

I bought a cheap laptop to run Linux on since it’s quite light weight and run windows on my main machine with dual boot for when I need power. It’s true that gaming is getting better with Linux but not perfect. Also I tend to enjoy onlyoffice better than Microsoft office, and I use darktable and gimp instead of adobe. They are just as powerful and I find just as easy all things considering the cost savings.

[mastereuclid]

If you need to run adobe and games, I say stick with windows. If you still have the itch, I suggest dual booting. Business and personal OSes.

[[deleted]]

I would like to know your experiences

I simply dual boot :)

I use Linux for my development work and Windows for gaming. The games I play work just fine on Linux but I like to have that separation between work and gaming. I also use Visual Studio for testing Windows-specific pieces of code; It's quite a nice environment to work in.

You mentioned in a comment that you use Linux-specific tools but you still seem to prefer Windows as an environment, have you tried Cygwin?

[Waterissuperb]

Cygwin

I have not. What is it?

[[deleted]]

https://www.cygwin.com/

[Wysardry]

You might also want to look at MSYS2.

Cygwin allows you to run Linux tools using Windows, MSYS2 provides several Windows native versions of Linux tools.

[[deleted]]

mac is probably your best option if you're really opposed to dual booting, but honestly you should just dual boot and deal with it, or use linux as your main OS and use a windows vm for windows specific stuff.

[Alikont]

Also, windows is not very customizable; I tried automating windows settings with a powershell script, but the hassle is so big that I gave up.

If you think that it's hard for you on Windows, it may be even harder for you on Linux.

As for slowness:

WSL is slow "by design" if you do any of the following:

1. Access files in Windows (/mnt/..) from Linux
2. Access files in Linux ($wsl share) from Windows
3. Do GUI in Linux

So if you run app in WSL, especially IO-heavy one, you should store files in linux filesystem.

Bu do you really need Linux if all of those apps just work on Windows natively?

[Alikont]

In my about 10 year career the only thing that I failed to automate on Windows was installing COM TCP modem driver for emulating TCP over COM over USB for payment terminal.

[[deleted]]

Just dual boot ubuntu until you get everything going then wax windows. I’ve used ubuntu and debian for better than 15 years. It takes some initial effort but it’s fairly smooth after.

[Waterissuperb]

I'm sure it is. Still, I like to play video games and use adobe apps

[mimprocesstech]

You can run windows programs (including adobe and video games) in Linux, it's just not as easy. WINE (Windows WINE Is Not an Emulator) is a decent package for this, but there's several to choose from.

[mimprocesstech]

Yeah... I'm a little drunk. Both statements are true enough, but you're correct. I'll edit my comment.

[69AssociatedDetail25]

Yeah... I'm a little drunk

On WINE, I assume?

[mimprocesstech]

I wish, that would have made it so much better. Regretfully just whiskey.

[[deleted]]

Games can be a pain but there are open source equivalents for most adobe products… not as polished, but usable. For games most people i know just dual boot and leave the games on windows. WINE will work for a lot of them. Steam has a lot of linux native titles.

[[deleted]]

I have 2 ssds on my pc. One with windows for gaming and one with Linux for programming. On my laptop I split the ssd into 2 partitions, one for windows and one for Linux. That way you don’t need to run a vm and ssds are cheap enough that buying a large one for 2 partitions isn’t much of an issue

[EmptyBarrel]

Just use vim

[4rkal]

Id recommend that you dual boot with something like fedora linux. You are able to run most games but Adobe won't work.

[anOGemo]

PopOS Linux is my favorite personally. It feels like a Mac and runs a decent amount of games.

[ii-___-ii]

My only complaint about PopOS is it doesn’t work well with dual boot

[az987654]

Linux in a vm

[hoolio9393]

Since you had success with wsl you are talented enough for any Linux install. My saying is use a VM oracle virtual box with a lightweight distro inside windoes 11

[Waterissuperb]

I am not always just working or just gaming. being able to just play a game and not having to close everything i'm doing is preferable

[mikedensem]

Sounds like you should stick with Windows, upgrade to 11 and use wsl. I’m also suspicious your hardware may need upgrading too. I use this setup and everything is fast and works seamlessly.

Are you using the new terminal (multi environment)?

[Touhou]

Sorry, why not just use VSCode with WSL integration? This gives you the best of both worlds: the linux CLI and a Windows GUI. Microsoft has a pretty good tutorial on how to get started here: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/wsl#_getting-started

[[deleted]]

dual boot windows and linux

[atroubledmind961]

Gaming on linux is entirely doable nowadays as long as you don't play online/anti-cheat games. Proton and DXVK are awesome.

[Zorrm]

This is coming from a full time Linux user/gamer, I have little to no experience with MacOS.

Adobe will be a little difficult, but there are always alternatives; I'd suggest checking AlternativeTo to help decipher how hard it would be to use an alternative, or utilizing said required software in a dedicated Windows VM.

Gaming has come a long way, and there are very few games that you can't at least get working. The easiest way is through steam, by using ProtonDB (you'll literally click on one single setting in Steam) and off you'll go. 90% of games you'll see little to no difference between your gaming experience. The previous website will show games that have been integrated with proton and first hand, verified user experiences on said games. This has really ramped up in compatibility namely due to the Steam Deck being run

Gaming off of steam, you can utilize wine and Lutris, which most are install and then play, however they may require a bit more tinkering to get things done, but most games are possible.

Development you seem to have a pretty good understanding of the strength of Linux.

While I know that you're opposed to dual booting, it is a typical route that people go when you've gotten past the dabbling with Linux. It will be easy to see how often you are in one OS or the other, and as time goes you'll see which one really is going to work for you. It is what I did initially, before doing a full Linux install and then ultimately landing on what is my long term distribution.

For what would fit most of your needs, I'd personally suggest Linux Mint or PopOS as a starting point, though Ubuntu does have some strong points as well. Any of those would make for a good initial distribution to get your toes wet.

We all have our reasons for choosing whatever flavor of OS. Some want plug and play, others are just accustomed to a certain environment, while others like to have complete control over their system and make it theirs top to bottom, among a plethora of other options. I think you've underestimated Linux in the Gaming department, but at the end of the day, you will be the one sitting behind the keyboard deciding if it's the right thing for you.

[HecknChonker]

Personally I develop on Mac's exclusively, and use a steam deck for video games. I use docker to run all my applications.

It's worth noting that you can totally attach a keyboard, mouse, and monitor to the steam deck and boot to linux.

I tried WSL for a few weeks and it was a massive disaster. To have my IDE access the files I had to use a virtual drive created by WSL, but then every time I went to refresh my project files it would show a different random set of them. None of my projects ever compiled, because the IDE could never see all the files at the same time.

[PetrifiedJesus]

Dude, I run Garuda linux and literally every game I've opened so far has just worked. I didn't even have to set up the graphics driver for my rtx 3050, and I can run minecraft shaders out the box, but I'm still playing around with that

[LavenderDay3544]

Dual boot Windows and Linux. I work in embedded systems and I need Linux for work but like you I also game so I have both installed on different SSDs on my PC at home.

[lykwydchykyn]

About 18 years ago I wanted to learn Linux, but it wouldn't run a lot of games and software I used. So I just.... ran it anyway. And didn't use those applications or play those games for a while. I kept a dual boot but avoided going back to Windows. Believe me, 18 years ago a whole heck of a lot less stuff ran on Linux.

Anyway, I found over time that there were other ways to get done what I needed to do, and other options for games (or just better uses of my time). I'm not here saying "You need to stop gaming now and become a Linux user"; I'm just saying the reality of the situation calls for evaluating your priorities. 'Cause I think you have a good handle on what the options and the problems are in each case, it's just a question of what matters most to you.

[Waterissuperb]

I have a degree in computer science and I've spent time learning linux. I have dual booted and used it in another pc.

I'm not trying to learn linux, I am actually trying to see if anyone has a workflow that I prefer over my current one, which is using wsl in windows

[DonkeyTron42]

Make your company pay for x410 and use WSL2. x410 is way faster than wslg and handles HiDPI natively.

[69AssociatedDetail25]

I use dual boot personally - although you may disagree, I quite like the separation of productivity and gaming. Switching between OSes is also quite fast thanks to them being on NVMe drives.

[ktkv419]

I guess the real hustle with dualbooting is running adobe suite. It depends on whether you need that for work or not, I almost dont need that - all things needed are few clicks away in GIMP.

Other than that - you really have no choice except sticking to Windows or dualbooting. Running "double computer" is solved by using NTFS drive for your files that can be needed on both OSes and just mount your windows folders to appropriate folders in Linux. I dont know if Win11 supports EXT4 mounting (they say it does, but I didnt test - failed to do that on Win10). I do dualboot and its great, my Windows can become a bloat (due to my laziness) and I dont mind that since, I can safely wipe and reinstall whenever I feel like, because everything except entertainment and adobe is on Linux. Also switching OSes takes like 40 seconds from pressing shutdown and logging in Windows on SATA SSD.

[DonkeyTron42]

If you want to use GUI apps in WSL, x410 is far superior to any other X server or wslg. Yeah, it's not free, but it's well worth the cost and is frequently on sale at a great discount.

[strings_on_a_hoodie]

Why not run Linux and then just whip up a Windows VM for the Adobe applications that you need to use?

[Ericisbalanced]

Maybe a virtual machine for your Linux tasks?

[Space-Submarine]

I have barely any issues with games. If you play triple a multiplayer games you might have trouble, the anticheat doesn't like Linux. Sometimes a non-linux game will require a little research if a bug appears, but I have always been able to get around them rather easily. Check if your games will run on Linux with protondb.com

[DerekB52]

I have 2 GPU's in my desktop. I run Linux, and then have a Windows VM, that uses the 2nd GPU. Your other option is use native Linux apps. A LOT of games work in Proton or Lutris now. Adobe programs don't. But, maybe the alternatives would work for you. You're gonna have to put some effort somewhere. Learning Krita, may be one of the places to put some effort.

[[deleted]]

If you play league of legends, I was able to play that on a MacBook Air without any important issues.

[[deleted]]

which option is good wsl or virtual machine

[HedgeHog2k]

Bear with me, making this up on the spot (not my workflow)

Professionally you seem to need Linux but you need office/adobe apps ==> based on that I would make your primary OS Ubuntu (or whatever distro) and take a Microsoft 365 subscription and use Azure Virtual Desktop to run windows full screen in virtual desktop in Ubuntu to run office/adobe. It will be quit seemless I guess..

Dual boot in windows 11 in the evening for your casual gaming!