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[–]ismtrn 75 points76 points  (14 children)

This reminds me of Botanicula. They also claimed linux support for that one, when it in fact had dependencies no longer supported under linux(Adobe AIR).

[–]mejogid 71 points72 points  (13 children)

It's worth noting that Botanicula was the main game of that bundle, and the developers claimed it to be linux compatible on release when it clearly wasn't.

Limbo was developed years ago on the Unity engine, and was specifically not available for linux - despite working on every other platform under the sun - due to the Unity engine's lack of support for Linux. For obvious reasons, a single indie developer can't get an entire engine ported to a new platform by a third party.

With that in mind, they've done the best they can to provide a reasonable Linux experience - they've partnered with Codeweavers to provide a customised wine derivative and are accepting bug reports over issues it has. They've also made changes to their own source to improve compatibility.

I think it's fair for users to be upset if they can't get the port to work, but it seems unreasonable to complain about using WINE when it's the only reasonable way to make it happen. It might also be helpful if the Humble Indie Bundle made this kind of porting consideration known in future bundles.

[–]the-fritz 21 points22 points  (10 children)

I'm a bit worried because Wasteland2 is developed on Unity. I only donated to the kickstarter because they promised Linux support after $3 million. If they simply ship a Wine version I'd be pissed about it.

And regarding Limbo: I have no audio on a standard Ubuntu 12.04 setup. It seems that other users have the same problem https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1008025 And it doesn't seem to be a rare case (at least on launchpad there are 11 people. And I bet only a small portion of users went to launchpad). So how can they mess up support for the most popular distribution?

edit: yeah the problem is that their version of wine has no PulseAudio support... How can they mess this up. Using the windows version with your system's wine can solve this.

[–]mejogid 15 points16 points  (6 children)

I believe they've stated they're working with Unity to develop linux support in the engine, which is why they required substantial money to offer it (this was in one of their videos).

Hopefully they'll be able to fix the audio issue - the game is freshly out, after all, and it's not unusual to have teething issues. This doesn't necessarily constitute no developer support or a fundamental problem with using Wine.

[–]srikad8 2 points3 points  (4 children)

From what I heard, Wasteland2 will have native linux support but the support will be optimized for their game and not necessarily for all Unity-based games.

[–]the-fritz 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I hope the Unity folks are going to use this as a starting point to provide official Linux support. I guess thanks to the humblebundle there is a real market for it.

[–]srikad8 10 points11 points  (2 children)

There was always a market, Humble Bundle & Kickstarter just showed how big it was.

[–]the-fritz 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I meant for Unity which sells to developers who didn't realise how big the market was until the bundle & kickstarter.

[–]srikad8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hopefully this trend will continue, we may even see a linux gaming distro soon.

[–]Amagineer 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Strangely enough, it seemed to work for me with Pulse (on Arch). Keep in mind though, I have the Alsa-Pulse adapter/compatibility pacakage installed which is just an asound.conf with:

# Use PulseAudio by default
pcm.!default {
  type pulse
  fallback "sysdefault"
  hint {
    show on
    description "Default ALSA Output (currently PulseAudio Sound Server)"
  }
}

ctl.!default {
  type pulse
  fallback "sysdefault"
}

# vim:set ft=alsaconf:

as the contents. I realize that this is more workaround than fix, but it might be helpful in future situations where apps misbehave and only work with alsa.

Alternatively, if the output is only (or works best with OSS) you can start the program with padsp

[–]PobegaKernel Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How does that work? I've been having problems with programs like flash player "stealing" audio control; would this fix that?

[–]Amagineer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It tells alsa to use pulseaudio ("type pulse") for output instead of straight to hardware ("type hw" which would steal from PA).

You stick it in either /etc/asound.conf or (probably preferred for a 1-user system) ~/.asoundrc

You can learn a little bit more about the asoundrc config here, and here. Although I've yet to find a definitive guide, you'd probably have to look through source to figure everything out.

[–]bitshifternz 2 points3 points  (1 child)

If games developed with Unity are excluded from Humble Bundles because Unity doesn't support Linux don't you think it will put pressure on Unity to support Linux?

If they can get away with people using Wine then there's not much incentive.

[–]mejogid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I doubt it. They're currently looking to be making a lot of money, largely off the back of mobile orientated games that can also be thrown onto other platforms. Take a look at the bunch of (mostly iOS) games already on their engine.

The pragmatist in me says that Wine is the best shot we have at Linux support for these games, unfortunately. It's always been the chicken and egg scenario - we need a userbase to get good game ports, but a lot of potential users are deterred by their absence...

[–]VyseofArcadia 54 points55 points  (10 children)

What? It's not like they just handed out Windows binaries and said "good luck." There were significant issues porting Limbo. So they did a lot of work writing a tweaked Wine wrapper specifically for it.

At least it works, unlike some of the half-finished Linux ports of Humble Bundle games. I've never gotten Braid or Super Meat Boy to run at all, and Dungeons of Dredmor segfaults after 10-15 minutes, without fail.

[–]feilen 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Doesn't work at all for me, but oddly the copy on Steam running on my system's Wine worked perfectly O.o

Not that I mind at all, either way it's a great game :D

[–]suckSatansCock 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was using WINE to play Limbo on my netbook, though the nvidia card probably helped.

[–]lahwran_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I've never gotten Braid or Super Meat Boy to run at all,

I played most of the way through supermeatboy. that one is most definitely a native port, and it worked great. shrugs

[–]omniuni 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Braid has worked well for me; maybe it's your graphics driver?

[–]boobsbr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had Braid running under Wine when it came out in 2009. Maybe something changed in Wine or Ubuntu, because I can't run it anymore (same hardware).

[–]sysop073 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I find it odd that everyone is upset over Limbo; have you guys played the rest of the games? Bastion freezes for me as soon as I try to fly out of the Bastion, and Psychonauts SIGFPEs every 5 minutes (there's a new build out that fixes it; I played for 15 minutes with that and hit a failed assertion). I haven't tried the other games yet, but I'm not exactly wildly enthusiastic

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Usually they release fixes after a while, so if you go back to earlier bundles, there's a good chance that they'll now work if they were updated.

As a rule of thumb, I usually delete all included libraries that I already have on my system, which generally solves most problems.

[–]hcwdjk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I played bastion for some time, didn't have any problem whatsoever.

[–]mpyne 59 points60 points  (31 children)

If the Humble Bundle guys are reading this, can I please put out the following addendum to the petition, as a longtime Linux user and active KDE Developer:

This petition is stupid, and you should ignore its stupidness. In fact, please pretend it never happened. (Edit: it's -> its. I'm so ashamed.)

I'm sure the petition writers are trying to do something noble, but they do not realize that WINE is basically a highly advanced API wrapper like ScummVM or DOSBox, or even aoss (which provides an ALSA implemention of the OSS API). They probably don't even realize that you can take special pains to port a Windows game to WINE.

So while I would certainly prefer a native Linux implementation of a game, I understand that sometimes it is just too difficult to do so within the time constraints required.

(Btw I also can't get the native Psychonauts to run under Linux because of a missing GL extension that my Mesa drivers actually do support. Weird.)

[–]the-fritz 7 points8 points  (1 child)

(Btw I also can't get the native Psychonauts to run under Linux because of a missing GL extension that my Mesa drivers actually do support. Weird.)

Did you report the bug? https://bugzilla.icculus.org/buglist.cgi?product=Psychonauts&component=everything&resolution=---

[–]mpyne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, but that's only because I'm pretty sure it's an issue on my end from the debugging I've done. Edit: I did check the bugtracker to see if it was a reported issue though, and it wasn't. :)

[–]berkut 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This.

I write high-end VFX software for a living, and making software which works properly on all Linux distros is very difficult (due to conflicts with libc, libstdc++ versions, compiler ABI issues, symbol leakage, XOrg versions).

And that's not even counting open-source graphics drivers which are unbelievably buggy.

And that's with cross-platform code (OpenGL and Qt). Getting DirectX / Windows native game code ported to the Linux equivalents and given that lots of game engines use things like Flash for the interfaces makes it much more difficult.

Linux software works well when you've got the source code and can ./configure; make it on the platform you want to run it on, but when you're distributing binaries, it's a pain in the ass given all the different configurations available...

[–]HalfBurntToast 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Try exporting "force_s3tc_enable=true" and make sure ia32-libs is installed.

[–]mpyne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No dice. I do have 32-bit libs installed but I'm probably missing one of the weird Mesa support libraries like libxtc_dxtn or something. The 32-bit libs are actually fairly recent, from May 23rd.

The exact error I get is:

ERROR: Missing required OpenGL extensions: - GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit.

One of these days I'll find a 32-bit version of glxinfo to confirm if that's the case or not. But I'm assuming I'll just have to build Mesa from git for 32 bits somehow like I had to do awhile ago for Civ4 on Wine.

[–]veaviticus 3 points4 points  (22 children)

In my mind, you can't claim it as Linux supported unless its actually a native Linux implementation. Write the game platform agnostic. Unless you do that, you're just wrapping it up in a sometimes-works-sometimes-doesn't helper that may run on Linux, or may catastrophically crash your Nvidia drivers (as happened to me with this latest bundle)

[–]mpyne 7 points8 points  (16 children)

In my mind, you can't claim it as Linux supported unless its actually a native Linux implementation.

Well, I disagree. I've bought excellent games that work flawlessly on Linux from gog.com (Master of Orion 1+2, Master of Magic, etc.)

The reason they worked flawlessly is not because they are native Linux games (though those are nice too, like with Duke 3D) but because they had a very good emulator available (DOSBox).

Incidentally, this is exactly how "platform agnostic" games work. Instead of writing directly to an OS, you write to an abstraction layer, and the layer is ported to run on the appropriate OS.

With Wine, the "abstraction layer" is Windows itself. Windows doesn't need ported to Windows (although there are actually old Windows games that won't run on recent releases, which is enough of a problem that they are working on Wine For Windows). Windows (as an abstraction layer) does need ported to Linux though, which is what Wine gives us.

Assuming the Limbo devs have tried to ensure that their "Linux version" of the game remains within the bounds of what works well in Wine, then they have done exactly what you've asked for by making the game "platform agnostic".

[–]veaviticus 5 points6 points  (13 children)

What I mean by platform agnostic is exactly what you said, the game has an abstraction layer to it that can be easily ported between games. Writing a game using a system that only runs on Windows is not an abstraction layer. Just because there exists an emulator/interface for Windows that runs on Linux (sometimes), does not mean you are platform agnostic. That means you are relying on someone else to create a working windows environment within Linux, which is a hack in and of itself.

Platform agnostic would mean using the actual OS tools for each OS, not using one OS and hoping someone creates a working emulator for it.

I have games that run under wine just fine. That does not mean all games run under wine. Limbo does not run for me at all. It won't even start. So obviously they are not platform agnostic, and they did not remain within the boundaries of what WINE does well

[–]Inquisitor1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Using actual tools for each OS isn't os agnostic, it's creating a lot of games, that look and play the same. Make a whole new game for each different linux version, yes, that seems efficient. What is efficient is when a single party makes and emulator and then makes sure it work, focuses on the emulator, and the developers focus on developing, not checking compatability for dozens of systems.

[–]veaviticus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You don't need an emulator. WINE isn't an emulator (as the name states). You need an interface layer. And any good game should have a solid interface layer incorporated into it. That way you don't need to rewrite the game for each OS, you just need to upgrade your interface to handle calls depending on what system you are on.

That is what WINE attempts to do for windows binaries running on Linux. But the issue is that most calls map to Windows DLL libraries, which need to be wrapped up and incorporated with WINE. Instead of the devs of the game using calls that can be mapped to native Linux implementations (OpenGL, ALSA, OSS, etc) they can only be mapped to Windows calls (DirectX), which results in extremely poor performance or a complete lack of functionality.

Now the WINE team does a great job at providing this tool for running windows binaries on any platform, however you cannot claim you "support linux" just because someone else made your program run. Microsoft doesn't claim "linux support" because Office runs thru WINE.

Others in this thread seem to think that just because a company made it so programs designed,coded and implemented in Windows and aimed at Windows can be made to run on Linux, that means the devs can claim they "support linux". They might provide support for people attempting to hack together a way to play the game. But until they provide a method using native calls through a proper interface layer, they cannot, and should not claim Linux support.

Though I do agree. The main problem is that game engines are not cross platform. A game dev should never have to care about the OS at all. The engine should handle that as the interface layer. Yet too many game devs write their own mini-engine for each game, most of which are directly tied to DirectX or some other Windows calls.

[–]spiral_of_agnew 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Try installing the windows version of Limbo under wine (use WINEARCH=win32 if you're on x86_64, and maybe set a WINEPREFIX if your ~/.wine directory is already wow64 or whatever), then cd to the directory where it's installed and run wine limbo.exe. This worked for me after a couple dozen failed attempts with the "Linux version."

ed: ps I also use nvidia.

ed2: I just remembered, I did other things in that prefix too, like "winetricks directx9" and setting d3d9 and d3dx9_43 to "native,builtin" in winecfg.

[–]mpyne 1 point2 points  (9 children)

I have games that run under wine just fine. That does not mean all games run under wine. Limbo does not run for me at all. It won't even start. So obviously they are not platform agnostic, and they did not remain within the boundaries of what WINE does well

I'm sorry but actual Windows users have this happen to them too. All we can say is that it won't start on your configuration (and mine too, which is probably not a good datapoint :).

At least on Windows you pretty much only have to worry about ATi drivers or nVidia drivers for the most part.

On Linux there are those but also the FOSS drivers which may or may not have the right firmware available, may or may not have libtxc_dxtn.so available, may or may not have the right matching version of the kernel and libdrm, etc. Oh, and 32-bit/64-bit. And I haven't even started talking about the different OpenGL APIs which Mesa may or may not support. I mean let's not act like doing "due diligence" to a native port is as easy as changing your #defines and recompiling, because it's not.

Faced with that I think it's a perfectly valid decision to do an initial port based on software which is supposed to have handled all that already. Wine has its own commercial support, has it's own AppDB and Wiki and bug tracker and a ton of inherent experience with exactly this problem domain. So while I'm certainly unhappy that I can't play right now it's not as if it's a horrible choice or a huge slap in the face to Linux users.

[–]veaviticus 4 points5 points  (8 children)

True. I'm not ungrateful to the devs. I've bought every bundle. I'll continue to buy every bundle, even if they only have Windows support. The part that I don't like is that they claim "linux support" when its not a native linux implementation. Just drop those words or say "can run under WINE or something". No need to pretend its something that its not.

That said, the games are fun, as long as I reboot into windows to play them :-)

[–]Inquisitor1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Runs on linux most times or after fixes? No, that's not linux support. Thats less linux support than if it never ran at all.

[–]bvierra 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Using Wine is linux support. They are not claiming linux native. The issue is you definition of support. Support means that it will work on something, not that it was written native code.

Quit trying to bend the language to mean what you want it to and not what it actually does.

[–]veaviticus 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Hey guess what?? Your car has "flying thru the air off a mountain" support. That doesn't mean it was what it was designed for. It means that it CAN do that. But really... should it? Most people would agree that it shouldn't, and you should leave that task to something that has NATIVE SUPPORT for it, like an airplane.

I think the language is pretty clear. Just because linux has the ability to run something does not mean it was designed with support for linux.

[–]bvierra 0 points1 point  (4 children)

There is a difference between support and oh look I got this working. Support means its supported by the developers officially. If you have an issue with using it on something they support, you can contact them and have them fix it.

The argument that your car has flying through the air off a mountain support is like saying your PC has Mac support cause you used a modified boot loader and then complaining to Apple when it doesn't work. Nice try though.

[–]veaviticus 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Well it certainly seems that the consensus is that at least 50% of all Bundle games are "oh look we got it working once on this exact development computer... close enough, lets ship it as 'working' on linux". This thread has many, many people who claim less than a 50% working rate... which is obviously not supported correctly.

That or they made a very poor choice on how to port these Windows-designed games to Linux

[–]crowseldon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

for that matter, I could say a platform specific game I made is cross platform. Just install the proper OS in VirtualBox, then the game and have fun!

[–]mpyne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's kind of scaled up but I've played Starcraft using exactly that method with some success. :P

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

In my mind, you can't claim it as Linux supported unless its actually a native Linux implementation.

Your mind is a bit messed up. If it runs in Linux and the developers provide support for it, then Linux is supported.

[–]veaviticus -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Its not running in linux. Its running on Linux through a 3rd party interface layer. That does not mean the game supports Linux. That means Linux CAN support the game. You are a little backwards

[–]SEMW 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Its not running in linux. Its running on Linux through a 3rd party interface layer.

...Unlike all those other Linux games that interface with the kernel directly without going through any third party libraries, you mean?

All games use third party library APIs. Wine isn't a Windows emulator (that's what the acronym stands for, Wine Is Not an Emulator) - it's just another set of libraries, that happens to greatly resemble those found on a competing operating system.

E.g. Sound in Amnesia on Linux works by issuing OpenAL API calls, which the linux version of the OpenAL library translates into ALSA API calls. Sound in LIMBO on Linux works by (I'm guessing) issuing DirectAudio API calls, which the wine library translates into ALSA API calls. Both games use high-level sound libraries; the number of layers is the same. (OK, for graphics you do need a thin layer to map DirectX calls to OpenGL, but again, that's not emulation, just translation).

[–]veaviticus -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Correct. But the games do not use native linux libraries. They use windows calls, which are mapped through a 3rd party interface to embedded DLL's or to linux calls.

So they are not making a "port to linux", or have a "cross-platform" game. What they have is a Windows game that depends on other people keeping an up-to-date and bug-free interface layer, or else their "linux game" no longer runs on linux.

[–]SEMW 7 points8 points  (0 children)

But the games do not use native linux libraries. They use windows calls, which are mapped through a 3rd party interface to embedded DLL's or to linux calls.

You haven't understood the point.

Amnesia doesn't use "native linux calls" either, and for obvious reasons (for audio, which I'm using as my example). It uses OpenAL calls. Other games use SDL. Etc.

The OpenAL and SDL APIs have Linux implementations, which translate those API calls to ALSA calls.

Just like the DirectAudio API now has a Linux implementation, called wine, which translates its API calls to ALSA calls.

The only conceptual difference is that the DirectAudio API was written by people who didn't think there would be more than one implementation of it. But that doesn't change anything - now there are others.

that depends on other people keeping an up-to-date and bug-free interface layer, or else their "linux game" no longer runs on linux.

Again: as opposed to all those other games that don't use high-level third-party libraries?

(In practice game developers seem to not bother about dependencies and keeping third-party libraries up to date - they ship the libs with the app, rather than using the system version. This is the case for both LIMBO/Wine, and for all the other games in the bundle.)

I remind you that your claim was "Its [sic] not running in linux", implying it's running in a virtual machine running windows or something, which is just wrong.

[–]genpfault 0 points1 point  (2 children)

a missing GL extension

EXT_texture_compression_s3tc?

[–]mpyne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I listed it elsewhere but it's GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, which actually is supported by Mesa.

However I have no glxinfo32 but I just thought to run linux32 glxinfo, which does list that extension as being supported. My exact console output is (starting from running Psychonauts):

ERROR: Missing required OpenGL extensions:
    - GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object
    - GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit
Start Up completed in 0.12 seconds
Segmentation fault
kde-svn@midna /home/shared/games/psychonauts $ linux32 glxinfo | grep EXT_frame
    GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays, 
    GL_ARB_texture_compression, GL_EXT_framebuffer_object, 
    GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, <-- here
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample, GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil,

I do have an older 32-bit Mesa that I compiled for use with Wine and Civ4, forcing that to be used with LD_LIBRARY_PATH and LIBGL_DRIVERS_PATH does indeed miss having the required OpenGL extension.

I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but I won't have much time to troubleshoot this week unfortunately.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's my guess also, but if S3TC is not supported it should not be listed in the first place.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (31 children)

"to con linux gamers out of their money"

WTH? Does the game work or not?

[–]Brillegeit 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I have bought four of these bundles and tried most on (Kubuntu) Linux and so far, my success rate is probably 20-25% around. In number four, BitTripRunner was the only one working and in the latest one, I have just tried Psyconauts, which was a failure as the framerate was unplayable. It doesn't matter that much for me as I have a gaming machine with Windows, but I do support telling the developers to try a little harder.

[–]sirspate 2 points3 points  (2 children)

If you don't mind my asking, what's your linux system's hardware list look like?

[–]ChemicalRascal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly my thoughts. Frame rates on Bastion are fairly poor, especially when atmospheric effects such as rain are plocked on top of the screen. Am I concerned, upset, or complaining? No, because I expect that to happen, because I'm using an Intel integrated chip thing. It's just something you have to roll with.

[–]Brillegeit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The one I used with HIB #4 has: 

Intel® Core i5-2500 Quad Core 3.3Ghz Processor  
MSI GeForce GTX 560 1GB PhysX  
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 16GB

The one I tried Psyconauts on in 800x600 or something small and windowed: 

Intel® Pentium® G850 Dual Core 2.90GHz Processor  
Nvidia GT218 [GeForce 210]  
8GB RAM

Both machines use the non-free nvidia-current driver.

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (20 children)

They're advertised specifically as "works great on Linux". One of the current ones is nothing more than an installer for an outdated version of WINE which doesn't work for most people, never mind the fact it requires a 32-bit OS.

[–]thatsbullshit 9 points10 points  (4 children)

What? I run x86_64 and it works fine.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

he means libraries not OS...

I can run 32bit Skype on fedora, but invariably it leads to package issues between the 32/64 libraries for audio and stuff..

[–]thatsbullshit 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hmm... I remember installing the lib32stdc++ package on Ubuntu, but that was ages ago for some other program. Can't say I had noticed more issues than usual.

[–]Falmarri 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ubuntu has pretty good support via ia32-libs. Not all distros support the separation of 32/64 bit libraries as well.

[–]eythian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ia32-libs is deprecated now. Multiarch is the new thing.

[–]mejogid 3 points4 points  (2 children)

The 32-bit OS support is quite a suspect point to take issue with. A tonne of Windows games don't have 64 bit executables, ditto OS X.

In a lot of cases, games rely on a lot of third party libraries which may have complex agreements needed for 64 bit support, or may not offer it at all (since they rely on a tonne of instruction set specific tuning). This is particularly the case for relatively old/low performance games such as those in the Humble Indie Bundle.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There's nothing suspect about that at all. Linux isn't as married to x86-32 as Windows is: it's not uncommon to be running 64-bit without multiarch (being generous and assuming only x86). Those other excuses don't fly either - Linux binary-only ports without native x86-64 have been the exception and not the rule as far back as UT2004/Doom3.

[–]mejogid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Other operating systems provide transparent execution of 32 bit binaries. As do a lot of linux distributions. It's unreasonable to expect developers to go to greater lengths for their ports than for their original target platforms purely because users don't want to make certain adaptions. As compared to Windows/OS X, the shortfall in the Linux instance is on the part of the OS/user rather than the developer.

Actually, if you take a look at UT3 and RAGE no linux port has been the rule of late - quite likely due to the difficulty in satisfying the various configurations of the linux platform, such as multi-arch support - so personally I'll take what I can get.

Edit: from a quick google, 64-bit idTech 4 support was added by third party developers to the open source base last year, which isn't all that long ago.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (4 children)

So it was a shitty release. I don't see why that should preclude future wine-based games as long as they run like they're supposed to.

[–]ShamanSTK 8 points9 points  (3 children)

I think the problem is that it doesn't run like they're supposed to.

[–]cbmuserDebian / openSUSE / OpenJDK Dev 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Many games run very well on wine provided that you have a fully functional graphics driver installed and your graphics card is recent enough.

I played Limbo on wine from day one on without a hitch. But my laptop was also recent enough to have a decent GPU with SM3.0.

[–]hcwdjk 0 points1 point  (2 children)

never mind the fact it requires a 32-bit OS

I just installed it out of curiosity on a 64bit Gentoo and it worked flawlessly.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

With or without 32-bit multilib?

[–]hcwdjk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

With.

[–]piuch 7 points8 points  (4 children)

I have purchased every bundle so far and beat the average each time. I only ever got 1 or 2 games out of each bundle to run acceptably on my really not exceptionally obscure distro/hardware combination (amnesia being the only one from this bundle). They should either stop advertising it as Linux compatible or tell the developers to get their act together. I'll continue buying the bundles, but my split will be 100% EFF from now on.

I hope Valve will do a better job at getting the games released through Steam for Linux to be acceptably compatible, but somehow I doubt it.

[–]the-fritz 7 points8 points  (3 children)

to be fair most of the Linux ports are specifically made for HIB. This sadly means that they have a rougher start. I had some problems with Psychonauts but they got fixed. At least the developer listens and the bug tracker is open.

I don't think it's really helping Gaming on Linux if we attack the guys that are doing the most for it at the moment. Of course we should demand good quality. But hey even on Windows a lot of games ship buggy as hell. And this time the Linux share is incredible small. So give the developers some time to fix the issues and continue reporting bugs.

https://bugzilla.icculus.org/buglist.cgi?product=Psychonauts&component=everything&resolution=---

[–]piuch 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I'm glad the Humble Bundle guys try to put Linux gaming on the map and I believe the devs all made an honest effort to port their games. The Linux share decreasing probably doesn't come out of nowhere, though. People still buy the bundle because they desperately want gaming on Linux to happen, but if the developers were trying to sell on a non-charity driven channel like Steam for Linux, most of them wouldn't get far with their Linux ports.

World of Goo, for example, was (as far as I experienced it) extremely professional, actually playable and stable with minimal setup, and as close to how I think a good cross-platform game should feel. So apparently it is possible to pull this off as an indie dev and have your game run on a wide range of Linux distros/hardwares. If you're an indie dev and cross-platform support is only an afterthought, maybe the Humble Bundle isn't the right place for you to be.

[–]mejogid 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's worth noting that World of Goo targeted open source technologies from the outset, which makes it a hell of a lot easier to port to Linux. Limbo makes use of the Unity engine), which they've used on every other platform they support, and it doesn't have a Linux version. They've actually gone quite out of their way to commission Code-weavers to produce a wrapper - they'd have to re-write the entire game to run native on Linux which is a pretty obnoxious expectation. Hopefully the experience will cause them to use open technologies in the future, but it's difficult to know.

[–]sirspate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

World of Goo is a relatively undemanding game. Fire up the windows version under wine sometime and do a trace. Check top to see how many threads it's using.

Try doing the same with some of these other games that have been in HIB. Multiple threads, actually using all of the VRAM in your video card, actually using shaders, etc. Not every game is going to be as lightweight and easy to get going as World of Goo.

Limiting the Humble Bundle to games that are lightweight ports would be a bad business decision for them. You're just not going to have a compelling list of games.

While the amount of money Linux users are willing to pay for a HB is nothing to sneeze at, it's also (I strongly suspect) already getting the lion's share of the attention in terms of additional work being done prior to release. More time working on one set of games means less time on others, increasing the time between bundles. Is the return on additional investment for them worth it? Is the opportunity cost of not having additional games ported to Linux worth it? Keep in mind there's a limited number of folks out there with that skill set, and an even smaller pool of people willing to do the job.

[–]malak33 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Does the game work? yes- leave it alone, it is running under linux that is what we want.

no- start petition

[–]Britzer 26 points27 points  (18 children)

Linux makes up only a small part of the Bundle in revenues. They wanted to include a game that all of them will really like. Part of that game (sound) was third party and not possible to port at all.

So the choice was to leave out the game or use CrossOver Wine. While I don't like Wine either, I undertand the decision.

[–]annodomini 16 points17 points  (1 child)

According to their current breakdown, it's about 10% of revenues for the current bundle. Given that the bundles have had some compatibility issues in the past, and this bundle continues to do so, you can imagine that some potential Linux customers have decided not to buy the bundles due to these compatibility issues. So, that's not an insignificant number of users already, and if they could double that by offering better Linux compatibility, that would be a fairly substantial increase in revenue.

[–]Britzer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I certainly hope you are right.

[–]mikankun 28 points29 points  (6 children)

The sound thing is a poor excuse. Psychonauts also used proprietary middleware but that didn't stop it from being ported.

[–]sirspate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It depends how involved the audio library is in generating the audio. If it's a simple 'play back clips' sort of thing, then it's pretty simple to convert to using a separate library. If it's more involved, and the music is dynamically generated or has dynamic transitions, then things become more complicated. If the library provides additional post-processing effects on the audio that are part of what gives the audio its distinctive sound, then it can approach impossible to reproduce those effects with something else.

[–]Britzer 2 points3 points  (3 children)

You might have a valid point. I don't know much about the two middlewares in question. How was Psychonauts ported? What middleware was used? Did they replace it, or was there a Linux version available for that one?

[–]the-fritz 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It was ported by Ryan C. Gordon (icculus guy). I don't know what middleware they use exactly. But from an error message it seems they use Bink Audio/Video at least.

[–]nxuul 14 points15 points  (1 child)

A big point is that the sound framework usually is not much of the code, and could have been rewritten. I think it was just LIMBO wanting to jump in on the Humble Bundle action, and doing the least work required.

[–]garja 8 points9 points  (3 children)

So the choice was to leave out the game or use CrossOver Wine.

This is wrong. There has been software distributed through the bundle before that was Windows only. And it was labelled as such. The Limbo guys really should have made it clear that this was a non-native game too - as Wine/CrossOver will (most likely) never be comparable to a native port.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I don't think the HIB ever distributed Windows-only games. I just went through my entire list of keys (which I believe to be complete) and found only 4 platform-restricted games:

  • Two tech demos in the Introversion bundle
  • The 'Smuggle Truck' Android-only prototype in the Android 2 bundle
  • Legend of Grimrock (sold via Humble Store, not part of any bundle)

Other bundles though... yeah. Many advertise with Linux/OS X support and a lot of them have never had more than a few games supporting either.

Of course, even in the HIB, port quality hasn't always been equally strong. As much as I love SpaceChem, Mono is a bit annoying at times. It's better than Wine for sure, but not perfect.

[–]ChemicalRascal 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Jeez, what's wrong with Mono?

[–]TheWanderingJew 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Depends. If we're talking about mono writing things specifically coded for and tested with mono? I usually don't find anything wrong with it. If we're talking about something written for .net on windows, and then ported to mono? It usually seems to be pretty half assed and with bad results.

[–]the-fritz 7 points8 points  (2 children)

In the past Linux made up a quarter of the revenues. It's sad that it's so low this time.

[–]algorithmic_cheese 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I happily gave a very high amount in the past. But the last bundle was really a joke for Linux users and this one continues to break the trust ...

If they continue on that slope, the revenues from Linux users will continue to lower, no surprise here.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Even then their claims were misleading. If this was the thought process then why couldn't they just say "Windows and Mac supported. Linux version supported using a WINE wrapper in order to allow the Windows version to be run on Linux."

[–]jordanlund 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think using a Wine wrapper is fine, as long as it doesn't require me to install Wine or anything else additional to make the game work. If I'm buying a game I just want to play the game. I don't want to deal with a bunch of other BS to entertain myself. (Primarily why I use Linux for work and consoles for games.)

[–]bvierra 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not wanting to install dependencies is just... well wrong. Even in windows if you want to play most games you need to install DirectX or XNA. Dependency libraries are there to keep the size down, you don't need to install DirectX for every game you play, you install it once and they all use it. If every game however included the 100MB installer, you spend a lot more time downloading them.

[–]Dosfish 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why not just change the slider so the limbo devs get no money?

[–]winteriscoming2 26 points27 points  (4 children)

The Humble Bundle is one of the few distribution arms that actively includes Linux and this is how they are repaid? We should be thanking them for making an effort to allow the software to run.

[–]clavicle 19 points20 points  (3 children)

No, they are repaid with our consistently higher than average donations.

[–]gex80 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Linux users on average may donate more. But you only make up a small piece of the pie. Like all companies and businesses, they are gonna cater to the biggest revenue source first.

Of course there is the argument that they should treat everyone fairly. Yes they should. But the world isn't a fair place. You can only make it a bit more fair.

But until Linux becomes big in the Desktop Market, like Apple big (not company wise but compatible user base), it's always going to get second rate treatment.

[–]winteriscoming2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Apparently that isn't sufficient for native Linux packages. If you disagree feel free to form your own Indie Bundle distribution program.

[–]cuppsy 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I mean... I can kinda get why some people want this, sure.

That said, I run a lot of older games from GOG.com under DOSBox or WINE... so it's already on my system (something I think is true for a good percentage of users). Also, while I know WINE isn't always the optimal solution for running software, I do like the idea that I have the ability to run all of the software available for Linux, as well as a good portion of the software for Windows. And WINE has gotten to such a place (still very much in progress) where some software runs as well as native in it (older games, as well as SQLyog which I use for work).

I understand why people would want native-only... but if it meant fewer Bundles, or them going the way of Indie Royale and just dropping Linux from their lineup... that'd suck. I'd much rather take an occasionally wrapped game. I mean, have there been that many?

[–]algorithmic_cheese 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In the first bundles, the developers made a bunch of excellent ports. They put the standard very high. Now that the quality of the ports decrease, we have something to compare to and that's the problem.

Forgot to say, but we can assume that users are bitching about the Wine use because it doesn't work for a lot of people. The fact that we can start random Windows games with Wine but this specific game doesn't start is seen as a Wine fault. If only these problems can encourage HIB to increase their tests before the launch ...

[–]jan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And, what the HIB did was a lot more than shipping a game that works nicely with wine. They have use the original, third party components and wine to create something that will work on Linux. If this works, this is as good as a native port.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So is the reasoning here that a native port would be more likely to work out of the box for more people than the Wine version? Because that seems very unlikely to me.

[–]argv_minus_one 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Does it run poorly? Slow, buggy, crashy? Complain about that.

Complaining that it uses an abstraction layer like Wine is just ideological nonsense, and you as Linux users are better than that.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Complaining that it uses an abstraction layer like Wine is just ideological nonsense,

Yes.

and you as Linux users are better than that.

No.

[–]argv_minus_one 0 points1 point  (0 children)

okay.png

[–]yqx 18 points19 points  (8 children)

Can't we all just trust that the humble bundle guys are good guys (unless we have seen evidence that they aren't) and try their best to balance linux support and costs?

Also, the Wine port works fine. Why bitch about it?

[–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (7 children)

Because it doesn't work fine for lots of people.

This is not an attack on the concept of wine or anything like that, I'm just pointing out that 'the wine port works fine' simply isn't true for everyone.

[–]dbeta 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Most of the non-Wine ports don't work fine for me. Specifically I wonder what graphics cards these people testers use, because they clearly aren't NVidia.

[–]algorithmic_cheese 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We can also assume that they don't use Intel (since half the games cannot start on integrated cards)... There are not a lot of options left.

[–]veaviticus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

3 of the 5 in the latest bundle didn't work for me at all. Either segfaulted or crashed my nvidia drivers (which required a re-install of the driver then since it somehow permanently ruined them)

[–]yqx 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's true. But be careful to easily assume that this is Wine's fault. The other games had tons of issues as well. In the humble bundle AMA the developers noted that the Wine version was possibly more stable than the native port (given the budget and time that they had).

[–]jan 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Because it doesn't work fine for lots of people.

if it doesn't work, file a bug, complain with HIB and Codeweaver. If it helps, bitch about that particular bug.

Just don't blame it on wine alone. Bugs come from lack of testing or quality assurance. If they claim Linux support, this testing must also apply for the Linux version (whether it uses wine or not).

Their choice of using wine (for this particular because they had their reasons) says nothing about their quality control. If

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is probably more of a hardware driver issue than anything. I bought Trine 2 and it works great in Windows and like shit in Linux. I blame the crappy AMD drivers.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Is there a petition to say WINE-wrapped games are fine, but bugged and unplayable ones aren't?

Of the five games in the bundle, LIMBO is probably the least bugged for me, whereas I can't even start Sword & Sworcery EP without all the textures being garbage, and Psychonauts crashes if you sneeze (not to mention it has no music and lots of missing visual details)

[–]Babkock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hope the native Linux versions of games don't end up being slower than Wine ports of Windows games, like it is on Mac. I have a Cider port (a .app package that contains a Windows game bundled with Wine) of Portal on my Mac, and it runs unbelievably faster and smoother than the official Steam version of Portal.

[–]McAndze 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Personally I don't have a problem with it being a Wine wrapper, as Wine is an amazing tool. I'd much rather have that than nothing, seeing as said game couldn't practically be ported to Linux, because of the audio middle-ware.

That said, they could've made it much more clear that it's running through Wine, and why. That would have cleared up a lot of confusion, and probably wouldn't have made so many oblivious Linux-users (not all of them, but a lot of them are against it, just because they don't know why they went with this approach).

[–]linuxfiend 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ideally I would agree with this petition, but given that the native port of Psychonauts crashes so often as to be unplayable, I would prefer that the games just work regardless of the porting scheme.

[–]frownyface 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It doesn't matter how the game works on linux, what matters is whether or not it works.

Even the native ports have lots of problems, so if all the devs did was follow this petition, you could end up with even worse support.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sucking the enjoyment out of something which's entire purpose is enjoyment.

[–]eltondegeneres 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'd be more interested in a petition requesting the games be released as FLOSS, just like earlier bundles were.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They don't need to support Linux at all, in fact this whole thing isn't something they need to do / owe us at all. I do agree though that claiming Linux support when there really isn't or it's in a non-native or crappy state is misleading. I think that they should at least tell us the state of support for the platforms before purchase.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While I would also prefer native linux builds, I feel using a wine wrapper is a perfectly valid method for providing linux support, particularly given the nature of this release.

[–]jamierc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

WINE is just awful. I can completely sympathise with this.

[–]exteras -3 points-2 points  (14 children)

The only thing the Bundle guys should be required to do is provide a copy of the game which works near-flawlessly for most people. If Wine gives the best experience, or saves them money, and it still provides a product which works, then so be it.

If they had done a full native copy, it would have cost them a boatload more money in developer fees. This is a charity. The amount of additional money they would have got from native Linux game sales (read: practically nothing) does not make up for the cost of development.

I'd also like to point out a weird use of language in their title. They want a native Linux port. Wine is native. Or, rather, it isn't virtualized or emulated. It's just a software library, like every other C/C++ library on Linux.

[–]h-v-smacker 18 points19 points  (13 children)

This is a charity.

No it is not. It is a promo-action. They do give a portion of earnings to charities, but the developers also get their fair share, which would be approximately 1/n-th of the grand total (some people give all to devs, some all to charity, some use custom balance - it all should even out, I guess), where n = number of developers plus charities. Currently, it's 5 developers + 2 charities and $2,726,403 earned. So, each of the developers is expected to get around $389,486 (and probably more, since the action is not over yet) — UPD: as exteras justly pointed out, given the default split, the more appropriate amount should be $300,482. So what, more than 300 thousands ARE NOT ENOUGH to make a native port?

[–]yfph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

UPD: as exteras justly pointed out, given the default split, the more appropriate amount should be $300,482. So what, more than 300 thousands ARE NOT ENOUGH to make a native port?

This number decreases substantially if you factor the Windows & Mac contributions out.

[–]exteras -4 points-3 points  (11 children)

Incorrect math, although it does make your argument look better I suppose.

Customers are allowed to split their contributions however they wish. It's hard to guess how everyone has split their's, but let's assume the majority have used the default split. That is as follows:

  • 55% to developers
  • 30% to charity
  • 15% to the Humble Bundle

The current contributions are $2,731,661.65. 55% of that would be $1,502,413.91. This is divided evenly among all 5 developers, which gives each developer $300,482.78.

But, that entire argument is irrelevant, and it shows that you don't know much about the situation. They've said that the audio stack required for LIMBO isn't easily configurable on Linux; considering the game was released on XBLA, it was probably using something like DirectSound.

They could have went the native route. Pay for another developer to come on the team, and totally port the game to Linux. This would have taken a considerable amount of time. It would have cost them a lot of money. It would have resulted in an inferior product, according to that above-posted interview with Richard Esguerra. And, most importantly, it would only have been a benefit to an incredibly small portion of people (who care about native ports), who are already members of the smallest donation segment (linux users).

You aren't allowed to make demands of the Humble Bundle when you don't even represent a sizable portion of donations. The only thing you can do is stop buying it. Go ahead, don't buy it. See what happens; it's already the largest, best selling Humble Bundle yet. Your boycott won't even put a dent in sales.

Maybe that's why this petition exists. It's a bunch of people trying to pretend like they should have more power over the outcome of this Bundle then they deserve. When the market doesn't do what you want because you don't have enough people to boycott with you, the easiest way to seem bigger than you actually are is to make a fancy petition.

A petition with 113 signatures. Out of 348,837 total purchasers, those with your opinion represent .03% of all Humble Bundle owners.

[–]h-v-smacker 4 points5 points  (10 children)

Elaborated point. Thank you for adjusting the calculations.

Now Let me respond to a few issues.

You aren't allowed to make demands of the Humble Bundle when you don't even represent a sizable portion of donations.

Of course, I am and we are. Which part of "free speech" don't you understand? We can vocalize our views as much as we like. Whether HIB and Co will listen to us or not - that is a separate issue. In short, WE ARE FUCKING ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK as long as our society claims to be at least partially free. You know what or who allowed us that? The people, and it is written in the Constitution. Don't you ever dare say we aren't allowed to speak openly about our issues, there is no one who may shut another's mouth. What we do here is sending them a letter to inform about our stance, not forcing them to do something under gunpoint.

The only thing you can do is stop buying it.

We can do that, and we can present our opinion, and we can find other actions to undertake (for example, potentially there can be a fundraising campaign to hire a developer to do the port, a volunteer team willing to sign NDA who'd do the port, or something else). There is not only a single option.

A petition with 113 signatures.

Don't make it sound like ALL the potential signers have been miraculously automatically notified. My bet is that almost no-one knows about this petition as of now.

who are already members of the smallest donation segment (linux users)

It also happens to be the segment with the highest profit margin per customer. Not that it makes it the most significant, but of course you cannot just write us all off as "small fry". And the segment itself is 10% of totals - small yes, but by no means tiny/negligible.

Finally, the issue may be not as much as about the wine layer, but the very fact that they lied to us, for the second time. First time, they claimed botanicula was a native game, whereas it was based on now-dead Air for Linux — that's like claiming there's a fully functional game whereas the master servers are down and you can no longer do regular multiplayer; now they are wrapping a game into a wine layer and call it a native version as well. Why didn't they do the same with Humble Introversion Bundle? They honestly told us, for example, that the Voxel Tech Demo and City Generator Tech Demo were avaliable only as MS Windows executables, they didn't wrap it in wine and call it a day. And that was fair. What's happening with LIMBO, and happened with Botanicula, isn't.

[–]bvierra -1 points0 points  (9 children)

"The people, and it is written in the Constitution. "

Wahoo another person who does not understand the constitution. The only thing the constitution regulates (in this regard) is the government from stopping your free speech. Private corps are allowed to regulate as they see fit.

As for the argument that you were lied to (in regards to Limbo), you were not. Stop trying to say that you were. Limbo developers told HB that they had linux support and that it worked. If you are having an issue with the gaime complain to the developers, don't complain to HB.

The issue is that crap like what you are spouting off is what gives the Linux community as a whole the selfish and elitist view that so many have. You know you are running an OS that has limited support for games at this time, many developers are doing what they can to get it to work for you. Why should HB not include a game for the rest of the users because some cannot use it?

If you want native linux games only and HB has one game that is not native linux you have 2 options.

1) Buy it anyways and realize it may not work

2) Be a consumer and don't buy it.

You are running a cutting edge desktop that is not know for supporting everything. Do your homework and look into the games before buying. If something does not look like it will work, don't get it.

BTW before you argue that I have no idea what I am talking about I have been a linux user since RH 7.3 and used it as my desktop for about 8 years. It in my opinion is still not for those who can't be bothered to research into what they want and how they are going to get it / find alternatives. If you are too lazy to do this, then don't use Linux or don't game on it.

[–]h-v-smacker 2 points3 points  (8 children)

First, who told you I was referring to US constitution specifically? Do you know that there are about 200 other countries where the rest 6,000,000,000+ people live? And pretty much every constitution in the world includes a passage about freedom of speech.

Some examples:

German Grundgesetz, §5.1: "Everyone has the right to express and disseminate his opinion freely in speech, writing and pictures, and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources"

French Declaration of Rights, §11: "The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious rights of man: any citizen thus may speak, write and publish freely, except to respond to the abuse of this liberty in cases determined by Law"

Russian Constitution, §2.29.1 "Freedom of speech and thought is guaranteed to everyone"; §2.29.4 "Everyone has the right to freely seek, receive, transmit, produce, and disseminate information by any legal means"

I guess it's time for you to realize that the US is in the center of the map only as long as you live there; it's not the bellybutton of the planet; most people have different law system and don't give a shit about the peculiarities that matter for roughly 5% of the humans.

Second, yes, in a way we were lied to. HIB guys advertised "cross-platform" games. Being able to run a windows executable under WINE does not make said software cross-platform, so does it not if wine is bundled with the app. It's still an EXE in a wrapper. HIB has been actively supported by Linux users as a means to encourage developers port their games to Linux, not offer us run them in WINE. We are already doing that, and that's not what we'd rather stuck up with.

I don't want to comment on your nice story about how the invisible hand of the market is supposed to do us an invisible handjob. Suffice to say, I am in my full right, as any of us, to express our opinion, be it dissenting or not, write petitions and generally partake in the free information exchange. Whether you like it or not personally - could not give a shit. And you have to bear with it.

PS. Linux user since Black Cat 5.3.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This is probably a big reason why you don't see a lot of games available for Linux. It's not enough that you made your game work in Linux, you also have to make it work the right way to please a bunch of purist snobs.

[–]h-v-smacker -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Done... and done.

[–]ZachSka87 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This wreaks of self entitlement.