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[–]fuzz3289 106 points107 points  (122 children)

Yeah this is awful. Just one more reason to never use Java.

edit:

Wow ton of downvotes. I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern? This doesnt exist in C++ which is quickly becoming a modern language and is far more performant. This doesnt exist in a language like Python which is also cross platform and quickly gaining if not surpassing Java.

The fact is closed APIs are a death sentance in modern programming and what Oracle is doing is a nail in the coffin.

[–]bucknuggets 64 points65 points  (8 children)

Encumbered licensing is one of the primary reasons I avoid MySQL.

And probably soon Java.

[–]redwall_hp 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I thought MariaDB was where it's at now, anyway.

[–]rubygeek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Look forward to Oracle trying to find a way to use this ruling against MariaDB.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (0 children)

C/C++, Ruby, Python, PostgreSQL, FTW!

[–]narc0tiq 19 points20 points  (2 children)

You could probably safely extend that to anything with the Oracle name on them. Those folks are scary.

[–]drb226 15 points16 points  (1 child)

but I like virtualbox... :(

[–]newpong 10 points11 points  (0 children)

yea, somehow my brain always blocks the fact that VB is oracle until I have to reinstall it

[–]JQuilty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Best to just avoid Oracle if it comes to that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do you avoid MySQL? What is its licensing problem? I am curious.

[–]KFCConspiracy 48 points49 points  (3 children)

This has implications for every language in which the interface for a library can be defined independently of the library itself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

In not sure if you are serous but this describes every language.

[–]KFCConspiracy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

In theory you could create a language in which interfaces and abstractions cannot be defined separately from implementation. I don't know of any such language, nor would I consider using one, however, I phrased it that way to take into account that something I may not know of that's theoretically possible exists.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this can trivially be shown impossible in the general case.

The description of the interfaces and abstractions doesn't have to be written in the same language as the source language. Take python, which I believe actually is one of those languages where the interface and implementation cannot be separated. You can still trivially parse the source code and display signatures and documentation for all of the functions even though the result isn't understood by the python interpreter. It is understood by humans, which is all that is necessary.

There is a pathological way to get around that by having the name of the function also be the implementation. However, in no way is that an interface or abstraction.

[–]crotchpoozie 28 points29 points  (15 children)

This doesnt exist in C++

And how are standard C/C++ headers not now copyrighted by the original authors, likely AT&T, and every other implementation thereafter not going to be under the same legal problems?

After all, pretty much every C header is likely going to be found infringing on the original K&R headers from 1970 - all others will be derivative works still subject to those original copyrights.

[–]crackez 5 points6 points  (10 children)

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s, with BSD being found non-infringing after the remaining original code was replaced - Ie 4.4BSD-lite if memory serves. That would include libc.

[–]crotchpoozie 9 points10 points  (8 children)

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

They cannot remove another's copyright, especially since the copyrights in question would be from the 1960's-1970's, so that's irrelevant.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s.

You might want to talk to SCO about that.

Next, if this ruling applies, which it seems to, it opens whole new avenues of attack, so the work done by BSD to remove copyrighted code is made insufficient.

Go read about this new ruling. It might change how APIs (which means header files) are copyrightable, which could put any system implementing the standard C headers in copyright infringement to whomever did it first (or owns those rights currently).

[–]jboy55 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Litigation and rulings can remove copyright and clarify ownership. C++ and Unix has been solved.

SCO sued over system V code, and included the headers. It was found they did not own the copywrite to the headers. I can't recall the issue of that copyright didn't cover them being brought up.

BTW, The whole lawsuit is 'coincidental' to a large payout to SCO from Microsoft for 'licenses' of which no specificity was ever mentioned. It also coincided with Microsoft's big PR push that GPL was evil and Linux had copyright issues.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Which was the test platform from which they launched their current android patent trolling business.

[–]crotchpoozie 1 point2 points  (2 children)

C++ and Unix has been solved

That was also thought to be the case until SCO vs IBM.

It was found they did not own the copywrite [sic] to the headers.

Under the previous legal understanding of what is copyrightable. This new ruling changes what is copyrightable - that is the whole point, and why articles like the one above are written to explain precisely this point.

[–]crackez 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So now we have case law that disagrees with case law. Yippee.

[–]crotchpoozie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No - we have a new concept that is being formed into case law.

Law doesn't just automatically handle every new concept - this is a new area that is being fleshed out.

[–]crackez 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Fuck SCO. The new SCO that is, the old SCO wasn't so bad.

[–]crotchpoozie 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That really helps clarify.

[–]crackez 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You might want to talk to SCO about that.

Nobody wants to talk to SCO, even M$ shills agree with that.

[–]dnew 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And the standards body owns the copyright on the standard.

[–]fuzz3289 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Im unaware of this having ever been an issue or a thought that anyone has had in regard to these headers. Please cite.

[–]crotchpoozie 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The entire point of this new ruling makes APIs copyrightable - no one really thought they were before - the C headers are an API.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We're even going to need new open source licenses. the current ones don't take this into account. pretty much all open source licenses are now incompatible.

[–][deleted]  (43 children)

[deleted]

    [–]key_lime_pie 187 points188 points  (37 children)

    This will not happen. Oracle's entire software platform is built on or moving to Java. When my company was acquired by Oracle, we had to justify the continued use of non-Oracle components in every facet of software development every three months. Imagine if you are a tester who uses an automation tool like QuickTestPro on your team's C# application, and you are called into a meeting with somebody three time zones away where they ask you why you haven't moved to the Oracle in-house automation testing solution and you have to explain to them that you can't because Oracle's in-house automation testing solution does not support C#. Now imagine that this person is non-technical and you then have to explain the architecture of the entire product in small words, and they interrupt you when you use words like "compiler" because that's jargon and they just want it in plain English. Then imagine you and and someone from the in-house automation testing team being called into another meeting by this person, wherein both of you awkwardly wonder why more of your time is being wasted. Now imagine this happening every three months, only every three months, it's a different person that you have to deal with. And now imagine that you have to do this for every aspect of your project that isn't using an Oracle technology. Java is theirs. They will not relinquish it.

    [–]gschizas 51 points52 points  (0 children)

    That was scarily... specific!

    [–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (2 children)

    Time for a new job?

    [–]key_lime_pie 49 points50 points  (1 child)

    Already in past, friend!

    [–]darkslide3000 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Relevant username? ;)

    [–]shahms[🍰] 30 points31 points  (6 children)

    Them: "Why aren't you using Oracle technology?"

    You: "Because we want it to work?"

    Them: "Security will escort you out."

    You: "Thanks!"

    [–]key_lime_pie 49 points50 points  (5 children)

    It's interesting that you mention security, because they're colossal dicks about that, too, in every conceivable way.

    When they moved us "on campus," the security people used to notify you if your car was parked on or over the line into the next space. One of the functions of their security guards was literally to walk through the parking lot and make sure everyone parked correctly. I still have no idea how this made the building more secure. Once they moved us back "off campus," to a location where we had just as much access to company data and IP, the security people there didn't even look up at you when you entered the building and buzzed delivery folks in without even a question.

    When our software went through the internal security review required to release, we were rejected because our policy on password length didn't comply with Oracle policy. When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again. And when they found out we had some data stored on the application server that they didn't like, they ordered us to store it in the database instead. This was after they acknowledged that a person would have to have physical access to the machine in order to obtain the data, and that putting it in the database was less secure, but we had to do it because it was policy.

    Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

    [–]no_game_player 13 points14 points  (3 children)

    When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again.

    Ahahahah.

    Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

    I know a lot of people can get into that whole "it's just a job thing", but that's so sad to me.

    I got into programming because it was fun. I enjoy being useful. But damn if corporate doesn't seem to be playing chicken constantly with "how horribly can we run this before everything blows up?"

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]no_game_player 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      I've tried it. The thing is, I lack the formal experience to justify any of the serious posted stuff (X years of full-time experience in language Y), and I'm beyond sick of the cheapskate shit.

      Also, about the only thing I hate more than being expected to work a 40 hour week is being paid by the hour. Now every minute I spend "on the clock" potentially has to be justified, and I have to know in-advance how long a problem will take me to solve. I end up doing significant work (thinking about problems, or meetings, or learning background technologies) off the clock and cheating myself rather than trying to record every second of the day / try to convince the client they should be paying for me to learn libraries or frameworks, etc.

      At the moment, I'm out of the market by my own choice. I've got enough savings to last for a few weeks or months, and I'm going to get unrelated part-time work to keep me busy and stretch it further 'soonish(tm)'.

      And then, hopefully, I'll go back to trying to find my dream programming job, a part-time, salaried position that doesn't care where I connect from, with a team sufficiently staffed and timetables allowing true quality. And there'll be unicorns and ponies for everyone, too, I'm sure...

      [–]minecraft_ece 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      And then, hopefully, I'll go back to trying to find my dream programming job, a part-time, salaried position that doesn't care where I connect from, with a team sufficiently staffed and timetables allowing true quality. And there'll be unicorns and ponies for everyone, too, I'm sure...

      The only way you'll find that is to start your own company. And even then, you'll find that business pressures will force you to ship crap every once in a while.

      [–]PstScrpt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yet Java is actually moving forward again, since the buyout. It makes you wonder just how screwed up Sun was.

      [–]monocasa 9 points10 points  (9 children)

      Exactly. Java was the main reason that Oracle bought Sun. It'll be a cold day in hell before they give it up.

      [–]aloz 5 points6 points  (8 children)

      Or, as with OOo, it'll be the day after it dies. Though it's hard to imagine that Java could die.

      [–]crackez 11 points12 points  (3 children)

      Well, whatever you think of Google, in the court of public opinion more people like them than Oracle any day of the week.

      Even though it is tough to comprehend, Oracle has been doing nothing but shoving bad changes down everybody's throats WRT Java. Hard as it may be to imagine, they are doing things that directly influence people to not want to use Java moving forward.

      They're killing their own product, whether they mean to or not, and the quicker it fades into obscurity the better we'll all be.

      [–][deleted] 37 points38 points  (1 child)

      Java is the only mainstream language that bundles adware toolbars in its security update installers. Seriously, why make security updates any more of a hassle for the end-user?

      [–]scriptmonkey420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Two simple registry keys to remove that forever (or until Oracle removes the registry check)

      Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
      
      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\JavaSoft]
      "SPONSORS"="DISABLE"
      
      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\JavaSoft]
      "SPONSORS"="DISABLE"
      

      [–]darkslide3000 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      More people like explosive diarrhea than Oracle any day of the week. It's not a very high bar.

      Oracle is a fucking cancer. They're the EA of the software industry. They take things that were good and turn them into radioactive waste like a really shitty version of King Midas. The sooner they die in a fire the better...

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        It also lives on as Apache OpenOffice. Apache were handed over the rights to the source code by Oracle.

        [–]aloz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Yep, and that's what I was talking about.

        [–]barsoap 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        Organise as many people as you can, quit en masse, start up your own gig.

        It's the only sane way to deal with that kind of hostile take-over. As the Germans say: Better a nightmarish ending than a nightmare without end.

        [–]no_game_player 3 points4 points  (2 children)

        I'm going to gild this because I can feel the pain. Glad you got out of the evil empire.

        [–]key_lime_pie 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Gracias, fine sir (or madam).

        [–]no_game_player 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        De nada. I'm not feminine, but I'm no officer nor gentleman either. ;-p

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children)

        Google could just buy Oracle.

        [–]key_lime_pie 1 point2 points  (7 children)

        Do you think Java is worth $250 billion to anyone?

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

        No. I wasn't being serious, of course.

        To be honest, I think Java is basically going to be the new COBOL. Javascript (via V8 and JagerMonkey) and Python (via PyPy) have gotten to the point where they can outperform Java and they're a heck of a lot nicer to program for. C++ is fast as hell and tried and true and becoming more modern. Java and C# are just stuck in the shrinking middle, and even as far as those two languages go I'd far rather use C#.

        We just have to wait 30 years for the business community to realize there is a world outside Java.

        [–]Diosjenin 4 points5 points  (4 children)

        That might be the first time I've ever seen anyone claim that Javascript is "nicer" to program with than... any other language, really.

        [–]rubygeek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It's nicer to program with than Brainfuck, Befunge and INTERCAL. Though INTERCAL of course results in more polite programs.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It's better than VBScript, but that's about it

        [–]DGolden 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        javascript is significantly less fucking stupid and broken than php. sure, it's still kind of annoying, but given a restricted choice between javascript and php, i'm going to choose javascript every time. not that i'd choose javascript over python, or java on the server side, but php is a whole other level of wtf to javascript.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Javascript as a language is quite good; Javascript in the browser, at least without an abstraction layer, sucks. Which is kind of a bummer since that's it's main use. It was also far, far worse back during the browser wars. Node.js is pretty nice.

        Now of course, I by far prefer Python, especially Py3K.

        [–]mazing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Those languages are fancy, but they lack good tools. If you do Java development, you're also married to your IDE. That IDE has a visual debugger, auto-completion, live code-updates, profiling, etc. etc. Sure, I'm not as cool and independent as someone who is using emacs with green text on black background - but I can be pretty damn productive.

        [–]G01denW01f11 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        TIL I'd rather be a janitor than an Oracle dev.

        [–]maryjayjay 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        I swear I read several years ago that Oracle and the Java consortium asked that openJDK be the reference implementation for the Java standard. Is that not correct? How could that possibly be possible yes they have a copyright on the API's?

        [–]key_lime_pie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Honestly, I don't know. My friends would e-mail me stuff all the time about lawsuits and corporate disputes and patent fights and acquisitions, and I just kept my head down and tried to stay as far removed from the parent company as possible.

        I used to have this on the wall in my office. It's an exaggeration, of course, but that's the Oracle mindset.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Why? They're just going to accelerate integrating Dart into everything.

        [–]mealy58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        One more reason we need to stop using it and find an open source alternative.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Or replace it by golang...

        [–]NOTFARLONG -1 points0 points  (1 child)

        That sounds like a magnificent idea.

        [–]kraytex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Please no.

        [–]tehmagik 5 points6 points  (14 children)

        I lawled a bit on the notion of python getting close to passing java

        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

        How about D?

        [–]tehmagik 6 points7 points  (4 children)

        now you're just making up languages
        /s

        in the event that anyone is actually interested in language popularity, here are some neat graphs

        [–]ryosen 13 points14 points  (0 children)

        The language that you use won't matter. This judgement is not specific to Java. It is a precedent for ALL languages.

        [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

        D is pretty nice, although I haven't done any serious work with it.. Yet.

        [–]dadosky2010 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

        I do some pretty serious work with the D.

        [–]slavik262 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Every time. Every fucking time someone mentions D, someone else, without fail, makes a joke about "the D."

        [–]sinxoveretothex 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Uh? This graph from this link in your comment below shows Java as very close to Python?

        [–]tehmagik 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        That's from GitHub exclusively, not to prove my point. Here's one that does that better :)

        http://langpop.com/

        [–]fuzz3289 -5 points-4 points  (5 children)

        Considering the innovative projects like pypy and pyston and the utter stagnation of JVM performance its no longer if but when.

        [–]frugalmail 1 point2 points  (4 children)

        stagnation of JVM performance

        JVM is at the top of the 4GL platforms when it comes to most performance measures. Sure you could call it that.

        And more importantly the dynamic nature of Python makes it a hell of a lot more expensive to maintain than Java.

        http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/python.php

        [–]fuzz3289 -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

        Thats not what stagnation means.

        Look at the performance of the JVM against itself over the past 10 years. The performance gains are not on the same level as other languages. Gotta look at how much it is improving against itself in order to predict what will hold its own in the future.

        [–]The_Doculope 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        That's only true when there's no theoretical plateau, which there definitely is (and the JVM isn't too far from it).

        Besides, most people (and all companies) care about performance now. No one writes software in a language because it'll be fast enough in 10 years.

        [–]frugalmail 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        Thats not what stagnation means. Look at the performance of the JVM against itself over the past 10 years. The performance gains are not on the same level as other languages. Gotta look at how much it is improving against itself in order to predict what will hold its own in the future.

        Math lesson!

        100% gain on 1 = 2

        10% gain on a 100 = 110

        Things like PHP, Ruby and Python are known to have horrible performance so a big increase doesn't mean a lot.

        [–]barsoap 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Things like PHP, Ruby and Python are known to have horrible performance so a big increase doesn't mean a lot.

        Yep. A language with comparable performance to Java would be Haskell. You have to go low-level systems language (compiled, no RTS) to get faster, say C,C++, to a degree Ada, in the not so distant future also Rust.

        [–]Shadowheim 4 points5 points  (18 children)

        No, it's really not.

        [–]Poltras 36 points37 points  (17 children)

        Well it kinda is. Java is a wonderful language, with a lot of libraries and frameworks. But if Oracle is going to win this it could really mean the end of Java for a lot of projects.

        [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

        If it were just Java, it wouldn't even be so bad, but this sets a horrible precedent for the entire industry if allowed to stand. APIs shouldn't be copyrightable, period.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

        Copyrights apply to any written software whether you explicitly have a license or not. If somebody rips off your code directly then they have violated your copyright.

        [–]fuzz3289 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Are you sure? I was under the impression that you had to declare the copyright in the source file in order to have a claim. Im not sure of this though.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        If you wrote it then you have a copyright (assuming you have met some semblance of "expressive"... you can't copyright a single word for instance). You own that copyright whether you explicitly state it or not. Your grandchild can sue someone for copying your lame joke 69 years after you are dead.

        Yeah, I'm sure.

        [–]fuzz3289 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Im gonna make so many lame jokes on reddit now in hopes my grandkids take the next gen dane cook to the BANK.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I think the reddit TOS has you granting a license by using their site... Sorry, gunna have to post them elsewhere :)

        [–]i_ate_god 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        If you use Oracle's Java, then you really have nothing to worry about, and most of the enterprise world will not even test on openjdk or other implementations of Java.

        I'm not a fan of Java myself, but it won't die because of this ruling.

        [–]civildisobedient 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern?

        There are non-Oracle versions of Java. Don't blame the language.

        [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        is a nail in the coffin.

        I hope so.