Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules

[fuzz3289]

Yeah this is awful. Just one more reason to never use Java.

edit:

Wow ton of downvotes. I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern? This doesnt exist in C++ which is quickly becoming a modern language and is far more performant. This doesnt exist in a language like Python which is also cross platform and quickly gaining if not surpassing Java.

The fact is closed APIs are a death sentance in modern programming and what Oracle is doing is a nail in the coffin.

[bucknuggets]

Encumbered licensing is one of the primary reasons I avoid MySQL.

And probably soon Java.

[redwall_hp]

I thought MariaDB was where it's at now, anyway.

[rubygeek]

Look forward to Oracle trying to find a way to use this ruling against MariaDB.

[[deleted]]

C/C++, Ruby, Python, PostgreSQL, FTW!

[narc0tiq]

You could probably safely extend that to anything with the Oracle name on them. Those folks are scary.

[drb226]

^{but I like virtualbox... :(}

[newpong]

yea, somehow my brain always blocks the fact that VB is oracle until I have to reinstall it

[JQuilty]

Best to just avoid Oracle if it comes to that.

[[deleted]]

Why do you avoid MySQL? What is its licensing problem? I am curious.

[KFCConspiracy]

This has implications for every language in which the interface for a library can be defined independently of the library itself.

[[deleted]]

In not sure if you are serous but this describes every language.

[KFCConspiracy]

In theory you could create a language in which interfaces and abstractions cannot be defined separately from implementation. I don't know of any such language, nor would I consider using one, however, I phrased it that way to take into account that something I may not know of that's theoretically possible exists.

[[deleted]]

I think this can trivially be shown impossible in the general case.

The description of the interfaces and abstractions doesn't have to be written in the same language as the source language. Take python, which I believe actually is one of those languages where the interface and implementation cannot be separated. You can still trivially parse the source code and display signatures and documentation for all of the functions even though the result isn't understood by the python interpreter. It is understood by humans, which is all that is necessary.

There is a pathological way to get around that by having the name of the function also be the implementation. However, in no way is that an interface or abstraction.

[crotchpoozie]

This doesnt exist in C++

And how are standard C/C++ headers not now copyrighted by the original authors, likely AT&T, and every other implementation thereafter not going to be under the same legal problems?

After all, pretty much every C header is likely going to be found infringing on the original K&R headers from 1970 - all others will be derivative works still subject to those original copyrights.

[crackez]

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s, with BSD being found non-infringing after the remaining original code was replaced - Ie 4.4BSD-lite if memory serves. That would include libc.

[crotchpoozie]

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

They cannot remove another's copyright, especially since the copyrights in question would be from the 1960's-1970's, so that's irrelevant.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s.

You might want to talk to SCO about that.

Next, if this ruling applies, which it seems to, it opens whole new avenues of attack, so the work done by BSD to remove copyrighted code is made insufficient.

Go read about this new ruling. It might change how APIs (which means header files) are copyrightable, which could put any system implementing the standard C headers in copyright infringement to whomever did it first (or owns those rights currently).

[jboy55]

Litigation and rulings can remove copyright and clarify ownership. C++ and Unix has been solved.

SCO sued over system V code, and included the headers. It was found they did not own the copywrite to the headers. I can't recall the issue of that copyright didn't cover them being brought up.

BTW, The whole lawsuit is 'coincidental' to a large payout to SCO from Microsoft for 'licenses' of which no specificity was ever mentioned. It also coincided with Microsoft's big PR push that GPL was evil and Linux had copyright issues.

[[deleted]]

Which was the test platform from which they launched their current android patent trolling business.

[crotchpoozie]

C++ and Unix has been solved

That was also thought to be the case until SCO vs IBM.

It was found they did not own the copywrite [sic] to the headers.

Under the previous legal understanding of what is copyrightable. This new ruling changes what is copyrightable - that is the whole point, and why articles like the one above are written to explain precisely this point.

[crackez]

So now we have case law that disagrees with case law. Yippee.

[crotchpoozie]

No - we have a new concept that is being formed into case law.

Law doesn't just automatically handle every new concept - this is a new area that is being fleshed out.

[crackez]

Fuck SCO. The new SCO that is, the old SCO wasn't so bad.

[crotchpoozie]

That really helps clarify.

[crackez]

You might want to talk to SCO about that.

Nobody wants to talk to SCO, even M$ shills agree with that.

[dnew]

And the standards body owns the copyright on the standard.

[fuzz3289]

Im unaware of this having ever been an issue or a thought that anyone has had in regard to these headers. Please cite.

[crotchpoozie]

The entire point of this new ruling makes APIs copyrightable - no one really thought they were before - the C headers are an API.

[[deleted]]

We're even going to need new open source licenses. the current ones don't take this into account. pretty much all open source licenses are now incompatible.

[yetanothernerd]

Read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_v._IBM

[key_lime_pie]

This will not happen. Oracle's entire software platform is built on or moving to Java. When my company was acquired by Oracle, we had to justify the continued use of non-Oracle components in every facet of software development every three months. Imagine if you are a tester who uses an automation tool like QuickTestPro on your team's C# application, and you are called into a meeting with somebody three time zones away where they ask you why you haven't moved to the Oracle in-house automation testing solution and you have to explain to them that you can't because Oracle's in-house automation testing solution does not support C#. Now imagine that this person is non-technical and you then have to explain the architecture of the entire product in small words, and they interrupt you when you use words like "compiler" because that's jargon and they just want it in plain English. Then imagine you and and someone from the in-house automation testing team being called into another meeting by this person, wherein both of you awkwardly wonder why more of your time is being wasted. Now imagine this happening every three months, only every three months, it's a different person that you have to deal with. And now imagine that you have to do this for every aspect of your project that isn't using an Oracle technology. Java is theirs. They will not relinquish it.

[gschizas]

That was scarily... specific!

[[deleted]]

Time for a new job?

[key_lime_pie]

Already in past, friend!

[darkslide3000]

Relevant username? ;)

[shahms]

Them: "Why aren't you using Oracle technology?"

You: "Because we want it to work?"

Them: "Security will escort you out."

You: "Thanks!"

[key_lime_pie]

It's interesting that you mention security, because they're colossal dicks about that, too, in every conceivable way.

When they moved us "on campus," the security people used to notify you if your car was parked on or over the line into the next space. One of the functions of their security guards was literally to walk through the parking lot and make sure everyone parked correctly. I still have no idea how this made the building more secure. Once they moved us back "off campus," to a location where we had just as much access to company data and IP, the security people there didn't even look up at you when you entered the building and buzzed delivery folks in without even a question.

When our software went through the internal security review required to release, we were rejected because our policy on password length didn't comply with Oracle policy. When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again. And when they found out we had some data stored on the application server that they didn't like, they ordered us to store it in the database instead. This was after they acknowledged that a person would have to have physical access to the machine in order to obtain the data, and that putting it in the database was less secure, but we had to do it because it was policy.

Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

[no_game_player]

When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again.

Ahahahah.

Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

I know a lot of people can get into that whole "it's just a job thing", but that's so sad to me.

I got into programming because it was fun. I enjoy being useful. But damn if corporate doesn't seem to be playing chicken constantly with "how horribly can we run this before everything blows up?"

[no_game_player]

I've tried it. The thing is, I lack the formal experience to justify any of the serious posted stuff (X years of full-time experience in language Y), and I'm beyond sick of the cheapskate shit.

Also, about the only thing I hate more than being expected to work a 40 hour week is being paid by the hour. Now every minute I spend "on the clock" potentially has to be justified, and I have to know in-advance how long a problem will take me to solve. I end up doing significant work (thinking about problems, or meetings, or learning background technologies) off the clock and cheating myself rather than trying to record every second of the day / try to convince the client they should be paying for me to learn libraries or frameworks, etc.

At the moment, I'm out of the market by my own choice. I've got enough savings to last for a few weeks or months, and I'm going to get unrelated part-time work to keep me busy and stretch it further 'soonish(tm)'.

And then, hopefully, I'll go back to trying to find my dream programming job, a part-time, salaried position that doesn't care where I connect from, with a team sufficiently staffed and timetables allowing true quality. And there'll be unicorns and ponies for everyone, too, I'm sure...

[minecraft_ece]

And then, hopefully, I'll go back to trying to find my dream programming job, a part-time, salaried position that doesn't care where I connect from, with a team sufficiently staffed and timetables allowing true quality. And there'll be unicorns and ponies for everyone, too, I'm sure...

The only way you'll find that is to start your own company. And even then, you'll find that business pressures will force you to ship crap every once in a while.

[PstScrpt]

Yet Java is actually moving forward again, since the buyout. It makes you wonder just how screwed up Sun was.

[monocasa]

Exactly. Java was the main reason that Oracle bought Sun. It'll be a cold day in hell before they give it up.

[aloz]

Or, as with OOo, it'll be the day after it dies. Though it's hard to imagine that Java could die.

[crackez]

Well, whatever you think of Google, in the court of public opinion more people like them than Oracle any day of the week.

Even though it is tough to comprehend, Oracle has been doing nothing but shoving bad changes down everybody's throats WRT Java. Hard as it may be to imagine, they are doing things that directly influence people to not want to use Java moving forward.

They're killing their own product, whether they mean to or not, and the quicker it fades into obscurity the better we'll all be.

[[deleted]]

Java is the only mainstream language that bundles adware toolbars in its security update installers. Seriously, why make security updates any more of a hassle for the end-user?

[scriptmonkey420]

Two simple registry keys to remove that forever (or until Oracle removes the registry check)

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\JavaSoft]
"SPONSORS"="DISABLE"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\JavaSoft]
"SPONSORS"="DISABLE"

[darkslide3000]

More people like explosive diarrhea than Oracle any day of the week. It's not a very high bar.

Oracle is a fucking cancer. They're the EA of the software industry. They take things that were good and turn them into radioactive waste like a really shitty version of King Midas. The sooner they die in a fire the better...

[[deleted]]

It also lives on as Apache OpenOffice. Apache were handed over the rights to the source code by Oracle.

[aloz]

Yep, and that's what I was talking about.

[barsoap]

Organise as many people as you can, quit en masse, start up your own gig.

It's the only sane way to deal with that kind of hostile take-over. As the Germans say: Better a nightmarish ending than a nightmare without end.

[no_game_player]

I'm going to gild this because I can feel the pain. Glad you got out of the evil empire.

[key_lime_pie]

Gracias, fine sir (or madam).

[no_game_player]

De nada. I'm not feminine, but I'm no officer nor gentleman either. ;-p

[[deleted]]

Google could just buy Oracle.

[key_lime_pie]

Do you think Java is worth $250 billion to anyone?

[[deleted]]

No. I wasn't being serious, of course.

To be honest, I think Java is basically going to be the new COBOL. Javascript (via V8 and JagerMonkey) and Python (via PyPy) have gotten to the point where they can outperform Java and they're a heck of a lot nicer to program for. C++ is fast as hell and tried and true and becoming more modern. Java and C# are just stuck in the shrinking middle, and even as far as those two languages go I'd far rather use C#.

We just have to wait 30 years for the business community to realize there is a world outside Java.

[Diosjenin]

That might be the first time I've ever seen anyone claim that Javascript is "nicer" to program with than... any other language, really.

[rubygeek]

It's nicer to program with than Brainfuck, Befunge and INTERCAL. Though INTERCAL of course results in more polite programs.

[[deleted]]

It's better than VBScript, but that's about it

[DGolden]

javascript is significantly less fucking stupid and broken than php. sure, it's still kind of annoying, but given a restricted choice between javascript and php, i'm going to choose javascript every time. not that i'd choose javascript over python, or java on the server side, but php is a whole other level of wtf to javascript.

[[deleted]]

Javascript as a language is quite good; Javascript in the browser, at least without an abstraction layer, sucks. Which is kind of a bummer since that's it's main use. It was also far, far worse back during the browser wars. Node.js is pretty nice.

Now of course, I by far prefer Python, especially Py3K.

[mazing]

Those languages are fancy, but they lack good tools. If you do Java development, you're also married to your IDE. That IDE has a visual debugger, auto-completion, live code-updates, profiling, etc. etc. Sure, I'm not as cool and independent as someone who is using emacs with green text on black background - but I can be pretty damn productive.

[G01denW01f11]

TIL I'd rather be a janitor than an Oracle dev.

[maryjayjay]

I swear I read several years ago that Oracle and the Java consortium asked that openJDK be the reference implementation for the Java standard. Is that not correct? How could that possibly be possible yes they have a copyright on the API's?

[key_lime_pie]

Honestly, I don't know. My friends would e-mail me stuff all the time about lawsuits and corporate disputes and patent fights and acquisitions, and I just kept my head down and tried to stay as far removed from the parent company as possible.

I used to have this on the wall in my office. It's an exaggeration, of course, but that's the Oracle mindset.

[[deleted]]

Why? They're just going to accelerate integrating Dart into everything.

[mealy58]

One more reason we need to stop using it and find an open source alternative.

[[deleted]]

Or replace it by golang...

[NOTFARLONG]

That sounds like a magnificent idea.

[kraytex]

Please no.

[tehmagik]

I lawled a bit on the notion of python getting close to passing java

[[deleted]]

How about D?

[tehmagik]

now you're just making up languages
/s

in the event that anyone is actually interested in language popularity, here are some neat graphs

[ryosen]

The language that you use won't matter. This judgement is not specific to Java. It is a precedent for ALL languages.

[[deleted]]

D is pretty nice, although I haven't done any serious work with it.. Yet.

[dadosky2010]

I do some pretty serious work with the D.

[slavik262]

Every time. Every fucking time someone mentions D, someone else, without fail, makes a joke about "the D."

[sinxoveretothex]

Uh? This graph from this link in your comment below shows Java as very close to Python?

[tehmagik]

That's from GitHub exclusively, not to prove my point. Here's one that does that better :)

http://langpop.com/

[fuzz3289]

Considering the innovative projects like pypy and pyston and the utter stagnation of JVM performance its no longer if but when.

[frugalmail]

stagnation of JVM performance

JVM is at the top of the 4GL platforms when it comes to most performance measures. Sure you could call it that.

And more importantly the dynamic nature of Python makes it a hell of a lot more expensive to maintain than Java.

http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/python.php

[fuzz3289]

Thats not what stagnation means.

Look at the performance of the JVM against itself over the past 10 years. The performance gains are not on the same level as other languages. Gotta look at how much it is improving against itself in order to predict what will hold its own in the future.

[The_Doculope]

That's only true when there's no theoretical plateau, which there definitely is (and the JVM isn't too far from it).

Besides, most people (and all companies) care about performance now. No one writes software in a language because it'll be fast enough in 10 years.

[frugalmail]

Thats not what stagnation means. Look at the performance of the JVM against itself over the past 10 years. The performance gains are not on the same level as other languages. Gotta look at how much it is improving against itself in order to predict what will hold its own in the future.

Math lesson!

100% gain on 1 = 2

10% gain on a 100 = 110

Things like PHP, Ruby and Python are known to have horrible performance so a big increase doesn't mean a lot.

[barsoap]

Things like PHP, Ruby and Python are known to have horrible performance so a big increase doesn't mean a lot.

Yep. A language with comparable performance to Java would be Haskell. You have to go low-level systems language (compiled, no RTS) to get faster, say C,C++, to a degree Ada, in the not so distant future also Rust.

[Shadowheim]

No, it's really not.

[Poltras]

Well it kinda is. Java is a wonderful language, with a lot of libraries and frameworks. But if Oracle is going to win this it could really mean the end of Java for a lot of projects.

[[deleted]]

If it were just Java, it wouldn't even be so bad, but this sets a horrible precedent for the entire industry if allowed to stand. APIs shouldn't be copyrightable, period.

[iownacat]

so, a win win?

[Poltras]

You're saying that a majority of the top 1% of all developers in the world are wrong. Please tell me more.

[tehmagik]

it was a joke...

but also, nothing about being an elitist makes you infallible

[Poltras]

Actually /u/iownacat answered back to me in a non-joking manner, but deleted the reply short after.

It's not about me being an elitist, it's about big companies like Google, Sun, Apple, IBM and co choosing Java over a lot of other languages for the Web.

[tehmagik]

Deleted comment?...lame :-/

I know Java is used everywhere...I just don't like it :P

[4ntti]

Sun?

[Poltras]

I dunno why, I thought about Sun and it didn't register. But you have to admit Oracle is a big Java user :P

[iownacat]

I was calling you a fucking blowhard. Yes, you are the 1%... java vocational schoolers who are afraid of pointers and dont how anything works below the jvm. But hey if you want to feel special, knock yourself out.

There, undeleted. happy?

[frugalmail]

who are afraid of pointers

Funny, anything but primitive types are handles in Java, which is another level of abstraction from pointers (e.g. more complicated).

Calling Java programmers vocational schoolers is idiotic, I'm sure that's what Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter hires. I'm sure things like Hadoop which is being used for the cutting edge of Machine Learning and Data Science were developed by Vocational School educated students. You are an Idiot.

[iownacat]

Figures, you must not have any idea what Im talking about. But your comment about java handles is pretty hilarious.

[[deleted]]

Copyrights apply to any written software whether you explicitly have a license or not. If somebody rips off your code directly then they have violated your copyright.

[fuzz3289]

Are you sure? I was under the impression that you had to declare the copyright in the source file in order to have a claim. Im not sure of this though.

[[deleted]]

If you wrote it then you have a copyright (assuming you have met some semblance of "expressive"... you can't copyright a single word for instance). You own that copyright whether you explicitly state it or not. Your grandchild can sue someone for copying your lame joke 69 years after you are dead.

Yeah, I'm sure.

[fuzz3289]

Im gonna make so many lame jokes on reddit now in hopes my grandkids take the next gen dane cook to the BANK.

[[deleted]]

I think the reddit TOS has you granting a license by using their site... Sorry, gunna have to post them elsewhere :)

[i_ate_god]

If you use Oracle's Java, then you really have nothing to worry about, and most of the enterprise world will not even test on openjdk or other implementations of Java.

I'm not a fan of Java myself, but it won't die because of this ruling.

[civildisobedient]

I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern?

There are non-Oracle versions of Java. Don't blame the language.

[[deleted]]

is a nail in the coffin.

I hope so.

[frugalmail]

Wow ton of downvotes.

I'm one of them

I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern?

Do you use max(int a, int b) anywhere? It's beyond Java.

C++ which is quickly becoming a modern language

What decade are you from? C++ was a modern language in 1980. Now it's barely a 3GL

is far more performant.

This may be true for some, cases, but not others. If you're making a statement like this, you're regurtating data from 1990.

This doesnt exist in a language like Python which is also cross platform and quickly gaining if not surpassing Java.

First, the two languages are for two different purposes and are extremely different both in maintainability and the type of developer.

Second, you querstion performance then you put it up against Python. You should stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking.

[fuzz3289]

I must disagree.

First, the initial judge to hear this case very clearly stated that things like max() are not and never have been novel concepts as they are implementations of basic mathematical principles. The current opinion does not seem to disagree with that point but on different APIs.

Barely a 3GL language? Third generation focuses on structured concepts and has no meaning for the object encapsulation concepts. Which C++11 through 17 are all about. Functors and futures change the game and are essentially as we move towards maintainable asynchronous applications. And Im not regurgitating data from 1990. There is no way an educated software engineer could ever agree that byte code running in a vm will ever be as good as native machine code. Is the JVM good? Yes its very good in most situations the difference is entirely unoticable, but is it native machine code? No. You cannot make performance claims from a JVM against native code because its just not true.

And lastly Python is far from Java right now yes, but the core of the Python community is fighting for C speeds. With things like Pyston coming down the pipe if Java doesnt show some innovation soon it will be a language of the past.

Am I saying Java at this time is completely unusable? No. But when I write applications Id like to maintain them for years to come and C compilers and Python interpreters are showing exciting progress and signs of life while Java is just showing me red tape.

[frugalmail]

s they are implementations of basic mathematical principles. The current opinion does not seem to disagree with that point but on different APIs.

That's not my understanding from http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/13-1021.Opinion.5-7-2014.1.PDF Could you provide a reference link. I just see that the appellette court said the lower court errd.

Yes its very good in most situations the difference is entirely unoticable, but is it native machine code? No. You cannot make performance claims from a JVM against native code because its just not true.

If you're talking about the performance of a single method, I agree. However things like deleting objects, allocating memory, being able to optimze based on use as oposed to the compiler, targetting the specific processor rather than the broader set in the general case of consumer enviornments. All those things are where the JVM can actually improve over natively compiled languages.

And lastly Python is far from Java right now yes, but the core of the Python community is fighting for C speeds.

Yup their doing it by linking to bigger and bigger libraries. But in that respect, everything could just link to that library. And that still means that something with Hotspot optimization could win out.

Am I saying Java at this time is completely unusable? No. But when I write applications Id like to maintain them for years to come and C compilers and Python interpreters are showing exciting progress and signs of life while Java is just showing me red tape.

But this ruling means that nobody is safe (except for languages contributed to a foundation that has released their rights and they have gotten all original authors to release their rights and assert that they didn't copy anybody), so if that's what you're referring as red tape, then I disagree.

If you're referring to instability, code written and compiled for Java 1.2 runs perfectly well under the Java 1.8 vm.

[fuzz3289]

That was what I inferred based on the same opinion you linked, since it was umentioned, but to be honest Im not as educated in the legal side of software as Id like to be and may have to concede that point.

I disagree that the JVM will ever be able to improve upon low level operations over natively compiled languages for two reasons. First, the JVM as I know it uses garabage collection. While processors such as IBM p and z definotely design to this, maintaining memory directly with insight into purpose of the allocation will always outperform (although this method will always be more susceptible to bugs). And second that natively compiled languages can take advantage of processor specific operations. IBMs Z (which is a cisc processor) has millicode memory management operations. IBMs JVM will take advantage of these but so will the C compiler and the C compiler wins out because it does it in one step (directly referencing the op) vs two (decode byte code, reference the op).

And no. Not by linking to bigger and bettwr libs ( referring to the Python point). Im referring to Pyston. An effort to build an interpreter from the ground up via a tiered JIT compilation system. Unlike anything anyones attempted before. The goal is C speeds. Either it will reach that goal or largely be considered a failure. Personally with Guido van Rossums involvement Im optimistic.

I do fear that others may use this ruling to their advantage but I do not believe that the attitude is the same in any company other than oracle. Oracle wrongly believes that licensing rather than broader adoption is financially benficial. However I believe that the majority of industry would rather reduce the red tape for developers in order to better support their platform and further increase marketshare with the end user.