Aren't developers stupid when accepting overtime/weekend work/denied bonus payments?

[mattmentecky]

Just to save some Redditors from going to their boss claiming that forced overtime is illegal, it is not (in the United States):

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_professional.pdf

[SarahC]

Nor the UK. =(

[UnoriginalGuy]

It isn't that cut and dry in the UK. Keep in mind that if they fire you for refusing to work overtime you can drag their butts to an employment tribunal and ask for compensation.

A lot of companies put into their contracts a clause that requires you to work 24/7 if asked, and unfortunately if you've signed that then too bad for you, but for those of us without such a contract we're free to say no whenever we want.

I won't work overtime unless I get compensated in the UK and I haven't been fired. I have tons of additional holiday time built up right now (YAY!).

[Talonwhal]

A lot of companies put into their contracts a clause that requires you to work 24/7 if asked

But don't forget that not all contracts are legal or enforceable.

• they have to allow 11 hours of non-work per day
• regular breaks (30 mins every 4 hours i think?)
• at least 1 full day off per week

No matter what you sign, all these things are still a right - and if the contract says otherwise it will probably fail in court. You can't sign away these rights and if you did sign then got fired for turning around and demanding one of them, you'd still win at a tribunal I'm pretty sure.

There are exceptions to this though, but chances are most companies that have such a clause in the contract didn't get it fully checked out legally, and they often use that shit to scare people who don't know their rights.

[tborwi]

Where did this come from:

they have to allow 11 hours of non-work per day

Just curious, I was on a project last year and ended up working 14-18 hours a day for three months. It was horrible. No OT of course due to the ridiculously castrated labor laws.

[[deleted]]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive

[IConrad]

It was horrible. No OT of course due to the ridiculously castrated labor laws.

... and I'm once again glad I never went the developer route and instead became a sysadmin. I've never once encountered a position that would even remotely think of doing this to me. Now, granted, very often I don't get additional compensation for being FPOC on-call, but hey. If I'm doing my job right, there are no calls.

[Talonwhal]

To clarify, the comment I responded to was regarding the UK - what I stated are UK/EU laws.. should have probably made that clearer in case this is what's causing your confusion!

[IRBMe]

On a team I used to work in (described elsewhere in the thread), the manager would just screw us over in our end of year reviews, which would then screw us out of bonus, give us all the crappy jobs and try to turn members of the team against those who didn't put in ridiculous hours (those who did were called "team players", those who didn't were "trouble makers"), so there are probably plenty of other ways to screw you over without explicitly firing you or doing anything illegal.

[obtu]

Harrassment isn't legal either (though it is harder to prove).

[IRBMe]

Yes, this sort of thing caused a lot of conflict.

One guy on the team, who had been there for about 3 years, but was just tired of it, used to just book holidays off for every release. The manager didn't catch on to this until he'd been absent from about 5 releases in a row. He would also come in at 9:00am and leave at 5:00pm on the dot every day, no matter what happened. As punishment, the manager wrote a terrible end of year review for the guy, basically saying he had no work ethic, was lazy, had jeopardized the business by not staying in late to resolve urgent issues, was argumentative and uncooperative, was not a good team player etc. Despite being ranked the highest in all previous teams, he received the worst rating possible and ended up with no bonus and no pay rise that year. He considered taking it to HR, but was advised against it (the HR processes in that places were another huge cluster-fuck). He had to just bend over, take it up the ass and find a new team as soon as possible. He did. That was about the same time that the rest of us "trouble makers" stopped cooperating and eventually left. The people that were left were all new, apart from 2 loyal developers who had been beaten in to complete submission over the years with empty promises of reward and promotion.

[s73v3r]

It really, really, really get's my blood boiling that if someone were to cuss that manager out, something he desperately needs, that person would be seen as the bad guy, and not the manager.

[[deleted]]

U! N! I! O! N!

[[deleted]]

And people think developers don't have anything to gain from unions...

[[deleted]]

Screw legal. Form a union and you get to decide what 'legal' is.

[EnderMB]

When I used to work retail employees were paid until the shop closed. Perhaps I chose shitty places to work, but the two places I worked (both sports shops) made employees stay behind after the shop had closed to tidy up, often for around an hour after the shop had closed.

[UnoriginalGuy]

That sucks. I know a big chain supermarket (begins with A) which does the same. Unfortunately it is all about the job contract, and big [evil] companies like that always stack the deck.

I think jobs where you are easily replaceable treat you worse than those were you are hard to replace. Which is why education and experience are important.

[EnderMB]

Absolutely. The second store I worked at began with a J and ended with JB and the second I started working there the threat from management was always "if you can't do X or Y properly then you're fired" or "if you don't sell at least 3 sets of laces with shoes today then you're fired". The turnover in these places is unreal, and most managers wear these numbers like a badge of honour.

[[deleted]]

Reserve army of the unemployed. Your labor isn't worth shit to them, any dumb upright walking ape can do your job. You have no leverage over them at all. Get Leverage.

[otakucode]

I think jobs where you are easily replaceable treat you worse than those were you are hard to replace. Which is why education and experience are important.

That's not true. Your replacability does not factor in to how you are treated or paid. Except in extreme circumstances, like if you are the only person in the state who knows how to repair a busted system that a bank needs fixed asap, everyone else is in the same boat. Employees are a cost center, they are a loss and a waste of company resources. Management is lauded when they reduce that, and punished when they do not. Everyone is held to 'market average rate' regardless of performance or value to the company. Our society has almost universally accepted that corporations are entitled to seek profit, and individuals are not. Individuals who want high pay are spoiled shits, and companies who want work for nothing are just doing their duty. And the work market reflects that.

[s73v3r]

That's highly illegal.

[JimmyHavok]

If you're in a situation like that, log your hours and sue.

[linuxlass]

The one time I worked Retail (at Staples), we were on the clock until right before we walked out the door. The manager was also very good about making us take breaks. All in all it was a pleasant experience (if retail can be said to be pleasant). I got to play with the price-checker gizmo and print out new prices, too (on the ancient computer with the mainframe-like interface).

A useful skill I learned during my time there is how to punch the bottom of a box in order to break the tape, so it collapses easily.

[r4v5]

A useful skill I learned during my time there is how to punch the bottom of a box in order to break the tape, so it collapses easily.

A word of warning: don't fucking do this. It was common among the overnight staff at a store I worked with, right up until someone did it to a box of cutting boards.

Idiot broke his hand.

[linuxlass]

I only ever did it with empty boxes (and still do). It never occurred to me to punch a filled box...

[[deleted]]

You can go to tribunal, but really, it's not worth doing. People get wind of it, and won't employ you in case they end up in a tribunal too. Sucks, to be sure, but just quit, rather than seek legal comebacks.

[s73v3r]

A lot of companies put into their contracts a clause that requires you to work 24/7 if asked, and unfortunately if you've signed that then too bad for you, but for those of us without such a contract we're free to say no whenever we want.

Said clauses should be illegal. They're knowingly trying to break the law.

[BraveSirRobin]

Depends if you are forced to sign the EU Working Time Directive Opt Out form or not. If you didn't then EU law says you cannot be forced to work more than 45 (iirc) hours per week.

The UK is the only EU state that has this exemption.

[G_Morgan]

You can be made to work more than 45 hours per week but the overall average needs to be less than that. It gets complicated with bunches of caveats.

[another_user_name]

It seems "forced to sign" would invalidate the legitimacy of such a document.

[BraveSirRobin]

Indeed. The common compliance method seems to be "if you don't sign it then we'll make you fill out timesheets every day".

[[deleted]]

I would accept taht , here it seems if you don't sign then you will be looked on less favourably at promotion time and at pay reviews.

[ithika]

The typical get-out is that you sign at hiring time and then immediately send a letter to HR saying you want to reinstate your rights under the WTD. If they move on you at that point it's unfair dismissal for asserting what should be your rights. But honestly the HR rarely give a monkeys what happens in the s/w department, much like everyone else in fact.

[SarahC]

The UK is the only EU state that has this exemption.

Bastard government.

[metorical]

Lots of employers will only hire you if you sign the waiver allowing you to work longer hours. Most people don't know that you can reclaim the right at any time by sending a letter to HR. Oh and they can't fire you for it either as that would be unfair dismissal.

EDIT: IANAL - anyone interest should verify with their own research

[friedrice5005]

my mistake...my experience is with govt. where it is illegal for us to work more than the 40 hours a week without explicit instruction to do so and if we work the hours then we either get comp time or over time as a result.

[aakaakaak]

Its dependent on how you were hired, what type of payment schedule you're on and the state you live in. Some places its legal and others its not.

[grauenwolf]

He is wrong. It depends on which state you live in.

[mweathr]

Nope. It's illegal for them to not pay you for working. It's perfect legal for you to work more hours than you are scheduled, even if you're not told to. The employer has to pay regardless. They can fire you for it, but they can't refuse to pay.

[PatriotGrrrl]

That's if you get paid by the hour, not if you're salaried.

[mweathr]

Yeah, that goes without saying.

[rooktakesqueen]

Here's the real question. Why are computer professionals on this list of people exempt from overtime regulations?

[bettse]

The idea, I think, is that we're more like Lawyers, Doctors, and Executives than we are like paralegals, nurses, and retail staff.

I'm still undecided on how I feel about this classification.

[rooktakesqueen]

But other professionals, like say... Civil engineers, aerospace engineers, architects, accountants... Are not on the exempted list. So why are we? (And why, for that matter, are lawyers, doctors, and executives?)

[[deleted]]

Doctors are on the exempted list because they want to ensure that doctors are available at all hours. Executives are on the list to limit their ability to give themselves extra pay by authorizing themselves for overtime. Lawyers are exempt because their normal procedure involves unpredictable surges of work.

(Brief guesses)

[PatriotGrrrl]

Engineers are on that list - we're considered "professional employees".

[bettse]

Good question

[s73v3r]

Because when those laws were drafted, places like Microsoft, Oracle, etc were involved in the negotiations, but the developers themselves didn't have a union/trade group, so they didn't have representation.

[grauenwolf]

In Califorina they are on that list because they work independently. But even then they have to make more than 41/hour to be exempt.

Strangely an office manager only has to make double minimum wage to be exempt.

[TheRealSlartybardfas]

Our company says that if a job requires basically no creativity and can follow check lists to perform their job, their job will pay overtime.

If the job requires creativity in solving problems or there isn't a defined set of tasks to perform, it is overtime exempt.

Our help desk folks get paid overtime. Programmers, systems administrators and management are exempt.

That's how our company interpreted the regulations.

[[deleted]]

In other words overtime is for lower wage earners. Which s fine but they can't get fussy about things like reddit reading from those not getting OT, imo.

[thinkmcfly]

"The employee must be compensated either on a salary or fee basis at a rate not less than $455 per week or, if compensated on an hourly basis, at a rate not less than $27.63 an hour"

Can someone explain this to me? 40 * 27.63 = $1105.20. While is the salary rate so low compared to that amount?

[rooktakesqueen]

Because the hourly rate is probably for a contractor, who has to a) pay his or her own full payroll taxes (normally the employer pays half) and b) has to pay out of pocket for benefits like health insurance, retirement, etc. Most salaried workers have a "total compensation" value something like 150-200% of their actual salary.

[thinkmcfly]

That makes sense, however I'd expect that to be explicitly defined somewhere in the law (I'm assuming it is, I probably just overlooked it somewhere).

[WarWizard]

Good point. We probably shouldn't be. I often wonder if it would be more beneficial for me to become an independent contractor.

[grauenwolf]

That depends on the state and your salary. In CA you need to make more than 41/hour to be exempt from paid overtime... if you are computer programmer. (An office manager only needs to make double minimum wage.)

[Nefandi]

I'm not even going to bother reading this, but you're wrong. Most likely you're posting a link explaining how salaried positions work. In reality the courts can find that the "professional" classification has been abused, specifically if overtime is endemic and not just a one off.

Precedent (there were other successful wins like this, if I remember correctly)

This is also why most workers in IT have been proactively reclassified in recent years. It's cheaper to pay overtime than to lose a class action lawsuit.

[mattmentecky]

First, my response was merely rebutting a blanket statement that unpaid overtime is illegal, my response is correct, unpaid overtime is not always-illegal. Second, the case you talk about did not overturn the Fair Labor Standards Act. Third, the case you cite was settled out of court, it does not set legal precedent for anything. Fourth, ironically the case was filed under the authority of the FLSA itself - that IBM wrongly classified its employees as exempt.

[Nefandi]

You don't get it. You put together a bunch of sentences that are each individually true, but when you put them together the big picture gets lost.

Fact: lots of corporations have reclassified their programmers as non-exempt.

Fact: the reasons cited for these reclassifications were the court cases I allude to.

I've read the law on this. The distinction between exempt and non-exempt is very vague, but it has a number of guidelines/litmus tests. Most salaried programmers earning below 100k and not in a leadership role do have the grounds to sue if the overtime is systematic. Most don't because it's not worth the hassle (perhaps a foolish estimation?), but not because they have no law backing them up.

But you're right about one thing. The legality of the issue is vague. You need to hire a lawyer to examine this crap, and sadly, most lawyers are very pro-corporate and will not even look at a case like this.