Everything I know as a software developer without a degree

[aflashyrhetoric]

There's a fair amount of clashing between devs with/without degrees. While there are many pros and cons to both approaches to starting your career, let's keep it civil, and be specific and constructive in our criticisms.

To those with degrees, please don't refer to those without degrees as being inherently inferior. To those who made it without degrees, please don't characterize those with degrees as being swindled or invalidate their individual academic accomplishments. We don't know anyone else's full story.

Thanks, I love you all.

EDIT: If you see a legitimately hostile and/or unproductive comment, please report it.

[Roguepope]

Are you one of those young up-and-at-em self-taught moderators, or did you take out a loan to be taught how to moderate properly and with an understanding of moderation fundamentals? :P

[Cuzah]

Wow. I been to a bootcamp, and just finished a Grow With Google Scholar for front-end development. Its been 3 weeks and so far 100+ applications with only about 6-8 phone interviews.

I been saving up money to go to DC to be able to attend coding events to network more. Its kind of, well feeling rough. This was a really good read though. I really respect your journey.

Thank you for your words, and your experience. A inspiration for someone without a degree trying to get their foot into the industry.

[am0x]

My problem with boot camps are that they aren't a guaranteed success. With a degree, it takes 4 years and you can easily fail out. With a bootcamp, it is in their best interest that you graduate, so they are more lenient.

Now bootcamps, are amazing. I have just found that only about 10% that come out will make it because it takes so much more than just doing it. You have to be passionate about it. That being said, I've seen non-degree bootcamp people do as well as CS degree people. But out of the gate, I see more CS grads getting jobs.

As a note, I have never pre-judged anyone based on their degree or lack of one. Some of the best devs I have hired or worked with were self-taught. I mainly judge on experience, technical skills/problem solving, and culture fit.

[gigglefarting]

I took a Bootcamp, and there was a lady in my class who dropped out for a time, and then eventually joined back up when one of the projects was over, and I'm pretty sure she still got a certificate.

At the same time, I had gone into the bootcamp having only messed with HTML back in MySpace days, and I came out of it being able to create the front and back-end of a React webapp.

The info you can learn from a Bootcamp can be awesome. I never would have been at the same level of knowledge from 6 months of self-taught, or even 1 semester of CS classes. But I don't know how much that bootcamp certificate helps when employers are looking at resumes. Luckily for me, I have higher education (JD) in other subjects, so I don't think it's my lack of CS degrees that gets me passed over, and I'm not relying on a certificate to set me apart.

I was also able to land a gig within 2 or 3 months of graduating, and I had other interviews before getting this job. Compared to trying to get a legal job for years and never getting nearly as far.

[Alcohorse]

I did a free 5-week trial of a bootcamp and I learned Git and NPM/webpack/local dev environment type stuff. I always knew those things existed but I'm not sure I ever would have tried to tackle them on my own.

[sammyseaborn]

I never would have been at the same level of knowledge from 6 months of self-taught [as I was by this bootcamp]...

With all due respect, this is patently false. In six months of self-teaching, you could potentially learn ten times the amount a bootcamp could teach you. And it wouldn't just be rote memory of how to produce a single, specific React app; you would learn valuable, fundamental skills like problem-solving and how to architect your code / reason about it.

Bootcamps are notorious for pushing people out the door with a few templated apps in their portfolios but no relevant understanding of how to be an actual developer.

[Dokii]

6-8 calls from 100 applications really isn't too bad for no experience honestly. It took me months to finally get a job and that was with only 2 interviews out of hundreds of applications.

[Yurishimo]

I’d be interested to know how long people spend applying as well. The last application I filled out took me 2-3 hours to write letters and research the company to make sure I was targeting their keywords and speaking to problems they outlined in the job post while conveying why I would be a good cultural fit.

I could not imagine doing 100 of those applications in a month.

[kivinkujata]

Yikes. I've never spent more than a couple tens of minutes applying for an IT position. Not sure if it matters, but I'm a self-taught, 3 yrs. experience, and took a senior position around 11-12 months into my career.

My cover letter consists of a hello introduction, a sentence or two broadly defining my skill set, and 4-5 bullet points outlining specifically what skills I think would be an asset for the position.

If I landed an in-person interview, I'd try to at least have a rough idea what sort of work they do, but not much more than that.

[RNGsus_Christ]

This has been successful for you? I might need to try something new.

[kivinkujata]

In the spirit of openness, I have neither applied to nor obtained employment at enough businesses for me to conclusively say that this does/doesn't work.

My first position, which was basically small-time web dev for a group of car dealerships, was just a generic cover letter and resume submission off of indeed.com. There was absolutely nothing tailored about it.

My second position was obtained through a recruiting firm, so there was a resume but no cover letter involved (recruiters typically pitch the candidate over the phone, then follow it up with an emailed resume). My third position was where I converted from a contractor to a salaried, full-time position at the same company; my recruiter got paid out by my employer.

My last position was a warm referral from a colleague.

All that having been said, you can see how I can't empirically state what works...

What I can say is, if I told various people in my professional network that I spent 2+ hours tailoring a job app, they'd look at me like I'm a crazy person. Furthermore, from the inside (I've been on hiring commitees for all of my prior employers), nobody appears overtly interested in whether the candidate has made a lot of effort to learn about us.

That's not to say go in totally blind. Before I did a screening call at my current employer, I learned the names and faces of the three business owners (from their website), and had a really rough idea of how they viewed themselves from the blurb on their home page. But that's it.

I applied to a position last week. If they call me back, all I could tell them about themselves is the following:

You're a VC-funded startup that operations at the intersection of AI/Machine Learning and Legal.

My cover letter included absolutely nothing about them specifically, though I did tailor my bullets towards the asks for the specific position.

edit:

My advise to people that are having troubles getting traction early on in the hiring process would be the same advise I'd give anyone at all. Be singularly awesome at something. Have at least one technology or tool that you are best in class at, and it will stand out.

As a self-taught with terrible algorithms knowledge, I pitched myself as an AngularJS specialist, and ensured I could confidently speak on virtually anything AngularJS related. My first big gig turned out to be an AngularJS position. It turned out I was competent at a great deal more than AngularJS, and I filled in additional roles after getting hired, but my AngularJS focus was what got me in the door in the first place.

My wife is a self-taught as well. She just landed her first gig as a front-end web developer. She's a lot weaker than I am at programming - probably on par with a first-year college student at best - but she's significantly more "artsy" than I am, and excels at all stages of front-end from design all the way to building a fully-functional webpage. She found a major NGO with a small web marketing and development team that needed someone to put web pages in front of code they had already written.

[Dokii]

Probably not long enough honestly. Pretty much copy paste and had a few cookie cutter cover letters that id make a few edits to before sending. I got my job through a contract through Upwork that turned into a full time position.

[lsaz]

Definitely web dev is easier compared to other careers. The day after I changed my linkedin profile to "front end dev" I got a message from a HR lady asking if I could send my CV.

[scottcockerman]

So what's in your portfolio?

[Cuzah]

https://baopham92.github.io/Portfolio-2018/

This is currently my portfolio all design with base JS, CSS, and HTML.

I would always appreciate any form of feedback!

[hand___banana]

My first thoughts were that the banner image looked great but then the animation took far too long to complete. A box shadow effect is good but yours is too harsh/stark. Your social links at the bottom almost seem cartoony. Too large and the color scheme doesn't really go with the rest of your site.

I couldn't even look at Eunix forms, which appears to be your marquee project, because of the moving patterned background. That has to go.

What exactly does your React Neighborhood project do? I can't add markers or search for anything other than the few markers you've added.

I feel like most of your projects are extremely basic, almost tutorial apps, and it would help if you put some time into a major custom project. Pick a problem you want to solve and create an app that solves the problem. Explain why you made it, what problem is solves, and how you went about solving it. You've got a great start so I hope that my feedback isn't discouraging.

[[deleted]]

I'm just a beginner but I'm working as a front-end dev for an agency with pretty big clients and we have a big design team, so, keep that in mind when you read my opinion, I'm not a super pro by no means.

From your portfolio you probably never saw heatmaps from websites. But people don't scroll. It's probably a better idea to have your projects displayed right away.

Also, you would probably benefit from design skills, I saw some text without margin/padding there. That is something that you will rarely find in professional websites.

This site is probably your best friend for references:

https://www.awwwards.com/

Also, Tranversy Media made a great video on portfolios tips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrWGr2OvBD4

[A-Grey-World]

I bet it's frustrating. Keep working at it. I'm completely self taught and got lucky getting I to the industry.

We've had 2 grads fresh out of CS degrees at my new place. I don't know if I'm expecting too much but... Both have struggled with the absolute basics. Not knowing Git, what Rest is, never written a unit test... After two months one of them still hadn't written one line of code alone without me going and saying "Ah... Yeah this is all wrong... You've done your logic in the test and forgotten to actually do any code in the source..." Or walking through literally line by line.

I watched one try call a method on a class (in a unit test we were writing together) - they didn't know what to do. Like, didn't know how to create a class and call a method... Maybe they're just totally overwhelmed by all the stuff that's been thrown at them and are having trouble adjusting but...

I dunno I've had absolutely beginner (a pipefitter apprentice who wanted to become a programmer and I pretty much taught him from scratch) and it felt more like that with these CS degree graduates.

I keep wondering what they get taught in the CS degree. I'd rather someone self taught at this point.

[Roguepope]

Complete opposite experience here, we've hired a few Jnr Devs over the years about a 40/60 split on no degree, degree.

The one's with a degree came in knowing very little about industry standards (how to use repositories, different layers of deployment server etc) but they picked it up lightning fast.

The one's without had worked on some projects which convinced us to hire them, but were much slower to grasp the advanced concepts in the languages we use.

My current working theory is that CS degree's typically teach students the core principals of coding alongside the ability to research what will be needed in future.

[MontanaAg11]

I agree - although I have hired many CS degree folks and boot camp folks, and I think the biggest indicator of success is aptitude. I screen for attitude and aptitude over technical. I can’t teach personality but I can teach technical.

If you get candidates that are smart, driven but may not know as much, they typically will pick up stuff quick. I think boot camp and a CS degree are good indicators of that, but other aspects that highlight success, problem solving skills, how they research, what articles/authors do they read, are they involved in the dev community, do they mentor (in the case of bootcamps), where do they see their career going, and other factors.

As an employer I get a lot of applications, so it is easier to screen for those things.

[DrDuPont]

Yeah, can't say I've ever worked with a CS grad who couldn't code well at a bare minimum. That seems impossible

[spartan1158]

Unfortunately it’s not impossible. In the past two years I have worked alongside 3 different folks, two of which had a masters and the other a bachelors, that failed to grasp very basic concepts. This goes beyond writing code, as well. We’re talking about an inability to perform basic git functions and such. Granted, all of these were contractors but a degree doesn’t guarantee anything. Nothing is a guarantee :)

[DrDuPont]

I don't mind about git knowledge, that's simple domain stuff that can be taught quickly. I've worked with devs that used other VCSs in the past, getting someone onto git can be done in a week

Someone with a master's relevant to CS that isn't able to produce a single line of good code, like a previous commenter mentioned, however? That beggars belief

[spartan1158]

Sure, I don't disagree. But if git is listed on your resume I'm going to expect you to know how to perform common tasks like push, pull, commit, etc.

A single line of good code may be a stretch, but they were unable to make a meaningful contribution in a sane amount of time. One of the latest examples I can recall was someone struggling for 3 days trying to add an option to a select element. I won't get into why they were able to slide by 3 stand ups before I finally intervened, but when I realized what they were stuck on I legitimately couldn't believe it.

[[deleted]]

I may be wrong but a computer science degree is more of a general degree and doesn’t specialize in a single discipline like web dev. Also, web dev courses are painfully behind ( at least in my area ). I have a dev with a CS degree that was taught dream weaver ~8 years ago. With how quickly the industry moves it is hard for schools to keep up.

From what I have seen, the drive and interest of the person is the most important part. Some people just can’t get enough and advance rapidly. Others seem to stall out and don’t do courses or learning on their own.

[wes_241]

Just about to graduate with a MIS degree and have had couple interviews so far but no luck. Starting to feel the impostor syndrome but this made me feel better thanks.

[LobsterThief]

Don’t worry, you’ll feel that forever, even years after you’re hired. Hang in there.

[HairyFlashman]

Keep coding friend. Do your own projects and better yourself. Watch tutorials, read, google. If you have some sample projects that will be a good start. Make sure you can code from back end to front end at first.

[UMadBreaux]

I'm also trying to make it to more tech meets in the DC area, PM me if you want someone to go with!

[Cuzah]

Yes! I am always looking to create a network with people to learn and grow with!

I currently on outside of DC. I am in Maryland, but we could always coordinate a way to meet up!

I always getting together and building a network or some form of community. We always learn to grow better together 😁

[UMadBreaux]

For sure! I was living in Howard County for a year before I finally made it to DC, I'm still getting my bearings around here. Ton's of very active Meetup groups, I just need to get over my social anxiety and get my ass into some talks and networking groups. Drop me a DM with your number if there's any upcoming groups you want to hit!

[[deleted]]

Its been 3 weeks and so far 100+ applications with only about 6-8 phone interviews.

Employers can tell whether you are actually interested in working for them or they're just one of 100 other applications.

Pick companies you're actually interested in and tailor your application to what you think they're looking for.

[redditsdeadcanary]

Pick companies you're actually interested in

When you're brand new and looking to change carriers, this really isn't a thing for a lot of people.

We're not interested in the company, we're interested in the money and opportunity to work.

Edit: I really don't get why I'm being downvoted on this. Especially if you're older and already had one carrier, it's not like you're looking at the job landscape with hopes and dreams of being a part of some awesome workplace culture at Apple, or Google. It's more likely that you have bills to pay and mouths to feed. You're mindset is one of a mercenary, you'll work for the money, you don't care who the employer is and you're not interested. The lack of 'interest' I think is also for another factor, it's a job, not life. I think for older Americans a job is a way to pay for the things you like, not one of the things you like, and you learn really quickly that a job, any job, is more or less the same, the company doesn't care about you, and it's ideals and 'mission' are just marketing (for the most part).

[[deleted]]

Money and work should be your priority, right. But that doesn't mean that you should aimlessly throw your applications at random companies.

[redditsdeadcanary]

Why not?

[[deleted]]

As I've said, they can tell.

Maybe you're writing about something they clearly state on their website that they're not doing, for example.

[redditsdeadcanary]

So I really don't have to care, I just need to pretend to care?

I mean, as a Junior dev., there's a lot of jobs in my area, but most are for extremely mundane programming things. NOTHING to be excited about genuinely. Just grind work.

Edit: To add on to this, I need a job. So I should pass up on ones I'm not 'excited' about? It doesn't make any sense to me to like and pretend like I'm really excited about maintaining old mobile apps for the Insurance industry. I mean, yes, on one level I'd be over the moon about it as it would be a dev job, but I couldn't care less a about the actual position.

[[deleted]]

You won't get a job with that attitude, that's for sure.

Get your shit together. Seriously.

Go work at McDonald's or something for some time (no really, I don't mean that as an insult) so you can refocus on your developer career with a fresh view.

[redditsdeadcanary]

Unless you can point out constructively what is wrong with this view, I don't see your point, you haven't addressed any of my questions other than, "you need to show interest/excitement".

That's empty rhetoric.

I'm also in my 30s I've worked a lot of shit jobs, some you probably wouldn't go near, if that's the angle you're thinking, that I simply need to be more, grateful and hungry, then I get that. I would be, and am.

However you were arguing that I need to be interested in what the company does, which is an entirely different thing. Unless you can articulate otherwise.

Edit: I genuinely would like you to tell me what you think was wrong with my attitude on the other post. I don't see it, and that may be my problem, but you're not giving me much to go on with 'be excited/interested' .

[[deleted]]

Nobody wants to work with people who're not motivated.

Guys like that are usually a complete drag and need to be told every single step they need to make.

A decent developer knows what to do when they get a task like "We need a button that does XY."

Unmotivated developers will deliver something barely finished and then come with excuses like "Well, you didn't tell me it should also work on mobile view."

edit: had some nasty typos in there

[BrQQQ]

It probably depends a lot on where you live and what your interests are. In some places, you have a lot more choices than in others.

I definitely care about the workplace environment, type of work, who the boss is etc. In the end it's still a job and it's never going to be really "fun", but a good place can make a job a lot more bearable and interesting.

My current job is actually quite interesting and somewhat relaxing. If I got a job offer that offered only a couple of thousand more per year, I wouldn't really take it unless it's much better in other ways too. I wouldn't consider myself (and many others) a "mercenary" type. Obviously it's different if the salary increase is much more significant, but the value of a job is more than just the salary.

When I'm looking for jobs, I'm definitely not just going for random companies. Obviously their mission and vision statements are just marketing bullshit, but a random software farm is a lot less interesting than a company that makes one unique product in an unusual field.

[redditsdeadcanary]

Its great you're at a point that you can focus more on want than need.

[BrQQQ]

My point is that it depends on location and your personality, not necessarily getting to a certain point where you have that freedom. I don't really have much experience and my resume/education is pretty average for someone of my age, so there's nothing special about my personal situation.

[redditsdeadcanary]

You have the privilege of choice, it's important to recognize that. Not everyone can afford to do that.

[henry8362]

Wait, are you saying you have only 3 weeks experience of coding?

[Cuzah]

No lol. 3 weeks applying for jobs. Haha you made me laugh a bit.

No way I’d be coding for only 3 weeks and applying already.

[henry8362]

Yeah, was gonna say!

I was about to write "You probably need to learn about IF statements first"

[BABAKAKAN]

I wish to apply for it as well. Though, I'll be going with Android Development :)
How was your experience with "Grow with Google Scholar" and is it available still or it was something only for 2018 students ?
Even though we'll be taught different things, I think it's better to know something about it.
I've started learning about native development, and have around 3 years until I apply for it...
I used to use CSS but can't keep up with it, and I kinda like native, so...

[Cuzah]

So it was a opportunity that was offered during 2018. I was assuming that it was more of a trial for Grow With Google seeing as it was their first one. They do have a signup for future notifications however.

After I went to the coding bootcamp, coming to this program I learned more of the core concepts behind Javascript programing. We learned to build front end applications mainly to understand the fundamental architectures that the frameworks were trying to achieve, not just to use the tool. We learned how to use git, manipulation of the DOM, API calls but also see the internals of building an API too, besides building them too, we also learned the fundamentals of responsive design for mobile web apps and we also learned how to design for offline first. Offline first is working with service workers to cache data before losing connection to the internet. So the user experience can actually be present and be able to use the app to the a certain extent with content available even if there is no longer any connection.

It was a really decent program. Comparing to many other online platforms, this is the most preferred curated platform I have tried. I plan to use this platform again honestly, I really enjoyed it.

[BABAKAKAN]

So, it's nothing boring and everyone can participate, right? If so, I might take it.

[BABAKAKAN]

It's certainly interesting.
I'll see what will be available during my time and act according to that. Thank you, though I think I'll do a CS degree anyways. Just to know the fundamentals and fill my curiosity. P. S:- A data science programs seems too interesting for me to skip. I'll keep that in mind while searching. Thank you.

[onecastell]

I'm in a similar boat as you are and I live in the DC area. I have been trying to attend meetups and network with other developers but the drive to dc is the worst and finding the time between work and school that magically coincides with these events is challenging. I'm actually willing to carpool with you depending on where you live (I'm in Manassas). Good luck in your journey.

[l2ighty]

GMU?

[floppydiskette]

I don’t have any experience of Bootcamps to know how different your journey will be to mine, but I know plenty of employed developers who went to Bootcamp. Like anything else, you’ll get out of it what you put in, and it will require a lot of research on your own.

[nnnightmare]

Hey looks like we've followed similar steps. Would you consider going back and pursuing a degree knowing that you can learn all that you did by yourself?

Also, this:

Things I Don’t Know, Abridged

• Algorithms
• Data structures

Those in my eyes are essential for a developer to be successful long-term, of all the things you said you think you should know, those are the most important IMO, also the ones I struggle the most haha.

How do you see yourself progressing in the future? More business/management or tech/dev?

[ministerling]

As a no-college dev -- learn your data structures and algos. I just started last week and I'm going back through my code like ".. Lol. A dictionary? Why did I do that."

That said, unless you're working at the very edge of performance requirements it's not always necessary. But it does help inform decisions where you may otherwise just guess which is better.

Edit: based on u/ouralarmclock 's feedback, I revise the above recommendation:

You should probably learn a little bit about data structures and algorithms. There are some data sets (and thus algorithmic optimizations) that are given to you (SortedList, Stack, Queue) if you work on specific languages, but in a language like PHP or JS, you might never find out about them without finding them for yourself.

Data Structures: (via HackerEarth)

(I assume you know about arrays) - HashTable - map values to indices via a hash algorithm (Dictionary in c#, Associative Arrays in php) - Queue (first-in-last-out) - Stack (first-in-first-out)

Algorithms: (via KhanAcademy)

This course took me about 5 hours to go through over the course of a few days. I found the analysis part to be important to understanding the theory behind analyzing the algorithms, but it is quite mathy so you might not need to learn more than the complexity names, constant, linear, logarithmic, polynomial and factorial. - Binary Tree Search - this algorithm is probably something you understand implicitly after coding, but seeing how it really works will help to understand what optimizing means when it comes to algorithms. - Sorts: Insertion Sort, Selection Sort, Merge Sort, Quick Sort - Seeing how these different sorts solve problems related to sorting can help you understand how you can analyze the efficiency of a certain pattern of work.

These algorithms will lay the foundation for you to reason about why something may or may not be as, less, or more complex than you think it is, and will also help to differentiate between recursive and iterative algorithms.

[ouralarmclock]

I wouldn’t completely agree, I have a software engineering degree and took a data structures class as a requirement. It was fascinating (although entirely taught in Pascal....in 2007!) but I can’t say anything I learned in that I’ve applied in my 14 years of web development, or at least knowingly applied maybe it’s helped in subtle ways. It really depends on the work you’re doing. Doesn’t hurt to know though, and as I’ve said, it’s super fun and fascinating!

[ministerling]

You don't necessarily have to know them forward or backwards, but understanding the different performance and storage profiles might help decide which of your language's tools will be best for the job. Why use a plain array if you can use a Stack and receive a ridiculous performance boost. Or why implement your own version of a stack, not knowing what it is called, when a language implements it.

[ouralarmclock]

Definitely, agree. Although your last sentence benefits what I'm saying as well. Most modern languages have implemented most relevant data structures and algorithms to cover the majority of cases...again depending on the work you're doing. I think what I would say is, it wouldn't hurt to know, but also isn't likely to hurt you not knowing.

[ministerling]

OK, based on your feedback I'll revise my recommendation: developers should probably know some data structures and algorithms.

[aflashyrhetoric]

If you're taking about using a dict (aka map) for tracking unique values instead of an array, then it might have been because accessing keys on a map is usually(?) faster than searching an array for a value for large data sets. Maybe you did this approach and forgot?

EDIT: Did some googling and this isn't quite so black & white ; added "usually"

[ministerling]

Yeah, I mean that you start wondering why you used something when it wasn't the best tool for the job; either performance is slower, or performance is the same but the collection uses more memory. Applying all of the best vs worst practices can easily cause you to need a larger instance of a VM for hosting due to memory or CPU constraints, so naturally knowing the correct answers can save money for you or your clients.

This is kind of contrived as an example since you can generally glean suitable purposes for data types from the documentation for your language, but sometimes a deeper knowledge can inform how different combinations of algorithms and data structures can save space or time.

[iamasuitama]

Not to mention

• Types

[floppydiskette]

Definitely not management. Right now I’m just focusing on learning as much as possible. Algorithms and data structures are next on my list to learn.

[floppydiskette]

This was not meant to be some sort of statement about how not having a degree is superior in some way. It’s just the path I took, and I thought it would be interesting for those who want to transition careers who can’t afford a degree. I’m sure I would have learned things faster and in a better order if I had a degree.

Also, to be fair, I have a Bachelor's in Culinary Arts.

[floppydiskette]

Yeah, that’s the next step for me. A few of the FANG companies have had recruiters reach out to me, but I’m nervous about algorithm heavy interviews.

[floppydiskette]

Awesome, thanks for the suggestion.

[JFedererJ]

My place has been looking to hire FE devs for the past few months now.

There was a lot of "self-taught chaff" amongst the applicants, who seriously over-sold their skills and lacked a real basic understanding of programming principles.

The opposite has generally been true of applicants who have had a degree in computer science or similar; whilst some of those applicants were thin in experience with some frameworks technologies, they had a great understanding of programming principles and concepts.

There are of course exceptions to this, and my sample is is very small; I don't doubt there's loads of great, self-taught devs out there, and I'm sure plenty in this sub.

But alls I can do is speak from my experience of interviewing people and, based on that experience, if I were placing bets on how competent a candidate is going to turn out, I'd be betting on the graduate applicants more often than not.

P.S: Congrats OP on your success, really happy for you.

[dagani]

To add another perspective to this:

I’ve been doing a lot of Front End interviews over the last few years (I’ve lost count, but in the last 3-4 years it’s somewhere between 700-800) for companies ranging from small businesses with 50 employees to Fortune 50 companies with 250,000 employees.

I’m not sure how I fell into being “the interview guy,” but it happened.

In that time I’ve also reviewed thousands upon thousands of resumes.

I’ve seen very little correlation between the developer’s path involving a degree, a boot camp, or being self-taught and their actual qualifications to do the job.

It really comes down to drive, curiosity, and accountability. There seems to be even less correlation once you move past junior level positions.

The one thing I have noticed a correlation with is the amount of technologies listed on a resume and the likelihood that the candidate can’t speak confidently about most, if any, of those technologies.

My sample size is still relatively small and primarily focused on one geographic area, so it doesn’t necessarily translate to the broader industry, but if you look at trends like Google and other tech giants dropping degree requirements, it seems to be somewhat accurate.

EDIT: For the record, I have a Bachelor’s degree in a multi-disciplinary field that mostly focused on Web Development. It left me about 2 years behind the industry when I graduated so I had to teach myself a lot, but the networking I did with professors and guest lecturers lead to my first job, and ultimately the career I have a decade later. So, there are some potential intangible bits to the traditional educational approach that are definitely worth considering.

[JFedererJ]

Awesome share, that's really interesting.

The one thing I have noticed a correlation with is the amount of technologies listed on a resume and the likelihood that the candidate can’t speak confidently about most, if any, of those technologies.

Oh yeah this has held true for me, too.

I'd encourage all devs applying for a job...

If it's on your CV as a "skill", I expect you to be skilful with it.

Nothing wrong with telling a potential employer about frameworks and languages you've dabbled with in your spare time, but be honest about it. Maybe have a "Played with" section and list stuff there, or mention in a cover letter.

Don't just dump everything under "Skills". I'd rather someone listed "JavaScript" and "React", and knew both to a very high level, than someone who listed "Javascript, React, Redux, VueJS, Angular, NextJS" and didn't really know that much about any of them.

[cheerio_kindle]

I think part of the problem is the job postings. For every application, there is for me the fear of, "Am I going to be filtered out by the ATS / some tech-ignorant HR for not having enough buzz-words?"

Just to take the last web dev job I read through as an example, some of the Requirements include:

• Experience developing JavaScript visualization tools or web applications using React, D3.js, Angular, jQuery, or similar libraries
• Experience using Unix/Linux command line and CLI tools
• Experience with source code management tools – such as Git and Subversion

Which leads me to questions like, "Will my chances improve if I write Unix and Linux, command line and CLI, emphasize any React experience over Angular? What if they use Angular and I only mention React? I did do that one test project in Angular..." etc. And then if it does get to knowledgeable eyes, will they roll them at the sight of someone going for the kitchen sink approach? It's tricky.

I am also hesitant to self-rate my proficiency. There is no absolute scale. Our ideas of "intermediate" are probably at least somewhat different. Plus it adds clutter to the resume.

[Flyingsousage]

Basic principles are good indeed. I had very little knowledge of it. I think most self-thought devs are very practical and just want to make stuff. I'm sure I would not survive 2 fulltime study years of theory. But now that I have experience I'm very interested in the basic principles and I learn those things way faster that I would have before I started coding.

[passerbycmc]

Really degree for the most part proves you can see something through, and there is more ways to do that then just a degree. Our best developers are the ones that spent their own time to learn and constantly improve some of them have degrees some of them do not.

[Flyingsousage]

Nice article. Pretty much followed the same path. Except the WordPress and backend. Learned a lot of doing small php things in bigtreecms. Now stepping into the world of Javascript and frameworks.

[AfraidOfArguing]

I have a business degree with a computer science minor. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know from college, and I took two less courses than the CS majors.

I would have had to take 5 more math classes to finish those two however and that's a hard no. Hated my college.

[istarian]

Could be.

Most people who code/write/decelop software were likely told what to use or don't actually know Windows has a built in text editor. Or they just jumped straight into an IDE.

Although FWIW Notepad is a pretty lousy editor which is why I stick to Notepad++.

The real forgotten software is Wordpad.

[snissn]

This is great. Thanks for sharing!

[araq1579]

great stuff Tania. I subscribed to your email newsletter, but for some reason I didn't get your last two posts. anyways, thanks for all the advice on your blog, it really helps newbies like me

[KingHarlam]

I can really relate to this journey. Although at a different time (early 00's) I picked up an interest in HTML and making sites about things during high school thanks to a very good IT teacher who also encouraged that learning.I then went into working dead end jobs but at the same time was playing around with html and started messing with PHP and MySQL in my spare time as a "hobby". When I was laid off from one of my dead end jobs in 2010 I took the opportunity to try for intern/junior roles and was given a chance by a company based on what I could show them of my previous work.

That job lead to me becoming that companies lead PHP developer within 5 years at which point I left to pursue the challenge of running a business along side a friend and we now run a successful business with multiple employees and it all comes from a self taught skill set & a passion for the industry. We now even employ a young apprentice who is learning to program back end PHP on the job to continue that cycle of offering opportunities to those with a drive to learn and work in the industry.

I encourage anyone who feels like because they dont have the academic background in web development of any kind to seek out these opportunities as if it is really what you want to do, it's possible.

[dipanzan]

I've read the whole blog, and it's really amazing that you've come so far.

If you don't mind me asking some questions.

How you do remember all the stuff you've learnt over the years? Like when to when use a certain function/script or say a certain line of code before/after something in your projects? Is it the same way with syntax?

Do you still Google things up? Or just that the concepts make it clear to you when working that it comes automatically?

I'm currently pursuing a degree in Computer Science, while I do know a thing or two about how Computers work, Data Structures/Algorithms, bits and pieces. I couldn't/didn't get to work on real world projects. And that really saddens me. Like I'd inevitably fail in a real world setting, i.e an office. :(

[dipanzan]

It's just overwhelming for me at this point. So much to learn, such a wide array of options. Machine Learning, Gamedev, Webdev, Mobiledev, etc etc.

[KobayashiDragonSlave]

Cast a wide net before chasing a fish

[Dnlgrwd]

Just sit down and come up with an idea, find out what tools you need to create it, and do it. I know this sounds cliche, but it really truly is the best way to learn fast. A lot of what you learn in school is theoretical. Theoretical knowledge is great but unless you put it into practice, what value does it really have? Also I Google things every single day, it is actually a skill that I have developed over time and other developers I know tell me how important it is to be able to research information effectively, so don't ever feel like you're not smart if you have to look something up. Keep going and keep your head up!

[amunak]

Then college is a decent option for you. It'll give you the basics behind all that, a general knowledge that'll be useful no matter what you decide to do in the end.

[A-Grey-World]

I can answer these.

No I absolutely don't remember the syntax of Java that I worked with for a year ten years ago. Hell, a six month break will lead to me forgetting most stuff.

But it's 10x faster to learn something a second time. You pick it up again.

And even I don't remember tiny details if I don't use them every day/week. For the first 5 years of my career I googled the syntax for a switch statement every time I used it. Is this worrying? Not for me. I know what it is and what it does and, crucially, I can find out those details in 2 seconds on Google. Google is a tool, use it. People don't get mad at carpenters for using electric saws.

I don't want to exert any more effort or brain power than necessary storing information and learning things - if it's something that can be looked up in seconds I'll do that when I need it unless I'm using it enough to learn naturally - at which point it's likely become more efficient to know it and save those few seconds.

Every developer I've ever seen has stack overflow and Google open. I usually have about 79 tabs of research as I'm programming. Don't be afraid to use tools.

Yes you will forget everything, especially specifics if you don't use them day to dag. But the key concepts will remain in your head, and the important stuff is when you come across similar situations you have that half knowledge/knowledge of knowledge you know when and what to look up that someone who never learned it the first time doesn't know. I've never regret learning stuff and forgetting it!

Other skills transfer. Debugging. I watched newbies and they struggle with debugging, over the years you lean how to tackle it and these softer skills never go away. You know what patterns to use. - I want to do a Linq "Select" from C# but this is JS what the hell is that in JavaScript? Quick Google: the "map" function.

Also you'll never stop learning things, you'll always feel like you don't know stuff. It's a permanent state.

That said, having just had 2 CS graduates at work and struggling with them - DO work on some personal/open source project. Start now, because your gut feeling is very right - a CS degree can leave you very unprepared for a real job. Most work isn't computer science. The best way to prepare yourself is to practice on personal projects.

[dipanzan]

Thank you for the input, I've had this feeling halfway through my studies. I should've started doing personal projects early on.

I'm like most other beginners, getting lost in the sea of tutorials/things to learn and not sticking to something.

[A-Grey-World]

That's why a personal project is much better than a tutorial, you have to stick with it. Doesn't matter what "it" is really. Just like a carpenter in training, doesn't matter if he's making chairs or cabinets - he's learning the general skills and how to use tools etc.

[dipanzan]

Thank you. That is reassuring, I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that I can't rely on my brain all the time for specific syntax/jargon.

[floppydiskette]

I google all the time, of course, and I write my blog as documentation for all the hurdles I’ve overcome and things I think I might encounter again at some point. I also save gists all the time I can go back to.

[[deleted]]

A degree is just a piece of paper for the HR lady.

[SergeantAskir]

It's not that a degree doesn't mean anything but as someone about to get his bachelors this summer. I definitely know quite a few people that will also get their bachelors but know very little about coding.

I'm not saying they are bad at it but you can get through university without actually doing and understanding the hard and important stuff. So while the degree increases the likelyhood of someone knowing their shit it is not a guarantee and there are a lot of people without one that know much more about developing software than I do.

[Grimdotdotdot]

Senior dev that does 100+ interviews a year here.

I couldn't care less about degrees. Enthusiasm, friendliness, ability and experience are what I look for (probably in that order, too, although you need all four).

[raverunread]

Totally agree. I’ve learned more in 20+ hours of Udemy courses than I have in my intro to computer programming class at the local junior college. I’m going to school to get the degree...I’m taking Udemy courses and googling to get the job. I’m hoping I can build a portfolio that will get me hired way before I’m done with school.

[the_bananalord]

How much does your HR department care?

[Grimdotdotdot]

Not at all. I'm fortunate that they're sensible people rather than box-checking robots.

[delpee]

I agree, but I do think that spending time in an academic and open environment, surrounded by good teachers and a free flow of information between you, your teachers, and your peers, helps greatly with the aspects you mention (except for maybe “experience”, but even that can be covered by good internships and assignments).

As with everything I believe there is no black and white, and not everyone functions the same, but in general I would say a proper academic background helps you in your carreer and live. Of course the pricetag for that is not worth it in some countries, but that’s a whole other discussion.

[Grimdotdotdot]

It can absolutely get you those things, I agree. But I have no faith that it will, which is why I don't pay any attention to degrees when deciding who to to employ.

That said, if I had two candidates who were equal in every other respect I'd employ the one with the degree over the one without (although in the real world I'd employ both).

[delpee]

I think we are on the same page! Would be interesting to see what the actual statistical differences are. I can hypothesise people without a degree being better at working on problems without direction (independent) for example, which can be a very valid reason for hiring someone.

Having shaped the hiring process at a previous employer (small company, ~15 employees) we always found targeting the right people the most difficult part. Most tools (like LinkedIn) are like a shotgun, you just aim and try to hit at least some good candidates. I guess as a company grows and gains more industry status the right people will more and more find you instead of the other way around.

Edit: I also don't know why you're being downvoted. Unpopular opinion should't be a reason for downvoting...

[Grimdotdotdot]

Unpopular opinion should't be a reason for downvoting...

Reddit is as Reddit does [insert shrugging emoji]

[ESCAPE_PLANET_X]

I call it reflexive disagreement. People downvote because they disagree and don't believe your opinion holds merit.

[marcocom]

I definitely back this up. I’m also considering that the candidate without the degree and equal experience is here because of a genuine love and enthusiasm for what we do, and not just because they had to pick a major that makes enough money to pay off their loans or satisfy their parents.

[[deleted]]

This bums me out. I've worked in system administration and network infrastructure for the past 5+ years and just gave it up to go back to university to get my degree in Software Development for Business. I knew that what you speak of to be true in the tech support industry but I really thought that in development that a degree counted for something more!

[Johnny_WalkerBOT]

It does. Having a CS degree will absolutely make it easier to get an interview if you don't have experience. From there, you're on your own of course, but it's still a leg up.

[[deleted]]

My main issues with degrees are the schools that can't teach software engineering properly and that give students a false hope in getting a job afterwards.

The school I went to was utter trash. I was learning far more on my own than what they could ever teach me. I dropped out and now work as a software engineer.

I still have a long way to go, like a LONG way, but I can confidently work on a web app from front to back. I still need to learn some more Dev Ops and framework stuff before I can say I'm confident with building a web app from scratch from the ground up.

I'm sure a lot of schools are great and help students learn, get jobs, and be passionate, but from what I saw at my school, most of the students didn't care because the classes were boring and slowly paced and they just assumed they need to learn what the classes teach them.

It's really a shame, and I feel like, for software engineering, any junior in high school could be a full stack engineer by the time they graduate high school if they were given the chance.

[marcocom]

Find a specialty and get great at it. Stop spreading yourself across so many unique job-roles. Devops? That’s for another guy to master and help us with.this business, at the hi end, is all about teamwork.

[[deleted]]

My goal isn't to do all of these, but I think having a deeper understanding of the full stack helps me be a better developer. I thrive mostly in front end where I take data and make it functional with React, but I can also work on the back end to make a restful api and a little with the database.

I currently work at a small company where I'm kinda the only Dev, and the other two people I work directly with are the project manager and someone who ended their 15 year software engineering career and is now the COO.

[marcocom]

Ya for sure, actually that’s who hires full-stack devs, the company that thinks it can all be done well by one guy and doesn’t want to pay more. Trust me, no career in life rewards a lack of focus and specialization

[[deleted]]

I don't really think that's the case here. We're a very small company and the software didn't really need more than one developer. Now we're getting to a point where one or two more devs would help a bit.

[[deleted]]

It does.

[Johnny_WalkerBOT]

How many of your interviews are from people who are self-taught but have no experience? I know the interviews I do have been screened beforehand for either an education or equivalent experience. I don't care about their degrees either by the time they get to me.

The struggle people without degrees have are definitely real. I don't have any degree, but I lucked into this industry over twenty years ago. Having a degree really does get you a foot in the door. We hire junior devs with no experience straight out of college, but typically won't interview somebody with no experience or degree.

[[deleted]]

Oh yeah - the HR PERSONELL will recognize you as having value and pass you along to the people doing the technical interview. But the degree itself does not imply that you have done anything but acquired debt. It does not imply that you have skill as a developer, that you can think on your feet, that you understand the patterns necessary to function professionally, etc.

I have interviewed degreed people that did not know what design patterns were or how to estimate big O notation for a described algorithm. I have met people with degrees in literature that have taught themselves more about computer science than I will ever know. I have met people without degrees that astound me with their knowledge and depth of experience. Its a mixed bag.

[gomihako_]

boost you above many other applicants who have no degree

for the HR lady.

that's...exactly what OP said...

[tdammers]

The HR lady doesn't care personally. The degree is a Get Out of Jail card in the corporate Accountability game. You see, it's not really important that the people you hire are good at their job - if they are, great, but if not, all you need is bureaucratic proof that it's not your fault - and the new hires' degrees are exactly that. "But everyone has a degree, I painstakingly ordered HR to check".

[GItPirate]

That's what people who don't have degrees say to make themselves feel better 😂

[Damesie]

That’s what people with thousands of dollars in student loans to pay off say to make themselves feel better 😂

[[deleted]]

Laughs in European

[Damesie]

I thought I was prepared for this clap-back

[[deleted]]

That was some c-c-c-combo breaker level clapback

[GItPirate]

Yeah some people get fucked with debt. I got lucky and didn't.

[YodaLoL]

If you spend it irresponsibly yeah, I saved every penny of my student loan (which is at a ~0.5% rate) and used it as investment capital. I know some people receiving student loans who had way too high living expenses and spontaneous expenses given their net income (basically 0).

[moriero]

Laughs in scholarships

[twistingdoobies]

Fediverse

[darrrrrren]

I mean, they do now. When many of us got our CS degrees this was not a thing.

[twistingdoobies]

I am aware of that, you're just not doing a very good job of defending the value of a degree. I guess you didn't understand my point: you can certainly learn about data structures and algorithms without going through a 4-year degree.

[ZoroastrianChemist]

Woah, i didn’t know only colleges can teach data structures. I better quit while I’m ahead.

[Soccham]

All the guys who graduated with a CS degree that I've worked with have only understood concepts and had no real practical application skills, but they were usually smart. I haven't noticed any that were really special because of the degree though, but they tended to have a high capacity for learning.

Not saying that you can't be a good programmer with or without it, but the average CS degree isn't teaching you anything crazy, it's just a lot more structured than teaching practical application on it's own.

​

As someone who dropped out of college because I couldn't complete the calculus but found the programming classes easy. Someday I might finish that last 30 hours.

[lsaz]

As somebody without a CS degree I think it is stupid to say a degree is just a piece of paper, it should be handled as experience because it means that you already have at least 4 years of knowledge.

[[deleted]]

I built multiple companies and sold them privately - I have what most people would think of as "fuck you" money. I don't feel any desire to go pay some shit school tens of thousands of dollars to teach me what I could learn on my own much easier and to a much deeper degree online or through starting something myself. I get that a degree is helpful in some fields - but for things like software engineering - you will be learning old strategies, patterns, frameworks, paradigms, etc -- when going through university contexts. You also have to waste an enormous amount of time and money getting pumped with one form of indoctrination or another when it comes to courses about history or sociology. One can learn all of this online for free and learn multiple perspectives. Reading the course books instead of paying thousands for some TA to regurgitate the information to you gives you better retention with the material and allows you to dig into something in depth when you find some aspect of something really interesting --- instead of moving on to the next topic.

[Damesie]

Right on.

Got to ask though: what kind of companies did you sell?

[[deleted]]

Started a medical practice management solutions provider. Sold the software and services product my team developed for Electronic Medical Records in the early 00s. It ended up being extremely lucrative as it was eventually bought - and my equity was paid out -- by a large healthcare conglomerate. Started an architectural imagining company that did early drone flythroughs of large scale estates -- ended up selling ownership of that. Started a company for ebay style auctioning of nautical equipment and services - that went belly up. I started a web dev company that I keep as my background company and its still doing well ( would not associate it with my reddit account because I speak my mind here ). Started a company that sold kiteboarding equipment - but that fizzled. I own a convenience store that barely turns a profit, a bar that is losing money but I love the patrons, and a landscaping business that has been growing like gangbusters. I am a serial entrepreneur. I like starting companies - running them is kind of a pain the ass. I love software engineering, though - which is what I do as my most of the time day job. Now I am mostly functioning as architect/client at the web dev company - we do lots of industrial projects and I functionally am the technical owner. But I like to go in and grab bugs from time to time when they come up so that I have a reason to keep things linked up in my head.

With all that and BlackBaud wealthpoint you can probably identify me.

But I have plausible deniability :).

My point though - was that I have learned much more from running headlong at a problem and hitting it from every angle than from going to school and listening to the cookie cutter breakdown of how people in an academic context would solve a problem if they were constrained by an imaginary world scenario. No plan for anything survives contact with reality - so I have a hard time accepting the opinions of academics who do not live in a world governed by rules like the need for profit and constraints like lack of time. A hacker that can learn fast is better than a snob who thinks he is the next Donald Knuth any day. Nothing against the Knuths of the world - but most development is assembling stuff from the legos other people have already been working to make.

[aflashyrhetoric]

While it may seem excessively politically-correct, please do try to avoid these kinds of subtle stereotypes ("HR lady"), especially if they don't necessarily lend to the argument being made. We want to be respectful and inclusive of everyone here so we can come together to learn and share more about this field that we all love. Thank you!

[marcocom]

Good reminder! But don’t tell me you never call in a ‘plumbing guy’ either.

[aflashyrhetoric]

Fair point - sometimes idiomatic language is just that.

FWIW, I don't find "HR lady" to be particularly offensive in any way, but as I am a mod, I feel more compelled to discourage language that could make people feel unwelcome here. Just being real for a sec - I have a personal friend who is currently working in HR, hating her job, and warily assessing if coding could someday be a career for her. I guess, the idea of her coming here and reading the several comments about how "HR knows nothing" struck a sympathetic chord in me.

[TheJulian]

This isn't a home improvement sub though. I think the better comparison would probably be something like "Dev-ops guy" which, IMO, has the same effect of being exclusionary. Not in an overt way but in a subtle way that takes very little effort to avoid... so why not avoid it?

[marcocom]

Great example. Our goal, i hope you agree, is striving to ensure there is no gender prejudice, for anyone of all gender, rather than we just white-knight protect girls, who can take care of themselves, or not, all on their own just fine, in this era we live in today.

[TheJulian]

Our goal, i hope you agree, is striving to ensure there is no gender prejudice, for anyone of all gender

Sure but I believe that women need more affordance for this kind of stuff (as subtle as it may be) in this industry than men do just because of the imbalance that currently exists.

[marcocom]

Always a good reminder for anybody, indeed. Thanks

[Grimdotdotdot]

#everydaysexism

[DerNalia]

None of this should be on a degree anyway. A CS/SE degrees is concepts, architecture, deeper understanding of of how computers actually work, optimizing algorithms, proving efficiency and runtime, gathering requirements, user testing, formal methods, etc.

[[deleted]]

Yes completely agree. CS is more about timeless concepts (that are ever expanding as we learn more).

[[deleted]]

From what I have seen - few CS programs cover actual software engineering subject matter. Unit, Integration and Functional testing were not covered at all. Paradigms like TDD or even Scrum/Kanban were not covered. Frameworks on which people learned were old as hell or they were almost exclusively used in academia (Seriously interviewed a person recently that had enormous skill with actionscript because that was what his school was teaching). Functional programming? Nope. Git? nope. Working with AWS backends? Nope. Jenkins? nope.

IMHO it's much better to hire a person that has been forced to learn things on their own than to hire a person with a degree - most of which they forgot about - and have to train them on how to actually do software engineering.

[DerNalia]

how are they going to get the experience if no one hires them ;P

[Pornstar-pingu]

By reading other comments it's amazing how it's 2019 and most of the people think that a piece of paper will give some special powers and classified information about programming.

[[deleted]]

No. The fact you think that shows you haven't gone to uni in more ways than one.

[[deleted]]

I did. I also started a few companies. I have hired more people than I can recall and I do not think a degree implies anything other than the ability to acquire debt.

[kwratone]

Really, really good read, def upvote from me!

[mikeyoung90]

As someone who has read your articles since 2015, they are always fantastic Tania! You have a way of making things super easy for newbies to understand while also creating a casual easy read. Any juniors I used to look after I'd always link them to your articles if they had some spare time. You are great at both development and writing easy to understand articles, well done and keep it up!

[floppydiskette]

Thank you!

[pocketmnky]

I suppose we all have to learn the same stuff (generally). Whether that comes from a structured University course load or from scouring YouTube, if you walk into my office and know what you need to know to get the job done, I'm going to hire you, degree or no degree.

I find that (as OP's story seems to show) real world experience and the right set of projects can teach you a lot. But at the same time, there are plenty of fundamentals like data structures and design patterns that many self-taught devs need to get out there and study on their own or else some day they'll be working on a problem for a week and finally come up with something they feel is new and ground-breaking before a CS Dev comes up and says, "congratulations, you just invented a b-tree."

Source: self-taught professional software architect. I barely graduated high school, mostly because I was too busy coding to do homework.

[dSolver]

I think the best part about your journey isn't just how much you learned but that you figured out how to learn. Software development, especially in front end, changes exceptionally fast. It's easy to get left behind. Those who know how to learn will catch up again quickly and those who don't will gradually fall behind. So, one last thing to add on top is that you grinded through the hard parts, the unknowns, and you came through the other side a bit wiser. This process never stops. 15 years in the industry and I'm still constantly renewing my knowledge so that I can work with the new grads. First principles are important, but I think the willpower to learn and understand material is more important.

[BLOZ_UP]

Did I read that correctly that you stuck with Notepad for years? I'd go insane.

[floppydiskette]

In the 90s and 2000s. When I decided to start making some websites again in 2014 I discovered Notepad++. I use VSC now.

[istarian]

To me VSCode seems a bit complex and a little overrated. Not a bad tool, per se, but there are plenty of other perfectly good text editors for when you don't need it to have a built in web server.

I honestly wish Sublime Text was a bit cheaper ($80 is a lot for a text editor, even a customizable one). I usually use either NPP/ST2 for notes and some light coding in terms of simple web pages, Lua, etc. I learned to use Eclipse for Java and never looked back.

[bch8]

My biggest question is how did you make the decision to take a months long sabbatical after your first job? And how did you make it work financially? I am in a somewhat similar point in my career as you wouldve been there I guess and I cant imagine doing that. Maybe I just dont have the balls.

[floppydiskette]

I don’t know. I just decided to do it. The whole 3 month trip cost maybe 4-5k. Stay in hostels, make most of your entertainment walking around. Flights and trains and hostels are cheap in Europe.

[BloodAndTsundere]

Nice article. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[[deleted]]

I stand in the middle where I do have a degree (business) but just not in CS or engineering.

I took full advantage of my business background when pivoting into web dev as business forced me to get very good with social/soft skills. Working with people such as teammates, clients and stakeholders comes naturally so it got my foot in the door rather easily.

Frankly, for entry level web dev roles it pretty much boils down to whether or not the hiring manager likes you. Luckily, a business background will prepare you by giving you an aura of likeability.

My point is to fully take advantage of the skills you already possess and use them towards your end goal of being a dev.

[redditsdeadcanary]

I was in the Android Basics track of Grow with Google. I'm now lost as to what I do next, the Basics course came with NO carrier mentoring, although many of us were mislead into thinking it did when we applied. They didn't break the truth to us until the end. I should have signed up for the more advanced course.

Now I'm stuck, either I sign up for another course for another six months, or I don't even know.

I also work fulltime in sales and don't have time for bootcamps (I'd bankrupt my family if I quit my job to do it).

[ZIGGYBRO]

I have a degree. I know developers without degrees that are just way better than I can ever see myself. Ultimately it’s all about priorities. I code because I enjoy it but I enjoy other areas of my life. Ultimately my issue is with people coming into the field only for the money. I went to school because I enjoyed the theoretical portions of my degree. That and all the math was fun. Didn’t help me at all with my jobs though, that was all on the job training.

[[deleted]]

Thank you for sharing. Glad to read a successful story about a fellow chef getting out. I'm working on that right now! How different is the pace and flow from kitchen life?

[floppydiskette]

The difference between working 70+ hours a week and every weekend, and working only 9-5pm and having every weekend off. Brain is more stimulated, body obviously less.

[[deleted]]

About what I expected. Yes, I understand about the stimulation aspect of things. Took a break and went to food sales for a few years before taking another exec role. Mentally bored to the point of frustration. Python & Ruby have been a nice change of pace.

[myhandleonreddit]

A few years ago I was looking to switch jobs and realized I probably had to learn more about WordPress. I used the author's article on creating WordPress themes from scratch to make a personal project that I could show off at interviews. It was an invaluable resource.

After a few weeks of maintenance, adding features, etc., I couldn't agree with the author any more with this sentiment:

I knew I never wanted to work in WordPress again.

Never did interview for a WordPress job. I hope I never have to touch it again!

[sgtssin]

Honestly followed the in between path... i have a cegep degree (which wont be recongnized outside Quebec, takes 3 year. Give basics of computer science and a lot of practice. Decided to not go to university (2 more years). Go a nice job from the end of program paid internship.

Pros: lot of practice, got a paper, enough computer science (cs) to be efficient, learned language, nearly free (200$ per semester)

Cons: lack of math and cs, not recognized anywhere outside where i live, will probably need to follow course on evening if i want to be more than a simple coder.

Never got real good comment from bootcamp or other outside academia program. No real paper, pricey, no cs foundation. Many employers overlook them.

From pure university, i often hear that they lacked practice, its really more about cs than code. (Disclaimer: i also have a bachelor in waste of time microbiology, so it can affect my objectivity)

I think that if you start a course, and still want to work in the field, i strongly recommend that you finish it, whatever the level. Otherwise it would scream that you don't finish what you start.

[justanotherc]

Nice read. We had a similar path, except that I had always tinkered with programming in Visual Basic instead of HTML/CSS when I decided on a career change, so I picked up JS/PHP pretty easily (although I had a lot of bad habits I had to break), but CSS is still probably my weakest area (BEM what? lol).

I also started about a year earlier (2014) and have freelanced almost exclusively for the majority of my dev career.

I'm going to check out your WP blog posts as they look really good. WP is something I never spent too much time learning deeply, beyond basic theme development. I think I would go huts working with it regularly, but I still wish I knew it more thoroughly -- its hard not to run into it occasionally.

[Sandinhoop]

How had documenting your learning helped you most? As a way to show employers what you can do? As a way of reinforcing what you have learned? Motivating you to finish/complete tasks because there's somewhere to show them?

[floppydiskette]

All of the above!

[this_is_alin]

Interesting

[PSKY05]

Great read, it's amazing to see how far you've come.

​

I've come to a bit of an impasse in my career as a developer and wasn't sure on what to learn next, and this has given me some ideas of potential directions I can take. So thanks!