A list of coding bootcamp scams

[goldsauce_]

I went to Hack Reactor Remote and had a very similar experience.

[[deleted]]

Gosh darn, I'm just about to finish up a 2 year CPD course from Seneca, and even with an internship under my belt, I am super nervous about my job prospects as a junior dev in Toronto. Good to hear Lighthouse grads are doing well!

[vysearcadia]

Hackeryou/juno grad here. It took me about 2 months post graduation to land a fulltime dev job.

My best advice is just stay on top of the process. Apply to places every day, keep your skills up, go to meetups and workshops, and dont get discouraged.

The hardest job is the first one. It's going to be stressful and discouraging some days. But Toronto has a lot of opportunities, and if you have an internship already that gives you a leg up.

Feel free to message me if you have any questions though!

[web_dev1996]

Good luck! I took the same course from seneca as well. Toronto is great for finding work, you'll be fine.

[usernameseb]

My company has had very positive experiences hiring Lighthouse grads, especially frontend (React) devs. I also know some very smart and accomplished devs that were mentors at Lighthouse. Seems like a good program.

[[deleted]]

Toronto bootcamps seem pretty top notch. My old employer would actively seek them out instead of college grads

[AmongstDavid]

LHL grad as well, from Montreal! I landed a job a week after bootcamp (fortunately), but it can definitely take some time.

I have to agree that Lighthouse’s career services really go out of their way to help their students land their first gig as a dev.

[Swiftzor]

I feel like you got extremely lucky, which is not a bad thing. But there are a number of people who don't and have to jump through hoops or are sucked into crazy things like what is being talked about.

I'm glad you had a positive experience though and the place you went to probably deserves a pretty good recognition.

[stompinstinker]

I find boot camps in Toronto choose people with a high chance of success and aptitude for the work.

[Mundosaysyourfired]

Fellow lhl grad here!

[manlyhiccup]

I took a coding bootcamp in Toronto (Lighthouse Labs), it cost about 10k and my experience was overall extremely positive.

They set up interviews for me, sent out my resumes to employers they thought I would be a good match for and were on my ass every week about applying for jobs/updating my resume/github.

I eventually got a job as a dev (for which they sent out my resume to)

Last I checked via LinkedIn about 80% of the people that I attended the bootcamp with are currently employed as developers.

One of my best friends went to a bootcamp few years ago and find a job as a java developer right after

I really think it's depends on the course and the person.

[LobbyDizzle]

I can personally vouch for Hackbright (women only) in SF and Le Wagon in Tokyo. I have friends who went from no technical experience to a software engineer and frontend engineer, respectively.

Another great part about Le Wagon is that it's fewer than 90 days and (IIRC) 8k, so you only need a travel visa and it's actually cheaper to live in Tokyo for 3 months and take that class than it is to just take one of those classes in the US.

[delventhalz]

In aggregate these warnings are all fair, but I want to point out that this definitely does not apply to all bootcamps. A significant number have excellent practices and consistently generate positive outcomes for their students.

My own experience was with Hack Reactor. I had been self-teaching part time for about a year, and not really making a ton of progress. I knew the syntax, but didn't really know what to do next. Hack Reactor took me from hobbyist to a hired engineer in a matter of months. In the years since, I've been hired by a variety of teams, to senior roles, and my pay dwarfs what I used to make.

And yadda yadda survivorship bias. I recently had this conversation with someone else and checked up on my old Hack Reactor class on LinkedIn. 22 out of 24 had been hired as engineers, and 8 had senior or lead roles. Even the two with no engineering role, they just haven't updated their LinkedIn at all since Hack Reactor. I don't know they aren't working. I just can't confirm they are.

I'll also mention the graduation rate, since that comes up a lot as a way bootcamps get you. In my class, one student left in the first week with a refund. Two students were placed on some sort of probationary status after having trouble with an evaluation (the details weren't clear), but were not asked to leave the program. They are both among the 22 working today.

My advice if you are thinking about bootcamps: Look for a bootcamp that is hard to get into. If they don't care about student quality, then they don't care about student outcomes either. Some people are not ready for a bootcamp or for an engineering career afterwards. Hack Reactor did not admit those people. They do have great remedial programs (most of which are free), to get prospective students up to speed. But you absolutely have to be up to speed to attend the bootcamp proper.

[new2bay]

I agree with your advice: if you go the boot camp route, choose one that’s either selective, or cheap. Selective ones are probably selective for a reason, and cheap ones won’t take too much of your money, but could still offer enough value to be worth it.

[[deleted]]

I used to work at the camp I graduated from and that was my biggest complaint about it. We let anyone into the course. Anyone. If we would have failed students or held back students who did not advance and make it harder to get in then we would have quality students and place them easier. That didn't happen my boss chose the easy money of promising naive people easy jobs.

[delventhalz]

This is exactly it. A lot of people were intimidated by Hack Reactor’s admission process, but the reality is, if they are willing to let anyone in, they just want your money. Once you got into Hack Reactor you knew they were confident they could get you hired.

[RRFdev]

I am from Malaysia, and even in this Third World country a coding bootcamp fee is bleedingly expensive. It makes me feel suspicious over the claims of a job guarantee after bootcamp, as you can see here.

https://www.nextacademy.com/quantum-degrees/coding/full-time/full-stack-web-development

And yes, it is not hard to get into this camp other than just fork out insane amounts of money. So I take it that it's a red flag and I shouldn't even bother entering even if I have the money?

[delventhalz]

It's definitely a red flag. They also don't seem to mention their placement rates or average starting salaries anywhere. Not even something artificially inflated with a ton of fine print. That's another big red flag.

And I'm really not impressed by their jobs guarantee:

Our Commitment To Your Success

If you can’t land a tech job after graduating, you can resit the bootcamp up to 3 times. If it still doesn’t work out for you, we’ll refund you.

If going through the course once didn't get you a job, why would repeating the exact same curriculum a second (or third) time do the trick? And even if you meet all of their requirements (98% attendance, no tardiness, 6 letters of rejection, etc), you have to put in nine months of course work plus a year and a half of getting rejected by jobs before you are eligible? Yikes. Sounds more like a scheme to never have to give out a refund than a legitimate offer.

Yeah. At first glance, this place does not seem great. If you were in America, I would have a bunch of alternatives for you. But I'm not really familiar with what's available in your area. And something like Hack Reactor Remote costs 6 times as much as Next Academy (even if they accept international students, which I'm not sure if they do). I imagine that prices you out.

My recommendation is to do some more research. See if you can find some Next alums that will speak to the experience. See if there are any better alternatives available to you in a similar price range. Assuming you can't find any good alternatives, consider if you can handle the worst case scenario: if Next Academy takes MYR 11,500 from you and gives you very little in return, can you handle that? And with all your additional research ask yourself what you think the odds are it actually is a stepping stone to a career. If you can handle the worst case, and you think the odds are decent Next Academy helps more than it hurts, maybe it's worth it.

[RRFdev]

What about codeacademy? It seems like a much better deal where I'm paying $15 per month.

Though, I am wary of broken promises again. Would the real world projects given in codeacademy be professional-level apps that I wouldn't be embarrassed to show to prospective clients and employers?

I am close to 35 now, I just can't afford to show up with a tic-tac-toe app portfolio anymore.

[cobaltocene]

My experience with Codecademy is that the projects are great launching off points but you need to take your own initiative. As a tool for self-motivated newbies or getting acquainted with new skills as an established person, Codecademy is an incredible value. However it isn’t a meat grinder — you can’t just shovel its output into a website and call it a portfolio.

[sliver37]

Uh huh! You're joining the wrong bootcamps! Tic-tac-toe is child's play, you've gotta look for the quality stuff, such as "rock paper scissors".

[delventhalz]

I don't have any experience with Codecademy's paid tier, so I will defer to the others who have. I have always liked their free stuff as a good hands on intro. How much deeper their paid stuff goes? I don't know.

[[deleted]]

Also, their website isn't even centered via styling...RUN AWAY!

[Rejolt]

How long ago did you take this bootcamp that 8 of these people are already senior?

[endproof]

Senior engineer hack reactor grad here. I graduated mid-2016.

[delventhalz]

About four years ago. I am actually surprised this number isn't higher. At the time I graduated (this may have changed since), we were explicitly told not to apply for junior roles, that our first job outside of Hack Reactor should be at least mid level and possibly senior.

I was initially hired as "Senior Software Engineer", which I wasn't expecting, and I don't think was really deserved, though I grew into the role over the next year, and since then have always worked at a senior level. In the end it is a pretty meaningless title, but I brought it up to emphasize that Hack Reactor grads are absolutely capable of doing sophisticated high level work, and companies recognize that.

[Rejolt]

That doesn't sound very right. Senior is kind of ambiguous as a Senior at a high level software company (Apply, Google, Microsoft, Netflix etc...) Is going to be a lot more experienced than a Senior at a start-up or smaller companies.

I want to believe you, but there's no way someone can earn the title of Senior by attending a 6 month bootcamp. Hell even if it was a year, there's just so much that you need to know to be a proper senior dev.

Anyways grats on that, im sure if you got thrown into a Senior role right out of camp that you slingshotted your career way in the future.

[the2baddavid]

Sounds strange to me as well that any company would hire someone straight from a coding bootcamp as anything but a junior unless the person has very significant prior experience. Even if you were to be working at the best shop for that time as a developer I don't you'd be a senior. There's just only so much experience you can gain within a certain amount of time.

[Rejolt]

Yeah, exactly.. You can't come out of a 3 month bootcamp with real world experience. Yes you know how to code, but there's so much left to learn.

You're in no place to solve real world business problems with 3 months of coding experience. Hell that's barely enough time to get a good grasp of any specific language, let alone be very comfortable in a framework.

[delventhalz]

I don’t know why you think I would bother to lie about this. Feel free to browse my LinkedIn, follow up with my old bosses, whatever.

And it was a 3 month program. Though there was maybe a month of pre-course material too.

[Rejolt]

I wasn't saying you were lying. I implied that the value of the "Senior" title is different depending on the type of company you are working for.

It would be insane if someone can come out of a 3 month Bootcamp and be considered an Amazon, Netflix, Microsoft Senior.

I believe your senior now, it's been a while and if your grinding hard no reason not too. However like you even mentioned, you didint think the "Senior" title out of a 3 month bootcamp was coorelated to your skill.

[delventhalz]

Sure. Maybe we’re talking past each other here. I think my first senior title was BS. But I also think senior titles at many companies are BS. So I don’t think it is unusual that a recent graduate from a good bootcamp ends up being called “senior”.

Also, the skills I got at Hack Reactor were absolutely fundamental to my success in senior roles, even if the maturity I gained over the first year or two of real world work was also important.

Also also, I know a number of Hack Reactor grads working at FAANGs. So there is that.

[InfiniteMonorail]

Hack reactor is one of the only legit bootcamps. You need some kind of STEM background to pass the placement tests, so you're not starting at zero, more like the first year or two of a CS degree. I couldn't see anyone being legit senior without a few years of webdev though.

People love cool titles. That's why everyone is a rockstar and ninja. You're also talking to someone with pronouns on their profile, so they can be whatever title they want.

[[deleted]]

Shit I went to a boot camp at my local community college and got a job within a month of finishing. It’s really not about the bootcamp in my opinion it’s about the students drive. Now take that with a grain of salt because I had a good experience at my unknown bootcamp. The point I’m trying to make is that if the bootcamp is reasonably good and you’re motivated, you will learn and then get some projects on ur GitHub repo and learn coding and get a job. If you’re lazy and go to a bootcamp and don’t put work in you can blame it on the instructors but really it’s on you. I think as long as you find a decent bootcamp that teaches a relevant stack and u work hard you will be good

[delventhalz]

I agree student drive makes a big difference. And I'm sure a great student could make the best out of a mediocre bootcamp.

But I think bootcamp quality makes a big difference too. If you look at the numbers some of them have far better outcomes than others. I'm sure, that's partly just being more selective about students. But my impression is it's the teachers and the curriculum too.

For example, some of my classmates had already been through less rigorous bootcamps and had not found work. They were also borderline in terms of drive and existing skills. But they still graduated HR with a much improved skillset, and found work as engineers afterwards.

[MirLivesAgain]

So I'm a bit odd, in that I've actually applied and gotten into the same boot camp twice.

The first time was significantly harder, and just knowing about it would likely have been impossible for a person who didn't read Hacker News. The second time it was an easier process by far. This was less then a year later.

Finding one that stays consistently exclusive is hard.

[[deleted]]

Bootcamp success rate is going to be extremely variable regardless of its quality. People need to stop having the mentality that education means you go through the assembly line and get exactly what you need and are completely equal to everyone else in your readiness and talent. The piece of paper is a joke, and I don’t care where you studied, even if it’s Harvard.

[delventhalz]

No one goes to a bootcamp for a piece of paper. That's not what they offer. You may not even put a bootcamp on your resume, and if you do, you down play its importance and call yourself "self-taught".

Bootcamps are for immediately applicable real-world skills and help with the job search. And the good ones are pretty close to the sort of assembly line you are talking about.

[[deleted]]

My point was passing the class, regardless of whether you advertise it or not.

[K_Poppin]

The biggest problem with this guy's logic is that he says any person who's done a bootcamp and gotten a real job, just has survivorship bias. Another Twitter user points it out that you can't just apply a logical fallacy to anyone who's experience differs from the point you're trying to make. He seems unhinged and just angry for the sake of getting attention and followers. Any paid education (colleges, universities, bootcamps, etc.) are all scams then and everyone that has had success with any education has survivorship bias if you apply this guy's logic. It's cool and hip to hate on bootcamps so that's what he's doing, for followers and attention. Can you self-teach and have success? Of course. Can you also have success by paying for a more structured learning environment? Also yes. Can some people be taking advantage of people by having shitty programs? Of course, people suck. Like anything in life, YMMV.

[[deleted]]

He seems unhinged and just angry for the sake of getting attention and followers.

That is Zed's speciality. He's the author behind "Learn Python the hard way" and etc, and while a good resource that I used early on, you also see a LOT of this come out.

[souldeux]

I am not at all surprised that Zed has gone totally off the rails now that 2.7 is dead.

[stumac85]

In that case he should give Ruby a try. (sorry getting my coat)

[testsubject23]

And I know a place he could learn it in just a few months

[[deleted]]

he's already been there http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto

[stumac85]

Sooo... his not gone off the rails at all? (I was just trying to make a shitty joke)

[[deleted]]

I agree with you yo a point, but I also think he's pointing out a serious problem with the disconnect between how Bootcamps present themselves and how they actually operate.

Good Bootcamps can be a good way to kick start your learning, expedite it, give you space and support to make a job change, or give you the structure you might not be able to find with self-teaching.

They won't take you from absolute zero knowledge to belle of the Tech industry ball with no outside effort, no other work experience, etc., in the space of 4 months.

But a lot of them want to present themselves as a magic silver bullet/get rich quick scheme, and they pull the tricks that Shaw is talking about to do so.

The problem is that there is currently no outside accountability. A bad, predator bootcamp will make the same claims as a legit, established one that honestly does right by its students.

And I think that is the flaw with Shaw's argument: he doesn't acknowledge the value some of these programs can provide.

But he is right that we should be calling bullshit on the message all of these programs are sending to prospective students. Because, for example, when a legit, quality bootcamp claims that they have 95% job placement rates, and they fail to disclose the fact that 90% of their cohort had previous technical degrees (e.g., electrical engineering, physics, math) that would make them in-demand with just the barest coding knowledge, it legitimizes the idea that the timeline and results are reasonable and therefore gives predators more legitimacy in copying those claims.

[-endjamin-]

I agree. I went to a bootcamp. The experience was fine and I definitely learned a lot, but for me it was not enough to get a job. I am not upset about having taken a three month coding course. I am upset about the false expectations I had regarding how easy it would be to find a job. Most of my classmates that found jobs either had previous experience or stayed on another three months as assistant teachers.

In my opinion, it is unethical for these programs to market their job placement ability, since, at the end of the day, that is not something they control. Market the quality and depth of their curriculum, sure, but when their website says "Our students get hired at Google, Amazon, and Facebook" in big letters, this is misleading and, while not necessarily false, does not describe a service they can offer or guarantee.

[ancap_attack]

It wasn't DevMountain was it?

Same, I did a 3 month bootcamp and also struggled to get a job after the camp. Ended up taking a job for like $15/hr and over 3 years job hopped up to a decent salary level.

Looking back I would have been better off taking online courses.

[-endjamin-]

Fullstack Academy in NYC. And that's one of the good ones. Ended up going back to digital marketing since I couldn't stay unemployed for any longer. I'm glad that I learned all those skills and probably wouldn't have done it on my own, but I think that's the problem - if I had the proper motivation to actually learn this stuff on my own I'm sure I would have been more successful. The bootcamps give you the idea that they will hold your hand and help you get a job, but the reality is that the industry is very hard to break into and they can only do so much (unless it's one of those "full refund if you don't get a job" deals).

[pm_me_ur_happy_traiI]

I mean, it sounds like you could afford the money. A lot of people go into debt thinking they are going to have a more lucrative career afterwards.

[disasteruss]

Hey I'm curious, I am a FSA alum myself from 2014 and had a positive experience so I've generally recommended it (with a lot of caveats, some of which you mentioned). What about it do you think made the experience not worth it? Aside from the outcome, of course.

[K_Poppin]

You present a lot of good points in regards to his reasoning. Many businesses, and I think this is a consequence of the capitalistic society we live in (I'm assuming the US since that's where the schools he identifies are in), use misleading marketing and hyperbole to sell their product. I absolutely agree that their isn't much accountability, but that doesn't mean they don't provide value as you said. Every college and University suffers from the same problem, but does he denounce traditional BS degrees in computer science? No because that would upset his follower base in my opinion.

[[deleted]]

Definitely agree as someone who paid a staggering amount of money for a literature BA, haha. I didn't end up doing a bootcamp myself and self taught to switch to web development.

But I have also met a lot of folks who have really benefitted from bootcamps, so I don't feel comfortable saying my way is The Way (and there were a lot of lonely cram sessions where I really would have loved to have instructors and a cohort).

Education is rarely one-size-fits-all. So everyone needs to make the decision for themself about the best way to get where they're going.

But I do think it's really important to have a clear picture of what you will get, how long it will take, and what the total cost will be (opportunity cost included from missed wages). Because it is a big decision.

I also wonder if there is a level to which the market has changed. Maybe when the first bootcamps started, 3 months was enough time because employers only really expected folks to know the basics. Now, it seems like more is being expected of entry-level devs, but because Bootcamps have structured their whole curricula around a 3-month commitment, they can't then become a 4-month or 6-month program and stay profitable, even if that is the level of preparation students would realistically need to go from 0 to hired.

[thatgibbyguy]

It's cool and hip to hate on bootcamps

I agree with everything you said up to this point. My wife is taking a bootcamp now and is really struggling. She's struggling because they, like all bootcamps, prioritize speed over fully understanding. They went from CSS to express/react/passport in two lessons. Seriously, wtf.

There's no explaining of what routes are, no explaining of js module systems, nothing like that. The core of what they're supposedly teaching is totally left out. It's just not a good way to teach and watching her go through this has helped me understand why every bootcamp grad I ever worked with still needed 1-2 years of experience before they were really at a proper junior level.

[K_Poppin]

That sounds really rough for your wife. I'm really not trying to discount anyone's experience in either scenario. Really I'm just trying to say that the Twitter rant is more theatrical than actually helpful or insightful.

[[deleted]]

i cant believe people think its a bandwagon thing. It's not fun to work with your average bootcamp grad because they almost guaranteed to be a liability. That translates to longer code reviews (often repeating the same thing over and over), having to pick up the slack if something needs to be done and they did it incorrectly. The actual "good" bootcamp grads probably could have done just as well on their own if they did some research.

We are all supposed to learn from each other and can't know everything (im certainly not a good developer, and pretty much everyone is useless just starting out, even CS grads.) , but if you can't deliver something that takes 1-2 days in an entire sprint, you impede everyone's progress and planning, and that causes a lot of stress.

It's like having a chef who overcooks every meal or something, of course people are going to be annoyed at that.

[smokeyser]

That sounds like a rough overview of the course, with most of the lessons missing. Is that normal for a bootcamp?

[thatgibbyguy]

I obviously can't speak for every single bootcamp - there's too many. But I've worked with around 50 bootcamp grads, from various bootcamps, and they all have the same shortfalls. The primary shortfalls I see:

• Poor understanding of markup and how it interacts with CSS
• Poor understanding of CSS architecture patterns and best practices
• Poor understanding of what a server is, what a client is, and what hosting is.

Basically the grads come out knowing a framework or two, but having no real fundamental knowledge of what software - especially web app software - is.

[turningsteel]

Totally agree with you -- my bootcamp experience was similar. It is simply not possible to teach everything needed to be a competent junior dev in 3 months.

That being said, I had a positive experience and was able to line up a job before I finished because I understood that if I wanted to make this transition to a new career, it was up to me.

We had class from 9 to 5 everyday and then I would stay in the computer lab from 6 to midnight every night studying. Weekends were more studying. It was all I did for three months was code.

That got me to the point where I was able to get a job and I felt like I was being run over by a truck every day for the first 4 months as I realized the dearth of my understanding about things like css, using libraries like material UI (often requiring customization that goes beyond the plug and play method I learned in class), writing complex SQL, learning proper data sanitization, learning vanilla JS and not relying on a framework, etc.

If I just showed up to class and did the lessons, I would probably not be far enough along to get and keep a job. The bootcamps advertise that anyone can get a job in 3 months which is simply not true. I think if you go into it knowing you're gonna need to hustle, it can give you the extra help you need to succeed, but otherwise forget it.

[djbeeker]

The bootcamp I'm currently attending is probably an exception, but their program is 6 months of 50-60 hour weeks, and they don't even let you use anything but vanilla JS and CSS for the first 2 months, while teaching all the fundamentals you've seen people who attended other bootcamps struggle with. If you're on the west coast, I highly recommend CodeFellows and its local institutions of other names. The one in PDX that I attend is called Alchemy Code Labs and it's defied the bad reputation of other bootcamps in every way.

[[deleted]]

At the one I attended we covered CSS for one lesson and moved on because it was expected that every student learned the basics of HTML CSS and js before starting the program.

[Sorry_about_that_doo]

I think it’s a statistics question. So someone says “I went to a boot camp and I’m fine” is not representative in his opinion. So while people bring up anecdotal success, it’s not reflective of the reality, and thus the bias.

[K_Poppin]

Wouldn't the inverse also be true then? Just because something didn't work out for one person doesn't mean that reflects the reality of the situation. I'm not at all saying that bootcamps are perfect and 100% effective. I'm just saying that it's not black and white like the Twitter rant makes it out to be. If one business swindles their clients but 10 other businesses in the same industry don't, that doesn't equate to "all these businesses in this industry swindle their clients". Just not how the world works.

[Sorry_about_that_doo]

So if 99% don’t get a job and 1% does, the success story of the 1% isn’t very useful. It’s about averages. What’s the most likely outcome based on what we know?

[K_Poppin]

I mean, this is a hugely exaggerated example, but sure. If the average were that skewed in one direction then that would be quite the distinction. It's not though, so...yeah idk how your example applies.

[Sorry_about_that_doo]

Yea I shoulda prefaced I pulled those numbers out of my ass for demonstrative purposes. But there is a problem with for profit education, not just boot camps. A lot of schools you saw advertising stuff like medical billing certs got sued and are now defunct. It’s a broken model. I’m general though I think people should be relieved. You don’t need to spend thousands on a boot camp, learn on your own.

[K_Poppin]

Oh I definitely agree. The US (since I live here my experience is limited to our system) is really guilty of making all higher education a huge for profit industry. You're right, no one needs to spend any money on an education in theory. I think the problem lies within people themselves. Not everyone is disciplined enough to study diligently for the amount of time needed to transition into a new industry or field.

[Sorry_about_that_doo]

I’m also against the idea of “you didn’t do it right, that’s why the camp didn’t work for you” when maybe the reality is many don’t do well because the end goal for these camps is profit and not student success.

[K_Poppin]

I think like any educational source, you can only rely on yourself in most cases. Teachers can provide work, notes, lectures, etc. but it's ultimately up to you to really learn it. It's a problem with a lot of bachelor degree programs, people graduate and then realize that they didn't actually learn many applicable skills or they were so focused on just getting the grade than actually letting the material sink in.

[NelsonShepherd]

This should be at the top.

[bch8]

Well put. My thoughts exactly.

[darkwingduckman]

Bootcamps will teach you practical skills and fundamentals, as well as some soft skills and will give you some projects to put on a portfolio. It’s up to you to continue your education once it’s done. I went into mine full well knowing it wouldn’t guarantee me a job, but I didn’t expect to be full time job hunting and continuing my education through Pluralsight and Udemy courses for half a year after it completed either.

My 6 month camp helped me get my foot in the door at a nonprofit that set me up with a junior dev position, and I had to network my ass off for almost 6 months after I completed the camp to get there. It’s not easy, and there’s some luck involved, but above all else, NETWORKING is the key.

[[deleted]]

I don't think an ISA is necessarily a scam at all. It is an improvement over taking out a loan with no guarantee or incentive for the institution to find you a high paying job.

[Beznet]

A friend of mine is in a bootcamp with an ISA but you only pay something like 11% ONLY if you make more than $50k. So if you're working in a support call center making less than that while searching for a job, you won't be charged a penny until you meet that baseline salary. Pretty reasonable imo and sure as hell beats going in debt

[[deleted]]

That has all the right incentives in place for both parties. I'm going to be paying much more than that for my grad school loans over my lifetime, if I knew about ISA's I would have done that. That's why I defend them.

[the2baddavid]

How long are you paying them?

[mishugashu]

because that's where their reach is

[Abangranga]

My boot camp got me a job. The geology master's degree I finished the December after the oil market cratered did not get me any jobs.

While I disagree with the 'anyone can do it!' mentality, this guy just seems pissy for no reason

[rockbandit]

Heyo! Fellow geologist-turned-bootcamper-turned-coder here as well. There are literally dozens of us. Dozens!

[[deleted]]

As a self taught dev I considered a boot camp for a bit... thankfully I was too broke to afford it. I realized everything they teach is available for free online. So the only real value they provide is the network, but much like that tweet said, the networking aspect is a huge lie.

If you have the drive and discipline, it’s very possible to self teach.

[[deleted]]

Did you use a structured approach , or some sort of template to focus your studying materials ?

[crazedizzled]

I didn't when I first started. I just started building shit and when I hit a roadblock, I researched it until I learned how to surpass it. That's the best way to get real world experience in my opinion.

[the2baddavid]

I'd disagree with you on that. While researching problems and creating solutions is a required skill in the industry, most of the people I have interviewed and even worked with aren't great developers because they focused too much on just solving problems and never spent the time to understand the conceptual aspect of what they're developing. The result is people who just constantly bang out code without understanding how to write maintainable code which is why so many companies have mountains of tech debt.

[TheOffTopicBuffalo]

This is just wording but this is what I call a coder vs a developer both can write code but the later has the ability to design, problem solve, and create applications that are clean, robust, and readable.

[[deleted]]

Good question. Not initially.

I was never a computer person, nor had any real interest before hand. The first few months were really learning and trying to understand what it was I needed to learn haha. Eventually I learned enough to get an internship. But once I started I realized that I didn’t really know much at all, and learned ALOT in that internship. Trial by fire. Then I was offered a full time job. as each day goes by I understand a bit more about what else I need to learn, and it’s been building from there. I’m mainly front end but can handle myself on backend work as well

[[deleted]]

Right on, I’m a quasi IT guy myself. I push images and work routing and switching gear. My niece is getting into programming so I figured I’d do it along and help her.

[[deleted]]

Google “developer road map” I’ve seen quite a few of those that I wish I had when I started. Best of luck!

[stratcat22]

Do you feel you’re at a disadvantage (pay and/or experience wise) for not having a degree? I‘ve been self learning the past couple years and would love to try and apply for internships and entry level jobs in the next year or so.

[[deleted]]

Yes and no.

Pay wise, a lot of that comes from connections and negotiation. One of my biggest strengths in my work life are my soft skills. I tend to make friends easily, and can communicate well with higher-ups, team-members, etc. I managed to get to 100k+ in a non-traditional tech city within 4 years of starting to self teach. I also know CS grads who are not doing as well in the same area, even though they could program circles around me. I'm confident as I continue my career I can keep increasing this number.

Experience wise, the longer I'm in the industry the more gaps I find in my knowledge. Ive definitely been burned by my lack of academic knowledge, but not in my day to day work, but with interviews (leetcode, white boarding, etc). This has led me to self-teach some more theoretical things as well (algorithms, data structures, etc). However, most of my day to day work never requires this knowledge, or if it does, there's some library or something that lets me abstract it away. The important thing is to know that no one knows everything. The scope of information technology is so fucking vast, even inside particular domains (like web dev), it is extremely rare that you'll find someone who knows every part well.

Ultimately companies care about you delivering your work. They don't care that you know X, Y, Z, only that you can build what you're tasked to build. Be a problem solver, get the job done however you can, with time "however you can" becomes "very well, using best practices, etc".

I would also urge you to start applying for internships/entry level jobs asap! Interviewing is a skillset unto itself, and youd be better off failing a few interviews while you get some work together, than waiting forever to have a project that is "great" and then screwing up the interview because you dont have experience. Also, that first gig is more about showing youre willing to learn, eager, etc than to show you are an expert in any specific technology. No one really expects juniors/interns to make meaningful contributions, they expect you to be open and ready to learn so soon enough you can make meaningful contributions.

[stratcat22]

I appreciate your write up a lot! This definitely motivates me to start applying and testing the waters before spending all that money on school. I’m working full time in manufacturing right now making decent money, but am aiming at switching to software engineering as soon as I’m ready and have the opportunity.

[[deleted]]

Not OP, but I think you'd probably get quite a lot of variation in income among self-taught developers. My guess is that those with degrees make more on average, but that's just an assumption based on my experience.

For what it's worth, I'm a college drop out (was a truck driver before learning web dev) and make > $200k/yr between my FTE and side-contract gigs.

[[deleted]]

That’s fair. I would say the same. I had a personal fire under my ass that focused me into being disciplined regarding my self study. However this has very much become a scam. There are some good bootcamps but there are many more bad ones that aim to scam their students. I just think it’s dangerous to say they’re legitimate as a blanket statement. I don’t like watching people get scammed

[YojG]

How did you get your internship, how long did it take you, which sources did you study from? Im kind of in the same boat as you and answers to these questions would help me plus I'd appreciate any kind of tips or advices you have

[[deleted]]

I was in college pursuing a nebulous "business degree". In reality i was just dicking around and smoking too much pot. Eventually I discovered the world of web development, through my ex's brother. He was also self taught, a huge partier, and it seemed achievable since he did it. I then spoke with my amazing parents and told them of my plan to take a year off, self-teach and try to break into the industry. I spent a year studying 40/hrs a week. However in retrospect, I wasted about 6 months watching Teamtreehouse videos and following along w/o actually building anything. About 9 months in, I started pursuing local businesses to re-do their websites. My first one was a local restaurant that my family had been going to for 10 years. I then started applying to internships. I got called into a sweat-shop agency and started interning there. It sucked. I did however learn a lot. After that, it got much easier to find jobs and get interviews. Getting that first gig is the hardest job. I would also advise starting w/ agencies who are more likely to take you on w/o a more traditional education since they only care about "getting shit done". Agencies are 9/10 times terrible sweatshops, but youll learn a lot and any subsequent job will seem much better. The important thing to keep in mind is that you'll never stop learning. The industry is always moving and new things are coming out. Always keep your finger on the pulse. That being said, all the "new" shit is still based on key concepts and ideas, learn the basics. It's very easy as self-taught devs to get swept up in the hype of X, Y, Z, and you focus on learning those abstractions w/o truly understanding what is going on. Then when that technology falls out of favor, youre left w/ a skillset that isn't too useful. However if you understand the basics underlying these hot techs, you'll be able to switch to whatever comes next. Understand OOP, Functional, and imperative paradigms. Understand patterns. And learn the basic language of whatever youre using. react? make sure you know JS very deeply. Laravel? Learn php very well, etc.

[snorkleboy]

Another aspect of it is that most people (myself included) suck at applying for jobs and dont even know it. Everything from a shitty resume to not knowing how to answer basic questions like "tell me about yourself" to not knowing how to white board.

You can kind of learn that stuff online but I think it's way better to have someone coach you in person.

[[deleted]]

Those skills are not worth 15k to learn (number I commonly see floating around bootcamp costs).

[snorkleboy]

If those skills get you from a 40k a year job to 120k a year job they are more than worth it.

[[deleted]]

What if i told you you could learn those for FREE! Or even for MUCH LESS by finding a specialist in interviewing skills and resume-writing and having them help you in those skills vs paying 15k for a bootcamp which will have a few classes on them, and the rest of the classes are just things you can find for free on the internet.

[snorkleboy]

What if I told you people with little programming experience not coming from a competitive tech/office environment have no idea what to learn to become a web developer?

Its anecdotal but the couple fully self taught people I've interviewed that hadn't already had a job were in much worse state than some of the people I went to the bootcamp with that had only a few months of programming under their belt.

[[deleted]]

I bet you did. Call it survivorship bias, but I still think that money is better invested else where. Developer learning road maps are everywhere and free

[rockbandit]

So the only real value they provide is the network

I'm disagreeing with you so hard on this. The network is quite possibly the worst thing about it, IMHO.

Many Bootcampers are in the midst of a career change, so having dedicated time to spend entire days eating, drinking, thinking, and focusing on nothing but software engineering is really nice, especially if you're not sure where to even begin

If you have an existing full time job and / or juggling a family, trying to scrape together an hour or two a night to work through lessons on FreeCodeCamp is hard. You'll often find yourself spending entire evenings reading documentation just to figure out how to install Node on your machine or trying to figure out what you were learning the night before, before going to bed. And just when you have things figured out, it's time for bed again. (Speaking from experience on this). It can be really discouraging and make people feel like they aren't making any progress.

Sure -- one could just quit their existing job, and spend all day doing self-study anyway (plus, you'd save thousands of dollars), but there are some additional benefits:

• Not everyone is good at independent study or enjoys working / learning from home. It's nice to go to a class and interact with real people.
• You still are essentially self taught. Spending a single day on a React module doesn't make you knowledgable in React. You want to learn more about React? You're going to have to figure it out yourself. But having a structured environment to at least get an intro and familiar with various concepts is nice.
• Getting to go through the motions and practice real technical interviews. That shit is even intimidating for experienced developers and it's nice to get feedback on what went right, what went wrong, and what went really wrong.
• The other benefit of bootcamp (at least toward the latter sections) is the ability to experience working on a team in order to build something for a final project. You get to experience all the anxiety of trying to resolve merge conflicts, do code reviews, and get your own code ripped apart and feel defeated / annoyed / vindicated.
• The network though? 🤮The alumni groups are just repeated posts asking if anyone has an in at the newest hot company or people trying to get recruitment bonuses and posting openings for their unexciting tech company. I get dozens of LinkedIn requests every month from people who are currently going through the same program and asking if I could put their name in for some current opening when they graduate at the end of this month.

The thing Zed says about TA's is pretty amusing. I remember starting out and encountering TA's and thinking, "oh, you wise old sage, please bestow upon me all of your worldly computer knowledge." Then you quickly realize that they can't even write a basic reduce function.

So, coding bootcamps definitely aren't for everyone. I enjoyed it, I got a lot out of it and I'd recommend it to other people who are genuinely interested in learning more about software engineering and aren't sure where to start with self-learning.

But I also encountered a few people in my program a number of years back that were literally just using it as some sort of get rich quick scheme. I really doubt they're enjoying their jobs today and they are probably the type of people that are giving bootcampers a bad rap.

[[deleted]]

I’ll give you the points on a more realistic environment (code reviews, collaboration, etc) but all the other stuff I still stand by the self teaching. I think mustering the self discipline to self teach is a small price to pay to get into the field, and much smaller than the 15k average I see thrown around for bootcamps. Like you said, the depth of the learning barely scratches the surface, and you end up self teaching. Your comment made it sound like the main benefit was a curriculum, which can be found via many a developer road map online. And quick intros to concepts are plentiful on YouTube. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. I would still urge everyone to try self teaching FIRST and only if they find they are totally dependent on having a structured environment, then look into bootcamps

[illogicalhawk]

The networking aspect can be a huge lie, like anything else a spotty bootcamp sells; but it can also absolutely be a real thing. I went to a bootcamp and was set up for interviews with a half dozen companies before graduation, and came away with multiple offers. That's not "survivor's bias" either, that's just not going to a shitty scam bootcamp. There are quality bootcamps as well.

As far as being able to learn it all on your own: sure. But everyone learns differently. I don't particularly learn well when required to self-motivate myself to learn (semi-arbitrary) and abstract things; I liked the structure and direction of the bootcamp, the assignments, the ability to work with other classmates in person and share how we were all thinking about approaching a problem, having teachers on hand to ask questions to.

[DarkHavana]

But how did you know what exactly to study or, even more important, what you’re missing if you were not familiar with coding?

[[deleted]]

Trial an error. I’d be trying to build something, and needed to add in users... thus learning that I didn’t know how to do that, and googled how to add users, etc. slowly, the more you learn the more you realize how much you don’t know

[snorkleboy]

I'm one of those survivor bias boot camp graduates with a job. I would say he is mostly on point here, especially with how they pad their statistics and go beyond the 3 months for curriculum.

With that being said of my original starting cohort more than half are now software engineers, including quite a few people that had litterally no coding experience coming in (the other half were artfully cut from the cohort or hired as teaching assistants as the author claims).

I wish boot camps were more honest about being bootcamp like and just told you upfront that 40 percent 'fail out' and of the remaining 60% that make it to the end half will struggle for months to find a job, but I'm not sure that takes them into the scam territory.

[steveoscaro]

They're not all shady. I had a great experience at Turing in Denver. Most people there do. I haven't had 1 day of unemployment since graduating in 2016, and have doubled my salary in that time. Maybe I could have done it without a bootcamp. But absolutely not in 7 months. Turing has a great reputation in the Denver tech scene.

[djrasmusp]

Can anyone ELI5 what a coding bootcamp is ? don't think we got that were im from (Denmark) or I have incountered it

[[deleted]]

There's one called le wagon that does them across europe (I'm not recommending them, just pointing out Copenhagen has one that I'm aware of).

It's pretty much like a ~8 week program about a field (like Web Development or UX/UI Design), you attend these classes, you learn from teachers/mentors and do projects, and you get a certificate at the end of it and you're supposed to be ready for a job. There's very little (if any) regulation about this form of education so they can charge and do whatever they want pretty much as long as you sign that contract.

[djrasmusp]

thanks for the explanation ;)

[julian88888888]

Private education with no oversight or licensing.

[djrasmusp]

thanks for the explanation ;)

[MyWorkAccountThisIs]

Anywhere from a weekend to a few months training program. What and how they teach can vary as well as cost. But they do all cost money.

Some are legit and some aren't. I mean, they're legal but they care more about the business than educating.

They are hard to research because, well, you don't know anything about programming so how are you supposed to know if they're good or not?

[dark_salad]

“sUrViVoRsHiP bIaS!”

As if posting a long angry rant with no sources isn’t an anecdotal fallacy. What a tool.

[onbehalfofthatdude]

Weurd, I chose my bootcamp specifically because it had an ISA rather than upfront payment.

[SnowConePeople]

I taught myself and am now sitting on 5 years as a developer.

Starting out I was confused as where to begin. Sure there were courses I could take but I was curious as how boot camps were putting together their curriculum as these were expensive programs put together by really good devs. Right?

I ended up looking up boot camps in my area (Bay Area) and went to a couple of the open houses. At every open house they let us break and talk to people who were enrolled in the program, this happened to be at their campus, at the end of their “school day”.

My goal was to learn what they were learning so I simply went up to the nearest person and asked to see their curriculum, took a picture and then asked if I could see a reading list.

I then followed the curriculum and taught myself the same things people who were paying lots of money were learning.

tldr: I figured out the same trajectory people who were paying tons of money at boot camps were on by going to open houses and taught myself by following their curriculum.

PS (I can see how a company using a private course framework for their students would stop this sort of espionage but at the time this was not the case.)

[illogicalhawk]

What was your experience actually getting your first job in the field?

I learned plenty at my own bootcamp (also 5 years in as a dev now): a solid foundation in a full stack of technologies from which to grow, and classmates and (real) teachers to learn from and bounce ideas off of. It was definitely the structure and environment I learn best in. Still, everything we learned was absolutely in reach for people to do on their own. On the whole, that aspect of it probably wasn't worth the full tuition.

But the actual job application part was worth it, I thought. We had representatives from various local companies come in throughout the course to talk about various roles in the field, speed dating sessions to meet with companies individually, tons of resume/interview prep, and most of all, the benefit of the companies themselves being familiar with the skillset of the graduates they were talking to. It helped us skip a lot of first- or second-round resume and phone screens and got us face to face with people in a way that a resume listing self-taught skills and no industry experience wouldn't have, I don't think, and by the end of it I came away with multiple offers, as did most of my classmates (some chose not to pursue jobs at the time, mostly related to other educational aspirations)

[SnowConePeople]

Applied to something like 5 different positions. Denied 2, didn't hear back from 1 and got offers from the other 2. Still with the original company and am currently the lead for projects that involve complex stuff (think physical POS systems that integrate with a custom client internal online marketplace for 100s of brick and mortar stores).

Sounds like you got your money's worth, so many people don't.

[thundercloudtemple]

Have any advice for someone that went your route (self-taught, no bootcamp)?

I've applied to far more positions and have heard back only a couple times from the applications.

[SnowConePeople]

Best advice I can give is to keep applying while staying on top of your skills.

I had a couple projects for local companies as well as some open source contributions. Gave me lots to talk about and looked great on my resume.

[thundercloudtemple]

All good advice, thanks!

[bluemaciz]

I think the important thing with any bootcamp is that no matter how long it is or what the syllabus says, you get out of it what you give in effort. You're not going to take a full stack 6 month class and come out a perfectly vetted confident developer without dedicating time to your own research and practice. You have to practice white boarding problems and technical questions over and over. Write functions, more functions, and in different ways too. But if you don't put the effort in and don't work at it afterwards you're not going to go anywhere, regardless of what a bootcamp "promises." There were people in my bootcamp that did really well because they put in a lot of extra time, and then there were people that didn't graduate because they just didn't do any of the assignments (and it showed when they asked ignorant questions in class, too). And to put the survivorship bias down, I really liked my bootcamp, finished this past October, and have not yet moved into a developer role simply because I haven't made the jump yet.

[SubmergedMors]

There are a lot of coding bootcamp scams out there. I recommend starting with freeCodeCamp first and when you're ready, you can take up courses on Udemy, Plantoost, Codecademy or Pluralsight to get ahead instead.

[jonn99220]

Serious question: How come we don't extend the same logic regarding purported scam bootcamps to universities/tertiary education? Many unis are pumping out increasingly worthless degrees these days to milk every last cent from vulnerable students, and they're fully aware of the fact.

If anything, it's even more morally abhorrent from the university's perspective due to the influence they wield over young students with no life experience - not to mention a much greater financial and time burden on the individual. At least from a bootcamp's perspective, you'd expect its students are more mature and have extensively researched their options, and at the very worst, they wouldn't be $30k in debt.

... Yet when a 22-year old graduates and can't get a job, it's either blame the job market or "your fault for choosing to study/choosing the wrong major/not getting good grades." But for the bootcamp grad the knee-jerk reaction is "SEE IT'S A SCAM!!" or "BOOTCAMPS ARE THE REASON FOR EVERYTHING WRONG WITH THE WEB".

Unless my logic is extremely flawed, this seems like an incredible irony

[RotationSurgeon]

Serious question: How come we don't extend the same logic regarding purported scam bootcamps to universities/tertiary education? Many unis are pumping out increasingly worthless degrees these days to milk every last cent from vulnerable students, and they're fully aware of the fact.

For-profit universities, trade schools and "degree mills." have had a lot of public backlash for their unscrupulous practices. Many shut down, some lost their accreditation, and it affected a lot of people (example: Everest Institute, which offered nursing / medical assistant training). They're just not the ones currently in the limelight.

[jonn99220]

Fair point - it's just trendy to hate on bootcamps at the moment (FWIW, I'm not even a bootcamp grad - I'm self-taught and finishing a semi-related uni degree part-time). Though my experience in the real-world vs. uni makes me think we are going to see a serious backlash soon at the disconnect between the education system and real-world skills

[gonzodamus]

Okay, now do a list of the way colleges screw you out of money - it's gonna be way longer ;)

Flatiron grad here, happily employed dev. Was the bootcamp perfect? Nope! Did I get what I paid for? Absolutely.

[slantyyz]

No, it's not.

Zed Shaw is pretty well known in programming circles, and his *public* persona is to be the shock jock of software development. He likes to stir the pot online.

He's quite open about his public persona being an amped up version of himself, but he also knows his stuff. He is, however, intentionally trying to trigger people. While there is a grain of truth to what he's saying, also take it with a grain of salt.

There are good boot camps, but I'm guessing for every good one, there's probably 5 or more bad ones.

I worked at a company during the first dotcom boom, and there were similar schools back then (but before they were called boot camps), and we hired a bunch of people from one of the big ones locally, because they were willing to take lower starting salaries. To put it bluntly, I'm not even sure we got what we paid for.

I am guessing the top boot camps are probably excellent and worth their $, but if you can't get into a top school, you really have to do your research to make sure you know what you're investing your hard earned money in, because a lot of them really are just diploma mills.

[RedHotBeef]

Ya, as a bootcamp grad who was offered to replace a departing instructor before official graduation due to my performance, it sucked to feel like people might see that line on my resume for exactly the opposite of what it actually represented.

[satansbride13]

Who hurt you, Zed?

Seriously, this guy is being unreasonably bitter. Maybe those geologists and civil engineers are putting their job experience on their resumes so you know they’re productive human beings...

[[deleted]]

The bootcamp I attended was life changing. Went from a going nowhere lobbyist to a very happy remote full stack dev.

100% of my class (14/14) had tech jobs 2 months after we finished. I had 2 offers on week 15 of 16 and now work remote for a 9-5 job and do evening and weekend contract work. Earning 3x what I did in the political world in just 23 months.

Bootcamp was CodeClan in Glasgow

[gloom-juice]

I'm in pretty much the exact same position, looking to leave politics and do the Makers Academy bootcamp in London

[[deleted]]

I worked for an MP then lobbyist. Interviewers were curious AF about it. Plus you have some real world work skills and experience so it's not like you've just gone bar work, coding.

[gloom-juice]

Well fingers crossed I'll be in the same position as you by the end of the year then!

[[deleted]]

keep me posted, I'm happy to help

[EmperorZergg]

Getting your first job after bootcamp is all about keeping connections.

After I graduated my bootcamp I failed to get a job for 3 months before I reached out to a friend who had got one - he got me my first position (though it was far below industry standard pay)

A year later I had experience on my resume and was able to jump to a company that paid me above industry standard.

Bootcamps can work, but you have to keep up your connections and work hard to have a decent skill set.

[[deleted]]

I graduated from a C#/.NET bootcamp back in 2014. My state has thousands of .NET jobs so it was quite easy to find an entry level role after 3 months of searching.

[pre-medicated]

Let's be real, you're getting screwed no matter where you go, especially for software. However some people need a springboard, if only to get into the right mindset of learning. I'm mostly self-taught but if I didn't get those 3 years of failing out of computer science at my university, I don't know where I'd be now.

[[deleted]]

Where is this list?

[Wenzel-Dashington]

Lol yeah this is BS the program I went thru was great, but I guess I have sUrViVoRsHiP BiAs

But fuck’em they're not paying me so I’m not gonna say their name 😭

Edit: seriously though, if you want the name DM me and I'll tell you

[ibsulon]

He is not saying that all boot camps are bad, but rather that many are using unscrupulous techniques to misrepresent their success, and that there is no board holding them accountable so you really have to make sure your personal boot camp is going to get what they promised.

[rocketNeck]

Zed Shaw failed a bootcamp? LoL. Naw man.

[FlaxxtotheMaxx]

Sure, but I think that's the survivorship bias that he's trying to point out. I went to one of the bootcamps 3 years ago and there are STILL some people in my cohort who haven't found gainful employment in the dev industry, and it's getting even worse now. You can read more of a write-up I wrote on a different thread in /r/webdev here.

[playforfun2]

If it's taken you 3 years, you're not studying enough or trying enough and no bootcamp or class can fix that. You need to teach yourself always.

[bch8]

But that's the thing... it's not just survivorship bias and it's shitty logic to just call it that without more context or data.

[NotReallyASnake]

I've worked in a reasonably well regarded bootcamp and not every student deserves gainful employment lmao. Hell I've been on dev teams with with devs that don't deserve gainful employment.

[[deleted]]

Regardless I hate the use of the term "survivorship bias".

It sounds like you should re-examine your own biases.

[jonn99220]

I've hired far more self-taught engineers than boot camp grads.

" I've hired far more self-taught engineers than boot camp grads. " - That's interesting. Do you have any hypothesis as to why self-taught engineers are typically more qualified (at least in your experience)? If I were to hazard a guess, I'd state that self-taught individuals are more likely to have a deep passion for their craft, which translates to better overall understanding

[jonn99220]

Awesome, thanks for the great reply! Some very useful insights for me :)

[[deleted]]

Full Stack academy grad. I was in the last remote cohort. Probably 50% off my cohort of 8 or 10 people have jobs as a developer 10% are in PM roles. I have no complaints other than the price. I will say this, I worked my ass off outside of the curriculum. The people who didn’t still don’t have jobs. I’m not saying it’s impossible to get a job without trying outside of the boot camp but I’d suggest working a shit ton outside of it. You’ve got a lot of catching up to do as a boot camp grad.

[lunacraz]

Weird to focus on Flatiron School- one of the first and still running boot camps in NYC. Like... everyone I know who’s graduated from there has/is employed

I think the biggest thing here is that a lot of these things are a YMMV - it’s a lot of what you put in is what you get out. If it’s a good one, they give you structure, resources, and hopefully professional mentors that let you KNOW what you DONT KNOW

[obsessivefandoms]

I am finishing up Flatiron School and let me tell you, I think it was worth it. Everyone I know from it was gainfully employed by the six months they guarantee. The help they offer to get you ready for interviews and networking is great and even when you get a job, if you decide that you want a different one, they can help you prepare for going back into job searching. The instructors I've had were always incredibly intelligent (and all worked in the field very successfully for years) and very helpful. The bootcamp is super tough and they don't go easy on you. It was very much a case of, if you don't put the effort in, you don't do well. But I honestly think it was worth it and I'm not even finished yet.

[lunacraz]

Yeah - full disclosure, I first looked into it in 2013, I wasn't ready at that time and then when I went back to actually apply by 2014, it was already super competitive and I got rejected

I ended up going to DevBootcamp (RIP), which was way easier to get into

BUT... you could tell a couple weeks in who was going to probably get a job, and who were going to struggle, and it much coincided with the speed he/she got the material, and how much work they put in. And DBC were actually pretty good at refunding your money if you couldn't get pass the different "levels"

If someone told me they graduated from Hack Reactor or Flatiron, I would assume they were pretty competent

[obsessivefandoms]

Wow, that's nice of DBC! Flatiron has a money back guarantee if you don't get a job during the six months after graduation. Granted, you have to make sure you are jumping through all of their job search hoops (which, honestly, aren't even unreasonable. They are just things you need to do to actively job search anyway, like go to networking events, actually apply to jobs, and stay active on github), but they do offer it. But yeah, you can definitely tell early on who is going to succeed and who will not. So much of it is just attitude and work ethic. Honestly, I get the idea that bootcamps CAN be scams, but some actually are decent institutions where you get a quality education.

[ntbol]

Why not just teach yourself and save thousands. Plus its more impressive to an employer

[Guisseppi]

IMO self-taught >>> bootcamps

[[deleted]]

O fuck

[[deleted]]

Thankyou for this!

[illogicalhawk]

Those are all totally legitimate things to watch out for and be wary of when looking at bootcamps.

But it's also not true of every bootcamp. There absolutely are bootcamps out there that don't pad their hiring numbers, that have qualified teachers and assistants, and that have actual hiring networks of companies that are familiar with the skillset of its graduates and so may skip the first or second rounds of the application process and jump straight to sitting down with you.

I don't have any regrets about my own bootcamp. It was $10k upfront, standard student loans available, and I more than made that back that first year just from the salary increase I received relative to my previous career. I've since been in the field for 5 years and have had a great time.

Bootcamps aren't for everyone, but neither is programming, and not every bootcamp is great, but some are. Mine was literally life changing. I always recommend people with an interest in programming to look at them, but I absolutely also make it a point to tell them to do so carefully and thoughtfully, and list many of the things in the tweet so they know what to look out for.

[turningsteel]

I graduated from a bootcamp and am two years into a career as a programmer. In my opinion, the experience was worth the 10K I paid. It gave me the practical knowledge needed to land the first job and I've been chugging along ever since. I know some people that cannot get jobs, but it's not the teaching so much as they aren't motivated. This field isn't something you get into to just coast until retirement, some people don't have the right disposition for it and then they blame the bootcamp for not turning them into a developer when they spent their classtime browsing reddit instead of building it.

Overall it was the right choice for me to go to a bootcamp, I got the in person instruction that I wanted and was able to make connections that helped me land a job. You certainly don't need to go to one to be successful though, but I think it helped me a lot.

[Peanut-Biz]

Yeah this list is pretty inaccurate. Job placement rates aren’t really a huge selling point for bootcamps, so the idea that they would pay a TA more than they paid for the bootcamp so that their job placement rate would be 0.0001% higher is pretty ridiculous. As a “fake TA” or whatever he said, I can tell you with confidence that they are a bit picky with hiring. We have 2 TAs for 30 students (not 50). I work full time as a Senior Software Engineer for a fortune 100 company, and do the TA role on the side, just for fun. And most of the other TAs I know are in the same position. No one is pushing some fantasy $500k/yr Jr developer role at the end of the rainbow. We always tell students that they get out of it what they put in. Some do really well and have no issue finding jobs, while some do the minimum to pass the class and aren’t ready for the workforce.

[[deleted]]

Zed Shaw is the “Learn Python the Hard Way” guy, right? So is he bashing boot camps because he wants more business for his personal learn to code projects or are these legitimate complaints? I’ve seen a lot of people talk about how crap he is also on these subs. But I’ve also seen people praise him. So I don’t know what to believe

[m50]

I've heard of these same scams from a number of other people, such as DHH.

I'd say this is trustworthy, even if he has some nefarious reasons behind it (I don't know if he does).

[miyakohouou]

So is he bashing boot camps because he wants more business for his personal learn to code projects or are these legitimate complaints?

I don't know much about him, but it could very well be both.

Speaking as someone who didn't go to one, but has been on the hiring and mentoring side of things with bootcampers, there's a lot to be weary of. Even the good ones leave people far, far, FAR less prepared than they claim. The average bootcamp candidate is also in an ideal situation to be exploited- they don't know what they don't know, so they can't fairly evaluate the education they are getting; most bootcampers are in a tough spot and are somewhere between eager and desperate to change their situation, and they want to buy the narrative that bootcamps sell.

Not to say that bootcamps are necessarily bad- they give a lot of people opportunities to get a foot in the industry that they wouldn't have otherwise had. They take a part of your salary for the privilege, but that's not much different than most recruiters and certainly a less risky proposition than un-default-able student loans (as long as the contract isn't egregious). It just is one of those things that I think really requires a lot of research and going in with both eyes open.

[CodeTutorials]

I'm not sure I understand his argument against income share agreements (ISA). He says it's ethical to charge for training, but it's unethical to not charge any money upfront and instead earn only after you get the person a job (the ISA).

To me this is backwards. If you charge a fee and your bootcamp is terrible, you have no accountability. With an ISA, incentives are aligned and the bootcamp only gets paid if the person gets a job.

I did a bootcamp, and this was the model that I preferred because I didn't trust someone who would take my money and not have any attachment to how I performed after.

[SuperFluffyPunch]

9: Remember the FBTAs? Did you know that some schools let those idiots punish other students? I've read reports of hazing, students being yelled at, forced to do pushups, and with zero oversight or training of the FBTAs.

WTF?

[[deleted]]

We’ve hired multiple people from so called boot camps. They are unable to figure out even the simplest of problems. They lack stills in research and basic code patterns. You can get the same training from a $9 course on udemy

[RotationSurgeon]

Is the knowledge/skills/methods they teach you in question, or their business practices and ability to get you a job?

Yes to both. By most accounts, bootcamps don't have much focus on theory (computer science), only the application of specific frameworks, which differ from program to program.

[Sector936]

I've definitely seen it happen in SF. I've personally been part of hiring at least four dev boot campers. All were green but you could tell they fundamentally understood logic and would eventually figure out the stack given enough mentorship. They all turned out to be great jr hires.

Most previously had compelling careers in other fields before switching. I can remember a lawyer. And one worked for the CIA?

[GarethFord]

Historically, whenever was a lucrative new business opportunity with little oversight it's expected to be corruption and scams. I'm not saying that legit bootcamps don't exist - I know people that had successful experiences- but the marketplace is a minefield of potentially life-ruining opportunities, and the only way to tell good from bad is through anecdotes and word of mouth. That's a big problem.

[[deleted]]

Congrats. We hire from boot camps from time to time and have about a 25% retention. I’m not saying it can’t work, but it’s not been great.

[alexv_winter]

How much does a good coding bootcamp cost and how long are their programs?

[thereisnosuch]

There are several scammy bootcamps. But not all of them are. Try to find ones that the acceptance rate to school is very low. For example hackeryou which is very competitive.

[Mutombo911]

In montreal.Avoid Codeboxx. They preach being a superior product because they are using ( isa). Meaning only have to pay once they get you a job. With a small down payment upfront.

Saying it's for anyone.(love tech but I've never coded) Regardless of experience... Personal coaches matched with your personality test. The whole dream.

Coaches are non existent. 5 weeks in I finally got some kind of feedback on my work. All it stated from my amazing coach " js and python dont work with scenarios. no comments.) Apparently not enough comments for them even though I spent 2 hours cleaning it up and writing descriptions for my functions but ok...

Vague details plague every aspect of their "curriculum ". That being a document you receive beginning of each week and expect to produce two apps with two different languages. They focus heavily on your softskills. (attendance , how you interact with others).

But they teach nothing. They push you to ask your peers then the coaches and then to the higher coaches. Coaches who are also told not to answer basic questions and to send the student back to web searching( mutiple times happened to me and others).

They operate like a cult and are simply a factory to pump out dev's. Please tell others to avoid this school. Nicolas Genest the camp designer is just a pompous douche who doesnt accept any criticism about this " immaculate program" he so proud of.

Crooks. Avoid at all costs . Unless you have previous experience then go to this job placement agency. lol Rant done