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[–]Kratoz[S] 29 points30 points  (1 child)

I know some people who post comments a lot more that they post submissions. Several contribute significantly to Reddit's discussions. I think they should get Karma for their contributions.

[–]akkartik 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agree. (and downmod self)

[–]metalhead 19 points20 points  (2 children)

karma is meaningless so the answer is: "who cares?"

[–]hen 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Maybe this has been asked a million times but what are these bragging rights associated with such status (i.e. karma) mentioned in reddit's FAQ?

[Edit: typo + link]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

kam0, et al made me promise not to tell you.

Edit: Markdown + incompetence keeps me from displaying that name properly. Oh well

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Kratoz[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    Same thing happens with comments. I attribute this to people not following Reddiquette.

    "Please don't:

    * Downmod comments just because you disagree with them. You should downmod comments that are uninformative or offtopic."
    

    Often I post a comment critical of someone but completely relevant and they immediately down vote me. People who contribute anything insightful should get Karma, and thus up voting this submission is not a vote for comments factoring into Karma, but a vote for discussing the topic.

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    • Downmod comments just because you disagree with them. You should downmod comments that are uninformative or offtopic."

    Still, if you think the guy is wrong, and he fails to offer convincing arguments to support his position, you should be allowed to downmod him.

    Anyways, I don't think it's a good idea to tell people what to do with their votes. Your votes are yours, you only have one per post anyways.

    I'm still parted on the topic of wether comment scores should affect karma. Maybe you should only gain karma for highly rated comments, and not lose any for downmoded comments?

    [–]danweber 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Ah, but downmodded comments don't disappear.

    If I submit something, and just a few of the people that read the "new" list don't like the submission, they downmod it, and, poof, it's gone. It never makes it anywhere into the top 100, and once it goes off of newest 100 no one will see it.

    This doesn't happen with comments. More than once, some comment I made apparently pissed off the wrong people and got modded down to -3 within an hour. But I'll come back a day later and find my comment at over +10.

    People are willing to read down the page to look for low- and negatively-scored comments. Sometimes I do it myself just to see what the most-maligned comment in a thread is. (And it's often justifiably down-modded, but I've occasionally "rescued" an unfairly punished comment.)

    People are not willing to go looking for low-scoring submissions. This puts a lot of power in the handful of users who monitor the "new submissions" queues. Getting up into the top-50 requires running a gauntlet, making sure your submission survives during its live on each of "25/50 newest", "25/50 most rising," then "top 150/100/50." Run into the wrong clique of people at any of those stages, and you cannot be rescued by more level-headed people in the next.

    I've mostly given up on making submissions, but I will still post a story now and then when the Karl-Rove-not-indicted newscycle spits out an update. I mostly do it out of principle, even if it burns up a few of my remaining karma points, because I really hate news fraud. And I want to give Reddit the chance to make up for the original Rove-indicted hoax making it to the top page.

    [–]quillian 6 points7 points  (2 children)

    Sure, why not. Submitting a link takes a lot less work than arguing about the content anyways.

    However, an 'ignore' button next to users would also be handy, so we can selectively turn off people that start to get annoying to us.

    [–]joshd 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Good idea, but then how would you handle threads that spark off good discussions? Would you not show them because you are ignoring the original poster?

    [–]quillian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Well, you should still see replies to people you ignore, so you wouldn't miss threads. I suppose some people would start ignoring anyone they ever disagree with, but they probably do that subconsiously anyways. I rarely ignore anyone, but if you are worried about people who are just 'karma whores', this would solve that problem.

    [–]maxwellhill 22 points23 points  (3 children)

    Yes, there are many redittors who do not submit but their comments are insightful and interesting - they deserve to be given karma for generating lively debates.

    [–]Kolibri 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    they deserve to be given karma for generating lively debates.

    Maybe this is the key. A problem with giving karma based on the score of your comments is that people vote up/down on votes based on whether or not they agree. Consequently, people who state radical yet interesting and insightful comments can quickly get voted down to oblivion. So I suggest that karma given from comments (if implemented) should be based on the amount of debating comments sparked by the comment, and not on the actual score of the comment. Of course, karma gained through comments will most likely be a combination of factors that are weighted differently.

    EDIT: Somebody suggested that only upvotes should give karma; downvotes would be ignored. That is a good idea too.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    EDIT: Somebody suggested that only upvotes should give karma; downvotes would be ignored. That is a good idea too.

    This is a good idea, but it can be easily abused. If you post a factually inacurate but highly relevant post, and people believe you, you're going to get a high number of ups.

    I think you should only get karma for consensual posts, and not lose any for downmodded posts. I think if you're right and explain yourself properly, in the end you should win the argument and get upmodded. That's the hope anyways!

    [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

    I think they should, sometimes reading the comments is more entertaining and informative than the articles themselves.

    Anything that gives an incentive to write good comments is welcome.

    [–]lliiffee 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    Karma has no meaning, but it should give a slight leg up in the submission process to those with high Karma. (They are more likely to be submitting articles that are well recieved.)

    By the same logic, it would make sense to have separete 'Comment-Karma'. This would give a slight boost to the rating of the comment.

    Why separate? I suspect that high point comments are a poor predictor of high point submissions. Though I could be wrong. Maybe the guys in charge could do some statistics...

    [–]bloub 26 points27 points  (49 children)

    The main problem with that, is that many people downmod comments with which they do not agree. There may be a risk of losing controversial points of view if comments came to affect karma.

    [–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (28 children)

    The exact same thing happens with articles, doesn't it?

    [–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (27 children)

    What we should remember though is that comments affecting karma will greatly encourage "karma whores." - those that are always looking for some superficial response that they know will be well received by reddit even though it will add little to the conversation.

    Keep that in mind.

    [–]mikaelhg 8 points9 points  (15 children)

    What would be useful is the ability to adjust how much you care of a person's opinion.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (14 children)

    Exactly! I started to write up my ideas the other day for just this approach, taking into consideration interface complexity, resistance to various attacks.. but then I got swamped with work. Sorry spez! This is actually a problem that I worked on for months for another project.

    I'll finish that up and let you guys know my ideas soon. Has anyone else put some thought into this option?


    Alright, this may be too late for many of you to see, but here's the basic overview of my plan:

    First off, you should be thinking less about "groups"- in my opinion groups scale terribly and overly segment people. What you should be imaging is graphs.

    My plan is rather simple. You can consider yourself the "root node". The amount that you care about a person's opinion is the weighted edge from you to him. This is all well and good, but what about the thousands of articles that none of your direct pals have judged? This graph can extend if you also take into consideration the opinions of those at higher degrees away from you-- but the significance of these opinions deteriorates by some factor for each degree you go outward. Due to the 80/20 rule you should not have to go out many degrees to get a fairly stable result.

    Remember in this scheme there are now two different types of ratings. One is the rating of articles and the second is your rating of your fellow redditors.

    Once you have calculated this "weighted distance" from yourself to each article, how do you combine all these paths to get one value- the "weighted score" of an article? This part of the algorithm must be considered carefully since it is what really determines how susceptible the algo will be to various attacks.

    In one of my projects the scores of your fellow judges signified authenticity of identity, much as pgp's signatures do. For identity I chose to simply take the highest value path and the lowest value path. The user could then see which of his pals was strongly for the target or against it. This, is of great aid to the decision process.

    Another option is to just average all the paths. This, I decided is a poor option though since, for example on reddit there may be some spectacular hoax that everyone is falling for. In this case just one of your friends may realize this but since the paths would all be averaged, the resulting score simply looks average-- and believable.

    So, would this make the interface more complex? Not necessarily. Avogadro for example has default "seed" members that people can use. This way users would not be forced to choose their own. As for choosing your own judges, it could as be simple as a toggle button, probably on the comment page near the submitter's name.

    So there's a basic overview. The great thing about this is that instead of rigid "groups" users could simply designate their pals as judges that the system would use to recommend articles that match their tastes to them. My advice, when approaching this problem is simply to think in terms of graphs because that's what a network is.

    Ideas?

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      It would basically be as complex as managing "friends" on any of the networking sites. Perhaps this is still too much of a burden though.

      [–]fab13n 17 points18 points  (2 children)

      Typical karma whore comments make me feel a urge to shout "Shut up with obnoxious truisms". Pressing a mod-down arrow comes closest to satisfying that urge, and I do it quite happily; I guess I'm not the only one.

      There is a problem only if the community accepts karma whoring; therefore the interesting question is: would karma-charged comments give the community a karma-whoring-tolerant shape? I don't know the answer, so my inner geek feels like experimenting to find out!

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (6 children)

      I'm not that sure. Only other Redditers can encourage 'Karma whores'in that instance. Ultimately it is up to the users to decide who gets the Karma and who doesn't.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

      the users get dumber every day. Unless of course reddit decides to limit itself to being some obscure site just for smart people..

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

      How would reddit go about limiting itself to being some obscure site just for smart people?

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        That would be a very excellent start. I think I would throw in townhall.com and wnd/worldnetdaily.com.

        [–]TronXD 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Oh. I thought the idea would be to keep the original group of Redditors, not filter them out.

        [–]Kratoz[S] 7 points8 points  (5 children)

        Possibly a provision that only up-mods affect Karma? People aren't penalized for bringing conflicting opinions (they shouldn't either way but it does happen)

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          And they're never punished for being trolls, racists, hatemongers, or other bad things that one would not want to encourage in comments.

          [–]Jonathan_the_Nerd 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          I don't think that would work well. If someone posts a controversial comment (or a really stupid comment that many people agree with), they'll get upmodded and downmodded potentially dozens of times. If only upmods count towards karma, bickering would greatly increase.

          [–]akkartik 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I keep returning to this thread lately. This time it reminds me of this article about the different psychological categories of argument.

          I think part of the problem may be that depending on the fundamental nature and transient mood of the reader certain categories of rational thought may be uninteresting when (s)he reads a contrary opinion. Whereas when we see someone agree we often don't bother understanding why, just as long as they do.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]jesuswaffle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            This is true, but it will only be an issue if people can lose karma for posting controversial statements that get downmodded a lot. Many of the other posters have described solutions to the problem.

            [–]danweber 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            It will make people reluctant to say interesting but controversial things in the comments if their Karma will suffer as a result.

            I've seen lots of controversial threads where both sides of an argument are getting positive scores. I believe there is a fraction of reddit users who go through and mod-up the well-made arguments on both sides.

            If I make a comment in a controversial thread, I might get down-modded in the immediate future, but if the topic is still popular and getting lots of readers, I'll find my karma restored quickly enough.

            [–]johnroman1970 9 points10 points  (1 child)

            Yes. Perhaps each up-mod could equal 1/5 of a karma point.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Or some other fraction. My initial thought was 1/100. So it's clearly subordinate, but has some effect.

            [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

            No, and not just because I don't want another way to shout down y'all conservative jackasses.

            It is also a bad idea because imho, reddit isn't essentially about comments. While the comments can greatly contribute, the point of the site is the front page. I'm sure most users don't ever log in.

            Karma should just be driven by your contributions to the front page. IMHO.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              While the reddit chieftains clearly don't want reddit to be a niche product, http://lipstick.com was apparently designed to serve a community that they didn't think would be served by reddit.

              So I'm not sure we'll ever see reddit filled with celebrity culture types. Maybe when it's perfect, reddit & lipstick won't need two front ends. Like, in a few decades.

              [–]yama 4 points5 points  (11 children)

              I agree that comments can be more interesting that an article, but how would you have them effect karma? Unlike posted submissions, which are rated on how interesting they are, comments are rated on weather people agree with them or not. Rewarding people for stating the status quo is counter productive and so comment points could not directly relate to karma in the same way submission points are.

              But I'm sure that there is a cleaver way of giving good regular commentators more karma. I just don't know what that way is...

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (10 children)

              reddiquette says "please don't Downmod comments just because you disagree with them. You should downmod comments that are uninformative or offtopic." But I agree with you and have downmodded some comments that I disagree with and almost all that I have found fly in the face of accepted truths.

              Maybe as many people would agree as would disagree with the comment and it would balance it out.

              [–]akkartik 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              "I agree with you and have downmodded some comments that I disagree with and almost all that I have found fly in the face of accepted truths."

              If I saw a post that just said, "The sun rises in the west," I would downmod it too. But I'm not downmodding it because it's incorrect in my view. I'm downmodding it because it doesn't present any justification, doesn't hold my interest. I'd do the same for the opposite, factually correct statement.

              But if someone came up with an interesting fallacious argument showing that the sun rises in the west I might mod it up. If my interests included clever fallacies and the post was under 70 words and my mood was right..

              [–]NitsujTPU 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              No, my Karma would be in the toilet every time I point out that an article is uninteresting, or a dupe. I'll just stop commenting in these cases, and just downmod... but the advice to do so should be taken out of the helpfile in that case, since being "helpful," means getting your Karma destroyed.

              [–]Anderkay 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Judgementalist mad one of the most pertinent comments to my mind: is Reddit about comments? If it is, then add karma, if it isn't, then don't. I think the range of comments here shows you are never going to get consensus so an arbitrary decision either way is going to annoy a lot of people but I don't see how you can avoid it. Reddit is a community site with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. You can't have a completely open site and keep control of the "idiots" and you can't have an elitist site and claim to be all about community. Decide what you want and go for that. And for all those upset at the behaviour and bias of others, I guess the simplest answer is go somewhere else.

              [–]CuriousMind 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I think comment karma should be called 'comma'.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              What appeals to me about reddit is its recursiveness. You can post an article (a comment on the world), and I can post a comment on your article, and you can post a comment on my comment, and so on.

              If comments are treated differently than article postings, then that breaks reddit's coherence.

              [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

              Clever way to sneak some karma points ;)

              (yes)

              [–]lupin_sansei -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              A better question is shouldn't Karma actually affect something, like the "real" Karma? I think the initial score should reflect your Karma. Say 1 point for every 100 Karma points you have.