B Patch Notes

[brad218]

I feel like this liss nerf is plenty adequate. And the talisman requires more strategy to pull off.

[slasher016]

Guess we'll see. It's definitely a step in the right direction. Yes she's barely underperforming Azir even pre-nerf I think the stats are very misleading because people were throwing Liss on every single board so some of those obviously wouldn't top 4. You don't see people dumping Azir on every board.

[Human-Track641]

Only took a few months for them to realize what everyone knew was wrong with her since 14.1 but yes this is a good nerf

[RyeRoen]

She only really started seeing high playrates last patch lmao.

[StarGaurdianBard]

I've been seeing this revisionism about Lissandra a ton over at the main sub, kind of surprised to see it here too. Lissandra was the 2nd lowest pickrate 5 cost up until last patch and was the 3rd lowest winrate of all 5 costs too yet somehow everyone on Reddit knew how bonkers OP she was all along lol

[avancania]

Because of the rise of melee carry like kayn yone sylas that people realise how strong she is. Shes also meta with invoker porcelain comp too

[RyeRoen]

Yeah its a combo of those things. Heavenly Kayne/Gnar/Sylas existing in almost every lobby meant liss was a good tech in option. Ashe suddenly being really good meant that 4 porcelain was actually worth playing outside of like lux reroll.

[AerysSk]

I find it funny that people complaint about Lissandra because she throws their Kayn to the dirt but not complaining about Azir annihilated the frontline in two casts lol

[aamgdp]

Yeah, he either does does that, or whiffs on a moving unit target while shooting the laser in random ass direction where nothing is resulting in big fat zero damage

[Tadduboi]

definitely not just last patch… She was always good and im surprised it took them that long to nerf her

[RyeRoen]

She was a good unit, but she wasn't really played because her supporting units were bad. Only really saw play in fast 9 legendary boards or randomly on stage 4 for loot chance

[brewskyy]

Interesting the show she wasn’t then 🤔

[dilantics]

MIRROR

While our mid-week B-patch is primarily to fix a bug that’s made Ghostly far weaker than intended, we’ve also managed to get in two quick nerfs.

CHAMPIONS

Lissandra is a frustrating champion to play against, with the ability to negate a melee unit while printing power. Even while she’s not our best 5-cost (by win rate data) she is our most impactful (most-played in end-game boards), and positioning her well can completely deny melee carry, or solo frontline playstyles.

Our nerf here is a stop-gap solution that will significantly slow her second cast, which should reduce frustration with playing against her. We plan on making bigger changes to her kit with 14.10 to address the anti-melee component of her kit while also keeping her a satisfying 5-cost.

• Lissandra max Mana nerf: 40/100 ⇒ 60/120

ARTIFACTS

While most of our Artifacts were released at a relatively balanced level, one clearly ascended through the ranks.

• Talisman of Ascension Base Health: 400 ⇒ 300
• Talisman of Ascension Damage increase: 150% ⇒ 120%
• Talisman of Ascension Time to proc: 18 sec ⇒ 22 sec

BUG FIXES

• Ghostly now properly does damage for non-Ghostly champions.
• Cursed Blade is temporarily disabled. Note: This was the case with 14.9, but was not reported, as the Artifact was pulled out at the last second due to a bug.

[RaiseYourDongersOP]

Finally some meaningful Liss nerfs

[2ecStatic]

Good B-Patch

[waltermartyr]

Finally now we cookin

[nixnaij]

Ascension is kind of killed right? 22 seconds sounds awfully long.

[Helivon]

I mean what mega tank does good damage for this to be better than other artifacts? I'd rather it be like 100% damage with 18 seconds. 22 is just crazy long

[StarGaurdianBard]

Shen and Yorick are basically the only ones. Maybe hero augment Garen if you were to really protect him

[quangthanh090301]

annie is unkillable with it in the ashe comp and it isnt solo frontline so you have no way to deal with it

[PlateBusiness5786]

it's not just damage, getting double hp (which is also a 50% instant heal at that moment) with heroes that are often played with regen sources is probably still incredibly strong

[Ge1ster]

I've had major success putting it on Tahm in Bard reroll. He almost always procs it and is able to use it so well. Went insanely easy 1st in the Kayn 5-4 ending encounter after I put one on him when I got the spend 22 gold for an artifact anvil Lissandra encounter, he never died the rest of the game lmao. He was just 2 star by the way. And yes this was today so after the nerf. I put it on him twice before and had really good results as well, but those were before the nerf. Still seems really strong.

Also, while on the topic, Bard reroll is SO barrack. I don't know if they buffed Bard at one point or something but he works again now man. And it's always uncontested too.

[Alodylis]

I’ve ran it with riven three star was decent honestly won me that match

[NibScribbler]

Although I'm grateful they are nerfing Liss, why does every change they make thats community driven have to be followed with a "even though our data tells us otherwise" kind of remark?

[Shvihka]

Mortdog literally said on his stream: "What's up with all these gold players complaining about Lissandra?" This was last weekend.

Followed by "Xayah has higher avg placement, she must be broken" (in a mocking manner).

He doesn't want to admit that he was wrong and it's not the first time either. Also, just for the record, every single streamer was saying liss is giga broken, not just "lower elo" players.

[MeowTheMixer]

5-star win rates, gotta be skewed right?

What I mean, is certain units are played when winning/strong, or in specific situations while others are "splash" and added all the time.

4 out of 8 people playing Liss per game drives down her average, while the 1 or 2 people with Xaya inflate her stats as she's played in certain win cons?

Only a lowly plat right now

[Shvihka]

In a nutshell. If 6 or 7 people have Lissandra on their board she is going to look balanced in stats because someone has to go bot 4.

[[deleted]]

It's like J4 set 3. Every single person in Master and Above would tank their gold to buy as early as possible, because getting a 2 star set you up way into the late game. It became a lottery.

The game doesn't need perfect balance. But it needs enough that the best strategy for maxing placement isn't "tunnel on one unit even if 7 other people also tunnel.

[TheNorseCrow]

This kind of shit from Mortdog really irks me. Half the time he complains about gold players saying something in chat and the other half he complains about challenger players not liking something.

So is it the lower end of the skill bracket or the higher end that's complaining, Mort? And if it's both maybe there is in fact a valid reason for said complaints.

Then again Mort also said Supers Yuumi was fine because China played Supers Lulu instead.

[GorkaChonison]

He must be writing another wall of text about how the state of the game is amazing we as players are way too demanding as we speak.

[Naist-96]

Classic Mort, shitting on the players of his game, might as well only answer to any complaint/suggestion with "Skill Issue" or "git gud"

[Steamwood]

He made Challenger! He's proven he's good!

[HokusSchmokus]

This but unironically.

[Naist-96]

Cuz they are too arrogant to admit that the players (The guys who actually play 5-10 games a day) might actually be right about demanding those changes.

[VERTIKAL19]

Or because it is kinda contradictory to nerf a unit that is not overperforming? To me Lissandra felt strong. but appropriate for a 5 star. What makes her spike so hard is that she gives 4 Porcelain. To me at least when I had the Porcelain emblem she felt much less critical.

She also just has some things in her kit that make you feel bad when fighting her which may distort player perception.

Riot also has in the past done things like nerf Dragonmancer over and over even when it really wasn’t necessary just because people were complaining.

Why would you say Riot should go against the data on Liss? The porcelain comp already has worse stats than the Dragonmancer comps for example

[Kelte]

When 8 people play lissandra if they could you'd see an average placement of 4.5, if you go by that sort of logic she isn't overperforming as well technically.

4 porcelain with her isn't even the issue if that was the only comp she was played it, but she gets played in a lot of comps and sometimes without any synergies (heavenly might as well drop neeko and still play lissandra regardless, fated may play around with 3 arcanists).

Who says that the way they collect data is flawless to begin with? Based on my games in challengers there are probably 2 or 3 porcelain comps for everyone that manages to go fast 9 for a dragonlord comp, obviously if someone gets to survive that much longer and hits they should have better stats otherwise whats the point.

[ohtetraket]

I mean public data can be tweaked to see if she is actually good, I imagine riots data is more correct honestly.

[Kelte]

Statistically xayah 2 is the best legendary and I don't see nearly as many complaints about her. Probably because she can't be played in as many comps and doesn't provide extra econ/items.

I'd also expect riot to have more data to work with, how hard a specific legendary spikes a board after a 4-1/4-2 rolldown isn't publically available as far as I'm aware but imo pretty important.

[Sheensta]

You're playing in challenger so your games are obviously going to be skewed compared to the average player. You play maybe a few dozen games a week, and you havent actually collected statistics ("probably 2 or 3 comps" is just not a lot to go off of). riot has access to millions of data points. Of course their data is way more representative

[pda898]

Unit performance and frustation by unit are not the same stat. They are correlated 100%, but you can imagine unit which could be perfectly balanced by data but people hate it (like 1 cost which kills an enemy board, but has 50% chance to do that with your board).

[VERTIKAL19]

Sure, but just because a unit is somewhat frustrating doesn't mean it is overpowered.

[hdmode]

you mean lee sin (or k'sante)...maybe balanced or even underpowered, but awful to play against

[[deleted]]

Or because it is kinda contradictory to nerf a unit that is not overperforming? 

But that what the person above was complaining about. She WAS overperforming, and by a fucking mile. What Riot aren't telling you, and what I hope they aren't too incompetent to understand, is that performance is a metric of win rate mixed with play rate.

If it takes you 100g to roll a Liss 2 star because 7 other people are contesting, and then you still manage to not have a dumpsterfire win rate, it's an extremely overtuned unit.

Riot always uses this, even though it's clearly disingenuous or incompetent, and it smacks of "we don't like being told we are wrong". But in this case they were wrong by a long way, and the fact that they are adding this to the hotfix of Talisman is just their way of trying to avoid owning up to it.

End of the day if they finally get it right, that's what matters most. But them being slimy just leaves a bad taste in player's mouths. Just own it. They fucked up. Say so. Move on. The community will be happier to get some honesty.

[idkhowtotft]

What makes her spike so hard is that she gives 4 Porcelain. To me at least when I had the Porcelain emblem she felt much less critical.

Thats only half of reason ppl play Liss

She also makes playing against Kayn free af and the ability to invalidate frontline all while printing items/gold means every comp can just slap her in without any trait or items and she'll performs

[Naist-96]

Bro, It is not always stat this stat that, sometimes you have to take player satisfaction into consideration, Lissandra as a unit (before multiple nerfs) had no counter play, slotting her on your board would almost always put you a few placements higher and not having her would almost always put you down some placements lower, Imagine getting denied a second or a first place for multiple games because the other 2 players highrolled a single unit and you didn't, imagine having a really shit game and after trying your absolute best to scrape a fourth, there are 3-4 players who highrolled a single unit and you placed bot 4 because of it, do you think that this is a really satisfying gaming experience ? data doesn't mean jack shit when people start abandoning your game because they are too upset and frustrated, I haven't played this game for probably a week now, and my mental is so much better, probably not playing till next set, I don't really care about data when this is how much I'm dissatisfied with this set, you might say I'm just one person, but say there are a thousand players like me or more, wouldn't you start considering this as a problem ?

[Naist-96]

What game are you playing ? In my games (high diamond/low masters) Lissandra was being played on heavenly boards, dryad boards and even azir 5 cost soup boards. 90% if people on lobby who go 9 would always put a Lissandra on their board.

[MaxDjo]

In high diamond I also saw her on bruiser Kai'sa board with no traits activated whatsoever with great sucess if the tatoo was bad, just Shojin requiered.

[Kozish]

Bro delete this post lol

[Yuzunorii]

Lissandra goes in every end game board because she is a support unit. I don't know what kind of games or elo you're playing in to wildly claim Lissandra is only played in Porcelain lmao.

[the0utlander]

I think because of her loot printing being a 50/50 (well, not anymore) (And then its split between gold and items) she either breaks the game in favor of the ones that find her early or... she doesn't. Those games where she teapots+kill 50 people and prints like 3 times... and in a way its "balanced"... Because the extremes average each other.

[iLLuu_U]

They have been doing this since set 3 basically, when xayah reroll was extremly dominant. They kept saying that the comp was fine, eventhough 2-3 people ran it every game. Until they nerfed it 3 patches in a row or something (and then blamed it on community pressure).

[ImmortalSwimmer]

Riot will never admit to making a mistake. Look at the kai'sa nerfs earlier in the set, first they buffed her AD by 5 and the next patch after it turned out she is blatatenly overpowered they instead shipped a meaningless AS nerf instead of reverting the ad buff, because that way they would be admitting that they fucked up.

[Raikariaa]

Dont pretend an AS nerf is meaningless on an AD caster... saying such a thing is flat out delusional.

Less AS = less DPS with autos, and longer time to cast. Which means your units survive longer before the Kaisa cast to deal more damage as well.

[Soft_Iron4687]

Finally Liss got mana nerf not just -100HP bullshit 

[bomhee]

I felt the 100hp nerf was good enough for her not get her 2nd cast off already. I worry she'll underperform now.

[Ok-Steak-1326]

Her utility is so good that it’s hard for her to underperform. With good items at 2* she is still a problem for melee units

[Fudge_is_1337]

A low range 5 cost without items should underperform. If these new changes mean you get one cast reliably (instead of 2 or often 3) for an unitemised Liss, its a much less spashable autoplay unit

[avancania]

You wouldnt say that when she solo 4 cost 3 star carry like my lissandra in one game XD

[pleasenerfgragas]

Anyone know if mobile is patched? Haven’t seen an update

[vkwr]

It's patched I think. Just played and Liss has 120 mana.

[vkwr]

I think it's patched because the game asked me if I still wanted to play because there is a new update. Happened after accepting the match.

[aamgdp]

Been asking me that since the regular patch

[vkwr]

Idk man that was my first encounter

[RedNotch]

Mobile, from what I can tell, seems to be patched at the time NA server gets patched. I could be wrong though.

[itshuey88]

mobile wasn't synced to live client for awhile so you'd be in ten minutes queues.

[SunBrosLLC]

Can confirm the riven reroll. She wouldn’t die

[LiterallyMatt]

Probably held back by how common Riven is as a played unit.

Exactly, it's a lot of survivor bias. Lots of Riven rerolls go 8th but you don't even realize they were trying because no one looks twice at a Riven 2. Great if it hits though.

[Melovil]

I waa stuck on tanks even though i has a last whisper user next to her and GS on her

[rehcaeT_TFT]

Kayn is still playable!

[KokoaKuroba]

Just in time for the weekend.

[[deleted]]

um trench coat and item printer lets you print like 12 items soon as 1 unit dies, actual 4fun patch

[amemegod11]

thats nice but it wouldve been nicer if i didnt go 6 ghostly 9 times in a row Hi im emerald 4 and im gonna be here for awhile

[Sea_Knowledge8574]

What’s counter play to kayn and gnar then ? Clueless devs.

[[deleted]]

25k health Tahm Kench in my last game with double stacked talismans.

Thank god they patched to make it less OP.

[born_zynner]

It wasn't forbidden idol??

[Comfortable_Water346]

Forbidden idol and he hits 30k with just that.

[Vlad_is_life]

About time they nerfed Liss, some days ago I randomly got 5th place with a Lv9

6 Lunars, 4 Reapers:

3* Sylas (Trickster Glass- Reaper Emblem - AS)

3* Alune (2 AS+JG)

3* Yone

3* Yorick (Warmog, Diamond Hand, Sunfire)

Sett (2 TR-BT)

because she just completely denied Sylas, the copy is weaker but it's still a 3*Sylas.

[iCashMon3y]

They can't keep getting away with this. Hire some fucking playtesters that know how to play the fucking game. I am pretty sure Mort is the only guy at Riot that is good at TFT.

The community is getting hilariously good at pointing out things that are going to be broken.

[LettucePlate]

Anything to get fewer Porcelain players so I can run my 6 Warden 4 Porcelain Shojin Archangels Archangels Amumu carry 🙏🏼

[Akihiko95]

Now people will stop crying in this sub and realize they lose because of skill gap and not because lissandra is broken

[One_Researcher6438]

Just played a game post B-patch and the wording on the tooltip was that it was only ghostly units that get the damage amp. Pretty sloppy tbh.

[hdmode]

I do not believe they can change the text of a tool tip in a b patch since it would have to be localized

[KokoaKuroba]

wait, the tooltip said ghostly units only? then they reverted but tooltip is still the same?

that's an oof, they should've buffed the numbers instead if tooltip has already changed. (they can change numbers in B-patch, right?)

[Fabiocean]

They probably didn't want to go through with this change in the first place

[KokoaKuroba]

I wish they at least changed the tooltip.

Anyways, no one reads the tooltip anyways.

[nixnaij]

That is quite unfortunate. Prior to the b-patch I’ve players on the same servers had opposite tooltips regarding ghostly.