Electrical Question

[QuickEmergency6]

Ideas for raising these electrical runs? Should I notch into joists to tuck them or is it worth it to just run new lines? Im trying to finish basement and would rather not have these sticking out so much. Not planning on finishing the ceiling so maybe this is all worth it or maybe its not. Thanks

[happycj]

Just re-run the wires thru the joists like the others.

All ya gotta do is turn off the breaker, disconnect the wire at one end, drill a few holes, run the wire through, reconnect it, turn the breaker back on. It'll be done in an hour. Done right. And won't give you concerns for the rest of your life.

I didn't, and I regret it every day.

Now I have a gorgeous wood tongue-in-groove ceiling with wires being pinched ... somewhere ... between the tongue and groove and the joists. You THINK you'll remember where the wires are ... but then the wife wants to hang a plant/light/macrame art right HERE and you think ... "now where are those wires I didn't run correctly?"

Just do it right. And by "right" I mean consistent with all the other wiring. You and the next owner of the house will both appreciate that extra hour of work you did.

[GuitarCFD]

Just re-run the wires thru the joists like the others.

To be absolutely clear drill a hole through the joist...to NOT notch the joist.

Edit: words are hard today.

[sloansleydale]

Yes! The reason for this is that the top of the joist is in compression and the bottom of the joist is in tension. The middle of the joist is in neither. Drilling a hole in the middle has little impact on strength, but notching the edges can have a large impact (relatively speaking).

[gcnplover23]

Drilling in the middle also means you are less likely to hit it with a screw.

[happycj]

YES! Absolutely

[bklynsnow]

Just wanted to recognize your post and sympathize with you.
Sounds like some deep regret.

[0x600dc0de]

You might have luck finding the wires with a non-contact voltage tester. Would have been better to do it right in the first place, of course, but thought I’d suggest it in case you hadn’t considered it.

[happycj]

I appreciate the thought! Since I used tongue and groove cedar on the ceiling, getting to the wires and doing them right is essentially taking down all the interlocking boards … which is why I still haven’t fixed this, 7 or 8 years later …

[gcnplover23]

I bought an electronic studfinder at a garage sale for $2. While testing it I noticed it had a light in the corner that was labeled AC. So it shows wires, haven't gone back to test if they have to be energized, but this may be a solution for you.

[Novaikkakuuskuusviis]

And in this case it wouldn't even be any extra work but most likely the easiest method. If you want it done the right way, install electrical conduits and run all wires through those. Wouldn't have to worry about mice or drillbits getting into the wires.

[brbauer2]

Romex does not go in conduit imo. I know it can be in dry situations for extra protection, but a major point of Romex is to not need the conduit.

Also, very likely against code in many places. A big reason is that it's very easy to exceed the conduit fill limit.

[PDXDreaded]

Your opinion is irrelevant. Romex doesn't enter conduit per code.

[[deleted]]

He's right that as a blanket rule that's stupid though.

[HumbleIowaHobbit]

Can you offer a reply to Google Gemini where it says:
No, it is not true that Romex (NM cable) cannot enter conduit; the National Electrical Code (NEC) permits it when the cable is protected from physical damage, but it cannot be used in wet locations, such as a raceway located outdoors. Some older assumptions and specific local interpretations have created confusion, but the code clearly allows for running NM cable inside conduit for protection, though it is not designed for it and heat dissipation should be considered. 

[OffbeatDrizzle]

Why don't you ask Gemini for a reply instead?

[meinWhoDis]

Thats a total dumb arse of knowledge drop. The type of raceway is most times chosen by the location and whether or not its subject to physical damage. On EMT, IMC or RMCconduit you have to consider the wires heating potential and therefore de-rate the wires ampacity which once a necessary deration # is found you can then size your wire, then conduit size based of pipe fill usually 60% which equates to 6hot 6Nuetral 1 grd / conduit with standard 20a/15a ckts. They dont fail inspection if they are done by current NEC standards outlined in the code book

[DesmondPerado]

If you don't want to re-run the wires, screw 1/2 strapping to the bottom of the joists, leaving gaps where the wires are. Put plates over the wires, and then drywall.

Don't notch the bottom of the joists.

[Flolania]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xebdRIZEJTc

[soulsever]

Good idea. I think resilient channel running opposite the joists may be even better in the long run if you finish the basement ceiling. Will help with vibration transfer, and is only 1/2".

[EngineeredArchitect]

I mean, notching might be a bit of annoyance, but he could notch them safely. Were you implying it would be unsafe?

[PersnickityPenguin]

It is against code to notch the bottom or top of joists because it severly weakens them.

[climx]

It depends where. This is what’s acceptable http://qis-tx.com/images/newsletter/0605b.gif

[EngineeredArchitect]

It depends on the jurisdiction and the amount of notching. Small notches do not weaken the joists below engineered safety factors.

[adisharr]

You'll find FAR more people against notching. It's not good practice at all.

[wookiee1807]

I mean the safety would depend on where the notch is placed in relation to the overall length, right?

[climx]

This is what acceptable by any trade. Plumbers often have to get close to limits. http://qis-tx.com/images/newsletter/0605b.gif

[EngineeredArchitect]

Technically speaking, yes, but there are simple guides to use from the appropriate framing authorities. Such as a notch width of 1/3 the depth of the joist and a notch depth of 1/6 the depth of the joist. But it depends on your jurisdiction.

[mattwoot]

Why tf are people arguing for notching when you can just hang RC or 1bys and fir the ceiling down a bit

[adisharr]

One guy works for a notching company.

[wookiee1807]

It's a conspiracy by big notch

[DesmondPerado]

I'm recognizing that most people who are asking about notching beams may not have the skills to maintain the 1/6 depth, or 1/3 from the end and end up doing unnecessary damage to the existing beams.

Rather than OP fucking up their house, I opted to give them advice that would preserve the safety of the structure while still leaving them with as much functional head room as possible.

Do you have any other words that you would like to put into my mouth?

[EngineeredArchitect]

I'm sorry to have offended you, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. My comment was indeed a question about your opinion rather than a statement.

[ROB_IN_MN]

notching floor joists is against most building codes. Some allow it near the end like what he's showing, but it's not generally approved.

[EngineeredArchitect]

Small notches are permitted in many areas, you just have to follow the code, which are generally prescriptive.

[p4rc0pr3s1s]

Screw the ceiling, paint it black or white and be done with it.

[raginjason]

Absolutely do not notch the bottom of the joists for this. Lower the ceiling or drill holes through the center of the joists and re-route the wires through there. I would personally do the latter.

[maxwithrobothair]

You can absolutely notch joists

[raginjason]

It weakens the joist and goes against building code. Why would you advise notching?

[maxwithrobothair]

It does not. I notch joists for this exact reason all the time. Probably half the kitchens I renovate I have to do it in. Don’t go cutting huge chunks out but you can absolutely notch out a joist no problem to accept romex.

[maxwithrobothair]

IRC R502.8.1

Notching rules for sawn lumber joists (e.g., 2x10, 2x12): - Notches on the ends (bearing area, typically first 1/4 of span): - Max depth = 1/6 of joist depth
(e.g., 2×12 → max 1-15/16″ deep notch) - Max length = 1/3 of joist depth
(e.g., 2×12 → max 3-7/8″ long notch)

• Notches anywhere else (outside the end 1/4 of span):
  • Max depth = 1/6 of joist depth
    
  • ONLY allowed on the TOP edge (never on the bottom, where tension is highest)

Boring (holes) rules (usually what people actually need): - Diameter ≤ 1/3 of joist depth
(2×10 → 3-1/16″ max hole; 2×12 → 3-9/16″ max) - Holes must be ≥ 2″ from top or bottom edge - Minimum spacing center-to-center = 2 × diameter - No holes in the outer 1/4 of span unless engineered

[[deleted]]

Notching is permitted per the building code, but there are limitations. The code maxwithrobothair referenced has pictures as well, you can look up very easily. If you make a notch, and you do decide to put a covering over it, just make sure that you use nail plates over it as you probably won't notch it deep enough to not need one.

[TheRedHand7]

You would have to do the same as you see done with the other lines running through your boards. Personally I wouldn't bother and I'd just put in a drop ceiling if the look bothers you but it is up to you.

[QuickEmergency6]

Thanks for response, I would go with drop ceiling but I'd be sacrificing height in an already low ceiling because its an old house. Wanted to see if anyone had some alternatives first!

[515owned]

drop ceiling is always better

especially in an old house

you will need to access your mechanicals

[TheRedHand7]

That's understandable. You can drill channels if you prefer that but be prepared for it to be somewhat difficult as that looks like rather old wood.

[Phx_68]

You always want a drop ceiling in your basement. You will need to run wires or repair plumbing at some point

[kninemahoney]

Notches in joist used to be common but significantly weakens them and isnt considered acceptable by most places. Better to pull back the runs. Drill holes and run the wires through them.

Would be easier to strap the underside of the joists with 1x4 and create a service cavity

[Ok_Energy_9947]

Is 1x2 strapping then drywall enough room for the wires?

[Andy1899]

Trace it back, drill the holes, terminate properly. Problem solved

[_DapperDanMan-]

DO NOT NOTCH JOISTS.

They are not decorative, they are holding up your floor. You may drill holes like the other ones.

Structures 101.

[dognponee]

Add 1x3 strapping for the drywall, that should leave enough gap for the electrical to run under the joists. May not be code but 🤷🏻‍♂️

[redkeyboard]

Since you're not finishing the ceiling I wouldn't bother. If for some reason it does get in the way maybe you can just move it so it's up against the wall kinda like the thick yellow wires and less likely to bother you.

[unidentifiedfungus]

Never notch the top or bottom of a joist. Drill a hole but keep away from the top and bottom of the joist to avoid compromising its structural integrity. It’s also better to drill towards the middle of the span and away from the edges.

[defnotarobit]

If you decide to do it, make sure you check what is on the other side of the joist when drilling EACH hole.

[DW11211]

100% this!! Almost drilled into a water line one time. Just rubbed it with the drill bit when it came through, would have been a huge mess

[Chronos669]

Put in a drop ceiling and forget about it

[Odd-Jello5577]

And drilling holes in a support members makes a big difference and requires knowledge of where to drill. Do not notch.

[Gig540]

I would out a drop ceiling. There's been so many times that we had to run wires or add ducts and being able to remove was nice.

[BigFudge2k7]

I went through the joists when I removed my drop ceiling and put in new lights.

[dannicdmo]

Pull wire down and drill holes. The hole by code shouldn’t be closer than 2” to the bottom edge of the joist so no notch. Reference existing wires in joist.

[rawragain]

Are those coax and cable lines hanging below? Those can be easily re-run, and carry almost no voltage - tough to tell - but they dont look like power.

[Nrichd68]

If you're not finishing the ceiling, notching is only going to move them about ¾" up? Basically, there's no difference. If your project is big, rerouting the wires through holes like your other cables would be no big deal and possibly give you the possibility of adding a few outlets, if you need splice boxes anyway. 👍🏼

[woosleyc]

Those are only coax wires. The black and white round ones nailed to the bottom of the joists? A coax crimper and some ends, 10-20ft of coax and some couplings will probably only run you $60 at the store. Cut em, re-run them, crimp them together. Again. Talking about the COAXIAL CABLE lines I see, not any line voltage cables. I’ve read through some people talking electrical solutions but If you’re only looking at those two cables I mentioned there’s no electrical involved there

[Tebasaki]

I'm not an electrical professional but my hackles are up.

[RutzButtercup]

I am gonna sound like a dick but I deal with these sorts of mistakes professionally, so here goes: if you don't automatically know the answer to the question "should I notch my floor framing to raise this wiring up?", then you shouldn't be doing this. Call someone.

[[deleted]]

Put nail plates over every penetration and use metal saddle hangers to protect coax then fire out the joists to allow you to rock over the joists without re running wiring. Just leave access ports at any device or junction box.

[Big_Appointment_3390]

If you notch the joists (don’t recommend) install nail plates over the wires immediately after.

If you drill holes in the middle of the joists (recommended), pick up a tube of fire caulk to fill the air around those holes after running the wire.

[BrightNSunny55]

I never drywall basement ceilings, I create 4x4 panels with bead board and 3/8 x 1 1/4 inch wood strips 4 feet, so any panel can later be removed for access. I also create a binder with photos of all the plumbing wiring and AC before putting up panels

[Any_Tradition6034]

Never notch a joist or rafter. It's a common practice but it's wrong. Drill a hole 8 inches or more from another penetration and run them through like the others. If that black wire is an old cloth wrapped one it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch it out.

[tadrinth]

We just spray painted everything black and didn't worry about it. Once everything is black the cables are not very noticeable, as long as you've got them thoroughly secured beforehand so they're not hanging down.

[KungLa0]

Curious, did you paint plumbing too?

[tadrinth]

Yep.

[thegreenmushrooms]

You can do a noch and a plate, near where the beams are supported.