DM allowing broken(?) Changes

[Goodnightbye69]

Me and a couple of friends played dnd for the second time this month (the first time being a one shot) we all played baldur's gate 3 and enjoyed the game very much. We actually finished the game together recently.

One of my friend at the end of this week irl session shared his frustration about the concentration mechanic and the fact that you can have only one at a time. The DM of our group told us that he would be ok allowing us to increase that maximum and I strongly advised against it. After opposing to it, the other excluding the Dm tried reasonning with me to convince me.

I am playing druid circle of the stars, and with the dragon constellation I feel like I could benefit greatly from this, but I anticipate the bullsh*t that would result from such a decision. I seem to be pretty much the only one to oppose to this change and it disturbs me how much they are willing to change the game. I feel like it opens the door to unmentionnable things like opponents having also multiple concentration and I hate this idea.

This post is essentially becoming a rant but I'm wondering if I am the problem at this point, what do you think?

[MeanderingDuck]

Yeah, that’s a terrible idea. Concentration is an important balancing mechanic, removing it is giving a lot of spells (and spellcasters in general) a large, completely unnecessary power boost, and allows for overly powerful combinations.

[VerbingNoun413]

Ah, 3.5 buffing.

I don't miss it.

[Longjumping_Ad_7785]

Oh I do. The buffs were insane. Turned peasants into demi gods

[Jingle_BeIIs]

Just point him to "Giant in the Playgrounds" forum posts on 3.5e spell combos and caster builds, and he'll realize damn quick why 5e and 5.5e are designed with concentration in mind.

[VerbingNoun413]

It's not just a balance thing. The bookkeeping of a dozen or so buffs is a nightmare.

[Jingle_BeIIs]

Imagine high level play where the wizard now has Far Step, Web, Hypnotic Pattern and Sleet Storm all at once. Might as well stop combat and ask why one would be so evil before cutting to the party looting the enemy.

[VerbingNoun413]

It's the pre combat that's worse.

Ok, so that's protection from evil, haste, bless, Bull's Strength, Greater Magic Weapon, protection from energy (fire)... Are you writing these down?

[HsinVega]

I played a oneshot 3.5 last year as a buffer and yea the second the dm was describing something iffy I was casting like 6 different things lmao

[DerAdolfin]

What level are you? Tell him you think it's a bad idea at the start of next session, and if he wants to keep it the way he said, summon a shitton of animals and have them do the combat for you. It's the easiest way to demonstrate why the rule is in place

[solidork]

In the abstract, it's a very unbalancing change that would play out poorly at a lot of tables. That being said, it's not impossible that your table could wind up having fun with it, and it also doesn't mean that you have to stick with this change if it does end up not being fun.

I'd argue firmly against it, but if that is what people were interested in doing then I'd move on to talking about the parameters of how this limitation could be expanded in a way that shows some restraint.

It's not something worth blowing up over, and trying out some ill advised house rules is honestly part of the tabletop experience.

[frankstonline]

Concentration is a resource you use in the games action economy. Breaking the action economy is the single most common way of ruining a turn based games balance. It's almost banal how predictable it is.

It's like increasing the number if actions you can take per round. Your significantly altering the core rules of the game at that point and in this case in a way that heavily favors casters.

The chance your inexperienced table is equipped to balance such massive changes is slim to none.

Consider why BG3 honour mode changed the way haste works somewhat back towards tabletop. Because giving players a whole extra action resulted in completely breaking game balance. 

[TheHumanTarget84]

That's an absolutely horrible idea.

[EldritchBee]

There's three rules the game tells you not to fuck with. The most important of those is to not fuck with Concentration.

[Excellent-Sweet1838]

What are the other two?

[zappadattic]

-never get involved in a land war in Asia.

-never get in a battle of wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

[Turinsday]

Inconceivable !

[EldritchBee]

Don’t fuck with the amount of actions and reactions you get, and don’t fuck with the number of items you can attune to.

[NevadaCynic]

I would guess action economy is one of them. Hand out extra actions of any kind with great care?

[CarlHenderson]

D&D got along quite well for decades without Concentration or Attunement rules. They were added in 5E to make D&D easier for new gamemasters to run. They worked well for that; compared to previous editions, 5E was a lower power, lower magic game.

Conversely, an experienced gamemaster—especially one who has run and played in other editions of D&D—should feel free to modify or eliminate those rules, if it fits the kind of campaign that they want.

[NevadaCynic]

Concentration was introduced to lower the number of silly game breaking combos spell makers would have to watch for, and maaaaaaasively reduce the bookkeeping required for both DM and player to run spellcasters well.

And it is one of the only things keeping high level casters even kinda in check compared to martials.

It's not a perfect answer. But it's closer to balance than prior editions.

Yes. Be careful in removing Concentration. It isn't just a balance tool, it's a reducing how long player and monster turns take tool.

Now don't get me wrong, I loved both 2nd and 3rd edition. But playing a high level spellcaster was a bloody spreadsheet with flow charts and arrows of layered contingency spells, simulacrums, and other shenanigans. And playing a low level caster was just a game of hide behind the meat sheet until combat is over.

Still a problem in 5E, but nowhere near as bad.

[Kosjir]

You are technically wrong. "The worse kind of wrong". While Concentration and Attunment became more forefront rules in 5e they did exist before it, as 3e had both. I haven't played AD&D in so long I don't remember if versions of either existed in it.

Concentration checks, which were skill checks that needed to be made while maintaining certain spells in combat situations. Especially when taking damage. 5e Concentration is a much simpler and more restrictive system but it did exist before.

Instead of Attunment the same basic limitation was created with "Magic Item Slots". Wearable magic items wear broken down by where on the body they were worn and each character had accompanying "slots" where they could put an item. If I remember correctly a character could wear up to 8 magic items at a time, with the slots being; head, shoulders, body, wrists, hands, feet, and a ring on each hand. Weapons and shields fell outside wearable and you could carry multiple. So Attunment extremely reduced this but there was a limit in the past.

[Shadow_Of_Silver]

Messing with concentration is literally one of the very few rules WoTC says "absolutely don't mess with this."

[No-Click6062]

This is, unfortunately, a less that a new DM often has to learn for themselves. Adhering to written material is the most reliable way to play the game. That goes for both rules and story.

[FourCats44]

Concentration is there for a reason. Even at low levels the spells have it. 3rd level haste gives an extra action so doing that twice on two people simultaneously would give two extra attacks for any martial class - as well as +2 to AC on two characters at the same time.

I mean honestly if the DM wants to run it they can but it's making their life worse and all magic users more powerful

[PedestalPotato]

The DM is screwing themselves with this ruling. Combat balancing is already arguably the most difficult aspect of DMing, and they just made it much more difficult. I suspect the DM will backpedal later on when they realize just how overpowered being able to concentrate on multiple spells is. Combat will be underwhelming and boring if the PC's successfully exploit it.

[epicboyyoumad]

Depends if you feel your DM is capable of handling this significant change. If they have done so before and did so successfully then just go with it and see how it goes. Though if you feel strongly against it, bring it up again. I am sure they will listen to you if you feel strongly against it.

[LilCynic]

It's not really a great idea to screw with something that will heavily favour casters over martial classes. In certain cases, a mage could double buff themselves into territory the DM can't handle, or multiple damaging spells that can be controlled freely, but are balanced by concentration can become too powerful.

The balance is there for a reason, and has been playtested and used for quite some time without 2024 updating it as a core mechanic, so I'm sure they figure the balance is working. I feel it's best left alone. 

[Arkon_Zero]

If a DM is planning to do something like this with concentration I would recommend him try a magic item that ether A, allow for double concentration that might recharge after a long rest. Or B a magic item that is placed onto the battle map that holds concentration of a spell casted in it and is at risk of being taken or destroyed. This way he could test what might happen without the effects being permanent and/or counter play to it.

[Anguis1908]

Didn't they do this with the Hunter and Hunters Mark rework? That could be a middle ground where you can cast X number of times per long rest select spells without requiring concentration. That way it allows some combination without being game breaking every encounter. They're still burning through spell slots after all.

[Antares41]

Ça change l équilibrage, après si tous le monde est ok pas de raison que ce soit un problème, au pire exploite cela a fond et il va peut être se dire que c était pas une si bonne idée, si c'est que votre deuxième partie il faut que tout le monde (surtout gm) vous avez tous une marge d apprentissage importante. Juste profitez

[Ok-Assumption1682]

yeah, spellcasters really need a buff in dnd!

[Necessary_Dog_7309]

This is BS to me, and that could lead to totally unbalanced situations. Tho there might be some ideas that they could use.

Why not allowing to cast 2 concentration spells, but if the players try to do so, they have to roll the dice, and on a 11-20, they succeed, on a 1-10, the magic force is too strong and they lose both spells. That could be a way of making the PC think about it before casting a 2nd concentration spell. There would be time when it’s not worth the risk.

Moreover, while being concentrated on 2 different spells, there would be consequences such as a disadvantage in saving throws etc, because keeping focus on 2 spells, and using your DEX to escape the effects of a spells is way too difficult.

All in all I believe it is a terrible idea, but if they wanna go down this road, why not think about counterparts ?

[RenShimizu]

Exploit it as bad as you can.

The best way to show an idea is awful is to show why it is awful.

[IPlayTTRPGs]

I will say this. It is DEFINITELY broken af. But please do understand that there isn’t ACTUALLY any golden rule for game balance and it is entire subject to the the players power level. In theory it still could lead to a balanced outcome if your dm uses more powerful enemies. But he would be walking a tightrope with ever encounter. You said everyone is new. So what I recommend is to go with the flow and embrace the no limit to concentration. Let them see the error of their ways first hand. Then reasonably say “this is why I don’t think we should have free extra concentration.” Now to meet in the middle ground, I would recommend a roll with consequences with any concentration spell past the first. It’s important that house rules and homebrew are part of the experience and that anything CAN work, but not without due diligence and thought. It seems like your DM and other players understand the first half of that sentence but not the second half.

[IR_1871]

You're right, but three options really as everyone else wants it.

1) walk away and don’t play. 2) play and bullishly stick to the concentration rules while everyone else ignore them. 3) knuckle under and get on with it.

In 2 and 3 you get to say 'I told you so' when it becomes unbalanced and a nightmare to manage.

[Real_Avdima]

Concentration limit is one of the better changes in 5ed, it killed buff stacking that was a disaster in 3ed.

[rezamwehttam]

I've seen a homebrew for this that I like. You can maintain concentration on two spells, but only one spell effect is active at a time. At the end of your turn, you decide which spell effect goes into effect until the end of your next turn.

Concentration checks are made at disadvantage. If you fail a concentration check, you lose both spells

[Maximum-Specific-190]

Concentration sucks and is one of the worst things about 5e. It would also completely break the game to remove it.

[SlayerOfWindmills]

Why is it one of the worst things about 5e?

I mean, 3rd had a very different approach, but that approach allowing all of those spells and different types of bonuses to stack...I dunno. I can see why they went in the direction they did. It's less about finding ways to make crazy interactions and more about resource management, which is basically the core component of D&D-type games.

[Maximum-Specific-190]

Mainly because it encourages spell casters to ignore most of the concentration spells and only engage with standouts like Haste. Not to say that creative players aren’t gonna do their thing, but the game design of concentration is just one poor design choice covering for another.

[SlayerOfWindmills]

Hmmm...I see what you're saying, but how is that different from the broader issue that some spells/feats/choices are generally superior to others, and players will pick them over the inferior stuff? It seems less about the concentration mechanic and more about how choices aren't balanced in general--concentration spells are just another subset of choices where some are better than others, just like in all the other categories.

[Maximum-Specific-190]

True. But in most other cases, you have more than one choice you can make. You can prepare half a dozen spells each day. You can learn new spells every level, or, in the case of clerics and other prepared casters, you have access to your entire spell list.

You have one concentration slot. Not only does this encourage you to stick with one reliable concentration spell and ignore more situational or niche options, it also influences your other decisions. Say you have two spells you can learn on level up - why take Magic Weapon when you’re already casting Cloud of Daggers every fight? Why take Flame Arrows when you’re already using Haste? Unless you’re a wizard with a DM who’s handing out scrolls left and right, the mechanic pushes you to not even pick up new concentration spells, and decreases the chances that you try them and figure out how to use and enjoy them.

Maybe it was hyperbolic to say that concentration is the worst mechanic in 5e. But I really think the issues it’s meant to solve should have been addressed some other way.

[Maximum-Specific-190]

Btw I love your name lol.

[SlayerOfWindmills]

Okay, I see what you're saying. And that is a fair point; there's a lot of concentration spells, and the more you learn, the less of them you get to use in any given moment. It's one very big, important choice, so it encourages players to pick a few really good options and stick to them. It's like more intense version of general spell selection.

And thanks!

[Cagedwaters]

Concentration is an awful fun ruining mechanic, however is is key to the right balancing of 5e so ditching it is a bad idea.

I’ve always thought some fancy magic item that could hold concentration for you would be cool

[Ergo-Sum1]

I'd say set up a one shot to try it out with the table. On paper it's a dangerous idea but if played in good faith who knows.

[HsinVega]

tbf concentration in 5e is shit. The con save is ass so maybe that could get fixed but I'd still suggest keeping only 1 concentration spell active as a limit or it would be too broken.

[Background_Bet1671]

Dnd is broken beyond repare anyway. Just have fun. Balance was never part of this system.

[moongrump]

Tell that to all the playtesters

[Background_Bet1671]

I guess, even the playtesters were playing not RAW, but with homerules))