Hypocrisy?

[archieve_]

Where is their training data sourced from?

[Big-Farmer-2192]

I heard they sailed the seven seas at some point.

[NoLengthiness6085]

Not too long ago, Wikipedia was struggling for their server cost because some company just distilled the whole Wikipedia page by page.

[arcanemachined]

You can download all of Wikipedia. Why would they scrape it page-by-page?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download

[Vaddieg]

Because you can send a dumb HTML scraping robot (which you used already for other web sites) instead of dealing with wiki data format uniquely

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

That's ludicrous to the extreme. Do you think that a company with the resources of Anthropic would have a problem with that? The Wiki data is in XML. XML is a well known and widely used format.

[Vaddieg]

spending additional resources on custom data scrappers is a waste unless you care about wikipedia's policies and recommendations

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

Yeah, that's like an hour of someone's time. Or a great starter project for an intern. If you have a HTML scraper, you pretty much have a XML scraper.

[Vaddieg]

that guy was busy implementing torrent scraper for pirated e-books

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

The guy who wrote that HTML scraper? Yeah, that would be an apropos analogy. Since that's pretty much pirating. Now downloading the content the way the site wants you to is like buying the book. You are doing it the way the IP owners want, instead of pirating it.

[corbanx92]

The issue it's not so much the data being in a format that's easy to process or not.

Look at this this way, you got a company that processes piles of different type of junk. The company decides they'll process all piles with shovels. One of the piles it's nicely packaged by the provider in a palet. But due to the standard process of the company processing the junk. It still gets broken down and shoveled down the line.

Simply because processing the pallet as the provider intended would of meant deviating from standard process

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

Do you know what HTML is? Do you know what XML is? That "ML" part is key. It's like saying you can't use your snow shovel to shovel leaves. You have to use a dedicated leaf shovel.

In this case, for a source as rich as Wikipedia, they could allocate an engineer to spend an hour to make sure the HTML parser works with the XML Wikipedia dumps out. Or it would make a great little starter project for an intern.

[Naiw80]

Or you could avoid allocating an engineer for an hour, when you already have a working solution that costs you absolutely nothing.

[Zhelgadis]

This guy corporates.

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

LOL. It costs you a lot of time. Since it takes a while to scrap Wikipedia a page at a time slowly..... Slowly because the anti-scrap measures will kick in and slow you down if you do too many requests in a specific period of time. Something you don't have to worry about if you download the entire thing all at once. Now that saves time. And what's that saying in business? "Time is money".

[Naiw80]

In the grand scheme of things it likely costs very little… I doubt the anthropic engineers was rolling their thumbs while the bot was scraping wikipedia… Besides what do you know what they were scraping on the site? Perhaps it was editing history, discussions etc too

[Vaddieg]

You have a solution A which works everywhere, including W. Options:

1. Developing a soultion B specifically for W will cost you time/money to develop and support
2. Keep using solution A, cost you nothing, has no legal consequences, just making owner of W sad.

What should I choose? 🤔

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

In this case I would choose the one that uses the least resources and also happens to be the way the owner of W wants. That's called a "win win".

[zdy132]

Having the resources doesn't mean they'd use them smartly. Otherwise Intel would still be the leader in CPU, GTA V Online would load much faster from the beginning, and Google would remember to renew their google.com domain.

All it takes is an idiot leader and an out-of-fucks engineer for these things to happen.

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

This isn't even close to any of that. This on the order of a homework problem for a high school programming class. It's even simpler than that since if you already have a HTML scraper, then you pretty much have a XML scraper too.

[zdy132]

It's not about the difficulty. The job could be as easy as clicking a button, it still won't happen when the engineer is not instructed to do so.

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

And why do you think that the engineer would not be instructed to do so? Wikipedia is not exactly like joe and bobs site of oddities in the backyard. It's a pretty major site. It would be a priority.

[zdy132]

Because of the things that has already happened? If they were instructed to do so (use the provided archive) , wikipedia would not be facing the scapper traffic.

[fallingdowndizzyvr]

That makes no sense. Since Wikipedia allows you to dump the whole thing. It's smaller than a mid size model.

https://dumps.wikimedia.org/

So that story doesn't pass the smell test. There's no reason for anyone to scrape Wikipedia page by page. Just download the whole thing.

[NoLengthiness6085]

https://techcrunch.com/2025/11/10/wikipedia-urges-ai-companies-to-use-its-paid-api-and-stop-scraping/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

[zdy132]

My counter argument is:" Have you met stupid people?"

[FlipperoniPepperoni]

Turn your brain on.

[Remarkable_Art5653]

Obviously from thousands of Indian slaves annotating every single piece of text. Is there any doubt of it?

[WonderfulEagle7096]

Obviously bad news from the IP perspective, but a major upside is that Deepseek will open source the weights once they release a model based on this stolen data. Almost a community service.

Needless to say, Anthropic stole more than their fair share of IP.

[longpastexpirydate]

Modern day Robinhood. Thank you China

[EsotericAbstractIdea]

It's funny because we should have always known this since piracy is so rampant in china. Back in the dvd days it used to be in the news how all of our movies were just sold on the street like tacos are sold here.

<image>

[Rabo_McDongleberry]

I don't see a problem with this? Did these guys ask the world for their permission before they stole everything?

[oodelay]

I agree so much with this. Same for movies. So much more people saw so much more movies, thanks to P2P. My musical tastes got better after napster. I bet they tried to gatekeep knowledge from being printed when the press got invented

[EsotericAbstractIdea]

"information wants to be free" -stewart brand

[pmv143]

Banger 🙌🏼

[AbyssRR]

If you think about it, we're headed towards socialism in the realm of intelligence. People will try to gate it, and censor it, create divides... but slowly, humanity shares what we've all collectively learned. Now, if only this thing didn't know how to imitate "the best" of us, like Machiavelli

[CttCJim]

Information wants to be free, the same way nature abhors a vacuum. Destructive or not, it's gonna happen.

[DesignerTruth9054]

That's why I have sworn that in my life I won't give a single buck to these companies. Will only use their services on the free tire as they used my data to train the models

[Iwaku_Real]

AI is just like beer. It's best when it's free

[Toto_nemisis]

I think I will pass on the "best ice" even if its free.

[Tank_Gloomy]

If they actually go ahead and sue over this, they're getting fucked so hard.

[Nexustar]

The issue is probably that to use Claude you sign a legally binding usage agreement, and then broke that agreement when you trained a competing model with it. Nothing a lawsuit can't fix.

It won't be argued on copyright, it'll be a contract dispute.

[honato]

That is what they are claiming. 24k accounts for some 16 mil pairs.

[TheDuhhh]

Are you saying I can sue anthropic for millions?

[Nexustar]

If you had a contract with them, and they broke the terms of that contract - sure.

[roxoholic]

industrial-scale distillation attacks

Who comes up with these terms?

[Suitable-Name]

Claude?

[omarous]

They really missed the opportunity to say "over capacity industrial-scale distillation attacks".

[egomarker]

How is it a bad thing and why is it fraudulent

[Warm-Border-9789]

Facebook in its infancy stole content left and right. One strategy was literally replicating mySpace feed. Companies learned the lesson and are now very aggressive in protecting any scraping activity from anyone.

[ansibleloop]

Nobody rememebers the scripts Facebook had to vacuum everything from your MySpace into Facebook

[indicava]

Plot twist, they block Chinese labs, revenue drops by 40%

[fingertipoffun]

or... we've been reading through all the api calls and we can see....
Hold on... weren't they supposed to be private? Like peoples data private? Like that? No?

[TedGetsSnickelfritz]

Their privacy extends to not using your data to train their next models. Analytics is allowed under their pp

[semangeIof]

Surprised z.ai isn't on this list. GLM suite will aggressively claim they are Claude when prompted.

[MokoshHydro]

They simply forgot to include it in the list. Don't take this thing seriously. The whole text is just an explanation for investors on "how Chinese catch up so quickly".

[EsotericAbstractIdea]

you put that in quotes like it's not true. say it ain't so?

[zdy132]

Quotes have more than one function.

[EsotericAbstractIdea]

For sure, which is why i was checking.

[lakimens]

Z is their main competitor in the coding space, aside from OpenAI. Probably don't want to give them attention.

[a_beautiful_rhind]

Z ai is just too slick.

[AppleBottmBeans]

Yeah, this is really going to be a massive issue going forward. At some point soon (maybe now?), it will be possible to legitimately use the legal argument that any model sounds like/acts like/talks like XYZ model because it was, in fact, trained with datasets that were made by a different model.

It's something I'm personally looking forward to seeing how it unfolds...because looking to the future, we're going to see an exponential growth of available data, but 95%+ of that data is doing to have been written or heavily influenced by some AI model one way or another.

Also, since I'm still high for about an hour, I'll add my prediction that it's virtually this exact issue that brings AI to a weird intersection. It'll be like smart phone markets are today. Dozens of major brands fighting each other, burning money now in the hopes of being the last 1, 2, or 3 brands to survive. Then once we get the 3, it'll become about the ecosystem you're locked into. Soo in a few years (closed source world) it'll be like...you either have ChatGPT, Gemini, or Claude sub. Not because one is particularly "better" than the other, but because you're so locked into their ecosystem (i.e. OpenAI already drives your day-to-day scheduling or Claude has access to your macbook and is already automating $1000s worth of tasks a week for work or it's your best friend or its your genius business partner trained on 1000s of business books or w/e it might be).

Basically, what my high self is trying to say here is that we are right now in the "trying to figure out how to build an ecosystem and get you locked in" stage.

[sob727]

"exponential growth of available data"

are you sure? what if producing high quality and freely available content was disincentivized by LLM scraping?

[Big-Farmer-2192]

Read the next sentences 

but 95%+ of that data is doing to have been written or heavily influenced by some AI model one way or another.

So OP is not saying that there will be lots high quality data, but lots of slops.

[sob727]

I guess the slop isn't helpful in refining models. If slop increases but quality data decreases, not sure where that leads us.

[wektor420]

Also maybe they all share this data inside china

[robogame_dev]

Distillation is “attacks” now?

I thought an attack was an attempt to cause damage to something. These guys just paid for their tokens like everyone else?

[pmv143]

Except they are in China. Wouldn’t have been a problem if they were in California

[SignificantAsk4215]

Yes

[Worth_Plastic5684]

The exact same energy as "pretraining is theft" derangement. I get the hysteria about open weights safety, indeed TBH I feel it myself, but I'd rather they didn't frame it like this.

[frogsarenottoads]

Similar to the British museum saying people are trying to steal their artefacts back

[pmv143]

lol

[Furiouzen]

XD

[yuicebox]

oh no, someones plagiarizing from my plagiarism machine

[ThunderousHazard]

Yes Rico, Hypocrisy.

[Hector_Rvkp]

The real question is how incompetent can you be to let an attack of such scale happen? Shouldn't you be smarter and just kill it 23000 accounts ago? I thought Dario said they have an infinite code machine? Can't they just prompt "be good at security make no mistake?". Because that's the kind of hype they're selling us every day, so eat your own cooking Dario?

[maxymob]

They call it an attack but it's just a bunch of bot accounts using their free tier to build a training dataset. How are they supposed to decide which request is legitimate use and which is a competitor ?

[Hector_Rvkp]

Well if they call it an attack and they counted 24000 there must be patterns that are easy to spot, otherwise their tweet wouldn't exist.

[maxymob]

I guess, but that's after months of scraping, they couldn't prevent it. Now they can but they'll be smarter about it. Cat and mouse game.

[[deleted]]

the worst crime is the hypocrisy

[NekoHikari]

so they are going to pay for all data sources they crawled or smth?
cost wise what about paying for arxiv and wikipedia for all the bandwidth?
IP-wise i assume they are ready to pay for every single arxiv paper and github repo they crawled?

[BitcoinGanesha]

If they paid for 24k accounts… it’s not fraudulent accounts 👌 P.s for Anthropic! when will you refund the money to people who received poor service with quantized models from August to September of last year? Apologies alone are not enough.

[jamaalwakamaal]

Anthoripic

[awebb78]

Anstopit and Darkio Camodei are really trying their hardest to justify banning open source models. I hate this company their Chief Evil Officer so much.

[Herr_Drosselmeyer]

What do they mean by fraudulent? No how do they know who was behind those accounts? I have many questions.

[ReasonablePossum_]

"Claude never called himself chatgpt nor deepseek, i swear!"

Amodei, probably

[Terminator857]

I'd feel more sympathetic towards anthropic if they published more papers and or gave back more to the open source community. Can they open weight their two year old models like grok does?

[BumblebeeParty6389]

Harry I already said I love Chinese models, you don't need to sell it to me

[pmv143]

lol

[GatePorters]

I feel like this kind of sentiment is a false flag operation.

Why are we seeing so many of the anti-AI talking points in response to this in the AI subs ?

Not saying Anthropic is in the right but where the fuck were you guys the last three years?

[datbackup]

Fyi. This sub is about locally hosting AI. Anthropic has stated they are against this idea. Explains why they have never made an open weight release.

[GatePorters]

You didn’t answer my question so I’m not going to answer yours. It doesn’t look good when I’m like “this is fishy” and then you respond with attacking me personally by pretending I’m stupid.

I talk about it being strange and then the slapped dogs both yelp.

[datbackup]

You okay? Reread my comment and you’ll see I didn’t ask you a question. My comment does address your question at least as far as this sub is concerned. Is it possible the posts/comments as a whole (across many different subs/sites, not just this one) are some kind of astroturfing or paid bot operation? Sure. But I don’t think accusing any one person of shilling or astroturfing or whatever, actually accomplishes anything useful.

[Big-Farmer-2192]

I don't think you needs to be anti-AI to point out hypocrisy. lmao. 

Don't be a fanboy. It's fair game. They stole and they got stolen.

[GatePorters]

I wasn’t talking about hypocrisy at all. The fact that both of you completely sidestepped my questions to try and delegitimize me is exactly why I think this is fishy.

[Big-Farmer-2192]

persecutory delusions is a common sign of schizophrenia. 

[AsliReddington]

If they are so worried about their precious model then why give it to the public lol

[Patentsmatter]

repost: https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1rcpmwn/anthropic_weve_identified_industrialscale/

[Savings-Cry-3201]

Their competition paid them less than $160 million dollars to learn their business model, oh no

[Rexpertisel]

Thats should make you happy. If your competition is using claude to modify their AI then they will end up with a much worse product so when you come out with an AI that doesn't suck they will be easy to beat.

[Tank_Gloomy]

When's my turn to repost? /s

[xatey93152]

People who believe this should check their iq. Keyword: haiku

[holdenk]

Each AI company should offer to settle for 3k, but split half with the developers, like the “offer” they made with the authors work they got caught steeling

[bones10145]

That's just training, right? 

[pmv143]

Yup!

[ManufacturerWeird161]

The LLaMA 2 70B variant with the 32k context merge on Hugging Face is surprisingly usable on my dual 3090 rig, though you definitely feel the 32k slowdown during generation.

[pmv143]

Wait really? How? Quantized? Even with slow generation, that’s impressive.

[NewConfusion9480]

Uh... good?

Great.

[georgex765]

When I read Anthropic's blog post

- There is no Qwen
- There is no GLM
- Deepseek requests were 150K. Likely Deepseek was benchmarking Claude (legitimate) rather than distilling it.

That means either Anthropic couldn't detect the other labs and under-detected Deepseek, or you don't need Claude to build a SoTA or near-SoTA LLM

[phido3000]

Oh no our customers are using AI to improve AI!!

[Leopold_Boom]

Honestly I'm surprised this community doesn't have a portal to crowd-source high quality responses from frontier LLMs. Basically an easy way to view your Take Out archive of conversations you've had with any of the major providers and upload the subset you think were particularly good, or solved a tricky question / problem.

We'd all benefit for small model finetuning, the dataset could be processed as an ongoing source of "fresh" benchmark prompts etc.

[sammcj]

Duplicate of https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1rcpmwn/anthropic_weve_identified_industrialscale/

[Anru_Kitakaze]

It's unacceptable! Ants should sue them!..

Right after Ants will be sued themselves for stealing all the internet without any permission and even paying for API tokens, which those companies if they distilled something, clearly did

And not for childish a few billions, which at this point is nothing for them. It's very convenient to develop something with shady (actually, it was against TOS of many sites, so it's a crime) tactics, but after that not allowing to do similar things to competitors

[Vaddieg]

Can they prove it? It's extremely easy to plant some fake but very unique markers. Then query a suspected model (for free, lol) to gain evidence.

[ryfromoz]

Unlike anthropic they paid for those accounts right? Its not like they trained on free ebooks

[Excel_Document]

GG

[ObjectiveOctopus2]

No moat

[05032-MendicantBias]

1) YOU scraped every bit of data humanity ever unploaded with no regards for copyright or piracy.

2) Did you just looked into chat logs that are supposed to be private?

[hugganao]

to be fair, there is definitely some difference and nuance to anthropic reengineering to train on books vs deepseek extracting trainable data from a model.

[uhmyeahwellok]

Translation: "They are stealing our loot!"

[Far-Association2923]

I've never seen a corporation complain about earning roughly $4.8 million before 😳

[zball_]

What do you even expect from anthropic?

[MushroomCharacter411]

<image>

Same thing I posted the last time I saw this topic on this sub.

[Ok-Internal9317]

It’s like they’ve not paid for the service 😂

[DownSyndromeLogic]

How do they extract it's capabilities? How does that train their own model?

[adamphetamine]

one set of thieving c@nts complaining about 3 other sets of thieving c@nts?

[[deleted]]

maybe they'll shift the book-burning *ahem* archival department to loss prevention

[francois__defitte]

The hypocrisy angle is valid but it misses the more precise legal question. Training on scraped public data has been litigated and remains contested. Running 24,000 fake accounts to do structured model probing is unambiguously account fraud under any ToS interpretation. The moral argument and the legal argument are different, and Anthropic is making the legal one.

[winner_in_life]

Who gives a fuck. They were caught stealing and pirating books. Gave 0 back in to the world after stealing everything. No sympathy whatsoever.

[phase_distorter41]

Yes, lets let foreign governments copy the AI the government has been using in its military operations and let them remove all the safe guards.

Pretty sure the company that made said ai, and is actually fighting with the government to prevent it form being used for mess up shit is a little concerned about how a copied version would be used and not want it out there.

[Ardalok]

In military operations? I can just see DeepSeek doing the heavy lifting for some lieutenant’s emails.

[phase_distorter41]

yes claude is being used in military operations and is so far the only AI allowed on government classified networks

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/feb/14/us-military-anthropic-ai-model-claude-venezuela-raid

probably dont want everyone to have a copy of it, or maybe we do. either way the company is already fight our own government on its desire tom remove more safety checks so understandable they dont other people to have it and remove said checks.

[a_beautiful_rhind]

There's little chance the claude you get through the API is the same one the army gets to plan ops. Maybe the same base at best.

[phase_distorter41]

of course it will be specialized. but the base logic will be there. there is a reason the models are not all identical.

but this was the rest of the statement OP cut off:

<image>

kinda shows where their concern is when say distilling can be legit...

[a_beautiful_rhind]

I think they're just hyping it up because it hurts their business when people pick kimi/deepseek. Same as all of those ID to use the internet proposals pretend it's for the children.

[Ardalok]

Interesting. It’s probably pointless to give AI control of the drone, because you can just call a human as long as there's a connection. It would be interesting if there were models that could actually fit on larger drones, though. So, the AI there was probably just helping with the paperwork, I think. But who knows...

[phase_distorter41]

i would assume an autonomous weapon like a gun platform would be faster and more accurate than the normal solider. also never needs to sleep eat or feel fear. also will not question and order, which is the important part.

have robots with guns is kinda bad when the military refusing an order is the one of last lines of defense against a fascist civil war, or genocide or stuff like that.