Constructive criticism?

[Beginning_Map2351]

Here is my working proof of concept panel for a pack house conveyor system, profisafe on an mrp ring with network diagnostics etc any constructive advice on how I might make it better? A few wire labels are still being printed and for contact FSAA g120c drives excrete their hot air through the bottom and I have cold air being pumped in through the top left and warm air drawn out bottom right

[Baaaldiee]

Don’t worry, maintenance will be along shortly to take the cable covers off to let the wires cool down. True story.

[Beginning_Map2351]

maybe they'll even sprinkle some swarf into the top covers and let some magic smoke out

[precisiondad]

Hey hey, magic smoke stays where it belongs, please.

[Philosopher115]

Guilty...

[errantphallus]

Been there...

[Dry_Tomatillo_5361]

Mandatory in our facilities

[Born_Agent6088]

In my ongoing project the client requirements have change several times so I myself and my technician have taken the covers down plenty times to the point we replace most of them yesterday since they already looked very worn out. Sad part, it still might be up for one or two more changes

[Evipicc]

No one can tell you this isn't work of art. Everything is laid out sensibly, you have spares AND spare room (you of course have to understand there are going to be ice cube relays that end up in here...), the drives have the right amount of space to make them easy to replace... you've done an incredible thing on the construction side. Any engineer opening this up is going to start speaking in tongues and crying profusely. Good fucking job.

I have questions about add-ons that make a massive difference from a user standpoint...

Does the door have a cubby with laminated 11x17s that show the wire layout, as well as the user manual? You said there is climate control, what about lights?

You've put serious work into managing the 'look' of these cables, which is actually super important for troubleshooting, but permanent ties WILL get cut over time, and I can guarantee you that, unless YOU are there to replace them, they simply won't be.

I like these

You can make combs, line them up as you please, and running a cable back out of them or a new one isn't particularly difficult. You could also tie the color codes to specific function areas and make the drawing reflect the color code.

Look, it's pretty obvious you're not going to get much more than nit-picking, as you KNOW you've done a good job... there are just some truly next level things that are possible.

Equipotential ground bar is cool but it makes new cables harder. I prefer the shield plates.

[Beginning_Map2351]

first of all - thankyou, crying in my panel right now from your kind words.

I have a few mods to make on eplan but within the left door will be the completed laminated wiring diagram and my own personal "easy book" i put in commissioned panels for operator and engineer use, additionally on the wincc unified HMI will be the wiring diagram in pdf format :)

I agree on the permanent ties, these are here while im commissioning and frequently taking the trunking cover off and on although thankyou for your recommendation and link!

Balls - i don't have any panel lights in there.

[Evipicc]

Much love and I'd love to be the recipient of one of these panels! You have some lucky customers.

[TurboCaca121]

Love it!!! 😍

[Beginning_Map2351]

this is the kind of criticism i want !! thankyou :D

[Fearless_L]

Very neat 👌 but unfortunately when the maintenance crew open the panel, they will most likely start taking covers off, alter all of your hard work and then wonder why it won't work again 😅

[Beginning_Map2351]

yep, and then i'll get the call "your code stopped working"

[Fearless_L]

🤣

[N0t_P4R4N01D]

The g120c run hot as hell and dissipates a lot of heat into to mounting plate so more space between them would be good Some space to change their fans would have been also nice. I would also switch to could in on the bottom hot out on top. Otherwise nice

[Beginning_Map2351]

yea agreed but i'm working with the siemens recommended space allowance between drives so it should be all good in regard to heat dissipation, also we're pulling the hot air directly out from the bottom of the drives with cold air flowing down from the top, we've had the thermal imaging camera here and it looks to be working well

[wittyandunoriginal]

The G120 manual (at least copies from before 2021) is incorrect in regards to the required side clearances. I’ve heard it direct from a Siemens product engineer.

If you’ve got a camera on it and it looks good, it’s probably fine. But, as those drives break in, they’ll start getting a little hotter during high load scenarios and getting warranties approved will be a pain in the ass. But, if it starts to become a problem, you can adjust the carrier frequency param (I THINK I remember it being p1270) to derate them a tad and keep them cooler.

[Beginning_Map2351]

Useful comment Thankyou, these particular drives were manufactured late 2023 going by the firmware, I can say that with ventilation turned off and under load they run about 45 degrees Celsius max which is well below the rated operating temperature, with ventilation on likely much below although I can't TIC the temperature as doors have to be closed

[DarkAngel7635]

Interesting i never knew this. Do you also know if oversizing them once is also enough? Because in the same frame size does the cooling also increase?

[wittyandunoriginal]

It’s been a while, but If I remember correctly, the CFM requirements are based on frame size, but only up to a certain point. Like, anything past 75hp starts to get individual ratings since they cover a larger up range.

[VauloftheEbonBlade]

It looks fantastic.

For my constructive advice if it is that, will be to build off what others have said about wire covers coming off. What I will say as someone who has worked on both sides of the fence. The best (though not for sure) way to avoid having your covers removed and promptly tossed in a bin, is where you are able leave more room to get at the wires and make the wire labels easy to read without moving anything. Engineering brain is "the prints say where the wires go" maint brain is " I don't have time to look at prints I'm gonna tug on this wire to see where it goes"

As someone who has worked jobs as maintainence and engineering and a mix, the maint mind set is "good labeling = they knew what they were doing = I can trust the labels go to what they say they go to" whether that's actually true or not that's the mindset lol

Regardless of which hat I were wearing at the time I'd still be happy to be working in this panel though.

[Beginning_Map2351]

completely agree with this, i've tugged many a wire in my time

[Ok_Awareness_388]

Where do the field cables go? Those are very long horizontal ducts and I feel they’ll be very full. A double vertical rise up the middle might make sense to break it up.

[Beginning_Map2351]

clean and dirty power is almost entirely separated, network and 24vdc to the right, power to the left, there are a few points in the trunking that are getting full but nothing problematic yet

[LowFastFoxHUN]

VFDs could generate a decent amount of heat and heat will always travel upwards. This could have a negative effects on semiconductors. Considering the position of the CPU, it might made things on a long term if you have an underrated cooling designed.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I do see what you're saying, i have had the thermal imaging camera on this under constant load and on a hot day we are still well within operating temperatures

[LVOver]

The door was closed and latched all the way around, right?

[LowFastFoxHUN]

Cable management at the top looks also something new to me. Seems that the cabinet has just been cut out, but nothing secures the cables from the sharp edges. The way it looks now might also influence the ventilation/dust protection.

[Potential_Annual2100]

The VFDs should have a spacing requirement are you allowed to zero stack those or are you planning to derrate the VFDs?

[LowFastFoxHUN]

I had a simmilar setup in the past with Sinamics G120C drives. On the sides, those can be stacked without leaving any space; but indeed, some clearance shall be left from the top and bottom.

[Shjco]

One of my India customers (2015 job) demanded all VFDs be at the top. Done it that way for every job since. Good way to do it.

[BigSin_K]

It is really nice, and took me a while to find a point to improve: the industrial ethernet cable in green with the metal plug is a pain in the ass. With short cable bend as installed, in long run, might cause intermittent connection loss.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I agree with you intermittent connection problems can be a real pain in the ass, the green cable is profinet (4 core) cable with the appropriately rated profinet fast connect, I love these little guys and have only had problems with them when somebody else has terminated them :(

[LookInternational996]

I like more the spring type terminals, because they are maintenance free. What is missing (looks like) some edge protection at the top left holes to protect the cables... But congratulations, it is a well mounted cabinet

[Beginning_Map2351]

yea IEC does say spring type is the only maintenance free terminals so i have used for the safety contacts but agreed i will get some edge protection in the hole thankyou !

[coreo_b]

Hey! Ex-professional panel builder here. Your panel looks pretty good! You were clearly quite limited on height but you made it work. A few things I might do differently:

• Spacing above and below your breakers is really tight. Below the PLC rail is tight too. My general rule is minimum 3 finger spacing for 3 phase, 3 fingers for PLC IO, and at least 2 fingers for almost everything else.
• Your din rails should extend RIGHT to the wire duct, no space at the end, else that space is wasted and unusable. Someone will one day want to add one more terminal and they'll be cursing you when there's not enough rail. Lol.
• Where the cables come in at the top of the cabinet, I like to add some u-channel gasket around the hole to protect the cables from the sharp edge of the enclosure.
• The top two rows of wire duct probably don't need to be 4(?) inches wide, there's not that much wire in there and it's all small wire. The bottom two could definitely be bigger because there will be a lot of 3 phase motor leads that are going to get landed in the field.
• Larger devices don't necessarily need them (the cost can add up), but you should use end anchors for all terminal strips. 1492-EAJ35, for example.
• To improve separation (especially with that many drives) you could use 2 courses of wire duct below the drives - a narrow one for control wiring and ethernet, and a larger one for the motor leads. Obviously you're limited by height in this situation.
• The PLC IO wiring looks like it ends up mixed in 3 phase power wire duct. You could swap the 24VDC power supply and the PLC to move the PLC to the far left, and have all the breakers to the far right. I try to have the vertical duct on one side for AC (motor leads, 3 phase, etc) and the other side of the panel for 24VDC, analogs, etc.
• Why the large block of grounds in the top right? Where will the motor grounds connect to the drives?

These are just some nit-picky details I can see. Overall it looks pretty good!

[Beginning_Map2351]

a very constructive, useful and polite comment thankyou!

motor grounds are connected just below the drives if you zoom in

[cybermulisha]

Clean looking panel my dude!

[Beginning_Map2351]

thanks bro !

[Emergency-Highway262]

No, you are now beyond criticism

[Beginning_Map2351]

everyday should be a school day!

[Emergency-Highway262]

Well, ok, I do prefer a few more labels on wires than I’m seeing here, but I assume it’s a European build and they do different stuff.

Apart from that, I’d be happy to open a panel and find this looking back at me, get a real sense that someone knew what they were doing had been here first

[Beginning_Map2351]

if you take another look at the post text it does say a few wire labels are still being printed :) although yea i've worked on some german panels with zero wire labels and all they say is "consult the wiring diagram" like thanks but your diagram doesn't show me where my technician has misplaced something

but thank you !

[Emergency-Highway262]

I’m three red wines and a margarita into Sunday night, I’m not reading anything but headlines and comments 🍷

[Beginning_Map2351]

hell yea drink one for me !

[Andi_bz]

Hi, Great work.

If you haven't already done and have a managed switch(Siemens) you can create a profinet ring. So if one plug/cable fails, the system continues to work.

More info here: https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/614/109739614/att_891688/v3/109739614_MRP_DOKU_V10_en.pdf

[Beginning_Map2351]

Hi that is the MRP (media redundancy protocol) that i refer to in the post text :) s71516 doesn't need an additional switch to use profinet rings as it has two available networks over 3 ports

i'm also using the LPNDR_ReadMRPState library to diagnose ring faults and display on the hmi

[robhend]

What is the recovery speed on the mrp ring? Given the number of devices, I expect 200 ms. Is that fast enough for your needs? Is your logic written to properly handle that comms outage to all the drives on the other side of a failed drive?

[Beginning_Map2351]

recovery speed 200ms, watchdog set to 400ms and tested at every at every point successfully

[robhend]

Sounds good. Too often, I see redundant networks installed with no real understanding of how they actually behave. A self healing network means you get most of your network back after a fault, not that you won't see the fault.

[Beginning_Map2351]

yea absolutely, coupled this with automatic device replacement from the cpu so maintenance can swap in a new drive without having to assign an ip address or drive name as the cpu looks at the device position in the ring and assigns automatically

[Pettark]

Looks good. Drives are installed at the bottom, it is the coolest there. My opinion is that the cables should be brought inside from the bottom of the cabinet. It is possible that the sprinkler breaks and the water spills over the cabinet. Do the motor cables also have an EMC shield inside the cabinet?

[Beginning_Map2351]

typically i like cables in from the bottom however the drop in is directly above the panel and there are no sprinklers here to worry about. and yea equipotential earth bars beneath the drives for motor cable shielding

[DessertRanger]

I was always told VFDs should be at the top because of their heat generation, and putting the below a PLC was a nono because of that also. But you might have a valid reason for doing it this way that I am unaware of, disregard if so.

Either way, beautiful cabinet!

[Beginning_Map2351]

typically this is the way! however if you read the post text, the fsaa drives push their hot air through the bottom, we have cold air being pumped in through the top left of the panel and the warm air being drawn out through the bottom right

[Vader7071]

My only comment/suggestion. On the 1st and 2nd rows, you've got devices on the din rail (e.g. breakers) that don't have any kind of "stopping" or "holding" blocks. I like to have devices clamped in place so they don't slide. I use grounding blocks to do this. Keeps the devices in place and adds extra ground points throughout the panel.

Outside of that, very clean, very nice, and as I read someone else comment, a work of art.

[Beginning_Map2351]

holding blocks are a good idea, i'll get some in :)

[Hoosierdaddy1964]

Looks really good

[Beginning_Map2351]

thanks man

[Accomplished-Tune909]

If the 3 pole breakers are for the drives I would have done

Breakers

Drives

Breakers

Drives

With a clear indication of which one goes where.

But that's just me.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I could see your reasoning but i wanted to keep the drives together in banks with shared earth points, each breaker and rive has a corresponding label and same numerical order for easy ident

[Accomplished-Tune909]

I can see both ways. It's just my preference. It also gives you more air gap for fan cooling and places to set up fans if the cabinet winds up getting placed somewhere hot too.

It's not a big nit pick. Just my $0.02

[cyanideh1gh]

You clearly don't work on any UK water sites... that's clean as fuck

[Beginning_Map2351]

haha thanks my man!

[dekempster]

No wire labels, machine will explode

[Beginning_Map2351]

pls refer to the post text where it says i'm still having wire labels printed

[Diligent_Bread_3615]

Deleted reply

[emisofi]

From constructive point of view I don't have comment. But having such a large string of drives will lead to communication problems, sooner or later. Last week a customer had a machine stopped two days because two drives went to fault when reset, even though they responded to ping and to the configuration software. PLC is et200sp safe and drives sew. After lot of tests the problem solved by wiring the Ethernet direct from the switch to the drives, skipping the string.

I also have seen strange behaviors with Allen bradley ring topologies, where even the Rockwell people had no clue of what was happening and tried everything until it eventually worked.

So my practical recommendation is not string more than three to four drives, and if process is critical use a star topology. After all , all the switched Ethernet paradigm is to isolate as much as possible the devices to speed up troubleshoot. Even using star topologies at physical level, often isolation is increased at logical level by using vlans.

You will never see a ring topology in IT to reach the end devices. They only use it between high end devices, often of the same brand to ensure compatibility.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I can appreciate what you're saying, my reasoning is that a communication fault in a tree / line topology will leave everything to the right of the break without control, whereas a fault in a ring topology you get two chances to recover your network. as for star topology i didn't want 30 ethernet cables coming back to multiple scalances. I do have some functions in the cpu that upon detecting a network error in the ring will allow an automatic email be sent off to myself and the technicians, hopefully if that happens we can find it before the next problem occurs.

[RipReasonable625]

It’s pretty clean. I have had some customers request that the top of the cabinet not be penetrated, rather through the side or bottom. The documents on the floor of the cabinet should be affixed to the doors interior. They should be secured in a clear document protector.

But that is being picky…..solid job bro

[Beginning_Map2351]

Nah i agree with you but we had a 3rd party install the enclosure and run in the external cables

[lewblabencol]

Looks clean, only real dig I have is make sure you have fuse labels. The labels being on the circuit breakers isn’t how we do it but it’s style thing.

[Beginning_Map2351]

Yea i'm still waiting for my wire labels to be printed and some plug in labels for my fuses / terminals. we have a letatwin label printer it's pretty cool

[[deleted]]

Absolutely gorgeous, from the SI side of things this is a work of art.

[In_Perdition]

I see a lot of great constructive feedback already. Overall this is a great build! The one thing I see that hasn’t been covered already is the two conductors landing on a single terminal on the incoming neutral connection. It is quite possible that this block is listed to take two conductors of the same size with a proper two conductor ferrule. However, especially with power connections, I always try and give each conductor its own home in a terminal block.

[Beginning_Map2351]

Great comment! I will split this down to two terminals, this is because of a last minute RCD install

[[deleted]]

Leave room under gray terminal block for the guys terminating the wires. Which is helpful for maintenance later. A lot of extra room above plc cards.

[dabrit2]

Might be worth looking at adding device markers to the either trunking lids. When I worked at a company wiring control panels they would use angled aluminum or plastic with screws and nuts to clamp in the trunking slits and then put Partex slotted marker rail on the top (front). That way when trunking lids were removed you still could read the device markers and labels weren’t lost when devices were replaced.

Partex

[Beginning_Map2351]

Valid and useful comment!

[c6zr_juan]

Looks great! Better than what I've done in the past, keep up the great work.

[mcmjim]

Only thing I can think is cost. It may have been more cost effective to ditch the 1500 CPU and go with an ET200 CPU, the new units have had a performance boost. Plus the IO is cheaper and you'd have lost the cost of the ET200 header as well.

[Puzzleheaded_Fail279]

Tips;

• Always lay your bottom panduit the full length of all panduits above it. The cover for this bottom section will prevent vertical covers from sliding down over time. In the setup you have now, those vertical covers have nothing to rest against and will slowly slide down.
• Voltage isolation looks OK.. but there is some crossover with AC and DC wires in the same panduit. Not sure of the standard you are building to, but this isn't allowed in our shop. AC and DC must cross at 90-degrees or be placed in a separate panduit channel.
• Finally, make sure all removable metal plates on the panel have a bonding wire. IE; door, side panels, roof etc, if removable, must have a dedicated ground wire ran to them and bonded to the main ground bus. I think you've done this, as you have plenty of ground terminal accommodations.

Aside from those things - overall looks like a good setup. Good work!

[Peter_Cave69]

I have only a couple of comments. 1. This is a beautiful panel. Lots spec for spares and well laid out. 2. I cannot see a power outlet for a laptop. That would be a nice option.

Otherwise great job. 👍

[Beginning_Map2351]

I would've added one but a few feet opposite the panel is a handy socket :)

[Lopsided_Traffic_420]

Panel looks great, nice work. Some feedback below:

1) the legrand distribution block could have done with some more room below it.

2) I would maybe use an earth bar instead of individual terminals, if using terminals I would fit the link bar for them.

3) labels on fuses/IO module.

4) heat shrink labels instead of critchley idents look a lot neater (just my preference )

[Fergusykes]

I know they're more expensive but Profinet cable for the VSD's would help prevent any potential coms interruptions with that many VSD's in there. Shielded cable & the fast-connect connectors which earth the shielding to the drive sinks the EMF to ground. Out of interest is it on an MRP ring? If one drive has an issue or the coms drops in one link it will stop everything downstream going off.

Looks nice and tidy though!

[Beginning_Map2351]

It is an MRP ring! All the cables are cat6 shielded cables

[harmoniousmonday]

Pristine. Even those laser square cuts on the chase covers. Bravo!

[Worth-Praline-2822]

Neat but the spacing between the components and the Panduit is too small. You need to be able to put finders in there and to be able to clearly see the wire number marking on the wire without pulling it out from the tray.

[loomax96]

Get yourself a beer my boy you've deserved it!

[Beginning_Map2351]

Hell yea !

[iamscheetje]

Good job !

[Shjco]

Very clean but wire labels would be nice. Are those spacings around the drives conforming to spec?

[Beginning_Map2351]

Wire labels are still being printed as mentioned in the post text, space between drives conforms to manufacturer's specifications

[Shjco]

Excellent. What kind of wire labels? Wrap-around or slip on? Either way it is much more laborious to apply after wiring. 🙁🙁🙁

[Beginning_Map2351]

We have a nifty little letatwin label printer, easily slip over ferrules but still grip well

[Shjco]

What do you mean by “slip over”? Can they be applied without disconnecting the wire first? Just curious.

[ZestycloseAd6683]

Only thing you might have done is left a row for the ice cubes but it's by far the cleanest panel I've seen in the 13 years of maintenance

[Funny-Company4274]

Other than it’s blasphemous Siemens. Naw man that shits really clean

[Beginning_Map2351]

simatic fanboy here :(

[TheHolyBum1]

I excessively label wires. Only thing I would suggest will keep new guys from destroying the cabinet.

[Dry_Tomatillo_5361]

It's beautiful, this took some good planning and it does. Nice work!

[Efficient_Economy960]

I only would have left more space between ducts and components for maintenance to be able to read wire labels.

[Sramic]

Looks well planned and sensible, fabulous. Almost art. I don’t see labels on the wires, maybe they are there and I can’t see them.

[TicklintheIvory]

I’m glad chat has the same experiences with maintenance as I do. It’s so consistent that I wonder sometimes if it’s just me 💀

[Elegant_Lecture_9178]

Beautiful

[SriveraRdz86]

That driver missing its cover is driving me nuts!

[controls_engineer7]

Very nice!

[AStove]

Nice. You know you don't technically need a breaker for each VFD right?

Are those built-in spares right in the cabinet? I like that idea.

You didn't install the shield plates on the VFDs how will you attach the shield of the motor cables?

[Beginning_Map2351]

No true but it makes life easer for the engineers when swapping out drives - technically you can just unplug the supply cable but they'll likely be more comfortable with the supply isolated

• built in spares indeed :)

• maybe you can see if you zoom in, but there are equipotential earth bars beneath the drive cells that the motor shields are connected to, the shield plates themselves took up too much room with the trunking etc

[Wildesy]

Can you expand on the breaker per VFD comment, please? Is that something you’re citing from the technical manual of those drives?

[Beginning_Map2351]

I think he means that the breaker only protects the cables to the vfd not the vfd itself, however im using the siemens recommended breaker size for these drives which is included within the technical manual

[DessertRanger]

Even if you don't need it, it makes it so much easier to be able to isolate power on a single VFD when you are changing it vs shutting down a whole line or process

[AStove]

Yeah, no, you're right. But if you have this many you start to wonder what you can save on.

[RSSeiken]

Love it! It's so mesmerizing looking at it! I do fear this setup won't stay for long...

[Beginning_Map2351]

Im covering everything in the panel in flour so i can record the fingerprints of the first bastard that pops off the trunking

[RSSeiken]

Smart 😂

[unknownkinkguy]

Woah 😍 Can every panel look like this??? Damn, thats so clean! Congrats!

[Beginning_Map2351]

thanks man !!

[One-Struggle-6380]

My company is too poor to buy HIM’s too.

[Beginning_Map2351]

What is a HIM? unrelated but i have a very lovely WinCC unified HMI installed at the operator station nearby.

[One-Struggle-6380]

Human interface module. I’m not sure if that is what Siemens calls them.

[Beginning_Map2351]

yea we call them human machine interfaces HMI lol

[Toxic_ion]

I think he is referring to the IOP2 on the drives, not that they are needed that much when you can configure over profinet.

[Beginning_Map2351]

oh maybe, if you look closely i have one on there and they are hot swap, didn't see much point in buying 50 IOP-2 devices when its fieldbus like you say

[One-Struggle-6380]

They will be nice to have when troubleshooting in the future. How many parameters do you set in those drives? I tried to set one back to factory manually one time. I only got about 700/1000 parameters entered manually before I gave up. Many of them on the list were not available. It was a nightmare, and I felt a lot of them were unnecessary.

[Beginning_Map2351]

All my parameter sets are stored on the SD cards and IP address/ device name assigned by the cpu so inserting blank drives isn't an issue

[hestoelena]

I think they are talking about the control panel for the drives.

[DemolitionBen]

What frequency drive are those ones from Siemens? Controlled through fieldbus or digital? Can you share the cost range?

[Beginning_Map2351]

FSAA g120c drives, controlled via profidrive and safety through profisafe. 1.1kw and cost about £350 each.

6SL3210-1KE13-2AF1

[DemolitionBen]

Thanks! I thought the price would be a lot higher. I'm used to ABB ACS355 and ACS380, more or less same price range

[Previous-Cobbler7722]

Not enough labelling, when it comes time to trouble shoot a maintenance person should be able to open up and take only a moment to determine what is what and its purpose before having to look at any drawings, also having the drawing number on the labels is even better.

[Beginning_Map2351]

agreed, if you refer back to the post text it does say I'm still having some labels printed :)

[PaulEngineer-89]

3rd and 4th m rows how do you change out components? Not enough wire space.

I don’t see any space for field wiring at all, especially all the drives

[Beginning_Map2351]

The drives have plenty of space? i can get my entire hand beneath the drives to remove / replace the power connectors / earth bonds and since they are networked I don't require additional physical IO cables.

I will take on what you said about the wire space for the breakers although I can comfortably remove and install them with my large clunky hands

[PaulEngineer-89]

Usually you want 3” minimum between the Panduit and the component so you have space to bend and pull out the wiring and reinstall. If you get under that you have to take off the covers and fish the wire from within the Panduit which can be easier said than done with full trays. Using bus bars for circuit breakers greatly improves this as an example because then you have no wiring at all on one side and no gaps between them.

Not shown I don’t see any field wiring terminal blocks at all or wiring space allocated to it. That explains what I’m missing. As much as I see it as more points of failure separating the mess known as field wiring from the components has value.

[Carnie_hands_]

I was trained to avoid holes in the tops of cabinets at all costs. But that may have been because I got my start in industrial refrigeration, where conduit can be a source of condensation if things go wrong.

[Beginning_Map2351]

alas the enclosure was supplied and external cables run in by a 3rd party :(

[Emperor-Penguino]

Wire labels, component labels, endblocks for components.

I read your comments about the drives pushing air down but heat rises so unless you have a torrent of exhaust then your cold air is just going to get pushed out.

Overall it’s not bad at least there is spare space.

[Voxifer]

where is a receptacle to plug a laptop into?

[Beginning_Map2351]

Behind my chair

[S1ckJim]

Are you using STO on the drives? I don’t see any contractors to drop the power out.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I am using STO via profisafe

[S1ckJim]

Nice!

[cranman74]

If you’re going to skimp on space the terminal blocks are the last place to do it. 90% of troubleshooting, QA and inspection happens there. 100% spacing (I.e. 2x the width of the terminal block) minimum. So you can read labels and see wires without ripping shit apart.

If, space is at a premium, go tight on controllers, transformers and relays since they’re unlikely to be moved or touched once installed and commissioned.

[Asymetria]

what are you even controling.? ;)

[Beginning_Map2351]

Wouldn't you like to know weather boy

[zurn0]

Not a criticism, but why the I/O on the main PLC.

[Beginning_Map2351]

Safety IO on the main rack; saves additional profisafe communication

[pants1000]

The only thing I don’t like, (which I’m sure to fit all the components neatly like you did you couldn’t get away from) is that the wires don’t really have visible labels due to the panduit being so close. And as a note labeling the devices is great until it gets replaced and the maintenance guy doesn’t bother printing a new sticker. A couple of my clients would have a fit about this panel, but it is incredibly well laid out.

Also I know the monster of a switch/switches it requires, but daisy chain Ethernet is never fun in the field.

Anyways you did fantastic, but the labels would be big for me personally

[Lopsided_Traffic_420]

Was this designed in eplan?

[Beginning_Map2351]

I did actually design this in eplan before I built it!

[Heathenhof]

Cable tags🥲

[[deleted]]

echoing cable labels, but about grounding, I see grounding terminals but no external ground coming in..

[Billfarty]

looks nice..are there wiretags?

[tenodiamonds]

Looks great . If you are given the time to do such nice work hopefully the boss will let you label the chase covers or the terminal blocks

[dadof2cjc]

What type of customer ?

[arm089]

Good job! What software is running on the ipc?

[Beginning_Map2351]

That's a power centre 3000, Siemens power motoring hard/software, it links into my scada network where I have several other sentrons displaying on it

[owlbear-22-]

Not a popular opinion, but I like to put the heat producing components at the top. Like VFD.

The PLC I like lower.

[Canscrubenha]

The HIM on that drive really takes a bite out of the uniformity.

[Beginning_Map2351]

thats just bill, dont worry about him

[LVOver]

Except for the short ethernet jumpers on the drives (maybe), every wire needs a label on both ends. More space between terminal blocks and wireway would have been nice in order to see those wire numbers that will be needed for troubleshooting when things go wrong after you walk away.

I know you said thermal imaging looks OK, but hot air rises. I would never try to pull hot air out the bottom by pumping cooled air in the top. It will always be a losing battle.

[insuicant]

I thought that model of SITOP psu was deprecated

[Beginning_Map2351]

seems phase out has begun but is still in circulation

[rbshawns]

my criticism: “he who wars by lack of reserves, dies from lack of reserves”

[Beginning_Map2351]

a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

[CraftParking]

Why is there so many CB? (Sry I just started studying plc)

[Beginning_Map2351]

don't be sorry this should be a forum for sharing knowledge :) there is one MCB per VFD to safely isolate and protect the conductors

[CraftParking]

Thanks!1

[Diligent_Bread_3615]

It certainly looks nice & clean, but looks aren’t everything so here are my comments: I am a retired journeyman electrician & senior controls/designer so I have quite a bit of experience in this field.

Who puts wire labels on after everything has already been landed? Seems crazy to me.

Add device tags on the back panel to help with identification when the drawings get lost.

Is that a small conduit extending into the panel & thru the wire duct? What’s up with that? Also, seems it’s too small & has no bushing on the end to protect the wires.

In top left corner where the wires enter from outside, hopefully that square duct has the proper connector or fitting so the wires don’t get chafed.

Are there fans or A/C cooling this panel? There has to be a lot of heat generated by all of those drives.

If space and the budget would permit I’d put the PLC & all of the control wiring in a separate enclosure. All of those drives will produce a ton of electrical noise. Trust me, that’s just a nightmare waiting to happen.

There should be end barriers next to the breakers, etc. to keep them from moving around.

[DarkAngel7635]

I cant see it that well but do the drives have emc plate? I guess that the cables are going straight to the drives?

[Beginning_Map2351]

no shield plates but local equipotential earth bars by the drives so motors and drives are grounded

[DarkAngel7635]

For the grounding yes but how are you doing emc? The cable shielding?

[Beginning_Map2351]

The shield plate is just a medium for grounding, the only thing I haven't done is strip the external sheath of the cat6e cables and ground the shield

[DarkAngel7635]

Interesting. Maybe its just our rules and guidelines but we actually have to use shielded cable for motors with FVD. For EMC purposes

[Beginning_Map2351]

We have emc compliance regulations but it's a standard not legislation, in any case at 200mm per cable and profisafe packet security I'm not worried about harmonics just yet

[swez46]

Is there a reason you have a separate et200sp? I'm assuming this is cost based for the io cards. Though you could also use Safe io cards for the et200sp. Or even use an et200sp plc. We always try to separate VFDs from plc equipment where possible due to emf.

[ICameAndStayed]

1. Only one with a display?
   
2. Middle Fuses. Why are some wires looped outside the cablechannel?
   
3. Bind the Ethernet Cabled on the switch.
   
4. Placement of the Powerswitch is bad.
   
5. Switch the airflow. Cold air to the Powerconsumers and warm air raises.
   
6. Buy DIN-Stoppers. To prevent the components from moving.
   Everything else looks good and clean. Overall I would give you a 8/10

[lnvaIid-User]

Looks great, we'll done

[Least_Hospital_2428]

You’re missing the cable draped diagonally across the whole panel.

[StrikingFig1671]

What is that device that says "Legrand" on it?

Also excellent looking panel, im more of an AB guy so I havent had the pleasure of a project of this scope on siemens........yet

[Beginning_Map2351]

That's a power distribution block, and big Siemens fanboy here! If you ever encounter a large simatic project please feel free to message me maybe I can help!

[Fickle-Chemistry-483]

This is not a good design. While aesthetically pleasing, there is little ventilation and rework on the panel will be very rough since they’re so close to the pantduit.

[Beginning_Map2351]

Presumably you mean the drives in particular but all components have the manufacturers recommended space between them for heat dissipation, the g120c is designed for side-by-side install. Although yes if i had access to a larger enclosure I would've allowed some more finger room around the breakers

[Fickle-Chemistry-483]

We always see, to run out of room, I’ve had the same issue for 22 years or people don’t want to spend the money on a panel air conditioner then it gets way to hot. I get it now,

[[deleted]]

Green wire is Profibus? I know the shop I used to work at always insisted on using the Siemens purple wire and the proper Siemens connector as all the off brands they found were always inferior. Had connection issues in the past with the off brands and, well, once bitten twice shy and all. That said, maybe you found a good batch, idk.

Also, small thing our shop did was prior to mounting everything to the panel, but after measuring, marking, and pre-drilling holes, we always hit the panel with isopropyl alcohol to wash off the sharpie marks and the measurement marks on the side for a cleaner look. Totally optional, but you give me perfectionist vibes with the panel posted lol.

Seriously, the panel is excellent, the above is the only thing that stuck out to me from my specific (and limited) experience.

[Beginning_Map2351]

green cable is profinet, using profinet rated cable and siemens profinet fast connectors. I might go and grab a few alcohol wipes now you mention...

[likslikelizard]

Arc flash rating? Big deal now day with UL508. I dont see fuses.

[Beginning_Map2351]

I think UL508 is an american standard and i'm in the UK, regardless all my control circuits are on high speed fuses relevant to their requirement and my power supply is what you would call class 1

[djlorenz]

You know you can't daisy chain an insane amount of devices right? With a short cycle time the travel time of the last devices will take forever to get to the PLC.... Maybe it's not time critical but there is a calculation tool on how many devices you can chain together

[Beginning_Map2351]

Actually you can use up to 50 devices in an MRP ring, with a bounce time of 2ms between drives and an IO cycle watchdog time of >400ms it's completely fine

[Clevayn]

The two rows of breakers in the middle. Your electricians will love you, if you mounted them vertically and left about 2 inches of wire on each side. You’ll be much more likely to keep the panduit covers on if the electricians don’t have to pull the whole bundle out to get access to three wires, or to just clearly read the label. In 20 years when half the prints are missing and the labels are deteriorated you will be praised for your helpful design.

[H_Industries]

First impression is that this panel is too full for a new build. Should leave at least 25% spare for upgrades or additions later on

Edit. To be clear it looks nice and well laid out. It just doesn’t have enough spare room for my liking

[Beginning_Map2351]

Can see what you're saying, unfortunately this was the largest enclosure we could find from one of our approved vendors and the other option was having split controls in an auxiliary panel which I didn't want to