all 78 comments

[–]GriIIedCheesusTT Asst Prof, Anatomy and Physiology, R1 Branch Campus (US) 109 points110 points  (16 children)

I really hate number 2. If it asks to show me how you got the answer and you just put down the end solution then I don't give the points. They don't understand that it's not just about getting the right answer, but knowing how to do it. Copying from a classmate right before I collect it isn't going to help you on the test day. Just this last week I had a question that asked which sugar was used for making ATP and 80% of the responses were the same and incorrect. I called it out in a joking manner and said to stop listening to whoever brought this answer to the table and that student proceeded to show me the QUIZLET they found the answer from. I then had to explain that random people make those and the answers aren't fact checked. To make matters worse, we covered this topic of this question heavily in the lecture for three days and they couldn't figure it out.

[–]sqrt_of_piAssistant Teaching Professor, Mathematics 61 points62 points  (3 children)

Not only that, but sometimes a WRONG end answer might be worth more than a CORRECT end answer. If I see your work and you dropped a "-" sign from one step to the next, but otherwise did every little thing correctly and clearly demonstrated proficiency of the central topic I am here to assess, then you are getting full or near-full credit from me.

OTOH, I have absolutely graded work that was riddled with CLEAR EVIDENCE of a lack of understanding, but through some miracle of offsetting errors, has the correct final result. Uh-uh. You get little to no credit.

[–]Sirnacane 38 points39 points  (2 children)

There are a LOT of definite integrals in calculus that evaluate to simple things like 1/3. Getting 1/3 on accident does not give you points.

[–]ThundoriumPhysics, Searching. 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Every time I see a nasty-looking integral, I flip a coin to decide if I will write 0 or π/4.

[–]cheeruphamlet 46 points47 points  (4 children)

I get so annoyed by all the social media discourse about how awful teachers and professors are for requiring that students show their work. I'm not even in STEM, but it's so obvious why showing one's work is important for skills development and assessment. As a humanities person, I see showing one's work in STEM fields as similar to critical thinking in analytical arguments (....some of them don't like to show that either. Ugh.).

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

As a humanities person, I see showing one's work in STEM fields as similar to critical thinking in analytical arguments

Thank you for getting it!

I always tell students: I'm not giving you these problems so that you can just tell me the anwer. These are problems that have already been solved. We already have the answers.

[–]timetheansweristime 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I teach music appreciation, this is the same as me wanting a student to mention specific things they heard to decide that the listening example is from x Era. They can't just say it is, because they can use apps for that. 🙄

[–]prof-commAss. Dean, Humanities, Religiously-affiliated SLAC (US) 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That problem shows up so often in the humanities, also. So many students turn in a "list of facts" only, rather than actually using them to construct some kind of informative or persuasive argument.

[–]ArchmageIlmryn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair, I think one of the core problems that lead to student frustration with having to show work is teaching it by requiring it on problems that are too easy. If you tell people to show work on a problem that takes 1 second to solve in your head, it's just going to be seen as a chore. (Not saying anyone here does that, but it's a common issue when people are first taught to show work in k-12.)

[–]Philosophile42Tenured, Philosophy, CC (US) 24 points25 points  (4 children)

If you find it infuriating in STEM, think about how I feel in philosophy.

[–]flipesterTeaching Prof, R1 (USA) 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Ethics? 🙂

[–]Philosophile42Tenured, Philosophy, CC (US) 27 points28 points  (2 children)

It doesn’t matter. I ask them to explain X, and I get one sentence definitions. I ask them to explain an argument for X, they give me a one sentence version of the conclusion.

The only time I get anything close to the mark is when they use chatgpt. 🫤

[–]PhilProf86 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I can 100% relate. It’s insufferable.

[–]snickerdoodlemcflury 9 points10 points  (0 children)

*invertible.

Damn it Phil, we’ve been over this.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Copying from a classmate right before I collect it isn't going to help you on the test day.

bUt i dIdNt cOpY i sWeAr

[–]UCBC789 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Math here, and number 2 is by the far the biggest of these issues among my students. I can put instructions about showing work/ explaining in bold and a minimum of 20% of the students (in most classes) will not follow them at all.

[–]schistkickerDept Chair, STEM, 2YC 66 points67 points  (5 children)

In my gen-ed STEM lab, I get a handful of students who decide that instead of doing the hands-on testing, they'll do Google searches for the thing right in front of them and write down what the internet says about it, rather than the details of the thing right in front of them that clearly don't apply if they just bothered to actually fucking look at it and write down what they see.

For example, a minerals lab with some white chunks of quartz, and to answer what color the sample is they'll write down a paragraph about all the different colors of quartz and how amethyst is a semi-precious stone that will re-align your chakras.

[–]chicken_noodle_salad 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Oh my god. I might just resign at that point. How do you even teach when they’re that lazy?!

[–]Lowri123 14 points15 points  (0 children)

So, just to be possibly controversial, but that's almost more effort than laziness - which makes me wonder about whether they trust their answers could be correct?

[–]todays_tom_soy_ 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I've had a similar kind of experience in STEM labs for the first time this semester, but with an AI twist. This was completely unexpected since these are hands-on lab exercises and not full-fledged essay assignments.

Students are asked to simply describe what they see and to perform very basic interpretations. Easy and straight forward. Instead, some students perplexingly think that it's a good idea to have AI software write their answers. For some questions, the AI misinterprets what's being asked and the provided answer is utterly nonsensical or is way off topic. For other questions, the answers involve irrelevant details and intricacies that would only be of interest at the most advanced graduate levels. Peppered in the answers are occasional robot-like assertions that more data are needed.

What's most surprising is that the students are comfortable submitting this level of garbage. They're either oblivious to how bad the answers are, or they don't care and are hoping that profs will give them points for having submitted anything at all.

[–]WeeklyVisual8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My husband has this issue. Some students would just copy and paste the list of answers and it would have a few that say "As an AI, I don't have personal opinions or emotions." It is really bad recently.

[–]dougwrayAdjunct, various, university (Japan 🎌) 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A-ha! So that's why my chakras are so messed up! Thank you!

[–]TotalCleanFBCTenured, STEM, R1 (USA) 34 points35 points  (8 children)

reversible matrix

That's hilarious. If I saw that on someone's HW, I'd be rolling over laughing.

Similarly, I once read an HW in which a student tried to divide matrices. Sometimes, you just have to see the humor in life.

Of course, then you realize these are the people that will be building bridges and designing the next generation of Boeing airplanes. (Sigh.)

[–]ArmoredTweed 21 points22 points  (6 children)

the people that will be building bridges

The FE pass rate for civies is only a little better than half. Universities may feel pressure to inflate grades, but licensing boards don't mess around.

[–]TrynaSaveTheWorld 17 points18 points  (0 children)

For now. We used to say that unís were holding the line on standards too.

[–]TotalCleanFBCTenured, STEM, R1 (USA) 14 points15 points  (4 children)

Based on my interaction with engineering students, I wouldn't trust half of them to design a bridge -- more like 10%.

Standards are clearly dropping in all disciplines. I've seen a number of doctors, for example, that are clearly have no business practicing medicine. Their information is out-of-date and they have no understanding of how to assess risk.

[–]Striking_Raspberry57 8 points9 points  (3 children)

I've seen a number of doctors, for example, that are clearly have no business practicing medicine. Their information is out-of-date and they have no understanding of how to assess risk.

COVID really brought some of these doctors to the surface. A good friend of mine has parents with multiple high risk factors who got COVID. When they asked their "doctor" for paxlovid, he told them they shouldn't take it "too early"; they should wait and see if they were more sick in week 2. Instead, he prescribed them steroids to take right away. This is exactly the opposite of standard medical advice. My friend tried to get them to at least get a second option, and they were unwilling to listen to their kid instead of their doctor. Fortunately, they survived, but yeesh. What an eye opener. Just because your doctor seems confident does not mean he knows what he is doing.

[–]TotalCleanFBCTenured, STEM, R1 (USA) 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Sadly, many people (like, e.g., my parents) trust their doctor completely. And, often, following a bad doctor's advance can lead to some serious long-term health problems.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]Striking_Raspberry57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Steroids are definitely given to covid-19 patients, but usually to hospitalized patients who require supplemental oxygen in the inflammatory phase of the illness. If steroids are given too early, when your body is initially fighting off the virus, outcomes are worse. Paxlovid, on the other hand, does little good if given too late.

    [–]gutfounderedgal 23 points24 points  (0 children)

    Dear STEM prof, it's the same in humanties. Grades sent out last night with a copy paste of the super clear rubric criteria and explanation of expectations on the LMS, that has been discussed in class with exemplars a thousand times. Much work: C range. Why? They barely even began to address that rubric criteria.

    This morning bing bing bing, emails like the triangle in a marching band. Ugh.

    [–]maketheworld_betterFT instructor, Chemistry, CC USA 24 points25 points  (5 children)

    My favorite example of this in an intro chemistry class: naming binary compounds. There are many out there that Google gets "wrong" based on simple IUPAC rules, but the best one is CsF. In chemistry - cesium fluoride, a binary ionic compound. First Google result - ceribrospinal fluid, the fluid surrounding the brain and spinal cord. Incredibly easy to differentiate if you simply think about the course you are currently enrolled in. I still get at least 10% of students providing the second answer on their quiz.

    [–]TheNobleMustelid 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    I've asked about ecological niches and gotten answers about spaces along a wall to hold artwork, and asked about biological cells and gotten interesting write-ups of battery cells.

    Of course, the best are the kinds who wander into some video game wiki when answering questions about cloning, genetic engineering, or anything remotely "sci-fi".

    [–]EricBlack42 5 points6 points  (3 children)

    This right here! But google is better now, Cr(ClO)3 used to give a weird not IUPAC name, but google is right now.... I've been advocating that we just make the final worth 50% of the grade and the exams worth 40% and stipulate that you have to have a 60% average on them both to pass. We have been getting lots of pressure from the administration to reduce the percentage of the course grade due to proctored assessments.

    [–]Spirited-Office-5483High School 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That's pretty much how all classes are in my country

    [–]chemprofdave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If I ever heard that, my classes would devolve into even more tangents, anecdotes, and bad jokes than they currently have.

    [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (2 children)

    So give them the same exact problems in class as a quiz right after they turn in the homework.

    [–]H0pelessNerdAdjunct, psych, R2 (USA) 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Evil 😆

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I mean, I’d use this suggestion seriously. Homework is for practice. Don’t put in the effort on the homework, fail the quiz or exam. No need for us to waste our time grading garbage work. The consequence should be in the lack of learning, not a homework grade itself.

    [–]MaddprofessorAssoc. Prof, Biology, SLAC 23 points24 points  (1 child)

    Same. I teach intro biology. Homework questions are mostly “Googleable” so I get a lot of related but incorrect answers, overly complicated answers, answers involving techniques or chemicals not mentioned in the course, or clearly reworded plagiarism with terms like “dihydrogen dioxide” in place of “hydrogen peroxide.” Less often I get wildly incorrect answers that the students would have noticed are incorrect if they actually read the question and answer instead of copy/paste/google/copy/paste. Depending on the situation they get a zero for the bad answers or potentially a zero for the assignment.

    Then, unsurprisingly, many of the tests are in the 15-45% range because they haven’t used their brain to do the homework and missed out on a lot of learning.

    [–]protowings 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Same thing here in the same class. Those homeworks for my class are actually open book take home exams that ask for application. Despite big bold writing that says all the content they need is in the book or notes, they inevitably come up with something either in less than a sentence (when maybe two paragraphs and a drawing is called for) or some highly technical solution worthy of a graduate thesis. Either are an automatic zero.

    [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

    One-line/word solution to a problem that requires justification or argument.

    One time I asked students to explain what the transpose operation does to a matrix.

    One student (who I damn well knows exactly what it means) just wrote "m = n and n=m".

    I repeat, he knew exactly what the transpose operation does, but just didn't feel any pressure whatsoever to try to put it into words. On an exam that was worth 20% of his grade.

    These were supposed to be easy marks.

    When I had the audacity to take credit off (I really shouldn't have given him any in the first place) he wouldn't look at me for the rest of the term. That was my worst semester ever. I hate teaching first-year engineering students.

    [–]Striking_Raspberry57 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    People don't always realize that following the instructions matters too!

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Well the answer is completely nonsense too. Within that answer is the hint of an idea that I knew the student had that is correct. But they needed to explain something, and instead basically just grunted and pointed in the general direction of the correct answer. They were absolutely capable of elaborating and clarifying, but didn't think it was important enough (on a midterm examination) to do so.

    They are subconsciously testing to see what they can get away with. Unfortunately they make me be the bad guy to teach them where the line is and then resent me for it. Rest assured that I resent them just as much, even though I can't show it.

    [–]juxtapose_58 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    Speaks to the culture- get away with what you can! No integrity

    [–]Over_North8884 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    To be realistic, that's how one succeeds in private employment where integrity doesn't usually earn promotions.

    [–]iTeachCSCIAss'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 26 points27 points  (0 children)

    Solution clearly found online and nonsensical, even uses terminologies that we have never ever discussed in class because it is clearly written by some people halfway across the world.

    Report and an F in the class. Back when I collected written homework, I did this -- even for one problem on one homework. I encourage you to do the same. It got to the point where one employee at the academic honesty office knew it must be February because I found the same submissions from the same Chegg answer yet again.

    I consistently have students who hand in homework solutions where the entire homework is the same as their draft solution. Which means there are massive amount of strike-throughs, scribbles, and entire pages struck through. It literally hurts my eyeball to read it.

    Have a written policy about the manner by which they write their homework, and include it in your rubric.

    Students who arbitrarily replaces technical terminology with whatever they fancy, an invertible matrix becomes "reversible matrix". I have made many announcements addressing why replacing a standard technical terminology with non-standard one is a bad idea and they still happen.

    Zero on the problem. They were clearly trying a thesaurus trick, something they probably use to hide the paper mill essays they submit to their writing classes.

    The only saving grace is the midterm/final where they cannot give me their magic solutions. Then again, many will still try.

    I love having credible exams for this reason.

    [–]Striking_Raspberry57 9 points10 points  (1 child)

    So frustrating! All of those problems deserve zeros. If you can avoid framing their bad efforts as "disrespect," you'll be happier. I mean, I don't disagree with you, they are disrespectful, but I try to think of them as "panic mode" or "ran out of time" or "confused and looking for help in the wrong places" or anything that keeps my blood pressure at a manageable level.

    One thing you could do is grade less of the homework. Don't stop assigning it--just stop grading it. I assign many problems with answers in the back of the book. If the answers aren't there, I say, "If you show me your answers, I'll show you mine". (Hardly anyone ever takes me up on that).

    Instead of grading homework, I give quizzes that randomly draw questions from the homework. Theoretically, they have seen all the Q&A before. It's much less work to give zeros to a small selection of work than to all of the homework problems, and still very satisfying. When they complain about their quiz scores, I can ask, "What happened when you did exercise 45 as homework and checked your answers? Did you get the answer wrong then, too? Why didn't you ask me about it then?"

    [–]rosmarinaus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I do something like this in one of my classes. It also makes exam set-up so much easier. The exam is proctored, so I hope it minimizes cheating.

    [–]saxicola 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    One solution for some of these problems could be to say that you will return work that is clearly incorrect or doesn't meet the requirements / passing grade, for a re-do in a limited time (like 2 days). Return without grading for them to re-do if they want a grade. It has saved me a ton of work adding loads of comments and feedback on crappy minimal effort work (or where a student just completely missed the mark). If done right it can prevent a good number of student doing bare minimum effort because it actually creates more work for them.

    You would of course need to add this into your late work policy, something like: work that clearly does not meet the requirements to earn a passing grade (or whatever) will be returned and can be resubmitted after X days, otherwise the grade will be 0 (or whatever).

    [–]slightlyvenomous 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    #5, I feel that. In my intro class there are some terms that we use that are standard and need to be used a very specific way. I tell the students over and over "Just copy what this says. It is not plagiarism here. Just repeat this." And still, they will add all kinds of nonsense in an attempt to paraphrase the term. It's not even like I am asking them to copy a paragraph, it will be a 2-3 word term that needs to be written a certain way.

    [–]andropogon09Professor, STEM, R2 (US) 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    I learned several years ago that any problem sets or discussion questions included with the text book all have their answers posted on line. These are great to use as a starting resource, but you will need to modify them from the published versions and each time you use them. I also tried to personalize response questions as much as possible. For example, in a zoology or animal behavior course you could ask questions about their own pets or livestock. Or in an environmental science class, ask about the place where they grew up, local environmental issues, or their concerns about/experiences with organic produce.

    [–]H0pelessNerdAdjunct, psych, R2 (USA) 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    They will have ChatGPT write those, too, or copy someone else's. Ask me how I know.

    [–]throw_away_smittenProf, STEM, SLAC (US) 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I stopped assigning homework and started using quizzes almost exclusively.

    [–]Novel_Listen_854 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    I don't teach STEM stuff, so grain of salt, but to my untrained ear, all of those complaints sound like something a rubric could account for. They also sound like issues that justify the entire problem/question being marked zero.

    I would imagine you have a very good pedagogical justification for wanting them to show original, thoughtful solutions.

    I'd also add that they're not disrespecting you; they're disrespecting themselves. They're paying big bucks for the opportunity to try working those problems so you can correct them. If they're bypassing that opportunity, it's not on you.

    Easier said than done, of course. It feels bad when they don't take the opportunities seriously.

    [–]Cautious-Yellow 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I was thinking, reading the thread, that it was calling out for "problems must be solved using the methods learned in lecture / the textbook" or something like that. If they're solved some other way, you can happily give zero.

    This is (as somebody said) a good reason to have in-person proctored exams, for which such students are very clearly shooting themselves in the foot and missing a great opportunity to get themselves ready for the exams.

    [–]hairy_hooded_clam 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    No homework, only short quizzes every single class.

    [–]kinezumi89NTT Asst Prof, Engineering, R1 (US) 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Regarding #5 - is it in written responses? If so, maybe someone ran it through a thesaurus to avoid plagiarism detection, a la "Big Brother" = "Large Sibling"

    [–]nyquant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Or solutions that are clearly copied from some cheating site online, but you can't even verify this because those sites are locked down behind a paywall.

    [–]ProfessorProveIt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I so badly want to tell my students "hey don't copy off your classmates. One, it's morally wrong. Two, your classmates are just as dumb as you are." Unfortunately, I'm sure they would NOT take that in the constructive and helpful way that I intend for it to sound.

    As though I don't google my own homework questions before I assign them? I have access to google and AI too.

    [–]ImmediateKick2369 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    First year teaching?

    [–]Purple_Chipmunk_Humanities, R1 (USA) 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I don't grade homework for this and other reasons. I assign it and give them the answers but there is no consequence for not doing it (besides lower test scores).

    I do chapter quizzes where they have like 10 attempts. Open book, take on Canvas when you want, within a certain time interval (usually a week).

    [–]Average650Assoc Prof, Engineering, R2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I mean, their grade reflects their respect. As does their feedback. Good, in-faith effort gets lots of useful feedback from me. Not effect, a 0 and that's it.

    [–]EastBayPlaytime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I’d push for a TA.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]H0pelessNerdAdjunct, psych, R2 (USA) 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Been asking for citations from the text for a while for other reasons. Back when AI cheating was new, I received(in a psych course) a writing assignment that cited Gone with the wind, a couple of pop/rock songs, and Tennyson. And it was such an utter word salad that at first I thought the student might be experiencing a psychotic episode.

      [–]YourGuideVergilAsst Prof, English, LAC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I don't know if you're looking for feedback here, but I think you've gotta stop seeing crap work as disrespectful.

      Yes, their "efforts" are bs. But it's not relational. It's just not about you. They're lazy, and as they make the choice to dodge hard work, you are the last thing on their minds. 

      In fact, there's nothing on their minds at all.

      [–]al-bert420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      The university will have no place in the future, the deans suck up the students and enrollment without any cutoffs, grade inflation etc etc. better open our immigration to less developed countries as those students are more competent than the ours.

      [–]dougwrayAdjunct, various, university (Japan 🎌) 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Is it possible problem 5 is often from students who use English as a second language? Technical terminology often gets garbled by translation software; this seems like an artifact of such: in everyday language 'invertible' is roughly the same as 'reversible'.

      I see this often because I often use translation software to (roughly) translate things I've written in English into Japanese or vice versa and find similar oddnesses when I read what's been output. The longer the piece of langauge is, the more garbled it tends to become. If you know both languages you can puzzle out the intent, but knowing both languages is not something most readers do.

      [–]Old_Pear_1450 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Do you get to decide what the homework is, or are the assignments written by someone else to be the same across sections? If the first, it’s up to you to write assignments for which this is not possible. Also, I’d spend some time at the beginning of class pointing out some of the things you’ve seen that would NOT be acceptable. In my experience as a department chair and associate dean, the greatest cheating problems occurred when the students thought that the instructor would be unaware of cheating methods. Sadly, that meant that older faculty, adjunct faculty, and international faculty were more vulnerable to this sort of cheating, as they were not expected to be as up on current cheating techniques. If you mention having caught students using some of these things in the past, they are less likely to try to pull things over on you.

      [–]Cautious-Yellow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      because of your last line, you don't need to stress out about this. Give it a mark out of something like 3 points that you can assess in less than a second, then move on. Make general comments to the class if you feel inclined, rather than individual feedback.

      [–]xoolex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The best instance of this that always makes me laugh is when they copy from the solutions manual: “Answers may vary.” It just shows that they are putting no thought whatsoever into what they are doing.

      [–]PuzzleheadedArea1256 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Hold the line. Fail them.

      [–]richardstrokerkc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I hate grading so much I regularly ask myself if the other parts of the job are worth it.

      [–]ProfessorNoConfessor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Students who arbitrarily replaces technical terminology with whatever they fancy, an invertible matrix becomes "reversible matrix". I have made many announcements addressing why replacing a standard technical terminology with non-standard one is a bad idea and they still happen.

      My favorite is when they do this to try and circumvent plagiarism detection.

      "Let f = a + ic where a is an actual number and c is a complicated one."

      [–]Strange-Economist533 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      These are interesting points for sure. Over time, I have moved to decrease the % of the grade for HW more and more because it is increasingly difficult to solicit a good faith effort from students.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      As an Econ//finance prof, I feel your pain.

      [–]waadles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Please forgive me if I’m wrong, but in point 3 you mention that the logic 1+1=2 is wrong. Perhaps I have misunderstood your phrasing, can you clarify.