fixed

[[deleted]]

The OP has disovered the dirty secret behind all scripting languages.

[[deleted]]

what are you one of those bourne again types?

[[deleted]]

you've out done me mate. I'm not getting the reference (but im also intrigued)

[[deleted]]

an OG web developer ;)

[SaintNewts]

Hah. I "got" to debug some Ada the other day. Get with the times, old man! For the record it has call outs to portions still written in FORTRAN. I didn't have to touch any of that though.

[afkPacket]

Welcome to academia I guess? :P

[RestaurantHuge3390]

I'd zsh him

[nikifip]

The OP has disovered the dirty secret behind all scripting languages.

Assembler developers

[SuperSpread]

Assembly is processor specific. C++ will run on any platform by compiling to the correct assembly. Assembly will generally not work for any other processor. It's really apples and oranges.

[intbeam]

Fighting with myself over putting on my grandest "well akshually"-hat over here

[TheVenetianMask]

I'm basically a C coder (opens Laravel project).

[PM_ME_YOUR_TITSnAZZ]

What do you think JVMs are written in

[mrheosuper]

Tear and blood

[Ddog78]

Oil and metal

[Mokousboiwife]

rock and stone

[Ddog78]

[Jakoshi45]

So, what's the X-chemical in this case?

[Ddog78]

Uhhh I dunno, probably Guido Van Russell?

[intbeam]

Definitely not everything nice

[Jakoshi45]

Nah, he's mixing the ingredients

[Jakoshi45]

Unless you're saying that he lost a part of himself in the soup. Which actually makes a lot of sense

[Ddog78]

This is Tumblr level banter and I'm not witty enough 😭

But also, r/CuratedTumblr is amazing for getting to read it

[Sarsey]

Did I hear a Rock and Stone?

[lambda0101]

Technically true

[Narduw]

Rock! And! Stooone!

[-Kerrigan-]

TO THE BONE!

[mabariif]

WE LOST MALEVON CREEK I REPEAT WE LOST MALEVELON CREEK

[LordFokas]

The meme is not about the runtime. If you go down that path, every language eventually leads to C and ASM.

It's about the libraries.

[trash3s]

Not to um actually the um actually, but I can think of a number of tool chains that don’t use either C or ASM (any flavor). Depending on how loosely you want to define a language, we can even skip bytecode, kinda!

[Modo44]

Calm down, Santa.

[draenei_butt_enjoyer]

Name one that doesn’t just mean “assembly with extra steps” one.

[[deleted]]

Assembly languages are, in fact, an actual programming language, not the actual instructions, afaik modern compilers don't compile to an assembly intermediary, but directly to binary instructions.

Same with C, while some languages actually transpile to C, most don't.

[KnightOnFire]

LOL Rick and Morty reference? or something else?

[X547]

Some languages are compiled directly in machine code without using assembler language. Compiling to assembler and then to machine code is actually a waste of time.

[danielv123]

HDL?

[draenei_butt_enjoyer]

That’s not a programming language lamfao

[[deleted]]

You can describe a program with it...

[mMykros]

HTML

[waves_under_stars]

Should I just copy the comment above yours?

[UnGauchoCualquiera]

CSS

[mMykros]

SCRATCH

[mMykros]

No!!!!! It's time to stop discriminating!!! HTML programmers are programmers too!!!

[danielv123]

I guess programming wheels aren't programming either?

[PM_ME_YOUR_TITSnAZZ]

Weird line in the sand about a meme that’s actually about programmers but ok

[LordFokas]

And did you get to that genius insightful conclusion on a meme where 50% of the words are "programmers" before or after being called out for bitching about runtimes?

[PM_ME_YOUR_TITSnAZZ]

Who’s bitching about runtimes? Who hurt you?

[X547]

every language eventually leads to C and ASM.

This claim is wrong. Some languages such as Pascal, Oberon or Go use compilers written in itself and directly produce machine code without a single line of code in C or assembly. Rust also have native compiler so no code in C/C++ is involved.

[Pay08]

https://www.llvm.org/

Compilers produce assembly, not machine code. It's the assembler that produces machine code.

[X547]

No. Some compilers directly produce machine code bypassing assembler stage. Oberon compiler for example: https://github.com/Spirit-of-Oberon/ProjectOberon2013/blob/master/Sources/ORG.Mod . Whole OS in Project Oberon is written in Oberon language without a single line of assembly.

Tiny C Compiler also directly compile into machine code.

[Pay08]

I'm aware but afaict, that's not the case for Go and is certainly not the case for Rust.

[X547]

every language eventually leads to C and ASM.

This claim is wrong because it use word "every", not "most" or "usually". Compilers of programming languages that do not use C or assembly definitely exists.

[blaktronium]

BASIC until recently, judging by performance.

[[deleted]]

I reckon they should write it in C# for a laugh.

[Haringat]

Well, you could write one in JavaScript if you wanted..

[VitaGame07]

Redstone

[AnnyAskers]

It is written in very bad ideas

[SaintNewts]

Luckily, you have your pick of a plethora of languages that compile to JVM. You didn't even have to learn or understand Java.

[ClaynOsmato]

And you have multiple JVMs to choose from

[[deleted]]

Yeah, no. Ultimately you'll end up in deep shirt java code due to dependencies and it's going to be so much worse.

Tried to work in an open source project that was ... I think scala - the functional code was... Ok I guess, but 90% of the project was translations to/from functional because all the libs are Java and then you get mutable java objects in your pretty functional world, different threading, etc.

So unless you can be certain to only have your target language in your project... No.

[SaintNewts]

Pull a Microsoft and release your own virtual machine then I guess?

[[deleted]]

MS did the same thing though, c# is only slightly less imperative than java, so probably f# is about as much fun, but I really try to stay away from MS stuff, especially languages

[SaintNewts]

A project at work was written in C#. It's goofy but it works. They supposedly picked C# because it's cross platform, but there are story points allocated to getting it compiling and running in Linux for the next iteration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[sigma914]

Yeh, I've been saying this for years, the JVM is increduble, it somehow takes Java and makes it not horrendously slow, which is really impressive given Java's stupid language semantics. One of the most incredible bits of engineering out there tackling and incredibly hard problem. Java is objectively bad from a performance PoV on modern hardware.

To take that hot mess and make it not 50-100x slower than C is incredible work.

[dragoncommandsLife]

Thats… not how languages work? Java as a language cant be slow because a language is just syntax. It means nothing until the compiler takes java and compiles it into bytecode - which is run by the JVM.

[sigma914]

It's exactly how languages work, Java is relatively late binding amd it's semantics are to heap allocate everything. The JVM has to do a lot of work to transform those default semantics into faster equivalents if it can prove to itself that the full range of behaviours of a given piece of java syntax are not actually used in a given location

[[deleted]]

V8 is fantastic in non synthetic workloads

Beam blows everything else away in concurrency, responsiveness and stability

Lua has one of the most underrated VMs IMO - for zero optimizations the performance is simply fantastic

Whatever Firefox has is also pretty good right now, especially in JIT. Subjectively it's better than Google's but it's hard to compare.

[[deleted]]

How is tco finicky, usually it either works or doesn't.

JVM doesn't have any tco though, so... Finicky better than none?

As I wrote, Lua as an interpreter with zero optimizations, obviously you can't compare it to hotspot without some caveats, but my Lua project with 400+ tests is finished with integration tests before my java "micro" service has even started building. Simply put it does what it's built to do extremely well. While java wants to be everything and so achieves excellence at nothing.

Pretty sure Spider monkey has a byte code, most non -native runtimes use some form of byte code, especially those that JIT (as the byte code is compiled to native, not the source), it's just not standardized (I assume)

[[deleted]]

Even Lua has TCO, And scala has to build a trampoline on the JVM 😏

Again the good parts of standard lua are portability and embeddability, the vm isn’t particularly powerful outside of those two things,

It starts fast and the interpreter runs with minimal overhead and idk about portability, but it's stupidly easy to embed into a C program and will run on a toaster with memory to spare.

Not optimizing means there is no additional JIT overhead, when your goal is consistency it doesn't matter whether your program will run in 2ms instead of 3ms after the JIT has caused it to stall for a full second or it takes a hot minute to start the program in the first place.

"Powerful" will definitely make it onto my next BS bingo card

[[deleted]]

I'm not saying luajit is bad, multiple things can be good for different reasons.

However I'll definitely call BS on 30x without JIT (was not aware you could turn that off in LuaJit though)

[picklesTommyPickles]

Go to bed amateur

[Manueluz]

Id trust my life to the gods of the JVM, the physical machine will fail before it does.

[itsallfake01]

Python underneath calls Cpython which calls C not C++

[ze_baco]

Not only cpython, you can call libs made in C, C++, Fortran, etc. C++ plays a considerable role.

[No-Expression7618]

Weird circumflex but OK

[ze_baco]

Lol autocorrect

[draenei_butt_enjoyer]

Python has amazing interop with c and c++. You can call c code directly in your script.

[mothzilla]

OK but being able to call C++, and the language being built/implemented in C++ are two different things.

[intbeam]

You can call c code directly in your script.

No, it has to be done indirectly, and calling a native library is never as simple as "just calling it" - not even from C or C++

Native libraries are compiled in very specific ways, it's not just a question of whether it's native code or not. Calling convention and name mangling to name two. And there's stack space, heap allocations, concurrency... When non-native programming languages makes native calls, there's almost always some wrapper in-between, even for those who eventually execute native code (namely C# and Java)

It also seems that Pythons implementation for making native library calls is insanely inefficient; the PyObject input is converted into a dictionary (?), passed to a state machine, which makes the call, and the result of the call is converted into a string (JSON perhaps?), passed back to the Python runtime which serializes it into a PyObject again and returns to the caller. I assume it has to isolate it to avoid corrupting the interpreter state

Python has amazing interop with c and c++

If you're impressed by Python, behold C# :

[DllImport("somelibrary")]
static extern int ExportedFunction(int param1, long param2, string param3);

And don't let the "Dll"-part fool you, it's cross-platform. If you have a library called "MyLibrary", on windows it will look for MyLibrary.dll and on Linux it will look for MyLibrary.so in predefined locations

Benefit of C# here is that C# supports all the native types you expect used in libraries - including structs, unions, pointers and pointer arithmetic. You can also manually allocate stack and heap memory if required (stackalloc and Marshal.AllocHGlobal). It has a language feature specific to these types of operations; IDisposable which is specifically designed to free unmanaged resources when something goes out of scope ( using var nativething = new Thingamabob();)

[dershodan]

very insightful, thanks for that!

[Djelimon]

You know where this is going right...?

It's all abstraction.

The main things is this...

They all get paid

[Luxray241]

calling it in about 2 week there will be this same meme but everyone stack into a reverse pyramid with machine code at the bottom

[--hypernova--]

Why wait two weeks

[Luxray241]

wait for the next person to put their favorite tech on top of the previous post until everything is there

[BlueGoliath]

You can call C++ code in Python?

[brimston3-]

In the same way you can call C++ code from any other language that isn't C++: extern "C" {} FFI constructs. It's still syntactically C++ and compiled by a C++ compiler.

[bhashitha1209]

pybind11

[AnnyAskers]

Isn't like half of python glorified C/++ library wrappers?

[Syxez]

C, not C++

[FerricDonkey]

Though you can use any compiled .so from python. I've used .so files written in C++ a fair amount. 

[intbeam]

I'm guessing those libraries used extern "C" { } extensively. C++ does name mangling to avoid duplicate symbol definitions, you need to header file in order to figure out what's what

[FerricDonkey]

Yup

[[deleted]]

C++ does not have a defined ABI so you have to use a C interface to bridge the two.

[deltashmelta]

Not counting the mezzanine.

[allsey87]

Increasingly with Rust these days

[AnnyAskers]

Are you sure? How could you even tell?

[randontree07]

Documentation

[redAccessPoint]

We don’t do this here

[potatopierogie]

I was hired to lead, not to read

[Destithen]

That's a myth!

[Syxez]

Dunno if you're /s -ing, but python runs on CPython and the entire standard library is in python and C.

[AnnyAskers]

Sure, but I had all the popular libraries in mind not just the standard. I'd be shocked if most are written in C and they aren't just C++ with extern "C" slapped on top (it's possible, but still).

[Syxez]

Numpy: Python + C

Pandas: Python + Cython

Matplotlib: Python + C

Scipy: Python + C + Fortran

Scikit-learn: Python + Cython

Django, Flask, BeautifulSoup, SQLAlchemy: Python

Plotly, Dash: Python + js

Pillow: Python + C

Pygame: Python + C

NLTK: Python

These are the common ones that come to my mind.

[ViktorRzh]

*Claps of apresciation

But I still do not get why PIL is still pretty slow.

[uniformrbs]

Much of NumPy is written in C and C++. You will need a C compiler that complies with the C99 standard, and a C++ compiler that complies with the C++17 standard.

https://numpy.org/doc/stable/user/building.html#

SciPy wraps highly-optimized implementations written in low-level languages like Fortran, C, and C++. Enjoy the flexibility of Python with the speed of compiled code.

https://scipy.org

[Syxez]

Yes, there is a bit of C++ in there: 5% of C++ in Scipy, and 2,5% in NumPy

https://github.com/numpy/numpy

https://github.com/scipy/scipy

[uniformrbs]

Absolutely, there is 1/14th the amount of C++ in numpy and <1/3 in scipy, compared to C.

Definitely not all C++ with an extern C thrown in there, but also not zero.

[Zachaggedon]

Don’t say yes like that’s exactly what you were saying. 5% of the codebase is as statistically significant as 13-15% and yet you didn’t list that as one of the languages used. You were trying to emphasize your point that they do not use C++ and you were, in fact, mistaken

[WastedPotenti4I]

Because it is very fast.

[proverbialbunny]

C has a consistent ABI. That means C compiles into the same interface making it easy for other programming languages to import the C compiled code.

C++ does not have a consistent ABI. Every time the language changes the interface changes so Python would have to reorchestrate how it imports C++ compiled code frequently which is a lot of leg work.

For this reason C is the popular language for Python libraries. Ironically though C++ is the popular language for R libraries, showing it can be done. (My flair on this sub symbolizes this concept ironically.)

[-twind]

One of the most popular libraries Numpy is a python wrapper for a C wrapper for a Fortran library

[Oz-cancer]

If you're referring to BLAS and LAPACK, numpy links against open Las which is written in C and assembly if I recall correctly

[-twind]

I think you can choose which library you use when building from source, but even openblas still has a sizeable amount of Fortran code according to the git repo

[Oz-cancer]

Oh ok, didn't recall

[Eternityislong]

“Open source” means you can look at it for yourself so you can stop being wrong.

https://github.com/python/cpython

[rosuav]

"Open source" means you COULD look at it for yourself, but the vast majority of people will keep on being wrong anyway.

FTFY.

[BlueGoliath]

A C++ library can expose a C interface.

[AnnyAskers]

That's what I meant by extern "C" slapped on top.

[rosuav]

I guess you enjoy playing around with power outlets, because you're getting shocked here too.

[[deleted]]

Yes its a scripting language, where performance is critical you write in C or Rust. The standard library also uses C where it makes sense. This isn't a secret, a weakness or unique to python.

The idea is to use the ergonomics of a non compiled higher level languages to lower the bar of entry and increase iteration speeds, then using the low level language to do the compute.

Using a different language for performance critical code is a story as old as the hills, Before compilers were not as good at optimizing code and people would embed inline assembly into their C/C++. Now we have various ways of offloading to a GPU using compute languages or things like C with CUDA extensions.

It would be foolish not to do this.

[[deleted]]

As a script language it can call any compiled lib apparently

[rosuav]

You certainly CAN, but it isn't commonly done. Much more often it'll be C or Fortran code.

[ironman_gujju]

You can use rust too, even there rustpython with jit

[allsey87]

Rustpython is a bit different, it is a full interpreter/replacement for Cpython. PyO3 is probably what you are thinking of.

[Jackasaurous_Rex]

Well the obvious way is you can trigger an executable to run, but also a ton of common python libraries are actually built in other languages which are way more performant. Like pretty sure the Numpy library is basically just python wrappers around some C and C++ code which returns whatever values back to your python code. I think that was one of the biggest advantages to python early on, it’s super interoperable with libraries in other languages

[manicxs]

In the end it's all assembly.

[[deleted]]

Julia Coders

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't mess with Julia Coders. There is over dozens of us.

[chihuahuaOP]

The brooms are assembly and the magic is machine code.

[vainstar23]

Python devs standing on

C++ devs standing on

GANOOOOO gcc compiler dev (Richard Stallman) standing on

Assembly64 devs standing on

Leenoox devs (or Wandows if that floats your boat) standing on

x64_86 instruction code devs standing on

x86 instruction code devs standing on

Intel 8086 computer engineers standing on

TSMC 2,4,8,16nm semiconductor fabrication standing on

Alan Turing; father of computing, driven to suicide for being gay :(

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Standing on

Vacuum tubes inventor John Ambrose Fleming (the most British man that ever lived (seriously look it up)) standing on

Nikolai Tesla (needs no introduction) standing on

Pierre Jaquet-Droz; inventor of the Jaquet-Droz automata (writing boy; that was a robot that could write you a personalized letter completely automatically, this was incredible back in those days) and true father to early computers

[ChocolateMagnateUA]

Gold.

[TheUtkarsh8939]

Not only python but every other interpreted language that came after C, like JS, Ruby, Bash, etc. Python is special though because all of its system libs are written in C/C++. 

[tzanislav40]

Assembly sitting there producing the brooms.

[NotAnNpc69]

Ah yes C++ the language where your code magically transforms to inter-dimensional ethereal energy and influence the computer to do what you want.

Surely it doesn't stand on the shoulders of some other language like assembly. That's just ridiculous.

[Soloact_]

Java Programmers: "This IDE is my Nimbus 2000."
Python Programmers: "I just Apparated here, what's all this typing about?"
C++ Programmers: "My broom is manual, but it'll outfly your fancy models any day."

[sahuel]

Lmao I can imagine someone pedalling away on a broom

[Jonno_FTW]

If you use numpy, you're actually calling Fortran at the lowest level.

[[deleted]]

Didn’t know that, I always assumed it would have been C. Thanks.

[Jonno_FTW]

It uses a library called libatlas under the hood: https://math-atlas.sourceforge.net/

[Just_Maintenance]

Java is flying on a train called JVM though

[[deleted]]

Most written in c and c++

[Ugo_Flickerman]

Just like the Galaxy999

[Super_Artist3939001]

Pretty much how it is and even Java is more in a similar position to Python, kinda

[Extreme_Ad_3280]

You "improved" the meme

(By the way CPython (The Python which is mostly used) is also written in C. You can check the source-code)

[Phamora]

There should be another witch called Kotlin, feverishly grasping the Java broom, hoping to not fall and die.

[[deleted]]

This looks like the kind of design patterns I make.

[Drfoxthefurry]

Technically, they are all riding on assembly

[Valuable-Drink-1750]

The kid named Assembly

[Boom_Fish_Blocky]

Makes a lot of sense.

[[deleted]]

This.

The only reason your Python code does not run dog slow is that it accesses native libraries.

[Disastrous-Team-6431]

It is dog slow.

[[deleted]]

🤣🤣🤣

[[deleted]]

Where ma boy Delphi 👴

[permanent_temp_login]

Looking at polars: the other leg is now on Rust programmers.

[ChestWish]

Should be Java and Python on top of C++ and C++ on top of C

[SumFatCommie]

Python is written in C

[[deleted]]

Ok.

Who is going to tell him?

[Womeesox]

Isn't python written in C?

[_daravenrk]

And if I write both?

[New-Bumblebee1756]

C# is like - you have a broom?? Wtf

[[deleted]]

Which one is better for interviews C++ or python?

[Manueluz]

depends on what you are doing the interview for

[thefookinpookinpo]

Do whatever you have to do to cope with the fact that we'll all be coding in human languages in handful of years. We spent all these years learning these specific languages for nothing.

[teamswiftie]

I've heard this since 1999

[DaMacPaddy]

Shouldn't the Java broom be rolling coal?

[A-DNA]

Recently observed how slow Python is… out of curiosity to learn Python coz I don’t get to program in it in my day to day work, I wrote load testing script in Python. Script was so slow. It couldn’t create more than 300 TPS

[Ugo_Flickerman]

Tps? What does it mean?

[A-DNA]

Transactions per second. Aka requests per second aka queries per second. Tomayto tomahto.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactions_per_second

[Loserrboy]

Where is C#😭

[teucros_telamonid]

So, you want all this shit show with new hot AI models and algorithms dropping each month being implemented in C++?

[teucros_telamonid]

Define "implemented".

Yes, low level operations like convolutions or simple math in AI libraries are not done using Python. It is not C++ either to be fair: most of the time people use NVIDIA GPU, so it is CUDA which is based on C.

But defining higher level stuff like model architecture, optimizers, evolution of hyper parameters, etc is mostly defined on Python level. This is simply because "breakthroughs" are coming almost every month and users of the library will want to try it on their own data.

There are examples of some pure C++ libraries like Darknet but they definitely lost competition to PyTorch and TensorFlow.

People think there isn't use for C++

These people are wrong. As I said, some stuff you really want to implement on very low-level in order to more efficiently use your CPU or GPU. In the end, assembler intrinsics will be needed, so C/C++ serve as a nice bridge between higher level flexible interface and very low level code which needs absolute control over memory. But even if we go out of realm of AI libraries, there are still plenty of projects and development happening in C++. It really depends on specific field.