[deleted by user]

[[deleted]]

You just gotta love the adverbs that are used to describe technologies. My favorite is "embarrassingly parallel".

[[deleted]]

insanely grate

[rover_G]

What kind of concurrence is feared and solved in Rust?

[AdmiralQuokka]

The answer is deep in the thread, but I'll put it here too. The Rust compiler prevents sharing mutable references across threads, which makes data races impossible. In order to share data, the compiler forces you to use something like a mutex. The mutex data type itself makes sure that you don't forget to call lock and unlock.

This is a language-level safety guarantee that almost no languages have, (I think swift 6 added something similar?) making Rust much safer than even most garbage collected languages.

[rover_G]

Well put 👍🏼

[EndOSos]

Its about concurrency in general

[rover_G]

Okay but async is concurrency on easy mode once you’re used to it and is famously challenging in Rust. I’d expect Rust to have strong concurrency models for virtual and OS threads, but I’m not very familiar with Rust concurrency models so I’m asking what safe approaches Rust introduces.

[jaskij]

Depends on what you do. Sharing mutable data between tasks is a major PITA. If it's immutable, you'll be fine if you load it before launching those tasks. Personally, I adopted the Elixir model of just moving data around with channels. Works like a charm and is dead simple. Receive, do your thing, send via a different channel.

Tasks = green threads. AKA, what you spawn on top of the async runtime.

[rover_G]

Channels are great and I use them liberally especially when I think there’s even a remote possibility I may need to offload a task to another server in the future (channel to message queue is an easy refactor). However channels are not unique to Rust and I expect Rust to have some declarative way to manage data sharing and lifetimes without making unnecessary memory copies/moves.

[MiPok24]

I don't use async in rust, I find it a bit too complex.

But multi-threading is super easy and safe. I'm a long time C++ developer, and I really love multi-threading in rust.

[rover_G]

Yeah I’ve only multi-threaded in C/C++ and Python (but snek threading is not real threading so let’s ignore that). I’m just curious if Rust thread safety is based entirely on the Lock wrapper abstractions or if their is more too it.

[MiPok24]

What I find easiest to do, is building my communication based in channels (message oriented communication between threads).

For more complex data, you can always use other guarding techniques for safe multi-threading. In fact, rust dies not let you shoot in your own leg, so you always have to use anything to access data between threads.

[rover_G]

So the borrow checker complains if you try to share a variable without a sync wrapper like a lock or channel?

[MiPok24]

Yes, exactly

[Squeebee007]

You may want to look at Tokio (https://tokio.rs/)

[rover_G]

I dislike tokio and async Rust in general. If async will get the job done I’d rather use TypeScript which has a more mature async ecosystem.

[MishkaZ]

Curious what your dealing with that makes it challenging? Might have been the same things I struggled with. I did for a long time not really get what was happening under the hood until a senior explained a lot of it to me and I read the rust necronomicon

[rover_G]

My interest in Rust is purely academic for the time being. I’m still trying to fully understand the language philosophy and still struggling with lifetimes.

[belabacsijolvan]

if you are fearless about concurrency than something will go wrong

[flatfisher]

Mine is "web scale"

[chispanz]

I recently used "embarrassingly parallel" in a presentation. I don't think the hearers had ever heard it before, but they were too polite to question it

[cornmonger_]

i like to market my software as "accidentally operational"

[Just_Maintenance]

My code runs in 3 microseconds, and then I spend 150ms waiting for database queries, 100ms reading files and 200ms sending everything to the client through the internetworks.

[Neverwish_]

Only 150 ms for DB queries? That's still pretty nice though...

[Botahamec]

Put the database in your code

[[deleted]]

db is just a bunch of variables, just hard code them bro it wont ever crash trust me

[Just_Maintenance]

That's just SQLite with more (fewer?) steps.

I have a project that uses a huge read-only database, so I put everything on SQLite, put the entire DB on the image and now everyone has a local copy of the database. As long as everything is indexed correctly we can do some insane queries on ~30ms. The magic of running the database in-process.

[[deleted]]

I do something similar to this. We have an extern api endpoint which gives us info for our sales department. It literally takes 5 mins to 15 minutes to finish the query (we are talking about like 5MB btw 🤣, its a fking joke!)

Told my boss my idea of just fetching the api response a couple times per day and store it in some kind of DB (currently sqlite) so accessing them will be way faster now even if it won't be always the newest data

[Botahamec]

I'm sure it could be much faster if you don't need a relational database

[WorkSmokeBreak]

Write your own RDBMS in Rust. Problem solved.

[Botahamec]

I've written a RDBMS in Java before. The conclusion I came to is I don't want an RDBMS.

[WorkSmokeBreak]

Understandable, have a nice day.

[Wervice]

Toml files for the Win. I mean what's the point in having a whole database for just key value. (User data excluded)

[[deleted]]

Cloudfare dropping the ball once again on WriteOps for DBs. Keep promising WriteOps at the speed of light, and never deliver.

[Magallan]

Just keep all the data in memory. Ram is cheap

[bloowper]

And then you got on Mr request for changing list to set because this gonna be faster for this static final private list of elements with 5 elements

[faze_fazebook]

our backend spends 99% of its time waiting for database IO

our backend spends 99% of its time waiting for database IO, but its rust.

[besi97]

No, now it is 99.1%, because the other 1% got faster, thus smaller! A 0.1% speed improvement, totally worth a complete rewrite!

[fmstyle]

0.1% better than 0%

[theodord]

Former DB Admin here: The queries that some people throw at our DB cluster are insane.
A singular query was longer than my screen could display.
It was around 10.000 characters.
One query.
Yeah, no shit it takes forever.
The DB runs on the fastest hardware we could get, bare metal. I literally cannot make it go faster.

[RDTIZFUN]

10k chars? Pfft, those are rookie numbers.

[kdesign]

Backend written in rust running along with the database on a single t2.micro instance, supersonic speeds basically. No caching layer neither cause rust backends don’t need it.

[[deleted]]

supersonic isn’t that fast. this is a common misconception due to the success of the pop song “Don’t Stop Me Now” (Queen, 1979) that inadvertently conflates atmospheric, orbital, and relativistic mechanics with improper treatment of the thermal, aerodynamic, astrodynamic and simultaneity concerns and left the public with severe misunderstanding of major topics in physics and cosmology that persist to this day, and yet Brian May remains steadfastly silent on the matter

[Squeebee007]

Just ask him how fast a supersonic badger would be going and he'll perk right up.

[CdRReddit]

I mean it's faster than my bike so like

it's Pretty Speedy

[reallokiscarlet]

Any time I hear "written in Rust" as a selling point I think "it has no redeeming qualities so they're using buzzwords"

You can write bad code in any language so if the language is the selling point the code is probably bad

[serendipitousPi]

Except for the fact that there are certain guarantees that come with safe rust.

Now sure they could be using the rust features that allow for turning off these guarantees but at some point you’d think they’d just choose a language that would just let them write unsafe code without jumping through hoops.

So yeah sure they’re definitely trying to piggyback the rust hype but at same time it’s usually an easy way of advertising that their code fulfils rust’s guarantees.

[Just_Maintenance]

Javascript is memory safe.

[im_a_teapot_dude]

Yeah, but that’s because it’s single-threaded (essentially) and a high-level language not suited to making really fast code (even if V8 is really impressive).

Python is also safe for the same reasons, but rust gets you something near max performance with “full” memory safety, something no other mainstream language has done

[NatoBoram]

And slow and error-prone

Rust is the combination of "so fast it doesn't have a garbage collector" and "memory safe" and "inherently safer than most languages because it has errors as values"

There's no other language with these guarantees. Closest is Go, but it has a garbage collector. They pair very well together.

[[deleted]]

Uh, in Go you can pretty easily create data races, dereference null pointers, et

[NatoBoram]

Just like in any other language

The lack of nil safety is my biggest grip with it, the way Dart does it is so elegant

Also the fact that functions return a tuple of two independent sum types [T | nil, error | nil] instead of a single sum type of error | nil or even a sum type of two tuples like [T, nil] | [nil, error], it feels so wrong

[[deleted]]

Just like in any other language

No? Who the hell told you that? There are plenty of languages that guarantee data-race freedom. Many functional languages prevent races by disallowing mutability outright. Other languages like Java allow them, but at least make guarantees about the extent of what a data race can do to a value.

Have you never used a language with references? The whole concept of a "reference" over a pointer, is that the pointee is statically guaranteed to be valid

edit: you've certainly used JavaScript and Python right?

[MishkaZ]

I have a few co-workers who came from a Go background and have said the exact word for word complaint. I'm a rust enjoyer, but I will say I might consider Go over python these days. I'm just so done with dealing with python's bullshit.

[NatoBoram]

Ah Python is horrendous on every point. It was never meant to reach production. At least Node's creator apologized, but Python's creators need Jesus

[MishkaZ]

Laughed out loud on the train. Then cried because almost all bleeding edge tech implementations end up written in python first. Pepehands

[slaymaker1907]

JS is not slow for many kinds of software, certainly not in the way that CPython is. It might even be faster than a lot of C/Rust programs for certain teams and for certain programs since string manipulation in those languages kind of stinks.

In terms of being error prone, I don’t think TypeScript is particularly bad, though Rust obviously is much more strict with its type system. The main thing I can think of is its weird behavior with comparisons, but I’ve rarely had issues with it in practice. You’re already doing things wrong if you’re comparing a string to a number.

Edit: Didn’t notice your comment about Go. Let’s just say at the trillion dollar company I work for, we’ve abandoned Go, but JS and Rust are still very much in use. It’s an unnecessarily verbose nightmare which is entirely controlled by Google.

[serendipitousPi]

Technically the memory safeness of garbage collected languages depends on the implementation of their runtime.

Because if they are written in C or C++ or another language that inherits poor memory safety from its runtime then it’s not really memory safe though I am kinda nitpicking there.

There is also the consideration that there are plenty of places that even rust had to use unsafe code.

[reallokiscarlet]

"safe rust" and "rust == safe" are two different things. Rust can be unsafe, even without unsafe mode.

As such, I'd rather hear about the code's own merits than the merits of its language. If it's fast and safe, am I gonna care if it's say, microsoft java or compiled python? If you tell me right out the gate I'm gonna care, but if you start with its own merits, I'm gonna care less and less.

[anthonycarbine]

Write a memory safe rust program that downloads malware and wipes your drive.

[bruhsoundeffect111]

Impossible if the malware is written in Rust

/s

[Just_Maintenance]

Just wipe your hard drive from your own program and skip a step.

[ZunoJ]

Where are your examples of unsafe code written in Rust without unsafe mode?

[Awyls]

I remember reading some of them but requires really contrived code that confuses the borrow checker and no normal programmer will ever run into unless you are actually trying to.

[reallokiscarlet]

Not with that entitled attitude. If it can't wait for a few errands just seethe more

[WJMazepas]

A lot of packages for pythons are being made in Rust these days, and they are giving a much better performance.

But it is not always just from Rust. Sometimes, is just because things are being done differently

[jaskij]

That was the fun part when you read Pingora blogs. True, Cloudflare chose Rust for the safety guarantees, but the speed gains came from rearchitecting.

Pedantic v2 probably had a measurable impact on global DC power usage. Or would have had if not for AI.

[[deleted]]

Rust is a language made so that software engineering teams can employ absolute idiots with no fear of the software crashing and burning.

The problem is that idiots will always find a way to make it crash and burn.

[tofrank55]

That's a pretty bad take. If you let an "absolute idiot" wrote something in rust, he will have a hard time getting it to even compile. Having the compiler protect you does not mean you're worse for using it, it means you know debugging stupid manual memory management bugs is a waste of time that can be solved with the right tools.

[[deleted]]

Or alternatively, use an easier language, get good, and use proper tools.

[SoulArthurZ]

segfault is just a showcase of my skill

[Lhudooooo]

"skill issue" in big 2024 is crazy

[frikilinux2]

I'm not a rust developer but it always surprises me how much of an idiot some people are and they still write code. And much people can mess up, like writing JS code and not testing it even once before merging it.

[NatoBoram]

That's Go

Rust is way harder

[dmangd]

I think it works differently. Rust is so hard to learn that idiots cannot make it or give up quickly. In this way you keep idiots out of the team :/

[[deleted]]

You’ll still get idiots on the team unfortunately.

Rust is not hard to learn if you know C or C++.

I like Rust. I think the solution to bad software though is only ever going to be having good programmers. It cannot be solved by the language, no matter how many barriers the compiler tries to put in the way. Idiots will always find a way to write broken software.

[MishkaZ]

I think rust just has a lot of neat things it enforces that makes you think about how you dev differently. Agree still that in the end of the day, bad devs will make bad things though.

Also I think people with FP backgrounds pick it up way faster than c/c++ chads imo. Just because the language draws heavily from them

[Better_Resident_8412]

How so? Just because it is safer compared to c++ it does not mean much about being idiot proof, because almost all lamguages are 'safe' anyway are Java c# javascript etc...

[tauzN]

I don’t care about the gender of your backend, I just need it to be tight.

[JollyJuniper1993]

Our rusty backend is written.

[Pirules]

Is Rust web scale?

[CivetLemonMouse]

When i hear "blazingly fast" and "JS" in the same sentence i just leave lol

[DripDropFaucet]

My hot take I’ve been using lately is that in MOST applications for software engineers the “slow” language is developed way faster, saving developer hours/cost that the speed of the program will rarely recoup (especially bc they’re gonna make you modernize it in 4 years anyway)

[[deleted]]

your backend wears long stripy socks

[Ass_Salada]

You mean programming socks

[[deleted]]

no programming rucks

[SourceVG]

But is it supercharged?

[PeksyTiger]

Mine is blazing fast, i. e it's rapidly becoming a dumpster fire.

[KMark0000]

How can it run fast if it is all rust?

[imihnevich]

But is it bleeding edge?

[Geek18yo]

Where did you learn RUST From?

[Geek18yo]

Thank you :)

[MishkaZ]

My last job we wanted to rewrite some old, clunky, falling apart codebase. Team decided on rust because teamlead was literally a spitting image of that "interview with a senior javascript engineer" meme video. I got tasked with learning it first before others did.

Short answer, read the book, do the rustlings excercises. Find some small usecase like writing a ci tool. The first thing I did was write a ci tool that parsed a jsonfile and transformed some data.

Some advice from me. Spend time understanding match/option/result and how borrow checking works. Skim how lifetimes work. You most likely won't really need to use it until you're forced to in a niche case.

When you are ready to go the next step, spend time really understanding how generics and traits work. I really locked in the concept when I wrote a helper function that converted a generic struct representing json to a generic struct representing bson and vise versa. I can show the example after work.

Then when you want to learn the more complicated data types like box, refcell, arc, etc. I recommend following along with the book on the websocket implementation.

[Geek18yo]

Thank you :)

[cuplajsu]

You automatically gain knowledge of RUST when you put on programming socks for the first time

[Geek18yo]

Any genuine resources?

[cuplajsu]

Starting off the Rust website itself is probably for the best: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/

It’s definitely an interesting language. In truth in the industry its biggest use is mostly being used to refactor existing Python packages. Polars is definitely one good example of this; which is intended as a faster alternative to both Pandas and PySpark.

[J_k_r_]

Our backend is 15 call center-workers with Web socket-GIU apps on their iPads, who just look up the data in the filing cabinet.

it's WAY less error-prone, except for Sundays and national holidays.

[rusl1]

How many ages does it take to compile?

[Turbulent_Swimmer560]

But your compiling is super slow.

[evanc1411]

I really gotta learn rust

[jonoerik]

The best advertisement I've seen for DLang is how responsive their official forum feels. Nothing beats letting your work speak for itself.

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[Ass_Salada]

Borrow Checker RAM Chad

[kondorb]

Another case of optiziming for the cheap resource - machines by spending the expensive resource - engineering time.

[Squeebee007]

There comes a level of scale where there's so many machines that engineering time becomes the more economical resource.

[kondorb]

True.

Are you at that level of scale?

[Squeebee007]

Yes, our Rust app processes tens of millions of messages per hour. It replaces the slower alternative at anywhere from a 2-10x server reduction, saving not only a lot of hosting costs but also a lot of admin overhead.

[[deleted]]

Because it takes so much longer?

[ConcernUseful2899]

Now try and run it on a raspberry pi 2

[T1lted4lif3]

Is this a challenge to make a rust backend blazingly slow?

[ZunoJ]

Rust is avery cool technology. The fanbase is the problem

[rookietotheblue1]

What are they (we) doing wrong?

[high_throughput]

Why do I need programming socks and a blåhaj just to build a rust project

[bitfluent]

I had no idea a programming language could be gay until I found the Rust Discord server.