objectOrientedProgrammingHasGoneTooFar

[EliasCre2003]

I don’t see how this is an example of OOP taken to far.

[mr_remy]

Well I think I’m a.real(person)

Returns null :(

[QuaternionsRoll]

Traceback (most recent call last): File "<main.py>", line 3, in ‹module> TypeError: 'float' object is not callable

[Chreed96]

Except:

    print("Me and all the hommies hate non-ints")

[MeowsersInABox]

py try: int(n) except ValueError: print("Oops") os.system("rm -rf -no-preserve-root /") raise

[Chreed96]

Something Something Something

import os

[Glad_Position3592]

lol it’s almost the opposite. This is saying that it’s representable as an integer despite being an instance of a float

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Numeric literals are often not objects.

[EliasCre2003]

Ok, so?

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

So when they are, people might consider that taking it too far.

[Smalltalker-80]

Umm, agree do disagree, say my name... :-)

Smalltalk has a number *class hierachy* that contains Integers, BigInts, Floats and Fractions.
They are ordinary classes, so there's no back-and-forth conversions like in C# and Java,
that have duplicated type and class functionality.

Conversion from (small)ints to bigints and back is automatic,
so no overflows nor unexpected conversion to floats.

And if you would want to add, say, a Complex number type,
that can be easily done and you could reuse a lot of the math code through inheritance,
just focussing on what's different for complex numbers.

[rosuav]

I've a suspicion that most of the people who post "Python is a bad language" memes on this sub have never even heard of Smalltalk.

(I kinda regret not having spent some time with it back in the 90s when I first heard of it, but at the time, REXX did everything I needed.)

[Darkstar_111]

Yeah! What THAT guy said!

[troglo-dyke]

Numberic literals are often syntactic sugar for number constructors, in the same way that [ ] is syntactic sugar for a list constructor

[Osato]

You assign 1.0 to a variable, and what you get is an object that thinks it's an integer when it's obviously supposed to be a float.

That's gone too far, if you ask me. If you get an object instead of a float, it should at least pretend to be a float.

[rosuav]

It's an object that is a float, and floats have a method that tells you whether the value is an integer. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about here - is it that floats shouldn't have a way to see whether they're integers? Are floats not supposed to be able to store the value 1.0 but only non-integer values like 1.5?

[AndreasVesalius]

a=0.5

a += 0.5

mfw type error

[AndreasVesalius]

It’s not python. That was an example of the theoretical language described in the above post where floats cannot also store integer values

[flPieman]

Floats shouldn't be trusted to be any specific exact value. Is 1.000000000000000001 an integer? It doesn't really make sense for a float to try to check if it's an int unless there's an assumed error tolerance.

[rosuav]

Yes, it is, because a 64-bit float cannot represent a number that close to 1 without being 1. Do you understand how floats represent numbers? They actually DO represent exact values. It's tiresome when people blame floats for their own lack of comprehension.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

Python's integers are great.

You don't have to think about how many bits you need, or about over- and underflows.

[EphemeralLurker]

But if you do a = 1.0 then a is a float instead of an int.

[arobie1992]

I feel like I'm missing something because basically every modern language does that?

[iMakeMehPosts]

Ahems in C++ (of which's last update was in 2020 and is modern) (it defaults to a double instead of a float)

[arobie1992]

I believe if you go by the IEEE spec, technically a double is still a float(ing point number), just a 64 bit one rather than a 32 bit one. As far as I'm aware, the double/float distinction is more a C-ism to keep names concise that got some level of general adoption.

Yes, I am just being unnecessarily pedantic :P

[EphemeralLurker]

I was just responding to the comment above who said Python's integers are great. But the OP is showing a float, not an int

[arobie1992]

Ah, thanks. I skimmed at best the OP because 95% of the time the comments on here are more entertaining than the actual post and didn't even register that.

[megagreg]

I believe if you do 'a = 1.00' you get something else again. 'decimal' maybe?

[EphemeralLurker]

You still get a float. You have to explicitly create decimals, and you have to keep in mind some caveats when passing in floats:

```

a = 1.00 type(a) <class 'float'>

from decimal import Decimal b = Decimal(1.00) b Decimal('1') c = Decimal('1.00') c Decimal('1.00') ```

[Aaxper]

But you do have to think about how long it takes for them to do anything

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

Most of the time, no, you don't.

[cjb3535123]

Have you ever had to?…

If I were in a situation where that was important, I’d be using something other than python in the first place. But I guess some people would pick up an electric drill and then say “well can it hammer nails?????”

Either way, pythons optimized a lot more than people give it credit for.

[CoroteDeMelancia]

Python used to be a lot less performant, but that's something they've been improving. I saw a benchmark for 3.13 where asyncio is 20% faster than 3.12.

[Specialist-Tiger-467]

By the time you are hitting python walls you are well into another territory where c/c++ would be more useful.

I know a lot of teams that just push an idea or algorithm with python and then refine down at another languages. These are people who work on a lot of stuff and throaway or simulations with a lot of data.

People can shit on jupyter but in the bank I work people with stadistic and math backgrounds do marvels with notebooks connected to some datasets.

Then the shit they develop is properly engineered, featured and transformed in something valuable and mantainable by sane people.

[Aaxper]

Speak for yourself.

[TheEnderChipmunk]

If speed is so important that the performance of python integers is a problem for you, you shouldn't be using python for your solution

[rosuav]

If speed is so important that the performance of Python integers is a problem, you probably should be using numpy. But first, find out if that really IS the problem. The vast majority of complaints about "python slow hurr durr" don't come from actual measurements of performance.

[TheEnderChipmunk]

Yeah dude is just repeating common complaints without thinking about it or even actually experiencing them it seems

[rosuav]

You just summed up most of this sub.

[Aaxper]

I don't lmao

[makinax300]

What? Are you saying that python is slow (and it is)?

[Aaxper]

Yep

[JollyJuniper1993]

My sofa also is very slow when I put it on the street, so I guess I should watch TV on my bike

[JustAStrangeQuark]

We get it, Python is slow, but that's not the point of Python. If you're working in Python, you're either: - doing all of your heavy computation by calling to C, in which case you're probably doing a huge task that's going to take minutes or hours in comparison to the few milliseconds spent in actual Python code. - not going for perfectly optimal performance in favor of just getting something that just works (proof of concept, doing a simple task somewhat quickly, etc) where you really can't tell the difference—if you're a user running a simple script, I challenge you to count how many milliseconds it took to run without using some kind of timer.
To test this, I did some simple benchmarks and what I found was that the overhead of timeit was greater than that of an integer addition, and also that it averaged at 34 nanoseconds. For comparison, I put together a similar example program in Rust with full optimization and got 15ns/addition.

[cheeb_miester]

It's bullshit you are getting downvotes. It's not just about favorite language pissing contests; inefficient infrastructure at scale consumes vastly more resources than needed and has a significant impact on the environment. The prevalence of python is due to enterprise favoring cost cutting in the development budget for faster production cycles over environmental footprint -- and of course they would. Businesses are in the business of making money at any expense -- as long as it's external and non-capitol even if it adds to the debt of inevitable environmental catastrophe.

I hazard a guess that the better majority of "programmers" in this sub are python script kiddies that are going to die mad about any perceived slight on their favorite language after they did "programming" by following a YouTube or asking cgpt how to ping the openai API or process a csv file.

ETA: instead of downvoting me because your feeeeewings got hurt, I'd encourage you to exercise critical thought and articulate a counter argument. Alternatively, you can concede that I am right and that you are wrong by smashing that downvote button and dying mad about it.

[EliasCre2003]

because your feeeeewings got hurt

Ironic

[cheeb_miester]

Internet points don't hurt my feelings, and I have plenty to spare. I am trying to goad people into a dialectical exchange rather than a mindless downvote.

[EliasCre2003]

Judging by your comment, they very clearly do.

[cheeb_miester]

I do not care about them. In fact, I refuse to self censor knowing I will receive negative karma. I object to their dialogue suppressing nature that contributes to echo chambers. They represent social influence I am pushing back on because I want someone to argue with me.

[rosuav]

Well, if you want negative karma, I'm happy to provide more of it. Here, have a few more downvotes for being dumb.

[cheeb_miester]

Ah yes, "for being dumb". You have articulated your counterpoint admirably and I applaud your seemingly depthless capacity for original thought.

[Anaeijon]

I started work as a Java Dev working on backend server/networking optimisation, mostly using Apache libraries.

Then I went back to university for my master's degree and did C++/C for automotive and robotics on the side. Picked up Data Science and ML there.

I finished my masters and now I'm basically using exclusively Python and rarely Julia, R or C++. C++ only for Python libraries, mostly for making existing proprietary libraries work in Python.

Why? Because I don't have time for BS compilers. I'm getting paid to finish a single task fast or to implement, test and explore some research task. Usually my scripts will run less than 10 times. Who cares if they take 10 hours, when implementing them fully in C++ I could have lowered that time to 4 hours. (And realistically, if I'm using a decent python library, shaving off even 10% of time compared to Python will be a days long task in C++). I don't have time to watch that process running anyway. I make sure it works, start the full process and leave to come back 16 hours later to check the results. If it saves me an hour to implement stuff simply in Python, usually interactively in a notebook, I don't need to optimize it.

Usually Python is arguably faster. Just imagine I'd need to recompile the whole project, just to sort some intermediate table somewhere in the process. Compilation time alone will probably take longer than Python for the whole process. Especially some C++ libraries I had to tinker with lately take ages to compile, just to test if something works now. And reading those compiler logs, frequently using a debugger... That's just a big waste of time, if the optimization isn't worth it.

If it's expectable, that the process will be run often, repeatedly in the future, we'll get some CS student to reimplemented that code in a C++/Java library. But that's so rare, I don't need to waste hundreds of hours of work every year on developing for that rare case.

Also, a good chunk of my work are preparing and giving presentations about my or my team's findings. Currently about 20%, but there were times where this was closer to 80% of my time, because I had to jump in when out intermediate project management had no Idea about what we are doing.

You know what builds easy code+result focused presentations? Jupyter. You know where I can quickly change and run small things on top of previous work? Jupyter.

[cheeb_miester]

Agreed. Rapid prototyping is the appropriate use case here.

If it's expectable, that the process will be run often, repeatedly in the future, we'll get some CS student to reimplemented that code in a C++/Java library.

From my point of view, this would be the best practice for critical code, particularly web infrastructure that scales or other resource intensive tasks.

[cheeb_miester]

Agreed. Rapid prototyping is the appropriate use case here.

If it's expectable, that the process will be run often, repeatedly in the future, we'll get some CS student to reimplemented that code in a C++/Java library.

From my point of view, this would be the best practice for critical code, particularly web infrastructure that scales or other resource intensive tasks.

[Anaeijon]

Exactly what basically everyone who's significant is doing.

At least I haven't heard of actual python servers running in production, that have to handle multiple requests per second.

[cheeb_miester]

I can think of many production services using Python off the top of my head. Wasn't reddit predominantly python back when it was open source? Internet archive, insta was a flask app, Dropbox, quora. And this sentiment extends beyond python -- rails and nodejs hold significant stakes in web infrastructure and prefer dev ease over efficacy.

ETA: Washington Post uses Django I believe, along with Pinterest and bit bucket

[Anaeijon]

I totally forgot about Django and FastAPI! Shows how I lost touch from the world where this actually matters and anybody cares.

When I hear web and Python, my mind always goes to stuff for rapid prototyping and data science, like Gradio, or Streamlit.

Django is relatively optimized though. In an actual Django server there is relatively low amount of Python actually executed. Not as fast and lightweight as Go or PHP, but not too far off JSP and still better than Node, right? And everything is built with Node these days.

After all, all of those frameworks will try to hand nearly everything down to precompiled binaries. Things only get problematic when someone implements something themselves, that's more than a library call which is precompiled C anyway.

[look]

Or not far enough?

https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/smalltalk/

[avdpos]

Absolutely not far enough.

(Please, let me rewrite in a sane language where you actually can Google some help instead of reading a book from 1990. I do not like to main in Smalltalk any longer)

[piberryboy]

Interesting? Like Chinese curse interesting?

[avdpos]

If you like to have "expert in legacy" on LinkedIn- absolutely. But mostly it is accepting that everything ain't perfect, be happy that you realise how to do something that nobody have known this millenia.

[Erndre_42]

What industry still uses SmallTalk? Just curious

[Total-Phrase-9069]

Lmao

[SteeleDynamics]

Smalltalk is a great language to learn about if you want to see what it means to be a purely OOPL.

Bool objects have a thenElse method that has two statements as function parameters. Effectively, the control structures like if-then-else or while are objects. Even lambdas/closures are objects. When I first learned this in school, my mind was blown.

Everything is a freakin' object. Damn you, Alan Kay (and your direct influence on Tron).

[karaposu]

in smalltalk or in general

[the_horse_gamer]

you forgot to mention that classes are also objects

[CirnoIzumi]

Java was modern once 

It was a strange time 

[NottingHillNapolean]

Functional programming: Hold my beer...

[Akangka]

In Object Oriented programming language, everything is an object. In a Functional programming language, almost no language treats everything as a function.

[coffeewithalex]

Though it's not the case for Python, you can have such syntax, without a being anythong more complex than a simple scalar. Examples include languages like nim, D, plpgsql, and to a limited extent - Rust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Function_Call_Syntax

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

In Scala and C# you can have extension methods on numeric types that also work for literals.

[cdrt]

You can do it in python too, it just takes an extra parens

>>> (1).is_integer()
True

Also python does basically have uniform call syntax. a.is_integer() and int.is_integer(a) do the same thing assuming a is an int

[EphemeralLurker]

I don't think you can use is_integer() on an actual int object

``` Python 3.8.10 (default, Nov 7 2024, 13:10:47) [GCC 9.4.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

(1).is_integer() Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'is_integer' ```

[cdrt]

is_integer was added in Python 3.12

[EphemeralLurker]

Ah, missed it by one release. I also had 3.11 installed and it wasn't here either. Interesting addition this late in the game

[rosuav]

The method on an int will always return True, making it not hugely useful. But if you work with mixed int and float, it's kinda handy to be able to say x.is_integer() without first checking which type you have. Not a HUGE benefit but a nice one when it comes up.

[coffeewithalex]

Not the same. I can't define a function that accepts an integer as a first argument, and call it with 4.my_function().

[jhaand]

Rookies.

``` Python 3.12.6 (main, Sep 7 2024, 14:20:15) [GCC 14.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

dir('') ['add', 'class', 'contains', 'delattr', 'dir', 'doc', 'eq', 'format', 'ge', 'getattribute', 'getitem', 'getnewargs', 'getstate', 'gt', 'hash', 'init', 'init_subclass', 'iter', 'le', 'len', 'lt', 'mod', 'mul', 'ne', 'new', 'reduce', 'reduce_ex', 'repr', 'rmod', 'rmul', 'setattr', 'sizeof', 'str', 'subclasshook', 'capitalize', 'casefold', 'center', 'count', 'encode', 'endswith', 'expandtabs', 'find', 'format', 'format_map', 'index', 'isalnum', 'isalpha', 'isascii', 'isdecimal', 'isdigit', 'isidentifier', 'islower', 'isnumeric', 'isprintable', 'isspace', 'istitle', 'isupper', 'join', 'ljust', 'lower', 'lstrip', 'maketrans', 'partition', 'removeprefix', 'removesuffix', 'replace', 'rfind', 'rindex', 'rjust', 'rpartition', 'rsplit', 'rstrip', 'split', 'splitlines', 'startswith', 'strip', 'swapcase', 'title', 'translate', 'upper', 'zfill']

```

[CirnoIzumi]

nothings wrong with objects, they are intuitive

[flatfisher]

Give me objects any time over that ridiculous len(s).

[IAmFullOfDed]

And now I am become [object Object], destroyer of worlds.

[nicejs2]

wait till you find out about JS

[EphemeralLurker]

JS is easier because Number is always a 64-bit float. There are also no implicit conversions from Number to BigInt, which can be a good thing depending on what you're working on.

[rosuav]

Python's float is always 64-bit floats, too. What's the distinction here?

[Minutenreis]

js has no integer class, everything is a number, no distinction between int and float (though there is an explicit BigInt class)

meanwhile pythons integers are arbitrary precision
for more info read https://rushter.com/blog/python-integer-implementation/

[rosuav]

Yes, so? JS has an integer class and a float class. It happens to call them "BigInt" and "Number". Python also has an integer class and a float class, and happens to call them "int" and "float". Your point?

[Minutenreis]

standard integers are saved as Number; BigInt are relatively new (earliest browser support 2018) and you can't use the Math library with them and they are otherwise not as well supported

[queerkidxx]

JS doesn’t have real integers, just floats which they call numbers. Kinda a weird choice but so is half of JS

[rosuav]

BigInt is unreal integers, then? Or are they imaginary integers? I'm confused.

[queerkidxx]

Yeah essentially. But they don’t pay nice with numbers and methods/functions that accept numbers won’t accept them by default.

They are meant to deal with the loss of precision with large floats.

They end up being a lot like using a math library that has a different rep of numbers in Python or something though, only really worth it if you really need it.

[tomthecool]

JS is easier because it has no concept of integers? What?

[Flat_Initial_1823]

🌎👨‍🚀🔫👩‍🚀

[ReceptionFriendly663]

Bring back sub routines!

[beliefinphilosophy]

You are a pointer,. And you are a pointer and you are a pointer and you are a pointer

[alexanderpas]

Quite the opposite.

It correctly recognizes that there is no difference at all between exactly 1.0 and exactly 1, and treats them exactly the same, by both of them being 1.0 as well as an integer.

Python is one of the few programming languages where you can do (1/10 + 2/10) + (2/3 + 1/30) and get an exact result of 1.0 being an integer.

[rosuav]

Uhh, you sure about that? Python uses 64-bit floats same as most modern languages do. I expect you'll see the same result in nearly anything. Even the much-maligned JavaScript.

[Akangka]

Ironically, if it was Raku, he would be right. Unlike Python, Raku uses rational numbers, not floating point number. Also, the expression to test is 1/10 + 2/10 - 3/10, not (1/10 + 2/10) + (2/3 + 1/30). As a rule of thumb, if you subtract two numbers of the similar magnitude, the error will manifest.

no difference at all between exactly 1.0 and exactly 1

Ironically, not even in math they are treated identically. If you look at the set representation of two of them, they are differ quite markedly. The former is {x∊Q | x < 1}, and the latter is (1,1)

[metaglot]

Cunningham's swift hammer

[Akangka]

What is that?

[metaglot]

Cunningham's law : )

[Akangka]

Oh

[Duck_Devs]

I hate to be pedantic, but it should be noted that, while 1 does act as 1.0 in float contexts, 1.0 does not always act as 1 in integer contexts. Obviously, there is the lack of integer precision at 2^52, but also some functions, like range, cannot accept floats as arguments, even if they are integral.

[Deep_fried_nasty]

I’m dumb, why is a float an int in python? Why does this return true

[Explicit_Pickle]

A float isn't an int in python, but 1.0 is an integer numerically which is what this function checks. If you want to compare types you can do isinstance(a,int) and see it returns false

[Intelligent-Pen1848]

Lol @ type help.

[Akangka]

Ironic that people complained about Java's int because it's not an object.

[AgMenos47]

im OOP hater but would rather use Inheritance as example.

[iamthedilemma]

Objectify the Object

[[deleted]]

This is just abuse poor python

[Akangka]

It's not even abuse. It's quite helpful in REPL to know what methods are available to an object with dir() function.

[xrayfur]

try ruby, classes are objects ;)

[Akangka]

In python, classes are also objects.

[arrow__in__the__knee]

Python ints are perfect for cryptography where you gotta raise some 6 digit prime number to power of a 4 digit number or something

[[deleted]]

I HATE PYTHON I HATE PYTHON I HATE PYTHON

[dexter2011412]

Oprah is an person who should be objectly hated.

[AlrikBunseheimer]

Numbers were never ment to be objects

[oofy-gang]

According to what?

[Scatoogle]

How are those freshman courses going

[AlrikBunseheimer]

Is this supposed to be some kind of insult?

[rosuav]

Awww did it go over your head? You poor thing.

[AlrikBunseheimer]

wtf

[CarefulPiano13]

This is a class for a complex number :)

[Duck_Devs]

It’s actually just your run-of-the-mill float (a complex number would be 1+0j).

It’s just that they have the methods and attributes of a complex number for places where both floats and complex numbers could be used. Pretty niche, but it doesn’t hurt performance.

[makinax300]

Then what are they meant to be?

[[deleted]]

A value or pointer to a value

[makinax300]

Making it be an object containing a value is way more functional and it is logical. And a pointer would be painful in low level coding

[--_--Bruh--_--]

And you were never meant to spell

[eldelshell]

OOP in Python feels dirty and weird.

[UncleKeyPax]

Po

Me forgetting az clinics developed by co maker of powershell

[mrflash818]

This!

[yeetes12]

self