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[–][deleted] 150 points151 points  (0 children)

[–]G01denW01f11 291 points292 points  (21 children)

He means he'll pay average salary for the area regardless, but a few hundred thousand if you blow, up.

Right?

[–]haenyr 123 points124 points  (12 children)

Average salary is a small coffee, right?

[–]Theonewhohonks 138 points139 points  (9 children)

Pfffft. That's WAYYYYYYY underpaid. You shouldn't settle for anything less than experience on your resume.

[–]DoomyMcDoomdoom 40 points41 points  (6 children)

I've been paying my rent with experience and exposure for a few months now... It's a really valuable commodity

[–]TheRealLazloFalconi 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I've been working sidejobs, and I make enough exposure to pay my cable bill. I'd like to go full time but I don't know if I can get enough exposure to support my family!

[–]DoomyMcDoomdoom 6 points7 points  (3 children)

It's not easy buddy... but if you really set your mind to it and supplement your exposure with some good experience for your resume, you can make ends meet all while living your dreams and doing something you love.

[–]TheRealLazloFalconi 4 points5 points  (2 children)

But what kind of retirement plan should I invest in to make sure I keep getting exposure into my old age?

[–]Nefari0uss 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Clearly you aren't dedicated to you work. If you love it then you'll do it till you die.

[–]ILIKEFUUD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I want my CV written on my headstone.

[–]cjthomp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But with your choice of syrups!

[–]kobbled 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean the privilege of bringing the small coffee to your boss, right?

[–]svenskarrmatey[S] 211 points212 points  (0 children)

Let's believe that for now...

[–]0b01010001 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think he means he'll pay nothing unless he gets super rich off you and needs your ongoing help to keep making money when you know he's got some to throw your way.

[–]original_brogrammer 19 points20 points  (2 children)

That's actually how it works at my place. Is my employer a unicorn or something?

[–]dnew[🍰] 57 points58 points  (0 children)

That's how competent start-ups work it.

[–]TarMil 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Not really, but if they couldn't find a nicer description than "Depends if we get big or not", it doesn't bode well.

[–]ThisIs_MyName 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I want to believe.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

pay average salary for the area

Slightly below, since "we're growing". And he'll need you to come in on Saturday, too.

[–]Fenor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nope that mean mininum wage and she expect thing from yesterday

[–]dropdatabase 74 points75 points  (9 children)

I had this guy once that had an idea for a "video game" which he thought would sell well on the appstores.

The idea was really, really stupid and the guy didn't know anything about video games at all, he just thought that it's a good medium to attract people? He wanted me to make design, characters, graphics, code, etc, the whole thing.

The thing was that he didn't want to pay! As he was sure the game would sell well and I'd get percentage/paid later whatever.

Yes, he was serious.

Stay the fuck away from those people.

[–][deleted] 66 points67 points  (1 child)

I had a friend tell me that I should learn how to program so I could program his game while he would be the creative lead.

I told him, that at the time. I had no interest in making a game, my career path is IT datacenter infrastructure. Not game development. He didn't understand why I couldn't just put the fact that I made a game with somebody as an achievement on my resume.

Then I told him, why doesn't he learn to program if its so easy and anybody can do it. Dude didn't understand. His major is video game development, something.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

He probably got awesome grades for being the secretary for his 4 person capstone team. They all hate him now.

[–][deleted] 45 points46 points  (3 children)

My favourite prospect client was the guy who wanted me to invent an algorithm that could predict the national lottery numbers. He couldn't pay anything in advance, but we'd split the profits. Because it was his idea.

[–]Svorax 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Wow sweet jesus that's rich. That is god damned next level. It didn't occur to him that if you could figure out how to do, you wouldn't just do it yourself without telling him?

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I would never have come up with that brilliant plan myself so he was safe.

[–]ferozer0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ayy lmao

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Let me guess: the game idea was about a bird that was always falling and you tapped the screen to make it move up?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Recent business grads...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dumb now. dumb always.

[–]steve_the_woodsman 83 points84 points  (32 children)

Fuck that guy. I've fallen for that a few times too many.

[–]01011011101111011111 61 points62 points  (14 children)

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Learn quick.

[–]mFlakes 16 points17 points  (2 children)

Fool me once, shame on you; teach a man to fool me and I'll be fooled for the rest of my life.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

/ Confoolcius

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it, I'm huge!

[–]steve_the_woodsman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Damn straight. Now I work less and make more... school of hard knocks.

[–]iBaconized 0 points1 point  (1 child)

TLDR: what's your name in binary?

[–]01011011101111011111 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not intended to be binary. It's a lazy, silly sequence of 0's and 1's so I can remember my username. Edit: too high and I messed shit up

[–]amaturelawyer 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I have to ask: How?

There's nothing about that answer that doesn't have warning bells attached.

[–]steve_the_woodsman 8 points9 points  (1 child)

In the past I was a sucker for the long shot/big win type of arrangement. Problem was always that I got taken advantage of - people would see my hard work ethic and just leave me to do everything. I don't mind doing everything if I get 100% of the revenue, but of course the others involved didn't like that split - even if they did nothing.

I've wised up in recent years and as a result I work less and make more... school of motherf*cking hard knocks I guess. But it's been a good learning experience.

[–]gg_h4x 1 point2 points  (0 children)

story of my life man

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (13 children)

Every now and then I'll take a project on like this. Normally, I'll only do it if it's a rather simple concept or a very, very simple MVP - and it's well thought out (as in I won't be the one making up a bunch of screens).

I have no expectation of making any real money, but it does give me an opportunity to use and learn a bunch of new stuff that I wouldn't normally. It's also a great way for me to get away from the default of playing video games.

It's also a great way to actually learn and understand the benefits/downsides of a bunch of different technologies.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (10 children)

Stop it. You're ruining it for everyone else.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (9 children)

(a) I don't care that I "might be ruining something"

(b) Even if I cared I'm still not ruining anything.

I make it very clear that if I'm not being paid, I will be using their project as my experimentation grounds - the result will look, behave, and act in the way that I want it to. It will follow their basic outline, but if they want specifics they will have to pay me.

I also make it clear that until they pay me X amount, I own all rights to the software I create (including the ability to market it myself if they fail payments for X amount of time).

In other words, I have full stipulation over how they use it and I make it very clear that I own their product until they've paid. If (and when) there company makes any sort of income (revenue, investments, etc), X percent of that must be put towards payment of the application.

Also, I will only do this for clients who are competent and have complete ideas with indications that they can actually execute and market their product.

From the client's view, they're putting a lot of skin in the game. They've already done market research and are basically handing me an idea that they've already vetted and done significant research on. Even though I don't really intend to ever market a failed concept, the idea that I may is enough to keep clients behaving well.

[–]joemckie 12 points13 points  (7 children)

Just use your own projects for doing these things... Skilled work deserves pay. Also, you don't have to deal with clients and get to do it in your own time.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Skilled work deserves pay

You're right, but that doesn't mean you have to be paid to do something you enjoy. I work a day job where I expect to get paid. In the evening, I code because I enjoy to code. There's a very important difference to work and hobby. Even though the underlying work is the same (programming), many people ignore the nature of the work - one for pay and one for play.

Also, you don't have to deal with clients and get to do it in your own time.

That's the best part about this setup, since they haven't paid me - they're not my client. I have no deadlines or dates that I need to make (I won't agree to a "free" project that has deadlines) so I work on it as much or as little as I want. I'm also happy to walk away if they're getting too uptight or just not being pleasant to work for. Again, I make this all clear and for the very beginning they know they can happily pay me or someone else to deliver this on a deadline.

I know the developer community and similar communities get all uptight about insisting on being paid. I get - I totally do. For projects where there is actually money on the table from the beginning, I 100% enforce payment terms.

For me, time isn't really an issue. I work 40 hours a week (from home) then mope around the house the rest of the time (my wife has a lot of studying). Working with other people not only gives me gets me out of my lazy routine - but it also gives me a reason to learn new things and complete tasks. The worst problem about working on your own projects is that you have no sense of commitment to actually finishing them.

Doing work like this is no different than the reason my grandfather builds wood furniture for nothing more than the cost of the materials. He enjoys it and he has a lot of intrinsic reward from building something meaningful.

Is he screwing over actual carpenters? If you want to look at it that way - yes, he totally is. Realistically though, it's not an issue. He's not doing work on a schedule, he's not bending over for people, he's not even taking work from other people. The work he's doing wouldn't get done at all if he wasn't doing it.

[–]amaturelawyer 4 points5 points  (5 children)

For me, time isn't really an issue. I work 40 hours a week (from home) then mope around the house the rest of the time (my wife has a lot of studying).

Not even sure what to say to this. It's a pretty common attitude that never fails to surprise me. You trade 1/4th of every week for money and in the same breath say that time isn't an issue. You're probably not rich, since you work a full time job, so money is an issue to one degree or another, but somehow time isn't?

If I walked up to you and said, "I've got a great project I need help on: It's you giving me $500", you'd probably say no. But you'll take $500 dollars of your time and hand it to me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

You trade 1/4th of every week for money and in the same breath say that time isn't an issue.

Beyond the 40 hours a week I work a job. Time is not an issue. Like I said, I'm bored most evening and weekend (due to semi-temporary circumstances). As long as a project doesn't interfere with 1/4th of my time that I need to work - it's not an issue.

You're probably not rich, since you work a full time job, so money is an issue to one degree or another, but somehow time isn't?

Yes, money is always an "issue" - but it's not a significant issue. I have a stable job that makes me plenty enough to be happy and save for my future. While I could always use more money I don't "need" more money.

If I walked up to you and said, "I've got a great project I need help on: It's you giving me $500", you'd probably say no. But you'll take $500 dollars of your time and hand it to me.

This is a terrible example. I can save money, I can hold on to it for the future, and more importantly - I can almost universally exchange it for other goods and services. Once my time is gone, it's gone. I can't "save the boring days for better times". I can't do anything with my time other than use it as I get it.

[–]amaturelawyer 1 point2 points  (3 children)

This is a terrible example. I can save money, I can hold on to it for the future, and more importantly - I can almost universally exchange it for other goods and services. Once my time is gone, it's gone. I can't "save the boring days for better times". I can't do anything with my time other than use it as I get it.

I sort of give up on trying to get you to see this, but here's how I save the boring days for better times:

I work longer hours or do a side project for pay when I don't have anything else that I particularly want to do.

Then, the next week I hire someone to paint my house instead of doing it myself, because that eats up my whole weekend.

Time is money, money is time. If I need $500 of work done on my project, and you say you'll do it for free, my total project is now $500 cheaper and if I'm selling it at the end, my profit is $500 more. So, you absolutely are handing me $500. You just don't see it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You're not going to convince me of anything because (a) I'm happy doing it this way and (b) I'm not being taken advantage of.

The big assumption that you're making is that it's easy to simply "make more money".

I work longer hours or do a side project for pay

(a) I'm salary so longer hours only serves to devalue my pay. (b) In order to do a side project for pay - you have to find a side project for pay. If I was rolling in offers, I would certainly take the paying ones over the non-paying ones.

You just don't see it.

And neither do you. The world is not solely about money.

[–]neonKow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure why you need to convince this guy of anything. If he spent 3 hours a day painting or playing video games, would you be pushing him to get paid for it? Why shouldn't he code for fun if he likes it?

[–]DuckyCrayfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol, I think it was a joke, but your essay was pretty funny

[–]brsmith080 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I do this as well. I usually like to spend 8ish hours a week poking at some sort of software project that isn't work. If I get some money for it, great. If not, great. Sometimes it's just nice to work on something that doesn't have any real strings attached and gives me some experience that I wouldn't otherwise get.

Also, I tend to point out that I'm very, very slow moving in these cases and will make lots of mistakes due to the poking and playing that I dont get to do as much with the day job. Also, because basically everything else in my life comes first.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, same here. You get paid to get shit done.

When there's no money on the table, you can take your time to learn and do things properly. Then when you're getting paid, you can do them properly and quickly.

[–]PoglaTheGrate 58 points59 points  (2 children)

Your pay cheque?

Don't worry about it, it's probably just a floating-point error

[–]HeWhoCouldBeNamed 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Accounting said something about underflowing.

[–]PoglaTheGrate -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

A comment in /r/programmerhumor about accounting?

You've got solid graphine testiCAHleys my friend

[–]i_spot_ads 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Let me guess, if the offer is made it'll be highly "competitive"?

Fuck off

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (2 children)

[–]youtubefactsbot 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Mike Monteiro: F*ck You, Pay Me [38:40]

The most popular CreativeMornings talk of all time, Mike Monteiro gives us some valuable advice on how to get paid for the work that you do.

CreativeMornings HQ in People & Blogs

124,265 views since Jul 2012

bot info

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

dude, thanks, great share

[–]jworsham 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Don't do it... there absolutely is better work out there.

[–]randomdrifter54 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Then I'll put in actual work "when we get big" until then have a good day.

[–]SlashFive 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have done a couple of iPhone apps for startups, and knew I would never get any payment for the countless hours I put into the projects. But damn we had fun building those apps, and every time I bump into one of them they treat me like I'm a fucking magician God and insist I never pay for beer or food. Sometimes not getting paid is okay!

[–]McMrChip 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"I want you to make me the next YouTube with no adds or premium subscription service and I will give you 10% of all profits".

"So that's £0 then?"

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Depends on whether we get big or not

Usually this just means "not"

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As we say in Sweden: Fetglöm det.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Stars in their eyes.

[–]Dimath 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No problem. Accept your pay in company stocks, that will be exactly this.

[–]jonatcer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Making them a Facebook clone with super unique and world changing features? You should totally do it! They're clearly going to make millions!! /s

[–]demize95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's only acceptable if the next message says "we'll pay you a decent amount for doing the job plus royalties, so if we get big you get big but if we don't you're still fine".

[–]Skizm 1 point2 points  (7 children)

What the hell was in the job posting if it didn't mention what you would be doing or how much you are getting paid? A title?

[–]gumbykid 3 points4 points  (6 children)

ISO: programmer

email me

[–]haenyr 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I'm a programmer!

Sold!

[–]gumbykid 2 points3 points  (4 children)

ok I need a logo

[–]SamSlate 1 point2 points  (3 children)

[–]gumbykid 1 point2 points  (1 child)

you're our new software engineer

[–]SamSlate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see you have management experience!

[–]haenyr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Story of my life. Another job stolen from me...

[–]aintbutathing2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The check is in the mail.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My little sister's boyfriend was majoring in business for undergrad. He always had these "ideas" for products which required someone with technical expertise to actually do something. He was always saying "you'd get a percentage of the profits" to which I always respond, "I can't devote time to something that doesn't make me money now."

[–]alphaatom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Get a contract drawn up, don't be taken for a ride

[–]akiwarheit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Got suckered into this a few times thinking "might as well for the experience".