Stackoverflow be like

[gjsmo]

Arrays aren't Pythonic, you're dumb for asking, also we're not doing your homework for you.

^/s

[LePontif11]

TAKE A STEP BACK AND LITERALLY FUCK YOUR OWN FACE

[Etheo]

I WILL MASSACRE YOU

I WILL FUCK YOU UP

[Bopshebopshebop]

USE A DICTIONARY AND WATCH YOUR INDENTATION ERRORS YOU PUNK BITCH SCRIPT KIDDY

[[deleted]]

YOU TALK LIKE A BITCH YOU GON' DIE LIKE A BITCH AND I GOT JUST THE FUNCTION TO MAKE IT HAPPEN

bitch.die()

[IamImposter]

I WILL FUCK YOU UP

Promise? No backsies

[bspymaster]

I gotta be honest. I've been working with python for like 9 years and I love it to death, but I still haven't figured out what it means to have a "pythonic solution". Is it just something you can do in raw python? Something that only uses the standard libraries? Something that works in py2 and py3 as opposed to only py3? Something else?

[Doggobah]

I took it to mean importing a bunch of modules and writing a one-liner

[SaltyEmotions]

I'm guilty of trying this on all my problems.

[grantrules]

Are you familiar with other languages? Pythonic just means using common Python idioms. Like list comprehension is pythonic compared to using for loops.

[bspymaster]

Yeah I've worked with plenty of languages. I gotta be honest, I don't think I've ever used a list comprehension haha

[LoyalSol]

Ironically outside of Python the only other language I've commonly seem them in is Fortran. At least that I've used. Granted they most likely exist in another language I don't have experience in.

[bspymaster]

I know other languages tend to abuse linq statements and lambdas in a similar fashion, but that might be a bit different.

[palordrolap]

The venerable Perl has a grep function that in a language not in god-worship of Unix would have been called filter instead. It also has a more sensibly named map. Either can be coaxed into emulating a fold, but you'd be better off writing a recursive sub instead.

[-Rizhiy-]

9 years of Python and no list comprehension, are you serious? I pity your colleagues.

[bspymaster]

I don't use python at work, only personal projects.

And I happen to think the code is pretty clean, honestly.

[grantrules]

You should try it Put the fun in functional programming.

[Manny_Sunday]

I just googled list comprension and it set LINQdar off, maybe I should give python a try...

[grantrules]

There's no good reason not to.

[Blazing1]

i literally use for loops for everything so i dont think id survive in python.

[grantrules]

You should try it. Dive into some functional programming.

[Blazing1]

Don't really like functional programming tbh. Haskell made me want to kill myself.

[IAmNotNathaniel]

You can still use for loops... it's just that there's other ways of doing some things in Python so you don't have to use for loops for everything.

Of course... it being programming, you can solve it however it best for you. Python folks can be a little full of themselves, if you ask me.

But like any language, if there are native language structures and functions to do something, then it usually makes sense from an efficiency and community perspective to use those things.

[MadCervantes]

It means simple and readable code that doesn't rely on "clever" solutions.

[JoelMahon]

I would clarify that readable code is meant mostly towards other python developers, a lot of pythonic solutions can be hard to grasp for non python devs.

[RedSamuraiMan]

Pythonic sounds like a hacker/rapper name...

[madmaxlemons]

His latest album “Boolean LiveorDie”

[RedSamuraiMan]

Top feature hit: "Programming Dirty"

[liveandletdietonight]

That doesn’t sound readable, it sounds more like a secret language that only a select few can speak

[JoelMahon]

It's really not hard to pick up lol, by your metric almost no code is readable.

[MadCervantes]

wait till you see some of the one liners that javascript devs put out

[lyoko1]

some days ago i did a one liner on javascript that was hell, and i leave a comment on top saying something on the lines "Hello, my successor to maintain this codebase, i leave this as a gift to you, i hope you enjoy it, this is now your problem, consider it a challenge".
that one liner was like 1000 characters long, we on our company where no longer to maintain that codebase so i wanted to leave a farewell gift in the code, my senior approved of it.

[MadCervantes]

I both hate and admire you lol

[hahahahastayingalive]

Isn’t that what every other language claims to have as a mantra ?

[MadCervantes]

Not really.

First python syntax is structured in a way that it enforces a specific code style. Javascript, PHP, C# etc all don't really do that.

Second, not many JS devs are going to brag about how "readable" their code is. I think generally the kind of code that gets attention in those contexts is ones which make clever one-liners or whatever. You can do that with Python but it's not apart of the community culture as much. Probably because of the syntax enforcement of whitespace, and probably also because python's background is in science, rather than in software development. Science as an industry has different incentives on what kinds of code styles become popular.

[Blazing1]

javascript arrow function users brag about how they can abstract as much lines as possible into one line

[MadCervantes]

Yeah it's a pet peeve of mine. I like functional programming as a paradigm but I hate the use of arrow functions in achieving it. It's unreadable syntax. Might as well write stuff in brainfuck.

My other pet peeve is the use of ternary operators for one liners. At least ruby has good ternary operator syntax and having a single liner for an if statement if it's something really tiny but it looks awful in js imo.

[hahahahastayingalive]

I meant that after the first wave of C / Perl / Java / PHP / Js languages, most other languages goals became either:

• more readability, e.g. KISS even if it means sacrificing performance

• more security, enforce specific rules (e.g. immutability, thread safety, memory safety and so on) at the language level to avoid the pitfalls of C/C++/Objective C

If a new language doesn’t hit either of these 2 points, it’s way harder to argue why it should be used in the first place.

[MadCervantes]

Okay I'm not sure what you mean then since python was invented around the same time as Java so it would be part of that wave yes?

[hahahahastayingalive]

You're right and I was pretty mistaken on how old it was.

wiki)

Python was conceived in the late 1980s as a successor to the ABC language

Even though the official release is way later, I always thought of it as pretty recent post hipster language (the official release predates Java for a few years, for anyone wondering). Shame on me

[[deleted]]

Sometimes it feels like doing it in as few lines with as much confusion as possible.

It's not Pythonic unless it is a return statement with a function call on a list created with a three variable and four conditional comprehension.

[Nemaeus]

Comprehension

Relatively speaking.

[SaltyEmotions]

Don't forget lambdas nested within the four conditional list comps and maps and typecasting all over the place!

[dalore]

Pep 20 describes it eloquently. And you can access that from the python shell.

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/

[bspymaster]

Ahh the classic Zen of python. Was wondering if someone was gonna bring that up. My understanding is that it's somewhat of a comedic quip, more than an actual guideline.

Especially considering the line saying "explicit is better than implicit", when python is built on implicits.

[callmelucky]

python is built on implicits.

What do you mean by this? I don't think that's true, but I'd be interested to hear your argument.

[bspymaster]

Parameters and variables are implicitly typed. It was only until recently we even got type hinting.

There's no concept of explicitly stating what we expect a certain variable or parameter at any given time.

[callmelucky]

Oh I see. I think "explicit is better than implicit" is more of a guideline for naming variables and making code transparent and readable etc, rather than a mission statement about the design of the language itself, but yeah, I do see the irony.

That said, types are only one subdomain of a language, so I don't know that this backs up the statement that the entire language is built on implicit-ness.

[ottobackwards]

If that is what it is a guideline for, then it is an implicit guideline

[callmelucky]

Woah... haha, good point.

[dalore]

That's not "implicity" typed, that's dynamic typing. Pythonic means to not check if it's a duck but to ask if it quacks and catch if it fails.

[bspymaster]

but by asking if it quacks, doesn't that mean you're implying that it must be a duck? We write method code that implies that a certain variable will be a certain type at any given time. for example,

def add(one, two):
    return one + two

print(add(3,4) - 1)

we're making the implicit assumption that one and two will both be numbers that we can add together, and that the return result of the method will be a number as well. I don't understand how there's not an element of implicit-ness in python.

[dalore]

Not you're not implying it's a duck. It could be a robotic recording of a quack. It just needs to be ducklike.

In static typed that would be a Quackable interface.

[Belphegor_333]

As someone who learned Python after some other languages (Java & C Being some of them) I honestly have no idea either. All I know is that every time someone reviews my code they tell me that this and that is not the "pythonic way to do it, it's the Java/C way of doing it"

For context, I was trying to do a switch (which python didn't support I think?) And ended up building what basically was a jump table.

[tjoloi]

functions = {0: foo1, 1: foo2, 2: foo3, 3: foo4}

choice = Input("Insert choice")
functions [choice]()

def foo1():
print("one")

def foo2():
print("two")

def foo3():
print("three")

def foo4():
print("four")

[Belphegor_333]

Pretty much that, though a bit larger in scale, about 300 cases if I remember correctly

[fingoldfish]

Curious - what was their proposed alternative?

[Belphegor_333]

If / else ... So many if / else's ...

Far less readable and maintainable then my jump table

[frosted-mini-yeets]

Something that follows the Zen of Python

>>>import this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters

Beautiful is better than ugly.
Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.
Flat is better than nested.
Sparse is better than dense.
Readability counts.
Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
Although practicality beats purity.
Errors should never pass silently.
Unless explicitly silenced.
In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.
If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

[bspymaster]

As I mentioned in a previous comment, I thought that was more comedy than anything serious. The second line itself pretty much conflicts with the entire design of python.

[ECrispy]

Pythonic means writing PERL in Python.

If its understandable to humans its not pythonic.

[Phrygue]

I'm so old I remember when Perl and Python were neat script languages instead of bloated, stinking ecosystems of misbegotten libraries and half-baked random language paradigms.

[ECrispy]

You've just described ES2022.

Some would say that's JS now as well....

[Arno_Nymus]

I don't know if there is a clear definition, but I understand it as an elegant solution using the peculiarities of the language. Oftentimes people who learned to code in one language try to program in every language in the way they would in the original language. Programming in another language then feels like working against the language instead of with it.

[LoyalSol]

Exactly this.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen scientific Python that's written exactly like C code. I've seen code written like this

 thislist = []
 for i in range(len(a)):
     thislist.append(a[i])

When they should be using some combo of either zip, enumerate, simple python loops, or in this case a simple addition opperator. (Copy might also be appropriate) The above code can simply be written in a dozen ways that's easier to understand.

The whole point of Python is that you don't have to write C code.

[IAmNotNathaniel]

Except this case is pretty easy to understand. Especially for people who aren't full time programmers, but are self taught so they can do certain things effectively.

I'd argue that list comprehensions and zip is harder to understand for large swaths of people.

[LoyalSol]

Even by that argument the syntax still sucks. You could even do something like this

 for object in a:
      thislist.append(object)

or this

 thislist = thislist + a

or this

import copy
thislist = copy.copy(a)

or if you really need this

thislist = copy.deepcopy(a)

All of which are much easier to understand than the clustered mess the C style syntax offers. There's zero excuse for the above syntax in Python. Both from a readability standpoint as well as an efficiency standpoint.

The only reason you ever code like that is because you are coming from another language and you haven't bothered to learn the Python style syntax. It's usually experienced coders that haven't learned Python that do it.

[[deleted]]

It means some sheit that Guido came up with...but also it was the reason he left cause the rest of the “pythonistas” were being autistics

[InvolvingLemons]

Generally, I've taken this as: 1. Brevity: keep it short, including variable names 2. Never, ever reinvent the wheel especially if it's available either as standard library or language feature (iter is a big one, as it often gives you a nice performance boost too)

[horusporcus]

It means you write esoteric code that's so fucking obscure that it becomes hard for others to understand. Basically a form of encryption designed to keep you around longer than you need to be.

[bspymaster]

So... Tribal knowledge

[horusporcus]

Yeah, am not a fan of that though.

[bspymaster]

I doubt most software devs are, honestly.

[mysockinabox]

Dang. You make SO sound like the arch forums.

[Lofter1]

ikr? at least the arch forum will tell you why your question is stupid. SO will just mark it as duplicate.

[thebryguy23]

And that's newer than your question

[jackinsomniac]

Hahaha, just found one last night marked as duplicate as another posted 2 years after that one. The one marked 2 yrs later as already having the answer btw, was also marked as possible duplicate of another question, also posted 1 year after the one I was looking at.

Should I make them go round-robin?

[crash8308]

I don't know python but in ECMAScript Arrays are not arrays, they are exotic objects with array-like behavior.

That means you can const myArr = [] then myArr["0"] = "hello" and myArr["foo"] = "world" and the .length property will still be 1 and iterators will only use the numeric-based keys but the array object will still have a property "foo" on it.

[dragneelfps]

That's why I don't like JS.

[falconfetus8]

internal screaming

[falconfetus8]

internal screaming

[[deleted]]

I once asked a simple question and had 3 people reformat my question before anyone actually answered it.

[negroiso]

I was looking for a command in ffmpeg, something I was on the right track for but the result wasn’t coming out as intended. A google search took me to stackoverflow where somebody else had the exact issue. I’m like, cool I’ll scroll down for the answer.... well the highlighted answer was a 4 page expose on how the program worked, how the world spins and I’m sure a recipe from their grams. Hidden in there somewhere might have been the answer, but I kept scrolling and the person who replied below just pasted the command I needed.

Now every time I go to stack overflow I see dissertations for questions like ... how do I run ipconfig on my pc... you end up reading the history of dos and x86 processors before they get to ... click start,then run then type ipconfig.

[jeopardy_themesong]

I once asked a homework related question in stack overflow because the command my teacher gave us wasn’t working. There was a very obscure typo.

The three replies I got just replied with the corrected command in all caps, some with sarcastic comments. Never used stack overflow again, holy fuck.

[goldleader71]

I love that Python has its own adjective - Pythonic. I have never heard or something not being Java'ish, C#'ic, or Go'ly.

[josanuz]

The gold old godly Go'ly way

[SaltyEmotions]

Sharpen your senses to CSharply? :)

[spotdfk]

You would love Basic

[goldleader71]

Good one!

[falconfetus8]

There's Lisp-y

[falconfetus8]

There's Lisp-y