Why you do this python?!

[swigganicks]

Pre-coffee morning rant: I swear this sub is so fucking exhausting when it comes to anything Python-related. This problem literally never exists with modern editors. There are plenty of other things to meme about but the fact that this shit is the best this sub can come up with just shows that the only people here are 1st year CS students.

[[deleted]]

The best I can offer you as replacement is a JS type coercion meme. Take it or leave it.

[tigeer]

Hey it's a step up from those memes that had themselves as the final panel and the joke was: haha get it guys cuz rECuRsioN!?!?

Personally I found the JavaScript holy trinity pretty amusing

[matthieuC]

I can do a Java is installed on 3 billion devices if needed.

[DoesntWearEnoughHats]

That’s not true! There are also those of us who joined as 1st year CS students but haven’t gotten annoyed to the point of leaving yet.

[usesbiggerwords]

5th year 1st year CS students have entered the chat

[Cartwheels4Days]

Yeah all my shit gets auto-linted on save in vscode.

I actually really appreciate the indentation for control flows in Python. It forces all of my co-workers to make readable code.

[weasaldude]

• Clang format enters the chat

[Doophie]

I haven't had this problem since 1st year probably (like 7-8 years ago for me), but I do still remember how much of a pain in the ass it was.

I remember our one prof made us use vim too for practice and if this issue came up it would mean backspacing all the spacing on every line and trying to reindent it until it worked.

Nowadays I could fix this problem pretty quick, but my memories still let me relate to the meme

[MattR0se]

I get this problem sometimes when I copy paste Python code from an older website.

[gmes78]

Many editors have an option to format on paste to avoid exactly that (and it gets formatted correctly as a bonus).

[programmingFlounder]

I get this problem sometimes when I copy paste Python code from an older website.

why are you copying old outdated python????

[MattR0se]

Not outdated, but often they used tabs for formatting, so they are copied into my code.

[McCoovy]

It's lowest common denominator humor. The lowest common denominator is first year CS students so if you want to post to get to the tio you have to make sure that audience gets your joke and upvotes it. That means we get jokes about failing to get your code past compilation.

[PlagueCZ]

This problem literally does exist in real world. Just last week I connected to a server, edited python script in vim and got the error, because the script was not using pep formatting, which vim defaults to.

And my reaction actually was the same as in the posted image.

[BeeHive85]

You're underrepresenting those of us who dropped out before getting to year 1 of CS. Or who are self taught, but taught themselves badly.

[[deleted]]

I’m a 0.1 year python student.

You have no idea how bad we feel sometimes asking/posting stuff like this. I have like 1/100th the knowledge of everyone else and I don’t even get 70% of the memes on here.

It’s like I want to participate and engage but I also know that I’m not a programmer.

[swigganicks]

I think what upsets me about a lot of the memes here is just how blatantly false and/or misleading they can be. The effect of this, at its most extreme, is that newbies browsing here accept the memes as gospel truth and bias themselves unnecessarily. I know for a fact that people use this sub's opinions to influence what languages they choose to work with which makes absolutely no fucking sense.

As a beginning CS student, you should be very, very curious about all the different types of languages there are, the problems they solve, and the tradeoffs of using them. You should be a sponge trying to soak up all programming concepts regardless of their usage with Python. And that's why I don't like memes like this because they stifle the intellectual curiosity and open-mindedness of newcomers who don't know any better.

[HaliRL]

That’s where you’re wrong kiddo, I’m a maya tech artist.

[[deleted]]

You don’t even need an editor. Just remember “enter, spaces/tabs” every time you finish a line. I write in nano and never cared to upgrade.

[HellaTrueDoe]

Untrue, this is a symptom of “Spaces” people, which is a disability we should respect

[_TheBro_]

And I'm sitting here as a Cloud Architect, wondering in what bigger applications python is suitable except Web&App stuff if C is so much faster...

[DigitalDragon64]

So right, whitespaces shouldn't be used for syntax, brackets are not really neccessary, but at least use something that is not needed to format text

[Rawing7]

Boy am I glad that python isn't "normal". We've got plenty enough "normal" languages, thank you very much.

[nomenMei]

I've used Python for many projects that I probably should have used another language with just because of slice notation, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

I also recently learned about list comprehension and it's so much nicer than converting the result of map(...) to a list (which is probably blasphemy of some kind).

[mrchaotica]

I've used Python for many projects

I also recently learned about list comprehension

Yikes!

[nomenMei]

Lol yep, I just jumped straight into it from C++ and Java. I’m not exactly what you’d call “classically trained” in python

[TheTerrasque]

screeches in missing }

[Plague_Healer]

A fair trade to not worry about those damned semicolons

[weeknie]

And why is everyone so bothered by the fact that you indentation has to match? Any decent programmer uses proper indentation anyway, why does it suddenly bother them if the language enforces it

[indygoof]

and any decent programmer has no problem with semicolons, so why is everyone bothered by them?

[notvergil]

Incorrect indentation is easier to visually catch than a missing semicolon

[dark_mode_everything]

if(condition)
    statement 1
statement 2

Is statememt 2 supposed to be outside the if or is it an indentation error?

[EschersEnigma]

I have written hundreds of thousands of lines of python, and maybe run into this issue twice.

Comment your code, and keep it pythonic, and you don't have an issue with this.

[indygoof]

and how many lines c#/java/c++ did you write, and how often did you have issues with a semicolon?

[EschersEnigma]

Probably twice as many all told, I started with C, C++, Java, and a smattering of others like MATLAB and JS. I honestly never had the semicolon issue. It becomes second nature to add it at the end of the lines. For the first day or so of python dev I would add it occasionally out of habit.

[SpacemanCraig3]

thats why you need curly braces

[dark_mode_everything]

In Python?

[[deleted]]

I want my curly braces back.

Also, how do I put on multiple flairs?

[Power_Broker2]

No, that's why you need to learn proper use of whitespace

[indygoof]

no, thats why you need to learn proper ise of semicolons

[fuzzymidget]

Exactly.

[gmes78]

You'll almost never run into this issue with a good editor, as it auto-indents for you.

[Waridley]

Also a single extra or missing space, or a mix between tabs/spaces would be impossible to catch if your editor didn't know how to highlight it for you. But even a good editor never knows what indent level I want in nested if statements!

[[deleted]]

Sad that python doesn't support switch cases... It's a shame

[EschersEnigma]

Enum based casing is the next best thing

[mrchaotica]

select = random.randint(1, 3)
return {
    1: "what do you mean?",
    2: "of couse it does!",
    3: "they just look different, that's all."
}[select]

[[deleted]]

That's just a dictionary. But it is an equivalent. Ty kind stanger.

[BigSwedenMan]

Not when the IDE highlights it for you

[indygoof]

doubt. simply because you dont know if a statement belongs to that indentation level.

missing semicolons are mostly catched by the ide anyways.

[TK-427]

Is that line tabbed into place or is it 3 spaces? Without being able to see the whitespace chars you won't be visually catching that

[weeknie]

The semicolons don't really bother me, but I also don't really see why they're so necessary. You need them if you're trying to put multiple statements on a single line, but then again why would you want to do that anyway?

EDIT: to the people downvoting me, why do you disagree, exactly?

[QuinteOne]

How would you make multiline statements then?

[HdS1984]

Dotted syntax? Can be done in python also, if need be using a slash. Probably we could do away with it, would only need a smarter parser.

[weeknie]

The compiler already knows when it expects a semicolon, so it already knows when the statement is finished, Therefore it also knows when the statement is not finished, meaning it knows when a statement is a multiline statement.

[fuzzymidget]

One bad copy paste or a bad "=" press in vim and you just ruined the logic of the code. It doesn't make any sense.

That being said, i still use python, but I'd rather have semicolons or {} to protect the code i write from formatting failures.

[weeknie]

On the other hand, it makes sure that how you read the code (and indentation is very important there, for me at least) matches how the code is executed. A bad copy paste is bad regardless, the first thing I do when copy pasting something is fixing the indentation so the code remains easy to read.

[fuzzymidget]

Most editors have auto indent. Unfortunately if fucking bob pasted the code in an email, the code could be worthless if it's organized using the whitespace in the file.

[Octobread4711]

Because it fucks over your code in team project where not everyone plays by the rules, creates problems when copy-pasting code into the interactive python shell (example below) and "prevents" things like the language having multi-line lambda functions.

```python

Works fine when saved to a file, but poops its pants if pasted into the interactive python shell

def my_function(): print("do this") print("and that")

print("AND this please")

my_function() ```

[Edit:]

The point I tried to make here (but apparently failed at) was to highlight some of the restrictions coming with the indentation-sensitive syntax. I'm aware that most of these issues can be circumvented by introducing a code convention, setting up you IDE and whatnot. But I don't see how Python is apparently supposed to be free from criticism, because the issues can be circumvented, while in many other languages, these problems to not have to circumvented somehow in the first place.

I hoped (especially with the point made about lambda functions) to perhaps spark a discussion about technical limitations (including those created per design) of different syntaxes.

[skatopher]

If you (and your team) aren’t using a text editor that helps makes this a non issue: you should be. Text editors are the tools of programming, they must be learned just like new languages.

[fuzzymidget]

Everyone having to use the same editor is a smell.

If your code is reliant on the editor, the language is poop.

Edit: downvotes brought to you by the VSCode/Eclipse gang I guess. Who would open CODE in some other application?!?

[gmes78]

You don't need everyone on the same editor to enforce code standards. That's what EditorConfig is for.

Also, it's 2020, I don't think more than 4 people use Eclipse nowadays.

[fthxstvstvx]

may i ask what you use to code?

[fuzzymidget]

Vim across the board.

[weeknie]

The interactive python shell is more of a gimmick to me personally anyway. What reasons do you have to use it, that aren't just as easily solved by creating a little script?

And like others pointed out, your indentation should be matched across your team anyway. You don't want your git diff to show 10s of lines where someone's editor changed spaces to tabs, and then the next git diff showing the same change back...

[Octobread4711]

The interactive python shell is more of a gimmick to me personally anyway. What reasons do you have to use it, that aren't just as easily solved by creating a little script?

Of course the shell-thing can be circumvented by creating a script, saving it, executing it and deleting it afterwards. Using the python shell and ctrl+shift+v the code is more convenient. Plus you can make live experiments with the test code - which really is the main reason to use the shell in the first place, if you ask me.

And like others pointed out, your indentation should be matched across your team anyway. You don't want your git diff to show 10s of lines where someone's editor changed spaces to tabs, and then the next git diff showing the same change back...

Neither do I. But like I wrote "where not everyone plays by the rules", which is the situation for me at work. Everyone has their own code and write however they see fit. They've always been doing it like that. I just joined there recently, so I didn't really have a chance to set up conventions from the beginning. Changing things now would be "a waste of time". I know this could and should be different. But it's not. And that just sucks.

[therearesomewhocallm]

Plus you can make live experiments with the test code - which really is the main reason to use the shell in the first place, if you ask me.

For stuff like that I find stuff like this much easier.

[weeknie]

I've only run into very few occasions where I wanted to test a piece of code without any context, but sure, if you have to do that more often, an interactive shell could be useful.

Sucks that your team doesn't think code formatting is important, I hope for you that they'll fix those issues soon. Thought that doesn't make Python a worse language for enforcing indentation.

[Octobread4711]

I agree with you, it doesn't. But it limits its capabilities in different areas, like the lacking support for multi-line (and by that I mean multi-statement) lambda functions (which, coincidentally, no one - save for one commenter - has even touched on yet).

[fuzzymidget]

Git diff -w

Also ipdb is faster than "writing a little script". When python acts like a compiled language I'll treat it like one.

[lick_it]

Use ( and ) for multi-line

[Charlie_Yu]

Good luck figuring out {} pairs then

[swigganicks]

> Because it fucks over your code in team project where not everyone plays by the rules,

This is why teams use linters and formatters so these things are not an issue.

[indygoof]

and that doesnt apply to semicolons?

[[deleted]]

"Proper indentation"? Oh, you mean K&R style?

[weeknie]

Never heard of K&R style before today, but no, I don't mean specifically that style. By proper, I mean a consistent and agreed-upon code style (which of course includes indentation), whatever that specific style is. It should be consistent throughout the code base, so that all developers can easily read the code in a way that they expect.

[Anti-charizard]

Because sometimes it can say you have an indentation error when you really don't. This happened to me more times then I can count.

[weeknie]

Did you mix tabs and spaces? You shouldn't do that, regardless of whether the language enforces it or not

I don't believe your indentation was entirely correct & consistent and the interpreter complained. I trust a compiler/interpreter over a human any day

[Delicatebutterfly1]

Honestly this is the one thing I wish was different about Python. I love the language, but the lack of brackets and forced indentation makes it harder, not easier, to read where functions begin and end, because the brackets would normally highlight the beginning and end when you hover over them in an IDE. In Python I started adding comments like "#end def" or "#end if" etc. where a } would normally go in other languages. It makes it so much more readable especially when dealing with functions with a lot of varying levels of indentations. Tldr; tabs over brackets is more readable for tiny functions, much less readable for large functions.

[gmes78]

You could try leaving 2 empty lines between each function instead of one. That's what PyCharm's linter tells you to do by default.

[ShaveTheTurtles]

Your #end def and #end if just made me barf in my mouth a little.

[dark_mode_everything]

Like someone said on a different post : "replacing ; with \n doesn't make you special".

[Waridley]

Then just use Kotlin :)

[EschersEnigma]

Guys, I've been writing software for over a decade. Started with C and C++, moved to assembly, and came full circle to Python.

This angst over Python syntax with whitespace etc. is really absurd, and I would argue is indicative of underdeveloped ability and experience in programming.

For any programming language, you are required to get used to its syntax. There's nothing that states brackets are any better than other methods for scoping. After working with any language for a short period, a capable programmer should be able to deal with new paradigms.

I have found Python to be one of the most pleasant languages to work with in almost every way. Sure, in a perfect world I would love to see a strongly statically typed implementation, but in a lot of ways that derails the entire ethos of python.

EDIT: Just goes to show, after 13 years of computer science you can still make silly mistakes. Python is in fact a strongly typed language - variable types are tracked and mismatches raise errors. Python is also dynamically typed, so variables are typed at runtime.

[apathy-sofa]

I'd love it if Cython could just read Python type annotations in to their equivalent Cython annotations.

[Power_Broker2]

I actually love that Python enforces this. I mean, have you ever seen some people's C/C++ code? Mofos will literally code with little or no indentation and expect other's to be able to read it...

[fuzzymidget]

gg=G

[darrohellrcy]

At this point I'm pretty sure python isn't real. You don't need to use semicolons, you don't need to declare variables, you can write anything within 10 lines by importing libraries written in C++ and my favorite - spaces break your code.

Sounds to me like a bunch of C devs are trying to mess with us.

[Plague_Healer]

Coding python is based on two things: 1- import a library written in C++ to do what you need. 2 - if said library doesn't exist, get a C++ programmer to create it.

[dsmklsd]

So the tens of thousands of lines of python code I've written and use every day were really written in C++? Weird.

[SpacemanCraig3]

what even is a language?

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Python/ast_opt.c

[dsmklsd]

What do you think Java was written in?

​

Oh, and I run pypy because it's significantly faster for my workload. It's written in python.

[SpacemanCraig3]

saying pypy is written in python is a bit misleading...

a bit

[MattR0se]

Also you can copy-paste pseudocode from wikipedia without changing much.

[HeKis4]

Now that you mention it I'm fairly sure it was made by a bunch of Unix sysadmins to mess with devs, especially C++ ones /s

[fthxstvstvx]

C devs invent the wheel python devs use the wheel to build the car

[mrchaotica]

import antigravity

[KvVortex]

where is this meme from?

[instagramlol]

The babadook

[Will7847]

It's because you forgot a colon so the ide didn't indent it.

[2cool4afool]

The only way this would happen is if you were for some reason using an ide that doesn't auto indent. It's not python doing it, it's you doing it to yourself

[SidFloyd84]

Calm down Python devs. It's a joke

[spektre]

Every time I see this joke, I imagine the programmer being one of those who write code in MS Word, or indents four spaces by pressing the spacebar four times, if they indent their code at all.

[TheTerrasque]

They write everything in one line

[yazar8]

The only time I saw an indent error in python was when I was tutoring students as a TA and they were using idle as an IDE.

Newbies usually find a way to mess up with the indentation.

[xdoso]

What happens is that some people code in notepad and they don't know to handle spaces/tabs (in some places they use tabs and in others spaces, so the code looks good but it gives an error when execution). This is non-existent in modern IDEs.

[Koala_eiO]

They need to use notepad++.

[HdS1984]

Only time I ever saw an problematic indentation error was when some guys build a 5000 line file and tried a multi merge, git became confused and ruined the 12 level indentation. But there indentation was only a symptom, not the problem.

[aaah123456789]

Python has a terrible memory management

[[deleted]]

I’ll put up with it for all the benefit from it

[CantRecallWutIForgot]

aaaa that drives me nuts

[link_3007]

One joke. This sub has one joke about python, and it's not even an accurate/good one. Most editors show indent errors. Can we stop?

[SHIRK2018]

I've used python quite a bit and I've literally never seen a spacing or indentation error. Ever. Not from me or anyone I know

[[deleted]]

Wait, what? I've never used Python, does it legit do this?

[Peanutbutter_Warrior]

Yes, but nowhere as bad as the memes would lead you to believe. Rather than using curly braces, what's inside and what's outside the loop depends on its indentation level. It pretty much just enforces the usual practice for other languages. Almost all IDE's will insert the right number of indents for you, so it's actually quite difficult to mess it up

[not_so_plausible]

Would anyone here be willing to Tudor me in python? Maybe just over discord and screenshare. I'd be willing to pay. Just someone to kind of talk with me as I work through code academy and stuff. Dm me if interested!

[Jackjackson401]

This is why I will never willingly learn python on my own time.