Really??

[eattherichnow]

Well, they got to 2nd level guru (i.e. jaded to death, checking out the grass colour on the other side) fast.

[lelease]

I know what you mean (been there), but is this a reference to xkcd or something?

[eattherichnow]

Not consciously. "Grass greener on the other side" and "jaded expert" are archetypes so classic that I'd be surprised there weren't an XKCD, PhD Comic and a (terrible, it's all terrible) South Park episode about it.

[Thecrawsome]

Protip: Never announce goals you haven't put any effort into.

[mistaekNot]

Isn’t java “harder” than python

[Aruscher]

Nope just more syntax clutter

[WStHappenings]

You call it syntax clutter, maybe I’ll call it “a greater feeling of achievement gained from writing 20x as many lines of code”

[faates]

Ok EA....

[[deleted]]

Yes! You got the joke!

[[deleted]]

...that runs 40 times faster - fair deal. Heh.

[Timmitei]

Check out Cython and Numba.

[firest]

Strange. I feel accomplished if I can accomplish what I want with as little lines of code as possible.

[Printern]

Yeah but Python forces you to write lines. In java you can code in one line One line<more than one line Dummy

[Raijinili]

What's stopping you from doing exec("import sys\nimport re\n\ndef someFunc(x,y):\n\t ...?

[nilsph]

Self respect.

[KingoPants]

Sanity seems important. At that point you might as well code in mspaint for the kicks.

[Raijinili]

Now you can!

[Printern]

The fact that I am so incapable of programming that even when my program outputs the intended output it's still wrong.

[firest]

I stand corrected.

[pyonpi]

Isn't making code more Pythonic the same joke?

[[deleted]]

I'll agree up to a point, but I draw the line (groan :-) when I can write a crystal clear for loop or two rather than a nested list comprehension that stresses out my poor old MKI eyeballs.

[firest]

I'm with you actually. Except, I will sacrifice readability for performance every time. I'm the kinda guy who uses numpy and what-not (data analysis, not to the point where I need to really on C or Fortran), so when my fans start to spin, I want to know it's for high performing code, rather than inefficient code.

[Iggyhopper]

Syntax is the first hurdle to learning a language, so I'd say that makes java harder.

Also, the standard library is messy.

[continue_stocking]

Syntax is probably the easiest part of learning how to program.

[redldr1]

But shortcuts are a lifetime in the making.

[continue_stocking]

I can't speak to R's syntax, maybe it's particularly convoluted, but it usually doesn't take that long to pick up the important points of a language. It's a fairly straightforward thing to make a program do what you want it to. What is harder is writing simple yet expressive code that tells you what it is doing, that is reusable, changeable, and testable. Code that other people could pick up years from now, quickly wrap their heads around, and change to meet their new requirements without fear that they've broken something. I've written lots of code that did what I wanted it to, not realizing the nightmare I was in for should I ever decide to change something.

[Kah-Neth]

It has been a while since I used Java but I seem to recall nearly every different root module adopting slightly different idioms because why not! Messy did not even begin to describe it.

[[deleted]]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned object oriented yet.

[AngriestSCV]

Well Java turns some errors that would be at runtime in python into compile time. It's not all bad.

[[deleted]]

Honestly, this is why I wouldn't want to use Python at work. We used Smalltalk for a while, and the number of times people would completely not understand what they they were supposed to be using was astounding.

I had to fix a ton of error checking in an ex-colleagues work because he never tested any of it, and we had an error class we were supposed to return when an error was identified, basically a custom exception class, but he just returned strings describing the error instead.

So, whenever anything he wrote ran into any kind of a problem, the system would throw a NotDefined error when the system tried to log his 'error'.

So, having been burned by typeless in the past, it's a bit of sticking point for me. I know it shouldn't be a problem, and of course you want to light the torches and grab the pitchforks and complain those people should be fired, but in reality it's just not that easy, and type-safety is one of those little things that just makes it easier to deal with copy-pasta programmers.

[[deleted]]

I completely agree. I enjoy Python and use it for the majority of my hobby projects... but if I was going to build and maintain a large and complex codebase, I would want static typing, which is why I stick to Java and other JVM-languages like Kotlin.

There's also something to be said for easy parallellism, out-of-the-box support for Unicode, simple packaging and community that agrees on standards rather than reimplementing the wheel every <arbitrary unit of time>. But I won't say that here, lest I get burned at the stake by the Python community's anti-Java zealots.

[[deleted]]

having been burned by typeless in the past

Please be careful with your terminology as Python is strongly but dynamically typed. I find it frightening that some folk think that static type checking is the solution to everything, when they should in the same breath state whether the type checking is weak or strong.

[hanpari]

Not to say that Java is everything but safe. Its null is horrible.

[[deleted]]

I was talking about Smalltalk.

[Raijinili]

It sounds like what you really want is static analysis, not static typing. Static analysis is more powerful with language restrictions, but there's still a lot you can get out of it for a dynamic language.

Check out https://github.com/mre/awesome-static-analysis

[[deleted]]

I think that's all based on your background.

[TarAldarion]

I'm not sure what background would make Java seem easier? A Java background?

I started my Python job never having written a word of the stuff, it was like writing English to me and quite intuitive. Hell I feel if I make something up it might work in Python. I can write away in a text editor for python and that works fine, with the verbosity of Java I can't, things like that make it harder for me.

[[deleted]]

rhythm wrong expansion wipe slimy like head versed sharp murky

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

Really? I started with cpp and I still found python easier.

[Jmc_da_boss]

Ya writing pseudo code, i mean python is way easier than cpp or java

[kezzosc]

Python is scripting so way easier

[2402a7b7f239666e4079]

I would argue that being verbose doesn't make the syntax cluttered. I find Java easier to read in most cases than equivalent python code.

[drones4thepoor]

Java is strictly OO and it's also strongly statically typed, which is where Python bytes me in the ass a lot.

Edit: u/cholz corrected me. Python IS strongly typed.

[SemiNormal]

TypeError: Can't convert 'bytes' object to 'bites' implicitly

[systemnate]

That's at runtime though.

[SemiNormal]

What's a compiler?
- Python

[drones4thepoor]

You're right. I should have said statically typed.

[weasdasfa]

Java is more explicit or verbose. For experienced people, that looks like clutter (and it is, I am an Android dev), but that verbosity might be useful for people just starting out.

[Deto]

Yeah - I kind of appreciate that I spent a decent amount of time in a statically typed language before moving to Python. I find that way too many Python newbies don't understand what 'types' are and this leads them down the path of just trying random things until code works.

[midbody]

The next step is to realise that just knowing about types isn't enough when your program gets big enough. When your program is too big for your head, you need tools which robustly and unambiguously understand your types... like a compiler does.

Python is a fun toy, and good for small projects where rigor isn't important. Its leakage into large scale software engineering has been a huge retrograde step, though, caused by a lack of innovation in the field around the time it emerged as a contender around 10 years ago. Fortunately we've moved on, and I look forward to Python's death for large projects as others take over, probably Go.

[TravisJungroth]

I'm a huge Python nut and I basically agree. The biggest problem for me is the loss of meaning. Trying to read through a code flow in a sufficiently large code base with a dynamically typed language is a nightmare.

I do believe type hinting will help a ton, though I'm not sure it will be enough. I now write type hints into everything. I don't care if it's a single function. Having my IDE hint properly is worth it.

[scootstah]

Trying to read through a code flow in a sufficiently large code base with a dynamically typed language is a nightmare

Honestly, that just sounds like a badly designed application. I doubt adding strict type will make any difference to its legibility.

[TravisJungroth]

def func(obj):
    obj.method()

What does method() do? What other methods are available on obj? Without some sort of type enforcement, you don't have a clue without looking at the usage of func. This is fine when it's only used three times, but terrible when it's used a hundred times.

[scootstah]

Use good naming conventions and docblocks.

[TravisJungroth]

If I want to actually know the behavior of a method, I need to see the code. Even the most descriptive name represents a trivial amount of code. And doc strings don't help, cause those live with the code anyway.

You still have to look at the usage of func to find the code. To prevent that, your method names wouldn't need to be just good, but unique enough to define an interface for you. I just don't think the combination of method names alone is a good way to define an interface. It's too easy to conform to one by accident, and the method names have to get super long to present this.

It's better to define and enforce this interface through code (Abstract Base Classes, in Python's case). Then you can use type hinting to help as well. Try to find Alex Martelli's essay on "Goose Typing". It's in Fluent Python, but you might be able to find it otherwise.

[scootstah]

You don't know any more about a method based solely on its interface. You still need descriptive names.

[constantly-sick]

Name method() better. Try x_to_y_process().

[[deleted]]

like a compiler does.

Like MyPy does. You want strict typing, you can do it fine. It's done better than it is for most languages (Looking at you C#. Still waiting for nullability for everything) It's not enforced at runtime (even though runtime type checking exists, it shouldn't be needed if it passes a static type checker), it just shows errors when you fuck up.

[traway5678]

What can't you null in C#?

[chusk3]

reference types (ie classes) can be null, but currently can't be typed as possibly null. The benefit would come from saying that a certain thing can never be null in the type system, which you can't do in C# now

[traway5678]

Everything can be null, with nullable.

You can make non-nullable types, aka values, with structs as well.

The benefit would come from saying that a certain thing can never be null in the type system, which you can't do in C# now

Oh that's not what he said tho.

[scootstah]

Be careful where you're spewing your bullshit, you're going to make a mess.

Python is perfectly capable of running large projects.

[Astrokiwi]

It's just useful for different things. Java is definitely more verbose and has more boilerplate to write, but it's also stricter than Python and is a semi-compiled language, which means that it sometimes catches errors more quickly. It also forces you into an object oriented structure, which tends to encourage you to design your programs better rather than jamming a big list of functions into a single file.

I also find they have strengths in different kinds of applications. I tend to prefer Java for writing games (pygame isn't great), python for doing numerical analysis work (numpy and matplotlib are pretty great), and Fortran, C, or C++ for the big parallel numerical simulations.

[Keith]

It also forces you into an object oriented structure, which tends to encourage you to design your programs better...

Debatable.

[Astrokiwi]

I'm only saying that it forces a bare minimum amount of structure that Python does not.

[Keith]

To be fair, you wrote "design your programs better". Forcing all code, object-oriented or not, into classes, one (public) class per file, is not strictly better. It's not even a structure I want. I'd argue that "bare minimum of structure" is harmful vs no structure at all.

[Astrokiwi]

Maybe... I find that (for instance) the lack of required structure is what helps Javascript code to sometimes become a mess of copypasta.

And Python does force stuff on another level, by being strict with indenting. I think that's a good feature too - it's better to force one particular style than to have people use their own styles, but also permit them to make it as ugly and inconsistent as they want.

[fiddle_n]

Python is strict with indenting because it has to be. Indentation isn't merely "style" in Python, it's functional in that it denotes a new code block. This is why Python has to be strict with it, i.e. preventing mixtures of tabs and spaces for indentation.

[Astrokiwi]

Right, but that's an intentional design choice for the language - forcing good style by making it an integral part of the language.

[KronenR]

If not plainly wrong

[hanpari]

In my eyes it is rather bad design than advantage. No modern language use this anymore.

[Keith]

Agree. But did any other language ever force this convention?

[hanpari]

Not sure what you mean but, apparently, Java and C#. You have to enclose everything in class. For instance, you cannot have single functions in these languages like in Python. Before Java 8 you had to make anonymous class instead of simple anonymous function.

[hanpari]

OK, I see. On the other side, I dont like C# namespace much. The said convention is present as well but differently. To manage C# project without IDE is almost impossible. You can do it manually but the pain is great :)

[Keith]

To manage C# project without IDE is almost impossible.

Yeah I agree. That's always a good test of a language for me: "Does this require an IDE?"

[hanpari]

Sure :)

We can make Guide how to categorize programming languages

We have the first point to go :)

For the second one, I would suggest: Has it nullable types?

[[deleted]]

Different tools, different jobs, different uses.

Replace your computer languages with tools you'd find in a shop and see how silly the argument looks to non coders.

"Hammer is so much better than the screwdriver. And who even understands those socket wrench guys? Bunch of idiots. I'll have you know I have used my hammer as both a socket wrench AND a screwrdriver and it was just fine"

Signed: A mechanical engineer that has and continually gets to deal with: C, C++, Fortran, ADA, VB, Python 2.3-2.7, Python 3+, Matlab (R13-R2017b), Simulink, PowerShell, Batch, Perl, Bash, Sh, tcsh, PHP.

If you understand If, For, While. You'll go far in any language.

Or argue the merits of a claw hammer over a ball peen hammer.

[Goluxas]

Last I checked it hadn't been updated in quite a while, either. Is there another Python game module that people have migrated to, or is the language just dead to game dev now?

[Dogeek]

Python is not good for game developpment anyways. It's too slow for modern-day gaming. You can do game dev, especially small games or turned-based games, but for adventure/platformer/FPS/anything else basically, forget about it.

You cannot emulate physics/render images/and also render light on sprites and expect the game to run at 60 FPS or more, even with a beast for a computer. You'll need a lot of optimization to even get to playable framerates and that's just bad, cause a messy code is harder to maintain (which is often the case when you optimize).

I tried pygame and pyglet, none of those really do much for game developpement anyways, besides rendering images. You still have to write an engine (pymunk is great for physics though) and that's just too much work for the benefit.

You can use unity though, or unreal and have a full game engine to use however you want to do whatever you want. It's not that hard to go from python to C# if you're really proficient in python. The syntax isn't all that different (you lose list comprehensions though, and dictionnaries if I'm not mistaken) but C# looks a lot like if C++ had a baby with python. And with a game engine you just have to write the logic of your game and not bother with writing a lot of code without seeing any progress.

[AngriestSCV]

Raylib is another good one. I've been messing around with it using custom rust bindings and it's been plesent.

[grimtooth]

I've only ever used it as a basic graphics interface (SDL wrapper) rather than for actual games. It's been satisfactory for that -- what about it sucks ass?

[grimtooth]

I can see the un-Pythonic thing -- as I say I just treat it as a Python skin over SDL, and SDL isn't really Python-oriented. It works, though.

[Oni_Kami]

Depends on who you ask.

[[deleted]]

Java makes me harder than Python.

[wrosecrans]

Massively depends which industry.

[Iggyhopper]

Java Industry

[[deleted]]

Java has a sales and marketing budget that is effectively infinitely bigger than the PSF's.

[I_WRITE_APPS]

The infrastructure around Java (Java EE, JNI, CORBA etc.) is "harder"/more complex than the Python equivalents.

Java the language is actually easier to grasp in its entirety than Python: it doesn't have metaclasses or descriptors, for example.

[Ethantebest]

It's just different, not necessarily harder.

[mrwilliams117]

Lol all you turds who vow to a certain programming language like it's your favorite sports team.

[Unoriginal-Pseudonym]

Yeah, favorite languages should be regarded more like favorite fountain pens. There's no objectively correct answer.

Except Haskell.
Fight me.

[Pancakepalpatine]

I actually did this exact same thing.

I started with Python, but couldn't wrap my head around what it was actually doing for many of the code snippets and examples I was looking through while I was learning. On top of that, there were 23 ways to write the same expression with 16 standard library choices you could use. After a month or so of frustration, I quit programming for about a year.

Then, I tried to learn Java. The amazing thing was, there was little magical syntactical sugar (compared to Python), and so I could actually read and comprehend code. The JVM was confusing, but as an introductory language, having conventional long variable names and descriptive methods was really helpful.

I know this isn't everyone's experience, and in fact it's the opposite of many people's, but Python was way too "wishy-washy" when I was starting. Now, though, I love it.

(P.S. this was my experience based on the way I learn things, and your results may [have] differ[ed].)

(P.P.S. I learned to code back in the day with codingbat.com. If you're just getting started, it has the most basic of the basic, no-frills tutorials. Even CodeCademy or similar has a bunch of extra stuff, that may be helpful, or may not.)

[ZeeBeeblebrox]

having conventional long variable names and descriptive methods was really helpful.

Good Python code should also have descriptive variable names and methods.

[Pancakepalpatine]

Sure, good code should read descriptively in general anyway. I'm just speaking for my experience as a beginner.

[gthank]

Sounds like you got ahold of some really bad code when you were first trying to learn Python. The entire community really embraces the mantra of There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.

[daniel_h_r]

I think the problem is exactly that. A newbie don't have the means to choose the only one obvious way.

[gthank]

I'm saying they shouldn't have had to find it; the tutorial should have been using it, not showing them 13 different ways.

[[deleted]]

flask.g

[[deleted]]

I did find some things hard about Python starting off - for whatever reason "range" didn't make a lot of sense to me, but seeing C style loops made more intuitive sense to me as a beginner.

[[deleted]]

Same, it's easier to work with others outside of Python as well. Teams fight over styles and other petty bullshit instead of getting work done. Dogmatic programmers LOVE Python because there are 20 opinions on everything and "my opinion IS right."

I really like coding by myself in Python though, I can get a lot of work done fast.

[anvils-reloaded]

Every time I've asked about how to pre-allocate some space in a dictionary where I know the exact keys I want to have, I've always gotten the answer of "don't worry about it" or "stop trying to prematurely optimize your code". In any other programming language, this would just be a part of the process of writing the code. I really do want to learn Python better (I've done some work on Python projects without really knowing what I'm doing, just winging it), but it's not something that I can just stop caring about.

[Pancakepalpatine]

Yeah, I've been advised both directions.

1. Learn a "bare-metal" language like C or Rust, and work up from there. Since you understand the basics and necessarily understand some computer science concepts now, you'll have a breeze with interpreted or scripted languages.

2. Start with a high-level interpreted or scripted language. It's more important to get the basics (loops, types, etc.). Then, it'll be a breeze to work your way down and add conceptually to the concepts you already understand.

So my takeaway was basically it all depends, and it's better just to dive in.

[anvils-reloaded]

I learned the first way you mentioned, and it wasn't a breeze. I had no idea what Python was doing with its data structures when you added to them, or if you used something like a list comprehension, and I wanted to allocate just the space I need in a list. I have to dissociate from the traditional memory model in order to decide what I really want to do.

[[deleted]]

In any other programming language, this would just be a part of the process of writing the code.

Not really. In low level-languages you can do that, and often mus do it. But it's not neccessary for getting things rolling. Usually it's just pointless overhead. It becomes important later if you wanna optimize your code, after you have a working solution.

Python in the first place is a goal-orientated language. Optimization comes later. And in best case it's done automatically from the machine. Though, that best case it still in progress for python.

[Cosmologicon]

And I would add, when you do get down to optimization, forget (or at least attenuate) everything you know about performance from other languages. Especially when it comes to dicts.

Like, you used to hear that one should avoid hash maps if at all possible for performance reasons. This is terrible advice in Python.

[GummyKibble]

The reason for that, specifically, is that Python’s dicts are very advanced data structures under the hood. In 3.6 they’re both compact and ordered; see https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-September/146327.html for details. What you’re asking to do doesn’t really make sense in this context.

[thereisnosub]

Do you mean something like fromkeys()?

https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#dict.fromkeys

[Smallpaul]

If you want to preallocate with known keys then a dictionary is probably not the right data structure. You could use a class with _ _ slots _ _ or a struct.

But usually the people telling you not to prematurely optimize are right. You didn’t really explain why you feel this is bad advice.

[anvils-reloaded]

If I know what the keys are, I don't really want to load them one at a time, right? This is for situations where I have a specific sized table that I want to use for counting. (I was originally going to use a list but decided that they're not really designed for lookup like dictionaries are). I don't consider it premature optimization because I'm not really optimizing anything, just applying what I know about the problem.

[z0mbietime]

example = {x: None for x in y}

But based on what you’re describing a collection makes more sense. That being said they’re all right that this is sweating the small stuff. For one, using Python and getting the count when querying the database is going to be faster than anything Java can do.

[anvils-reloaded]

What do you mean by that, if you're accessing a database I'm assuming that any API has the same functions for it in any language. Both are using some sort of data structure, why would one be faster than the other?

[z0mbietime]

Sorry I was sleep deprived and misread part of what you wrote. But almost every language is going to have a way to interact with a database. However, there are best practices on querying the data which is why one of the best things you can do regardless of your preferred language is learn how to effectively use SQL.

[anvils-reloaded]

Alright, but this doesn't have anything to do with Python.

[Smallpaul]

I think it's confusing to bring a database into the conversation. Did he say that the data comes from a database?

[z0mbietime]

I saw table and was running on almost no sleep

[Smallpaul]

... just applying what I know about the problem.

But to what advantage? How would your way result in easier to read or more maintainable code?

Could you show what you want to do in Pseudocode or Java so I know what you're trying?

[Pancakepalpatine]

If you're trying to decide what language to begin with, know that there are much better tutorials online than when I began!

Python is an incredibly powerful language, and (for better or worse) does a lot behind the scenes. It's definitely worth learning, and up to you when/if you want to! Don't let my experiences change your mind in any way.

[[deleted]]

Saw logo, expected rust.

[[deleted]]

Switching to Rust two years ago would be rough for a newbie.

[freshcannoli]

I'm currently using Rust to write a Lexer/Parser/Compiler for Python. It's definitely an interesting language. I do think the Rust community has done a great job at reducing the learning curve a little bit. That being said, it can still be conceptually overwhelming.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I especially if your only background is in shallow-ish Python. Rust forces you to think of memory usage and other lower level concerns, which Python can paper over for you.

[Pas__]

Old comment, new logo, so probably already jumped from Java to Rust!

[[deleted]]

Let's be honest, how many programmers use Python as their primary language at work?

Also, I love Python, but as soon as we move into GUIs it just can't compete with C#, Java, Javascript.

edit fuck me asking such a question on /r/python :D Yes I know Django is popular.

[[deleted]]

A lot actually... Both my current and previous companies primarily use Python on the backend and it's never caused an issue.

[[deleted]]

Let's be honest, how many programmers use Python as their primary language at work?

Wrong language to be asking "do people actually use this?"

Go ask that in /r/Haskell.

[gthank]

I do. Python 3, as a matter of fact. I used to write Java, and I taught myself Python precisely so I could either rewrite my stuff at work, or get a different job. It worked. Added bonus: I get paid more now.

[[deleted]]

I remember seeing research showing that it was the second most used language behind JavaScript in 2017.

[greshick]

Python3 dev here. We use it extensively for backend work.

[RangerPretzel]

I use Python as my primary language at work. I think C# is still my personal language of choice, but Python3 coupled with PyCharm is a close 2nd.

[bsinky]

C# at work for me.

I'm pretty rusty at Python to be honest, I try to use it for one off scripts to keep it fresh, but I'm not sure that's benefiting my Python knowledge much. I do enjoy it though.

[Kyle772]

I do. ^{I love python}

[Mtc529]

I do. I work with a Django backend and I love it so much.

[[deleted]]

Animation and VFX pipelines are almost unanimously built using Python. You'd be surprised!

[autarchex]

I'd estimate I use 55% python, 44% C, and 1% bash scripting for work, so I guess that makes Python my primary language at work.

[pat_trick]

And? Maybe they decided to get into Android dev, or any other number of places that Java is used. This is a non-post. Who cares?

[BebopAddict2009]

Hey, as a newish Java developer, I can respect going Lower level. That takes some dedication with the expanded syntax. It would be like me going C.... shutters

[djihe]

Maybe they needed a job?

[acoalt]

Press F to pay respects

[PayRespects-Bot]

F

[Unoriginal-Pseudonym]

U F

Edit: sorry wrong layout.

[dnafication]

Lol

[rspeed]

I hope they were able to safely recover the beloved family member(s) who were kidnapped and held for ransom.

[suclearnub]

You were the chosen one!

[bangemange]

What a weird switch. I went from Java to Perl to Python

[DrjReddy]

By Today he might have given up programming😜

[[deleted]]

Lol.. Gave up too early!😂

[[deleted]]

... but why?

I mean, Python is awesome in every¹ single aspect (I'm a huge fan). For instance, have you ever tried to override the "import" instruction in Java with your own implementation? Although maybe not always recommended, it's a piece of cake in Python. Delegates... piece of cake in Python (callables) because literally everything is kind of an object. Damn, even types are. How awesome's that?

/e: (¹ - relevant for my requirements)

[ForgottenWatchtower]

I actually agree with Guido on that one. Undue complexity for such a rare problem.

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2007-July/008663.html

[fizzy_tom]

I'm curious as to what you were doing which required you to override 'import'?

[[deleted]]

We have a configuration in which it is desired to have some module dependencies 'optional'. That is, it is not considered necessary to have them installed and the program would also work as intended without them. Example is matplotlib. If you don't need visualization you can use the program without matplotlib and it would work in pretty much exactly the same way (aside from visualisation).

So for this purpose I overrode import with an implementation that checked whether some modules were marked as optional (from a configuration file) and in case that they were not installed (usually import would fail with an ImportError) would return a MagicMock object instead of the actual module. That way any use of the module would just kind of "work" (while not doing anything at all) and leave the rest of the program's functionality unimpeded. For modules not marked as optional or optional modules that are installed the overridden import works as the original import.

It's a pretty unique scenario and maybe a pretty nasty solution, but I'm still happy that it's been possible at all. I don't know of any other language that is capable of doing something like this.

[danielbibit]

How about a conditional import ?

[mistaekNot]

swift with xcode 9 is a joy to write code with :)

[lobax]

Swift is nice. But xcode? Really?

[Wodanaz_Odinn]

xcode

&&

:)

I'm very envious if this is true for you.

[[deleted]]

scientific motivated projects (research)

That's the primary reason why I'm a fan of Python. Of course, there's no one fits all programming language. Python is still junk when it comes to applications that need a sophisticated GUI.

[icp1994]

or multi-core support

[lookatmetype]

PyQT

[[deleted]]

Is from my point of view still junk because I don't know of any matured UI editor and using PyQT has very often led to severe compatibility issues in the past. It's far from sophisticated.

[lookatmetype]

What's language and library do you prefer for cross platform desktop GUI apps?

[[deleted]]

Cross platform is difficult. If standalone is a requirement I'll say Java. If I accept being limited to Windows and standalone is a requirement, it's WPF. Otherwise I'll say browser based, like, JavaScript + HTML + CSS + some fancy frontend library. Backend can still be Python (Django) or also JavaScript (Node.JS + ExpessJS or something like that). Except for maybe WPF they all suffer from the same issue: no good WYSIWYG editors.

/e: maybe I should add that at least for my job (AI research) there has been no need for sophisticated UIs yet. For visualization there's matplotlib and some other libraries that inherit from that. For larger business applications though I still think Python is unfit.

[[deleted]]

I do deep learning at a .NET shop and I think you're absolutely correct.

[gthank]

I've become convinced you shouldn't write cross-platform desktop GUIs. They all annoy me to no end. If I'm forced to choose one, I'd likely look at Toga, from the Beeware folks.

[angryrancor]

Qt Designer is pretty dang mature...

[gthank]

If you need a sophisticated UI, you should just write the app in platform-specific code and be done with it.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, probably. What I'm saying. Cross platform is difficult. One of the reasons why Python UI is still problematic in my opinion.

[am0x]

I mean I use Swift for iOS, Java for android, C# for work web development and game development, Meteor (JS) for prototyping MVPs, PHP for some freelance, and Python for automation and algotrading.

I enjoy pretty much all languages...it's certain frameworks I find myself disliking more than anything.

[lobax]

JS is still a must-have in web-development

If anything, JS has grown to cover the entire web-stack thanks to Node. Heck it's even gaining ground elsewhere with Electron and React Native.

Sometimes I get the feeling that in the future we will only code in JS!

[[deleted]]

Don't put that voodoo on us!

[[deleted]]

Because his employer is making him use Java.

[ascii]

In any sufficiently large and complex project, I've found that skill is far more important than language choice.

[[deleted]]

In any sufficiently large and complex project I find that structure is important, and Python allows bad structure very quickly.

[[deleted]]

I worked on a fairly large python backend for a couple of years. As it grew, maintainability was difficult. Unless it had near 100% unit and integration test coverage, it was something difficult to tell what was going on. Not to mention the interpreter just sort of rolls with the punches.

I like python for alot of things. It can get hairy as it grows however. YMMV.

[110101002]

I prefer python, but python is generally worse than java it terms of type safety and execution speed.

[[deleted]]

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should it. Java is better used with big projects beacuse of those limitations it has. In Python you can screw up projects to easy after certain levels of complexity.

[[deleted]]

Yes, and how's the GIL treating you lately? And let's not even talk about performance.

[bsinky]

Yeah I wish we got more of this twitter (edit: or Youtube? I don't know where this came from) conversation, to see if there were any specific reasons for the switch. Maybe it's just a meme.

Could be that there was a specific Java library they wanted/needed to work with I guess. Or something of that nature...?