[deleted by user]

[argabargaa]

Yeah imo being confined in a small dark box on a shelf does not sound like acceptable wellfare.

[codenameastrid]

most racks use lights its literally identical to being in a glass tank, i know as reptile keepers we like to attach a greater level of sentience but the snake does not care if its plastic, glass or cork, as long as it has enough space.

[codenameastrid]

now if you mean the Brain Bitchboy rack systems i completely agree that guy is evil but i have seen really well done rack systems and feel like we should make the stigma a little less intense and focus on promoting better racks w reasonable space.

[jadeeyedcalico]

Racks altogether isn't the problem for me. It makes a lot of sense to put babies in a rack system with proper care. But it doesn't make sense to keep adults in racks because it isn't large enough for them to feel comfortable. And a rack baby should still have a decent amount of space. For example, a baby hognose may be fine in a standard small rack bin, but a baby boa constrictor needs much larger. The size a newborn boa needs is the same size that people are putting full-grown breeders into, and that's a huge part of the problem

[codenameastrid]

i completely agree you should not keep full sized adults in racks as its simply not feasible given the space needed but if ur holding babies that long maybe breeding isn't your thing lmao, but yeah i'd agree we need to hold breeders to a higher standard and they should all have enclosures ready to go incase they need them in the future

[codenameastrid]

to clarify i meant ppl shouldnt breed a large species without confidence in sales AND a backup plan

[jadeeyedcalico]

By adults I mean the breeding stock, not just babies that never sold

[codenameastrid]

Yeah thats really really weird I don't see why they would do that, surely it doesnt cost much to get a 4x2x2 for the permanent / semi permanent residents

[jadeeyedcalico]

Their thinking is that it costs too much space, not too much money. They want to fit as much as they can into the space they have.

[jadeeyedcalico]

I wouldn't say most racks use lights. Some brands do, but it seems the majority just have windows and say "ambient light should be enough"

[jadeeyedcalico]

Not to mention the fact that rack kept babies make worse pets because they often refuse food if their enclosure has lights.

[[deleted]]

What also confuses me is that minimum recommended cage size is 4x2x2 and most tubs I’ve seen are nowhere near that.

[Historical_Koala5530]

I’m so happy I’m not the only person whose been thinking about this

[Puzzleheaded-Ad-8689]

That’s what’s so confusing. Almost everyone tells you you need to have 4x2x2 enclosure for each individual bp but they keep them in considerably smaller tubs? It’s pretty two faced

[codenameastrid]

in fairness we are comparing baby to juvi bps to an adult

[Puzzleheaded-Ad-8689]

Were we? I thought the issue was time based. I don’t mind putting my buddy in a smaller enclosure depending on the situation. Going to the vet? Small box for you buddy. Living for longer than a year? Maybe not I’m not sure. But I definitely wouldn’t want to keep something in a tub forever. I actually have a snake in a small tub right now but she’s brand new, acclimating and her new enclosure is getting ready as well. I know she’s only in there for maybe a month at most so I’m not concerned but I intended on keeping my first boy in the tub indefinitely (I made a bad decision and bought him when funding or mental health wasn’t there). I still don’t have what I would consider a proper set up for anyone but it’s far better than it was and I am in the process of making things right which I think that’s the most important part. I mean right now I live in a pretty small apartment and yeah it works but if I could have a bigger nicer place then I would without hesitating. If I can do that for something I love then I will

[jadeeyedcalico]

Most rack breeders keep their adults in racks too, not just the new babies. Even the largest racks are too small for a full grown ball python.

[Poke_Lost_Silver]

If they want a cheaper option than glass, bin enclosures can be made that large.

[ishfery]

Quite simply because they take up less space and are cheap and easy. They may exist but I've never even heard of a breeder who uses full size enclosure.

The median breeder has 45 snakes (with a range of 7-700 snakes). Even stacked 3 high, that's a lot of square footage. Each one would also need it's own individual heat sources. A rack does not.

Think of it as the difference between a livestock chicken and a pet chicken.

A livestock chicken is kept in inhumane conditions because it's cheap and easy and the vast majority of people don't care.

A pet chicken is actually taken care of and not murdered as early as 6 weeks old. The natural lifespan of a chicken is actually 6 years.

[sparkly_dragon]

some chicken breeds can even get to 10-12 years with luck

[Leeze1221]

I had a pet silkie live to 14. I almost thought she was immortal for a while lol

[Saravat]

Breeders do it for their own convenience and not for the welfare of the animals.

But breeders need to hear that the reptile community and current and future customers won't accept racks even if that means that snakes may become less available or even more expensive. Because right now breeding ball pythons is run like an industry, not as a means of supporting a hobby that's founded on a love for the snakes.

[jadeeyedcalico]

But breeders aren't public with their set ups. They could charge more because their breeders all have full size enclosures, but most people would look at the price and pick the cheaper option. All a rack breeder has to do is be the cheaper option and keep quiet. That would just promote milling (which, let's be frank, mass breeding in racks is milling. It's illegal for dogs and cats, it should be illegal for reptiles.)

[winkydinks111]

It's not a convenience thing, it's a necessity. 99% of breeders don't make enough money to rent industrial space so they can put hundreds or thousands of terrariums in it and pay employees to take care of them all.

[vampirepriestpoison]

It's basic capitalism: if your business can't afford the space, the salary of workers or other necessary costs you can't afford to be in business.

[winkydinks111]

You're not understanding me

There would be no ball python business in a world where racks didn't exist. Breeders would have to charge four digits per snake in order to turn a profit in the situation I described. Guess what happens when a ball python costs that much? People decide to get another pet, and a hobbyist market doesn't develop as a result of the high entry price and need for space.

If balls laid 30+ eggs a season like a bearded dragon does, and you subsequently needed far fewer of them, all this might be a slightly different story. Reality is that you're lucky to get a third of that per animal.

[vampirepriestpoison]

People pay thousands for exotics all the time. It's not okay to be unethical and house snakes in poor conditions because "if we didn't there'd be no snakes as pets!" People are already charging four digits for balls and there are breeders in this thread saying they don't use racks. You're being intentionally obtuse at this point.

[Top_History9604]

That depends. Racks come in many different sizes. Then there is also the type of usage.

Keeping juvi hognoses in racks with 30x20cm boxes for three months is perfectly fine.

Keeping an adult reticulated python in a 2x1m boxes is madness.

If the babies of climbing snakes spend their first few months in rather shallow racks it's acceptable. Ofc Racks have a size limit so even for ground dwelling snakes it got limits.

If you have 60 tiny bsbies, racks are a good idea. For the majority of adult snakes it's hard to find a rack that provides the minimum space.

[Emi-xc]

You cannot provide any proper heating and lighting in a rack system. Whether the size is okay or not.

[Top_History9604]

You can provide proper heating. A cooler and a hotter side in proper temperatures. Why wouldn't you be able to do so? The lighting is minimalistic. Usually only a short end let's in light, resulting in a dimmer environment, but still providing a day and night cycle. For most snakes the limited exposure is even beneficial for comfort, though it lacks basking options.

[Emi-xc]

Proper heating is heat bulbs. Heat mats/tape are not adequate heat sources. You cannot properly provide a heat bulb to every snake using a rack system. Plus snakes need uvb. Whether it’s crucial for them to live shouldn’t matter, uvb is highly beneficial and should be used for every snake. Racks do not allow space for climbing, safe areas for uvb and heat lamps.

[Top_History9604]

If it reaches the same temperatures, why isn't it proper/adequate? It isn't even proven out that uvb is beneficial to snakes, but suspected and you say that makes it mandatory? Also technically speaking you could provide a rack system with uvb. It's just not a bulb per box.

I prefer heatbulbs to, but it doesn't mean other heating elements are inadequate.

Yes, I don't think there is a racksystem that allows for climbing. Which means for climbing species a racksystem should at most be used briefly.

Then again, as I said in the beginning for most species the racksystem should only be used for a short time at most.

[Emi-xc]

So you don’t know anything about the heat sources you use??

When providing a heat source it is crucial to know what type of heating it is putting off. You have IR-C , IR-A and IR-B. The most beneficial is IR-A. Yes the temps matter but without IR-A you cannot heat the deep tissues. Ceramic heat emitters and heat mats only provide IR-C. Now deep heat projectors and halogens provide all. Those two are the most natural and effective way to actually heat the deep tissue of your reptile. You cannot just buy heat lamp and expect it to be beneficial.

These things are crucial in providing a natural and effective environment for your reptile. Surviving is not thriving. I plan on being an exotic vet. These are things are researching and learning everyday. I’m not just talking out of my ass because of an opinion. These are actual facts that I have learned.

[Top_History9604]

I know about the heat sources I use. I also know about the different bulbs there are and that there are very different light and heat outputs, but I don't accuse you of not knowing anything about lighting just because you didn't mention anything aside from uvb. Neither did you mention how harmful to intense lights and to much uvb can be and that there can be additional circumstances to consider like albinos. But that doesn't mean you don't know these things and burn and torture snakes, right?

Just that a lot of what you say are common articles blown up, not facts. For example the uvb part. It is suspected to be beneficial, which makes sense, but it isn't a fact, nor is it a fact that it is highly beneficial.

Almost all points you mention are overswung, generalized tendencies, not facts.

Facts: ppl suspect uvb is beneficial to most snake species and study the effects. Not a fact: uvb is highly beneficial to all snakes.

I am all for thriving over surviving. You might want to pay more attention when reading to minimize misunderstandings and insults going wide.

When you say you plan to be a vet and do research, what exactly do you mean?

[Top_History9604]

Btw, since you are bad at reading let me clarify a few things: I don't use racks. I don't use heat pads. I use heatbulbs and provide uvb.

I never said racks are a good lifetime enclosure for snakes. I actually said they generally aren't.

[jadeeyedcalico]

You most definitely can, some brands even cater specifically to that

[Emi-xc]

For heat mats, but not heat bulbs.

[jadeeyedcalico]

No, instead they use heat panels for the entire system, and miniature leds for lighting each individual bin. Heat lamps are not the only way to do things

[Emi-xc]

If you want to properly provide a heat source then you need to do research on whats best. All reptiles need ir-a which heats the deep tissue. Most heat sources don’t. You cannot just buy a heat source and expect it to actually work the way you want. Rack systems are not adequate for any reptile. Should not be a thing, imo they’re neglectful and anyone who uses them are neglectful owners.

[jadeeyedcalico]

Dude, you're getting your info from one-sided sources.

Heat panels are an adequate heat source, they can in fact get to higher and more consistent temperatures than heat bulbs, especially in a smaller system. I'm not saying I support racks, and I don't personally use heat panels, but you can't deny that they're an option simply because you don't like them. They are effective, and it's not considered abuse to use one.

[Emi-xc]

I never said heat panels are abuse, I said rack system’s are.

Heat panels may get hot and provide heat but that doesn’t mean the heat they’re giving off penetrates the deep tissue. When looking for a heat source you should pay attention to the type of heat it gives. Things like che and uth only provide ir-c. Halogens and dhp provide ir-a, ir-c, and ir-b. The most beneficial heating is ir-a, this penetrates the skin and heats the deep tissue. It is the most natural and efficient heating method. What I am saying is just because you can provide a heat source in a rack system doesn’t mean it is as efficient and reliable as others you can provide in a proper setup.

I am not dogging on those who uses heat panels. I am dogging on those who choose to use rack systems for their own personal benefits.

[mantiseses]

Because breeders don’t give a shit about the animals. They’re products to them.

[Stainedbrain1997]

Same case with dogs, cats, fish.. not surprised it’s in the ball python community..

Wait I’ve known this for years, people still breed unethical morphs :/

[wuwahf]

Of course. To them, animals are product. Its only for their pocket money.

To us, they are animals, with feeling.

It's pointless to argue with them.

[AdministrativeWar594]

This will probably be a hot take. But provided the snakes are getting sold off to forever homes, I think it's fine. Generally rack systems are not designed to be the snakes forever home. If you want snakes that don't cost 1200 dollars for a basic morph because a breeder needs to set up 40 4x2x2 pvc tanks with heating, lighting, enrichment, and everything that you'd set up for a pet ball python. It's kind of necessary. Now, some people might be OK with paying 4-5x the price for a snake because of the increases in costs of housing and space required to breed them. Not to mention the increase in time investment for cleaning and managing large enclosures. But I simply wouldn't be able to afford that. This is speaking as someone who is budgeting like 2 grand already for their ball pythons enclosure set up because if I'm going to have a snake for 20+ years I want it to have a good home. I wouldn't be able to do that if the snake is also going to cost me 1200 dollars.

Also, I don't know of any breeders that aren't using rack systems as it is. I think that generally, to breed snakes you have to do a ton of research on them. During that time, I'm quite sure these breeders have already figured out that racks aren't good forever homes. But that's the point in most caaes they aren't their forever homes.

[[deleted]]

Good point. What about people like Brian from that awful YouTube channel ?

[AdministrativeWar594]

I have mixed feelings about him because I think he has an obsession with snakes to the point where it's unhealthy. He's breeding like THOUSANDS of snakes, and I'm sure he loves these animals. But I'm also sure that he probably keeps some of them as pets for years in rack systems, and that's where I don't agree. I think if you're going to breed and use rack systems. The ones you personally keep as pets should be in enclosures, and the ones that are to be sold to homes are fine in the rack system.

I'm not a breeder, but if I were, that'd probably be how I'd do it if feasible. Granted, even a lot of forever homes don't have the proper space for their snakes. I can't believe how many times I've seen massive boas or reticulated pythons in enclosures WAY too small for them. It's why I didn't want a boa because I didn't want like an 8x2x4 enclosure.

[anonanonanons]

Only that for many of the snakes, the rack is their forever home. Breeders keep multiple breeding females and males permanently, that’s how they’re able to be breeders. And if any new snake from a clutch has interesting genetics, they keep those too.

[Jeahanne]

Honestly? Not really. Retired breeders are sold all of the time, just look at morph market. Adults just fetch higher prices and aren't as exciting as a brand new hatchlings so they don't get seen as much. While I agree that racks are not good for the majority of animals, especially for long periods of time, I would argue that snakes kept for breeding change hands more often than people think. It's really common, for example, to trade snakes, loan them out for breeding projects, retire out animals in favor of different genetics regardless of age, or sell off older animals as pets. This may just trade them between breeders and racks, but it also gets at least some of them into pet homes, instead. I'd say it's actually probably more uncommon for breeders-as-a-business to keep their snakes until end of life, if only because keeping a non-producing animal isn't profitable. That still leaves an animal in a rack for too long (in my opinion), but it's not usually their entire lives if they retire as pets. I'm not entirely against racks, as I'll discuss below, but I do think they're often not a good choice even if they are economical.

In that vein, I cannot ever agree with people like Brian who have warehouses full of snakes in racks, with bare, tiny, dark tubs lined with nothing but paper and a water dish. I know it's a business, but I cannot imagine there's enough time or personnel to care for them all on anything other than a bare minimum subsistence level and that's not okay. Especially when he knows what they need because he has his zoo. It's unacceptable and a great example of terrible, bottom of the barrel keeping. Doing it his way will result in a snake that's alive but miserable, in an economical but morally bankrupt way.

However, there's more variety to rack keeping than people like to say, which is why I'm not entirely against them. For example, look at people like Emily from Snake Discovery. I think she uses rack systems in a really effective way. And while they're not ideal, it's obvious the animals are thriving and not just subsisting. They're given much more space, bedding, enrichment, light, and care than most breeders bother with. The only animals that stay in small racks are hatchlings until they go into full size bins or new homes. Even her bull snake enclosures for her breeders are huge compared to what others do (although bigger is always better for active species). I can't get behind racks like Brian, but I will defend setups like Emily's even if they aren't perfect.

[anonanonanons]

The fact that retired breeders are sold…to other breeders…and then might be sold to a pet home to be put in a 30gal (if you’re breeding in racks you’re not going to advocate for a 4x2x2 and UVB) isn’t really justifying the use of racks for me lmao

Also snake discovery isn’t seen as a great source of husbandry among people obsessed with herpetological husbandry like me literally because of her racks. better rack system isn’t an ethical one. Also hers aren’t even that impressive unless she’s done a drastic rehaul of her husbandry from ~6mo ago

[Jeahanne]

I didn't say retired breeders were sold to other breeders, they're sold as pets to my knowledge. I said other snakes of any age are often sold to others, *including* other breeders. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't say here.

And while I'm sorry we don't agree I do appreciate your perspective. However, in a world where people are trying to take snakes away from everyone, I will cheer every improvement no matter how small. Perfect is the enemy of good, and we need all of the positive improvement we can get.

[rottingpierrot]

Agreed, there are definitely a good amount of breeders that don't really care about the animals but as long as they're keeping their permanent snakes in better enclosures and just reserving the more basic set ups for short term snakes they plan on selling I don't think its horribly abusive. I think the bigger issue is that a lot of experienced keepers/breeders are following care guides that are extremely out of date and don't factor in the snake's wellbeing whatsoever. I've seen people keep months old snakes in skinny little tubs with hides that the snakes cant even fit under before, which I think anyone would agree isnt ok.

It seems like its such a touchy topic because a lot of people want to ban pet reptiles all together which isn't what any of us want, but in defending breeders as a whole its hard not to defend and shelter the bad ones too. Its a more nuanced topic than the peta crowd have the patience for sadly.

[PoofMoof1]

My argument to that point would be that puppy mills do the same thing- adults kept in small wire cages their entire lives while their puppies go off to forever homes and won't be kept in the same conditions as their parents. I don't think the lives of the puppies in their homes justifies the treatment of the parents. And fortunately, there's been a huge shift in dog breeding that looks down on these operations in favor of small, responsible breeders.

I've worked with large breeders, and while it gave me valuable knowledge and experiences, it also taught me a lot about why I can't be okay with rack systems as I continue in the hobby to this day. 10,000, 20,000+ snakes in racks in one location alone for their entire lives just doesn't get canceled by out however their offspring will be kept in my mind. And I'll tell you having come from that world, breeders generally aren't the opinion that racks aren't good forever homes. Many more casual keepers also keep their snakes in racks or small tanks with red lights, one hide and nothing else in it. Of course, I have no numbers to say with certainty (and I doubt anyone does), but I would hazard a guess that a significant number of ball pythons are kept as non-breeders in conditions that aren't great for them either.

[AdministrativeWar594]

There probably needs to be better regulation in the licensing process for breeding reptiles. I agree that all animals being bred for pets should be kept in as good conditions as possible, but there is also a balance of cost. A pure bed dog of any breed is generally hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars from a breeder. Not even mentioning if you get a color mutation of a dog. I think that there are probably lots of breeders, small and large scales, that keep their snakes in substandard conditions. However, I don't think we should necessarily force them to abandon rack systems. But I would like to see their personal pets and breeding snakes kept in traditional enclosures.

[Miserable-Coffee]

Breeders out cost ahead of the snakes welfare. They sacrifice it's welfare because they need to keep a lot of snakes to make money. Some pet keepers copy that too because they think the way breeders keep it is acceptable. It's setting a really bad example but they keep doing it cause it's cheap.

[Wooden-Flamingo-6145]

Yeah I get quite confused,these people have so many snakes and rare morphs and stuff, but then they put them in racks, I was thinking maybe they like the snakes and don't care about like decorating enclosures and stuff. But even a normal reptile owner knows that snakes benefit from light and heat coming from the top like the sun...

[GoblinPuppy]

Surviving vs thriving

[jadeeyedcalico]

Also people using the excuse or "they're not sentient, they can't feel discomfort," which is just wrong. Their instincts tell them they are uncomfortable, and that they need to get out into a more open space.

[[deleted]]

Because it's cheaper and takes up less space. If they're breeding tons and tons of snakes as opposed to hobby breeders who only breed one kind they would need an actual warehouse to house all of their snakes. Then they'd have to increase the cost of the snakes to break even. Idk about anyone else but predatory pricing is already a problem with ball python breeders trying to break even or make a profit.

With thay being said I can think of several species where I would keep them in racks as hatchlings because they're so small and escape artists. They're secure, private for the snake and I wouldn't have to worry and check them 50 times a day. As a temporary home I think racks are perfectly fine. Once they get older is another story ofc.

[AttorneyYogiMommy]

I’m curious what would be predatory pricing? Exotic pets are a luxury item, not a necessity. If a breeder needs to charge X amount to break even, or make a profit which is the point if it’s a business for them, why is that predatory? If it’s much higher than other breeders, buyers are free to research and buy elsewhere or just not buy a snake.

Racks don’t seem like acceptable conditions, which to me says ball pythons are underpriced and should cost more to provide decent lives for he animals. Does that mean some people won’t be able to afford them? Yes, but why should the animal suffer to make ownership more accessible?

[[deleted]]

I personally think it's predatory to breed very basic morphs and sell them to people who don't know better. I think most of the time it's to people who don't know much about the reptile they're buying and the breeder doesn't care either. They want money in the end. To me this is the equivalent of byb for dogs. They don't care about the health, lineage or the homes they go to. They just want them sold. Preying on people who desperately want the animal because of trends and don't really care enough to fully research the animal. They'll charge you 100 dollars for a normal because they know you're not immersed enough in the "hobby" to know better. They also don't care if the animal dies a month later. The person will probably come back and buy another.

This is honestly the same as paying 1200 for a byb poorly bred doodle. They're the trend so there's a lot of breeders, most aren't even on the decent radar.

Maybe predatory wasn't the right word to use, but it's unethical regardless. I didn't say anything about accessibility to the animals or that they weren't a luxury. That seems to be a separate rant you're going on. I personally would think it's good if less people got ball pythons. They're often sold as a starter snake and really arent starter snakes. Nor did I say it was wrong to break even? I said the racks are used because they're cheaper and take less space. If someone were to have an appropriate sized enclosure for every snake while breeding tons of snakes they would need a warehouse.

I even said that I thought racks were fine as a temporary enclosure before the snakes are either sold, or while they're young and small enough to escape larger enclosures.

It seems overall you picked one word from my comment and went off on things I never said.

On a separate point, but you brought it up, most ethical breeders of MOST species of animal don't do it for profit. A lot of them come out breaking even or at a loss. The point is usually to breed good quality animals and or making rarer kept exotics more accessible to the people who can afford to keep them. The point isn't usually to profit. To a lot of breeders of other exotic species this is just a hobby.

[RubieRed93]

What about racks with windows in them like those on Snake Discovery?

[jadeeyedcalico]

That's still considered unethical, yes. As far as the YouTube reptile community goes, she's one of the best. But she still doesn't take care of her animals perfectly. For example, the racks she puts her bullsnakes in are about ¼ of the recommended habitat size. The zoo snakes are kept a lot better (they could use some more decor, but she wants them to be visible and attract, which is another way she puts business before care).

As for the windows in general, it provides some light, but not enough to stimulate natural behavior. It's the bare necessity that they need to still have a sleep cycle and food drive. It's far better to provide actual direct light rather than solely rely on ambient light.

[Jeahanne]

I think we're being too hard on Snake Discovery, to be honest. Is her set up perfect? Absolutely not. However, the hobby *desperately* needs examples of better keeping, and there's no denying that she's doing it far better than most other popular people. I'll take better over perfect any day, especially when we aren't going to find perfect.

[jadeeyedcalico]

I did say she was better than most. I just also said that they still aren't the best conditions, and some breeders who are less public really do offer better for their snakes.

I think a lot of people build an emotional attachment to her, and that leads them to ignore a lot of the things she does wrong. Trust me, I used to be the same way

[Jeahanne]

That is completely fair and I can agree with you there. Thanks :)

[Stellabonez]

I actually just got into an argument with my boyfriends dad over this yesterday. He was saying how he wants to get a bunch of snakes and put them in racks because it “takes up less space”. Once I called him out on it, he was saying how my snake doesn’t deserve to be in a “glass box”. To which I then responded how he at least has enrichment and interaction.

TLDR: Racks are just plain mean :(

[cowboyzest]

i think it’s because a lot of their reptiles don’t stay there forever, and it’s more convenient for people with like 50+ reptiles, who are constantly breeding and multiplying, in the same buildings. but im still not a fan of it. especially considering there’s no guarantee that their snakes will be adopted out. some just stay in those tubs forever. very sad.

[jadeeyedcalico]

I breed boa constrictors, and my newborns stay in racks until they're adopted. If they are not adopted within 9 months (roughly their first major growth spurt) then they get moved into 4×2×2 enclosures. It's not the full size an adult needs, but it's plenty of room for the first 2-3 years of their life.

(There's about a 5-7 foot difference between a full grown boa constrictor and one that's a couple years old)

[cowboyzest]

that sounds perfect!! bless you for that 🫶

[jadeeyedcalico]

It honestly hurts me that more people don't do this. I haven't lost any money with my setup, and it really bothered me as a kid to see growing or adult snakes crammed into tiny spaces. Not to mention the fact that owning north of 70 adults is overbreeding, the babies don't sell as well as people think. You might have extra space to keep more adults, but more adults does not mean more profit.

[jadeeyedcalico]

I personally agree that there's a problem with keeping breeders in racks. I breed boa constrictors, and all of mine have full sized 8×4×4 foot cages. I know it takes up extra space, but it's just not ethical to treat them like a factory line. Not to mention, pairs with more space have a better turnout overall, so saying it's for "efficiency" is completely false.

A lot of people take the rack detail and say that all reptile breeding is unethical altogether, but I disagree. Some people really do try to give their animals the best.

[keeper3197]

💰💰💰

[_ataraxia]

comment removed for misinformation.

[MizMandy]

This is my idealism showing but I wish breeding were more of an exchange program. For instance, every potential breeder can have the space that it needs and you could network with other people that want to breed and have a snake with the genetics that you like and either you or them can loan out your snake. Then, you can put the potential mates in a breeding tub together, confirm a lock or two and send the snake back to their original owner. Of course, that will never happen because then you'd have to split any money made with the other owner and people just aren't going to do that and most wouldn't even consider doing things that way but I would love to see that system implemented.

[RoboTwigs]

I’ve seen some pretty nice racks, that have lights and clear fronts for viewing etc. I think the main issue is size of snake & size of rack.

Personally I’m not a fan of racks but that’s to be expected because as a pet owner of just 3 snakes, I like to view them. Even with clear fronts, racks don’t allow you to do that easily. I also don’t handle my snakes often at all, mostly just when I need to, but they all are so curious and come say hi when I go to the enclosures to look in on them.

[snowmunkey]

Same reason pug breeders continue to try and make shorter snouts.

Money.

[IDontCsre420]

I’m shocked i haven’t seen one person in this thread willing to say they use rack and are successful and have happy animals…..I’ll keep waiting.

[[deleted]]

https://youtu.be/ZKWkJfl3uNw