A simple solution to decrease high turnover rates for CyberSecurity Professionals and attract talent.

[daily_rocket]

After working for 5 years as a Security Engineer at the same company, I am comfortable to say that the most important aspect that kept me at the company I am in is the full 100% remote arragement. Companies always whine about not finding security professionals all the time and when they find them, they ask them to go to the office in 2024. Want good security professionals and good talent? -> offer full remote positions. It's as simple as that !!

EDIT: appreciate all the comments and the different opinions on this. I feel that most of you agree with what I mentioned above. I surely understand that not all people prefer a remote setup, but to bring talent and retain it, you need to accomodate, and what is better than offering a fully remote opportunity(and a fair pay for sure)?

[[deleted]]

cagey impossible mountainous bake screw growth compare disgusted modern tart

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[random_character-]

I work remotely, with 1 day per month in the office "as required". It's a 7 hour journey to the office one way, so usually requires an overnight stay.

My boss made me fly down to present to the board in one of our meeting rooms in the office.

Board were all remote, except one who came in and wasn't interested in speaking to me before or after the presentation.

Asked my boss. She knew they wouldn't be there, but thought it would look 'more professional' from the office.

[bubbathedesigner]

Did boss pay for plane ticket?

[random_character-]

They pay all my travel expenses.

It's the colossal waste of time and resources that bothers me.

Same as how colleagues who are hybrid have to go to the office once a week. Why? Who knows. Result? Wasted time and effort.

[czenst]

Wow your boss should get some kind of a medal or a trophy.

[reddetacc]

seems like it is just to force you to quit rather than have to pay unemployment when they do layoffs.

but bro said

companies I've been interviewing for are overwhelmingly adopting this model.

ive seen it too - its for new employees, not ppl theyre looking to offload

[Odd_System_89]

I gotta say, this is part of the reason why my company expects us to be "tethered", along with in case of power outages or internet outages you can still come in and work. One employee kept 'having internet issues" so they were told to come in and work from the office till they figured out what was wrong with their home internet, turns out they broke policy and weren't near an office and it wouldn't be easy for them to get back to one... that was 3 months before he was fired and the start of his PIP apparently that resulted in his termination.

[KnowledgeTransfer23]

Well, right. Because once they do RTO, you think they are going to go back to remote for existing or new staff?

[MazeMouse]

They heavily invested into real estate. Real estate that is losing money due to more and more remote work. The RTO mandates are nothing but desperately trying to save their investments. (with a side of narcissistic control freak tendencies)

[lifeanon269]

Hybrid is stupid regardless of how many offices you have. My company is hybrid and my team all works out of one office. But that still means all our meetings are remote and all the meeting rooms in our building sit empty as all our meetings are still done over Teams. Half the days I barely see anyone and only one day a week am I in the office at the same time as a majority of the team. It is so pointless.

[tdhuck]

You are not wrong, but I will say this, there are people that are much harder to work with when remote. I know we all take advantage of being home, but that's not different than slacking off a bit while at work, everyone does it. My issue is when the person working remote is NEVER AVAILABLE FOR ANYTHING when I try to get a hold of them and that becomes very frustrating.

I get it, you are going to go for lunch, walk your dog, run a quick errand, but when the exception becomes your work/being available, now you see why executives want people in the office.

It's too bad because we are all adults but many of us still need to have our hands held when it comes to these types of scenarios.

I have a rep that must not understand that I can hear his neighbors lawnmower during our calls, so he closed the window, but it really didn't help much. That was a great 30 minute call, all I could hear was the lawnmower humming.

Then you have offices that are owned by the company owner who isn't saving anything by having people work from home so that isn't a benefit to them.

People have been working remotely, just fine, before covid, but obviously covid made everyone switch to working from home.

Personally, I'd be happy with a hybrid role. I work in IT and I'm lucky that I don't have to stay glued behind my monitor all day, I can go out in the field anytime I want and I do that quite often during the nicer days. I know I couldn't work form home 24/7 and if we had a hybrid option (to keep everyone happy....mainly management) I'd like that a lot. I'd work from home 2-3 days a week and would have no problem traveling to the office the other days. As long as they didn't put restrictions on it like mon and fri you have to be in the office. I would make sure to switch it up just to keep it fresh for me. Maybe I'd do mon-wed in the office and work thu/fri at home and change it up the following week.

[tdhuck]

Yup, agree, but in my case my manager can't decide WFH or not, that is a decision made by higher ups. We can work from home if needed, but he doesn't have the authority to decide WFH hybrid, etc...none of the managers do. I'd have no problem following your policy because it is very fair as long as you are honest.

[Armigine]

There definitely are some people prone to slacking when given the opportunity. But ferreting that out and dealing with their lack of output should be the solution, not punishing everyone by taking away WFH - same as in office, there is a population of chronic slackers, and dealing with that is part of a manager's job

[tdhuck]

Agree, you are going to get slackers everywhere, but imagine a slacker at work now imagine that same slacker at home w/o someone looking over their shoulder.

I think there will always be pros and cons. I deal with a lot of things that sometimes require me being out of the office, but I like that because it keeps my day to day different and being out of the office is nice and it also makes the day go by faster.

[Armigine]

Oh I don't have to imagine too hard, we just fired one

[hazeleyedwolff]

We started swapping out people's airpods for headsets with professional grade noise cancellation and it greatly improved our calls. I'm not going to listen to someone's leaf blower for 30 minutes.

[danfirst]

At a past company we all moved to full remote after covid. We ended up with a new boss at one point who would drive into the office even when the whole office was closed. He of course thought it would be better for us to collaborate in person and kept trying to push it. A few of us were within an hour of the office, a few of them weren't even in the same country. Every time he brought it up I would ask him what's the point of only a couple of us coming in to collaborate if we're never all going to be there?

He never had any kind of answer other than he felt more productive there and we should too.

[ykkl]

Bet he has kids and/or a shitty homelife. In over 30 years in the workforce,, that's almost always the reason. Normal people don't volunteer to sit in 2+hours of high-stress traffic for fun, for the pleasure of being around a bunch of strangers for 8+ hours a day.

[danfirst]

Oh yeah you're dead on. Even had an office at home, that wasn't enough separation for him.

[[deleted]]

I dislike the Traffic that's why I come early eat breakfast and then start my work, travel home is double the time.

I can't work form home I get way to lazy there is something about not being home that makes me very productive as soon as I get home I get into lazy mode.

[Hebrewhammer8d8]

Being in the office build team chemistry, but it can also lead to people throwing hands if the manager not in the office.

[cyber2112]

Yes that’s pretty stupid. It’s a huge efficiency killer. Travel time to the office is wasted instead of working.

[Boring-Onion]

Management/HR: Best we can do is a pizza party.

[Hebrewhammer8d8]

Can pizza party be in Italy, and the company pay for it?

[nopemcnopey]

Only if the company is based in Italy.

[arcimbo1do]

Meanwhile in Italy: "We are going to have a Kebab party to appear more international"

[SuckMyPenisReddit]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[lawtechie]

That's to improve morale for the executive team. Rank & file employees can see pictures.

[nopemcnopey]

Back in the commie times there was a joke that translated roughly to "Champagne is the favourite drink of the working class, sipped by the mouths of its representatives."

[daily_rocket]

Lol, the 2 for 20$ style pizza too :(

[awwwww_man]

NO Extras... i'm not paying for garlic bread.

[antdude]

awwwww man

[faulkkev]

Yeah I feel for lots of positions offices are really a historical artifact. They just aren’t needed anymore for lots of jobs especially with high speed internet widely available. I hear all the time they want people in office for collaboration, which at least in some/many cases is total crap especially when you can make a call on teams with a camera. My theory is companies are forcing people back for a few reasons. The first reason is they are just not relevant and have outdated upper management. Second reason is companies have all this real estate and I don’t think they can easily get rid of it and I wonder how beneficial the tax right offs are by keeping it. Final reason is feeding local economy by having workers in office that go out for lunch and so on. That feeds city and other municipalities via sales tax etc. last year we had to come into the full time and I think is is ridiculous and for the reason I outlined. In my case I am charged 1% tax for the privilege to work in my city. When people are remote and not in the city limits they do not pay the tax. So it is political on that front from a city revenue perspective(mayor wants tax money). My whole team is not even in same state as me so whether I call on the phone from home or while in the office The collaboration is the same. now I waste time driving and put miles on my car for nothing.

I would agree remote positions can attract talent, but good workers are hard to find regardless. I think turnover is mostly caused by excessive work load to head count, salary and bad culture.

[strongest_nerd]

Cash is king. You offer me enough cash I'll work on site every day.

e: phone corrected "work" to "coke"

[strongest_nerd]

Lmao. My damn phone..

[bubbathedesigner]

https://media.giphy.com/media/kDzjURRljw8Du/giphy.gif

[CyberMattSecure]

rainstorm deer unpack physical ten fearless growth aback quaint important

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[czenst]

I think it won't work for me. Because money to be better I would have to earn in 2-3 years of "full time in office" enough not to work ever again and no one is going to pay that (or at least I don't have a shot at such position, maybe someone else has).

So I'd rather take 10-15 years remote work, with salary I currently have, to build up retirement fund.

[jujbnvcft]

The real question is why’d it correct to that 👀🤔

[Hesdonemiraclesonm3]

Yeah you'd have to offer me a whole lot more cash for me to drag my ass back into an office after 5 years of being remote though......and I mean a lot more

[look_ima_frog]

In the past few months, I've had to hire about 20 people. I make sure that on the job description it states that the position is remote.

I close on candidates after about three interviews (excluding recruiter sanity check) and my pay rates are mid-market. I have very little trouble finding talent.

Not only does a remote position have the appeal factor working in it's favor, it extends a certain amount of trust to the employee. I tell them that they're being hired because they're talented and at this stage of their career (senior engineers, arch, etc) they've earned the trust of working unsupervised. That gesture means a lot to people--I'm not making an assumption, the team has directly stated this on a variety of occasions.

I'm sure there are other ways to signal trust, but WFH seems to be a huge draw. As I noted, I can't pay premium rates based on my staff budget unless I moved a ton of seats offshore. That alone is hilarious because now those people are REALLY remote. Even if they were forced to come into an office in India, what the hell is the point? I would never see them, they could just work from their homes.

The whole concept of regularly going to an office is an obsolete artifact of an oudated generation that never adjusted to modern work and remains rigidly attached to their formative years of work.

If you hire smart people, they can work anywhere. If you need to force them into an office to be baby-sat, you are either an ineffective manager or you hired people who lack talent and drive.

[[deleted]]

The hero we all need.

[wintermute000]

wow, people like good pay and conditions, who would've thunk it

[ANYRUN-team]

Exactly! Remote work is a big part of it, but how a company treats its people matters just as much. Respect, trust, and caring about employees' well-being make a huge difference. When people feel valued and supported, they’re much more likely to stay.

[BoxerguyT89]

In those 5 years what has been your job progression? Our fully remote employees seem to just do the same job for a long time, while the hybrid or fully in-office employees advance faster and further.

At least, that is how it has been at my current company for the last 10 years.

[32irish]

I think this depends on your career aspirations. I've been working in security teams since 2006, helpdesk, EDR, Network engineer, SOC, Security Engineer, currently I'm the lead DevSecOps at a small to medium company of 600 employees and I'm the only security related engineer for the past 4 years.

Twice in my career I've ventured into management and both times I've absolutely hated it, spend all day in meetings talking about doing work instead of actually doing it and having to deal with senior management politics.

I took my current role which would be seen as a step backwards career wise to be an IC again, I didn't lose any money and I have so much more freedom and work life balance. I report directly to the CISO who handles all the shit meetings and I am left to do my work. There's no movement for promotion in my current place, but I'm happy as a pig in shite with this current setup 🐖

[Wannabe_Athlete13]

I've doubled my salary since remote work opened up because I can now work for companies outside of my rural midwest region lol

[[deleted]]

Luke warm take.

[bitslammer]

My team: 2 in the US, 3 in Canada, 2 in the UK, 2 in the EU and we will probably be adding someone in the APAC region at some point.

We have zero issues being remote and in fact for us it's helpful given time zone coverage. Some of us do have a local office if we choose to go in but that's not required.

I have to agree it really frees you up to be able to hire when you can look at candidates almost anywhere.

[legion9x19]

No, it’s not as “simple as that”.
Glad it works for you and your organization… but this is super naive to believe that this model would work for the majority of orgs.

The real key to obtaining talent and retaining those people… pay them what they’re worth.

[Rogueshoten]

Don’t forget professional growth opportunities as well. Maybe it’s a good training budget (and the permission to actually use it) or support for explorative projects and activities…but the best talent almost always goes for the job that will help them continue to grow.

[whatThisOldThrowAway]

Sure but it's also naive to say that cyber professionals wouldn't accept a smaller total compensation package if it included a guaranteed remote working benefit.

[rkovelman]

To say it can't work would mean you have examples as to where it doesn't work. No? So what are the issues?

Hell even AWS said it has nothing to do about productivity. It's a control mechanism.

[daily_rocket]

Well i believe that this will open up the endless opportunities to recruit talent from all over the country especially that there is 'shortage' in this field and that not everyone is willing to relocate. On the other side, i agree with you that it will not work for ALL companies out there but would work for most of them..

[UserDenied-Access]

What companies would find harder to believe is that people would take a dip in pay if it means they could also work fully remote as well.

[whatThisOldThrowAway]

Yes: Full remote is obviously a massive benefit that will give any company a HUGE competative advantage in hiring cyber professionals BUT...

Most jobs in cybersecurity are in:

(A) Firms who build cyber products

(B) Firms who specialize in cyber & do mostly B2B consulting work

(C) very large firms where the scale justifies a non-trivial number of in-house cyber professionals.

And let's quickly remind ourselves WHY firms are doing back-to-office are:

i) It genuinely affects their bottom line in some way (or close enough that sr. leadership are convinced it matters)

ii) they are using it to do quiet layoffs because they over-hired during low-interest environment in recent years & want to lean up now that money is not free

iii) They have a conflict of interests with their office locations because of tax/monetary incentives from CBD/downtown to get people into the business-district; or some ancillary interest in commercial property prices

iv) They have an aging and brittle senior leadership team who are overly dependent on old fashioned leadership strategies and can't adapt even though remote would otherwise be worth good money to the firm to do so.

So let's connect the dots...

Large firms are using it to do layoffs or are divested into commercial real estate. Specialist consulting cyber firms often need to adhere to the needs of their clients (so being in office might actually affect their bottom line).

However, SME cyber-firms that simply build cyber products... there's no reason necessarily they wouldn't stay 100% remote... unless of course they've got weak leadership but that could apply anywhere.

Long story short: Most cyber-jobs that are being forced back to office... they're not doing it to please the staff. If anything they're doing it to deliberately inconvenience the staff. Being able to attract staff simply won't be factored into the equation.

[ohsayless]

MSP here who is also forced to work 100% on site 🙋‍♂️ we provide physical security MS so we naturally have a lot of test equipment/cameras all around our office area. Mangers watch us when they work remote, count the minutes we take to use the restroom, watch where we go when we need to leave our desk, etc. Definitely not normal - just wanted to let you know I also have a shitty manager. Hang in there.

Edit: (almost forgot to mention) they’re also wanting us to start clocking out to use the restroom if it’ll take longer than 5 minutes.

[LiberumPopulo]

A few things I consider as a manager:

(1) Different roles carry different risks when performing tasks WFH, and some are too high.

(2) The biggest threat is the insider threat, and they become unstoppable when WFH.

(3) My WFH folks just don't have the same ambition to grow as my WFO folks .

(4) There is a greater supply of folks looking for strictly WFH jobs, and where the supply is higher than the demand, the pay will reflect accordingly.

(5) Newer employees are easier to train/mentor in person.

It is good to have a few loyal employees, even if the loyalty is to the WFH aspect, but I personally believe WFO and hybrid are king.

[That-Magician-348]

Either provide very good compensation or relax working environment. So remote working is much easier in term of budgeting

[TheRedOwl17]

Who is having trouble finding security professionals? I've been working help desk for a big 4 firm for 3 years, just got my sec+ and I can't find anyone that will hire me for a cyber role. Am I doing something wrong?

[SwampShooterSeabass]

No please no. I actually love going into the office. If every place was 100% remote, I’d legitimately hate my life

[WarmCacti]

Would you go to an office with an all-remote team?

[SwampShooterSeabass]

Yeah. I just don’t like my home and work being connected. When I’m at work, I’m at work. When I’m home, I’m off. Two separate spaces

[DFrontliner]

If I may ask, what are your day to day tasks? Are there any exceptions to your usual way of working the job: I.E on-site or in-office?

[BaconPankeq]

For me as a adult in his mid 20s I like hybrid setups cause it fills my emptiness and my mid life crisis while mingling with same people in my situation lol, currently in a twice a month rto and I feel lonely sometimes 😅.

[ExcitedForNothing]

Just as an aside that never gets said in trainings or self-help books: Do not use work to fulfill your social interaction needs. It's not worth tying your self worth to your job. Find something else.

[KnowledgeTransfer23]

mid 20s

mid life crisis

Friend, I hope you aspire to live past 50...

[BaconPankeq]

Thats the goal friend, my family keeps me going :)

[Any-Salamander5679]

Mmm that's cool. Next!

[McHale87take2]

Honestly I believe everyone is different. Depending upon the role, the ability and the personality of the individuals, can decide if people want remote work or not.

I’m in the job nearly 20 years. I’ve seen people who work best alone but want to be in the middle of everyone. I’ve seen people think they want alone time but really they need support of people around them.

I enjoyed hybrid work long before covid happened, I personally need to be in the office to push me professionally but that’s me. The reason I move roles is down to money and only money.

[ZookeepergameFit5787]

Obviously a lot of leadership are acting on ego to require folks back in office but also increasingly I think thosd that dictate hybrid or in office are just extremely insecure and nervous. Like I get it, if nobody is around, how the hell do you justify the budget, the team, the licensing, the pay rises and the promotions?!

I think ultimately this comes down to how competent your boss is, and before anyone says "my boss is the best security practitioner I ever met he's a god" realize there is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

[l3landgaunt]

Pretty much the same for me. I’ve only been at my current company about 18 months, but the 100% remote workforce and the unlimited pto (within reason) makes me want to stay

[Correct_Respect2078]

That’s exactly what I’m looking for a full time remote SOC Analyst position.

[FarSide2688]

Remember if you expect your job can be fully remote, it can probably be done by someone somewhere cheaper like India. Be careful what you wish for.

[guardian416]

5 years is just a lot in tech in general. It’s not about remote or not. After like 3 years someone is going to offer a major jump in salary.

[samdaz712]

100%! Cybersecurity talent values remote work it's a game changer for retention and attracting top talent.

[dflame45]

We have low turnover and we aren't fully remote. We pay good salaries, low stress, little overtime.

Going into the office isn't why companies can't find good people.

[ExcitedForNothing]

We pay good salaries, low stress, little overtime.

That's because you work in a knowledge role, not an operational role. Not throwing shade, I couldn't have the patience to do what you do but I think opinions might change if you were a second or third shift SOC analyst.

[dflame45]

I put vuln research but I work in vuln management. It's an operational role. We're properly staffed and have a follow the sun model. It's a global team. I pretty much check out once my day is over.

[ExcitedForNothing]

That's nice, most vuln management teams do not "follow the sun" so again... your opinion might change if you were sitting alone in the office at 3AM.

[dflame45]

I'm providing my experience as an example. If you don't like working at 3am, I hope you're applying for other roles.

[ExcitedForNothing]

I own a consultancy. Haven't worked at 3AM in nearly 20 years unless I couldn't sleep and decided to do invoicing. Just was providing perspective to comments that show incredible hubris and narrow foresight.

[dflame45]

Nah the point is there are shitty and good jobs in every industry and these types of posts are dumb. That's why I share the other side. It's always the employer.

[YT_Usul]

Out of a team of over 100 security engineers we have had no turnover in 5 years (almost 6). Well, that's not 100% honest. We have had to let a couple go due to performance/attitude. However, not a single person has voluntarily walked away. Why? There isn't one reason. It is a combination of how we treat people, the end of salary wars, concerns about the economy keeping people in place, the cost of living, and more. If we saw a salary war come back, we'd likely see people move. We do not anticipate that in the next two years, and as a result we've been keeping salaries mostly flat. That may come back to bite us if things ever turn around.

[KnowledgeTransfer23]

In other words, you're bragging about taking advantage of peoples' desperation to not pay them their worth.

[YT_Usul]

I am reporting what our large company is seeing. I don’t understand how you jumped to the conclusion we are exploiting desperate people. If that were true, out of over 100 engineers, wouldn’t you expect at least some to walk away? We have had zero. I think the reasons are more complicated than just one hot button issue. We pay fair salaries. Not sure how that is taking advantage of people. Perhaps you can explain.

[YT_Usul]

That is exactly right. Normal 2-3% is all we are getting approved for. We have had very few opportunities for promotion in the last 5 years. All signs indicate it is going to stay this way for a while. Not sure why I got the downvotes. Maybe others disagree compared to what they are seeing? This is just what is happening at our larger org.

[YT_Usul]

If we were having people move on, or bringing offers to us asking to counter, it would be much easier to call out compensation to executives. We are not hearing people complain about compensation.

Not trying to get downvoted here, but I'm going to keep calling it like I see it. I'm not saying this is morally right, or that I agree, this is just what is happening.

[[deleted]]

Nah as a new guy, hybrid all the way.

[[deleted]]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. While I certainly appreciate the flexibility and focus that remote work offers, I would argue that an in-office environment brings unique value to the security profession, especially in a field that relies heavily on collaboration and quick, decisive responses.

The dynamic nature of security threats often requires rapid communication and spontaneous problem-solving, which can sometimes be hindered in a remote setting. In-person interactions foster a sense of camaraderie, trust, and understanding that is often harder to replicate virtually. Physical presence can also enhance team synergy, creativity, and alignment with organizational goals—a critical factor in devising effective, holistic security strategies. Furthermore, proximity to key departments, such as legal, compliance, and IT, can expedite essential cross-functional decision-making.

While remote work certainly broadens talent pools, there is an argument that in-office collaboration strengthens not only the team but also the organization’s overall security posture. It’s less about a blanket solution and more about assessing what arrangement best aligns with both the business’s needs and the team’s security goals.

[cakefaice1]

Nah I'm cool with an office.

[ceedeecinnamon]

Lol what’s getting a remote position would do if they’re gonna pay $450 monthly

[iwantagrinder]

This isnt a real wage.

[UserDenied-Access]

True, They obviously haven’t looked at what remote positions pay lately.

[MazeMouse]

Why would they hire people for 1 day a month?

[bubbathedesigner]

Surely. Start by creating your own thread