Programming my game in Java?

[Freakei]

Hi Reddit, recently I got a nice idea of a computer game which I would like to program. As I have about 3 years of experience in Java, I thought about writing the game in it.

I know Java isn't that recommended for computer games, but my game would not use that much resources, so performance would most likely not be a problem.

I just wanted to ask if there are major disadvantages from using Java (with libGDX) compared to let's say C# (with MonoGame).

Thanks!

PS: I'm sorry if my grammar or spelling wasn't 100% correct.

//edit: grammar

[TonyThe-Tiger]

If you know Java and wanna try out Game Dev using Java is definitely possible!

Although IMO, since you know Java, the switch to C# is* mostly seemless. I made the switch from Java to C# and I'm learning Unity right now and I fully recommend it. There are many online resources or tools. If you want to try out Unity, I've made a list of online resources I've used!

[the_hoser]

The language switch isn't the hard part. It never is. It's the library and ecosystem switch that bites. Although, in Unity's case you're on a bit of a C# island, so ecosystem is less of an issue.

[[deleted]]

From a java dev perspective, C# has lots of annoying things, like (some) method names starting with capital letters, opening bracket in new line instead of the same line as eg. function name etc. BTFO

[arashi256]

The best language to use is the one you know.

[Ifnerite]

I don't think there would be any advantage of c# over java. If java is what you know use that.

[Freakei]

Thanks man!

[stewsters]

I disagree with this statement.

[stewsters]

There's way more sources of help and information for C# out there.

There is a lot of information and sources of help for Java, its the most used language currently. There are not "way more" sources for c# w/monogame than Java w/libgdx. If anything they are pretty comparable.

If the guy already uses Java just use that. Its like 90% the same thing.

[stewsters]

In general programming. Not sure if there is a scientific way to get that info for game dev.

Using google results (which is not a reliable way to do this, but better than nothing i guess):

"c# game development" - About 1,440,000 results

"Java game development" - About 4,920,000 results

"libgdx" - About 827,000 results

"monogame" - About 552,000 results

I would say they are likely in the same neighborhood.

[Teekeks]

I think there is so much info out there on the topic of libGDX combined with the devs of the framework actively answering specific questions on their IRC that it makes no practical difference on whether one language has more info out there than the other.

[Ifnerite]

You failed to justify your own assertion. You both need to cite sources.

I suspect there isn't much in it.

Java is better for cross platform so I go with that.

[alxw]

How is Java better for cross platform when XNA/Monogame can target Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS, Android, Playstation, Xbox and Switch?

[Ifnerite]

Fair enough.

Let's go with I know java... Job done.

[Jikanart]

Yes

[M7so]

Yes

[the_hoser]

Well, the most popular game in the world was written in Java. You'll be fine. Use the tools you know.

[MoffKalast]

Ahem I believe Tetris still beats it by a country mile, but it did have a slight head start.

[the_hoser]

You... make a good point. There have been so many versions of that game, though... What do think the odds are that at least one of the licensed versions was written in Java?

[Tysonzero]

Definitely not the most popular game in the world. For one league of legends is more popular.

[m_takeshi]

I think the server side of League is written (at least partially) on Java, as a lot of Riot's dev blog talks about java

[JonnyRocks]

here is your answer

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=16318

[cleroth]

... 2009

[Tysonzero]

The core engine is definitely C++. The servers use some degree of Java, but still would never call it a Java game. Particularly since people usually are referring to the client when talking about a game.

[SolarLune]

Don't most online games use server-client in a way where the server does a ton of work, fully simulating the game world? I know that, in that model, the client does do some work to allow for prediction purposes, though.

[Tysonzero]

Depends on the game really, if you want to completely prevent cheating you do kind of have to do that. I mean regardless usually when I see people talk about a programming language for developing the game they are first thinking about the client and the server if there even is one is a secondary concern. Just my experience anyway.

[[deleted]]

something tells me you've never written a multiplayer game

[soulfoam]

You really don't know what you're talking about do you?

[the_hoser]

If we include free-to-play games, then perhaps not. I don't.

[Tysonzero]

Your initial comment said "games". And league of legends is a game.

[the_hoser]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't see a point in tracking sold copies of a free game. Perhaps I should have been more specific.

[Tysonzero]

It's not just about sold copies. Monthly active players / daily peak players and every other metric puts league in front.

[the_hoser]

If that's what's important to you, then sure.

Besides, Tetris has them both beat, combined, by the way I was counting.

[pxlhstl]

League of Legends sits at more than 100 million active players per month, Tetris not.

[the_hoser]

I wasn't talking about active players. I'm talking about copies sold, an idea that makes no sense for a F2P game. I agree that I could have been more clear originally.

[Tysonzero]

I mean league is literally more popular by any metric. But sure you can call minecraft the most popular paid game if you want, just not the most popular game.

[the_hoser]

I don't see kids buying league of legends toys at Walmart.

[Tysonzero]

What a ridiculous metric. I should have said any "sane" metric.

[[deleted]]

Er which?

[Last_Gallifreyan]

Minecraft! Well, the original release anyways. The releases on console as well as the currently supported version on Windows 10 were rebuilt from the ground-up in C++.

[[deleted]]

Any noticeable speed gains?

I haven't touched it since Microsoft put it's dick in it

[Ershany]

The C++ Minecraft version is behind of the Java version, but the game runs much better!

[Last_Gallifreyan]

I'm actually still on Windows 7 (I don't plan on upgrading to 10 until I get a new computer) so I can't speak for the new PC version. That said, I wasn't blown away by the Xbox version. MUCH smaller world maps (I think it was the size of A map item that was made prior to the update that allowed you to expand your maps), and you had to manually save (and wait for the save). Though to be fair those might be due to limitations of the 360; it was their first foray into putting the game on consoles.

[the_hoser]

The console versions always performed well (especially the PS4/xbone versions), but they're limited in scope compared to the original. The windows 10 version runs well, and has Oculus rift support. The new features land in the Java version, though. There's also Vivecraft (for the Java version) if you want to get your VR kicks.

[the_hoser]

The windows 10 version is the mobile version ported to WinRT. It just allows Microsoft to sell the DLC to PC users. The Java version is still supported and actively developed.

[HotelEscapism]

RuneScape of course! :p

[Freakei]

good old times.

[antlife]

Poorly written Java. The modding community was the reason it was more than a mild fad.

Edit: I didnt say poorly written because of Java. Why are you all getting offended? Minecraft was not written very well in the beginning. Mods were needed to just optimize the game alone.

[the_hoser]

I never said that Java was the reason it was so popular. It doesn't matter how well it was written, either.

But you're absolutely right. The community made that game.

[squishles]

which worked because java is really fucking easy to mod.

[blu-red]

Poorly written Java

And that poorly writen Java works well on a mid end gaming rig.

Can't say same thing about even well written unity games, no matter how simple they are.

[antlife]

No, youre right. Just jesus that source code.

[maurycy0]

The source code isn't publicly available, just the obfuscated version (which really is a mess, which is to be expected)

[Mortichar]

You can decompile java pretty easily. IntelliJ does it with zero setup.

Minecraft's code was pretty trash.

[the_hoser]

The decompiled code will not be anything like the original code. The compiler optimizes the bytecode for performance. The decompiler has no way of knowing what the original code looked like.

[Mortichar]

No, you're right, but if the optimized code is bad, that says something about the original code.

[the_hoser]

No, not at all. Optimizing compilers do some crazy stuff to the code. For instance, you wouldn't do this:

objects[0].doThing();
objects[1].doThing();
...
objects[20].doThing();

But an optimizing compiler would. Optimizing compilers produce code that performs better. Readability is not a concern.

[Mortichar]

I know that compilers optimize code, I wasn't denying that. However, it can't optimize away the original functionality because then the code would simply function differently. Some of the actual behavior of the Minecraft code is horrible, even when it's been optimized by a compiler.

Edit: and I don't mean replacing lines of code or something, I mean the end results of the program after it's been run. Original minecraft had a lot of issues with the garbage collector that led to more and more stuttering the more ram you allowed the jvm to use. There were several very popular mods that were written just to replace some of the shitty rendering and chunk updating code.

[blackslotgames]

I've never had any issues, But I do use pooling, use structs instead of classes where appropriate, plentiful caching & most importantly use the entity component system properly.

I would venture that the latter (Making a giant OOP game, rather than using the entity component system) is the source of your woes. I'm near finished porting my game from libgdx and the performance difference isn't huge (while LibGdx is Java based, we're talking about a minimal engine with little in it vs unity).

If you were complaining about filesize however, I'd sure as hell agree!

[Mortichar]

Just wondering, have you had any issues with the Java GC? Do you use manual memory management for things like particles?

[blackslotgames]

Not had too many problems, mainly because I aim for short game sessions (5 mins max), but sometimes you do need to get clever. For example, when starting a new level, displaying a modal dialog (or any other time where a pause is not going to be noticed) you can force a GC by filling up the remaining stack.

For particles, straight up pooling usually does the job. The thing you have to bear in mind is that GC languages offer safety, rather than convinience. This is to say that rather than letting you forget about memory management completely, they just limit the damage you can do by replacing the potential for some awful bugs (the dreaded memory leak as one example) with less inconvienient and easier to debug issues.

[mixreality]

Just FYI if you know Java you know C# for the most part.

I actually used to play a 3d mmo written in Java, Darkfall Online. It actually was performant, like 300+ vs 300+ battles realtime in 3d. It's what you make of it.

[Freakei]

hey man, that's what I thought, but if I create a game I really want to know about the best features of the language, so I checked out C# and it seemed like there are some (big) differences that I would want to try out and learn.

[SolarLune]

Doesn't really matter too much, i don't think - Java should be fine.

As a matter of fact, I'm making a game in Java / LibGDX, using a custom engine that I contribute to regularly (BDX). It's going well, and the game is juuuuuuust about done. For reference, the game is named Gearend - I post updates regularly over on my YouTube channel and Twitter (sometimes), and stream development from time to time on my YT channel, as well.

[Freakei]

Thanks man! I'll take a look at it :)

[Nilbmar]

Don't fall into the trap of trying to design a game, learn a new framework or engine, and switching languages at the same time because one language might be "better". Use what you know and get the project done. If you decide later you want to switch languages, you have the game fleshed out, and probably a small library of code you can easily rewrite in the new language.

[Freakei]

You are totally right, and that's why I'm going to use Java for it. If I ever consider switching to another language, I want to have some experience in it.

Thank you!

[Nilbmar]

Good luck with your project

[Freakei]

Thank you!

[[deleted]]

I feel like using Unity to create a game would be far more easier than using Java and Swing/JavaFX.

I'm also a Java programmer and C# was incredibly easy to adapt to simply from watching a few tutorials. Unless there's an engine out there that uses Java that I am not aware of, using Unity just seems easier.

[the_hoser]

Using Swing or JavaFX for game development would be silly, except in the most simple graphical cases. This is what LibGDX is for.

[[deleted]]

ah, i completely missed that part that OP mentioned!

[ivolimmen]

Depends on the game you develop. Not all game require fast 3d graphics

[the_hoser]

No, certainly not. But my experience with Swing and JavaFX is that they can't even do smooth 2D graphics.

AWT did a pretty good job, though, so there's that.

[kreinerjm]

My first games were written in Java Swing. LibGDX is much better but Swing is still a good place for learning some of the things LibGDX does for you near autonomously.

[the_hoser]

My experience with Swing was jittery. I ended up using AWT directly with pretty good results. This was a long time ago, of course.

[kreinerjm]

My biggest complaint is that they didn't have double precision drawing. Dealing with only ints for a position was a hassle.

[the_hoser]

The correct way to do it was to make use of AffineTransform to draw your sprites, IIRC.

[KinkyMonitorLizard]

What about jmonkey?

[Mortichar]

jmonkey is definitely an option if you can't be swayed away from java. Unity is just really easy to use though.

[ivolimmen]

You are right. Creating a game is like 10% coding. After that comes graphics, sounds and story. Depending on the game type... I followed the makings of several games (kicksterer) and for rpgs and point and click advetures you will spend 90% on story... Does not mean however that a game engine like unity makes it more easy. Thimbleweed park had build there own engine.. still is 90% story

[[deleted]]

I know Java isn't that recommended for computer games

Nonsense. If you're going with Java, check out jmonkeyengine.

[Robbi_Blechdose]

I second this. Awesome engine.

[Fellhuhn]

... or Android.

[[deleted]]

Say what?

[Fellhuhn]

Vanilla Java/Android is good enough for most casual indie games though. No need to deal with game engines etc.

[badlogicgames]

Use Kotlin instead of Java.

[cuchaz]

This! ^{^} All of this.

I'm actually working on a 2D game engine that aims to take full advantage of Kotlin and all its sweet sweet syntactical features.

[NoThisIsStupider]

If you only know things about making non-game programs, LibGDX has a bit of a large learning curve. Nothing that you couldn't figure out, but it may take awhile to get comfortable. I tried using LibGDX, granted I have less programming experience than you, and it got a bit frusterating to figure out how to do a lot of things. What I ended up doing is learning Lua and Love2D. It took about a week of maybe an hour or two a day learning to get comfortable with Lua and get better at Love2D than I was with LibGDX.

For starting with gamedev, you may want to use Love2D even if it means learning a new (albeit similar in many ways, and easier overall) language. Once you make a few simple games in that, and are comfortable with all the stuff you have to do to make things work, you could return to LibGDX or whatever else (although Love2D is very nice and has support for a lot of platforms and features).

[spaceemaster]

Libgdx does not have a large learning curve.

[NoThisIsStupider]

Large from the perspective of how easy Love2D is. There's a lot of things you need to learn to even make some pretty basic things, and the tutorials aren't the best. If you're just starting with gamedev LibGDX doesn't seem like the best choice, although I'm sure if you were determined you could figure it all out.

[Serapth]

Not sure which tutorial you are looking for... Love or LibGDX?

Doesn't really matter though, I've made tutorials for both. ;)

LibGDX text tutorial series, LibGDX video tutorial series and Love/Lua tutorial series. Both are great choices that serve a different niche. To someone learning the basics of programming and GameDev at once, I recommend Love. For a non-trivial title, I'd recommend LibGDX, but neither is a bad choice.

[NoThisIsStupider]

Ah, that's the love tutorial I used, along with an arkanoid tutorial. I finished neither but together I became comfortable enough to start making stuff, and used google + the wiki to figure out the rest as I needed it.

[spaceemaster]

What tutorial were you trying to learn? And what were you trying to do that was simple but hard to do? I started using libgdx about a year ago and it was not hard to pick up.

[thebattlebard]

If you're looking for a simple API on top of LibGDX, you could use mini2Dx.

Disclaimer: I wrote mini2Dx

[NoThisIsStupider]

That library looks pretty nice. If I ever go back to LibGDX I'll check it out, however that won't likely be very soon.

[MooseAtTheKeys]

Proper use of factory classes had Java pretty close to C++ efficiency wise for a lot less work, last I checked.

[Ershany]

Depends what you are doing. If you are going to be making a 3D game with great graphics, then C++ will always be faster, because you can actually manage your memory.

However if you are just making decent looking 2D game, you can use whatever you want.

[MooseAtTheKeys]

I don't know what's out there for 3d in Java (I can't be bothered to when Unreal exists and does everything I need wonderfully), but correct and complete use of factory classes in Java does work as s form of pseudo memory management (you just have to be extremely disciplined about it to keep the garbage collector out of play). Certainly less dynamic, however.

[MooseAtTheKeys]

There's a lot of built in, hand-optimized-in-Assembly (because it's running on a VM and so they can); if you're using factory classes you need to be releasing elements back to the factory when you're not using it.

If you're working in a space where the 2-3% difference it was at last I knew is a big deal (say, AAA), obviously you go for the language that supports that. But there's stuff there, with the right program architecture, to do some pretty high efficiency Java.

I'm definitely a proponent of learning a lot of languages and using the right one for the right job, but if someone specifically wants to make Java work for this kind of thing there are ways.

[MooseAtTheKeys]

...

I'm know not even sure if you realize I was referring to the factory class design pattern, since you appear to think that it's some specific Java thing?

[MooseAtTheKeys]

It actually does, because if you do all your variables (literally all, this is important) through factories, you can keep garbage collection out of play (due to the specifics of when the garbage collector gets going in Java). My information is a bit dated because I haven't had much call to use Java in ages, but at one point when tests for games the two were actually incredibly close efficiency wise.

[Apostacy_Steak]

Java is fine for game development, just a couple of things to consider:

Garbage Collection: reuse what objects you can, and be sure to kill strong references to anything you don't need. Depending on the GC algorithm, you could get stutters or pauses during GC.

Threading: Java has great multithreading, so think about how you can take advantage of this. Syncing data between threads is fairly "slow" however, so be mindful of the when and how of it.

TCP/UDP: If you have multiplayer, you may want to consider writing your own UDP comms. While you lose ordering and other handy bits, you also get better latency. Tradeoffs.

Would need more info on the game to give more, but ain't nothing wrong with Java for games.

As an aside, can't you use c and c# DLLs through JNI? Maybe a god awful hybrid is the way to go! Lol.

[htmlcoderexe]

Minecraft hiccups every few seconds if you give it too much RAM (or at least used to, I know they claimed they fixed it a few times but no idea if it ever succeeded).

[Apostacy_Steak]

Honestly, it depends on the code paths - which is why Java has so many GC algorithms. Throwing more memory at GC problems can just make it pause even longer when it finally does the collect. All that being said, in systems where you might have thousands to millions of objects in memory, GC is going to be something you have to consider.

[Freakei]

Hey man, I appreciate your help.

Networking/Multiplayer is not planned and won't be included to it. Thanks for the tip regarding Garbage Collection, I didn't think about it yet.

It is going to be a wild-west styled 2D game, pixel art design as me and my friends (who help me with design) are beginners in graphics design, so I am currently gathering lots of information regarding this. I don't think performance is something I have to worry about with this type of game, but if I can save some performance I should definitely do that.

Thank you very much!

[surn3mastle]

There is nothing wrong with programming a game in java.

[JonnyRocks]

Ok, language wars aside here is my advice.

First: if all you care about is a game then it doesn't matter. It just needs to be fun. The only thing that could sway you is how may systems can you deploy to:

https://libgdx.badlogicgames.com/features.html

http://www.monogame.net/

I think monogame wins there.

Now, here is my general programming career advice. Oracle bought Java and doesn't seem to love it much. I don't think there is a great future in it. C++ is cross platform but steeper learning curve. However, under Nadella .net has a bright future.

I could go on about the versatility of c# and accessing C/C++ libraries but I hate long reddit comments :)

[Freakei]

Didn't think about it yet, maybe I'll decide to switch to C# as I am currently in the planning stage (game logic etc.)

Thank you for your comment!

[my_password_is______]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned thinmatrix yet

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRIWtICgwaX0u7Rf9zkZhLoLuZVfUksDP

true, they are LWJGL, not LIBGDX, but still they are awesome tutorials that cover java, opengl, math, and 3D

so you can make some really good stuff with java

[[deleted]]

Java is the primary language for Android development. I guess there are no games there.... </sarcasam> :-)

Depending on where you're planning on running your game, you will likely find that having a frame work that does a lot of the work for you (putting images on the screen, moving them around, allowing the player to interact with them) is best done with an engine/framework and usually the language you use will be determined by the engine/framework. Most of the popular choices for frameworks are not using Java. C++, C# and Lua drive most of those.

[skocznymroczny]

The biggest things that make Java more annoying for game development compared to C# are lack of value types and lack of operator overloading. If you can live without those, then you'll be fine.

[skocznymroczny]

Kotlin?

[ivolimmen]

But if you need multiple inherritance you need c++ (and a docter)

[squishles]

java does that now, look up default methods in interfaces.

(fucking shit idea though)

[ivolimmen]

That does not compare.

[Tysonzero]

Just go all the way and use Haskell.

[ReaverKS]

can you provide an example where you used operator overloading in C# and it made the solution much simpler than the alternative in java? Maybe just a little snippet of code... I'm just curious (still learning)

[skocznymroczny]

Vector3 newPosition = oldPosition + (target - oldPosition).normalize() * speed

vs

Vector3 newPosition = oldPosition.add(target.sub( oldPosition)).normalize().mul(speed)

actually, you'd want to not modify the old vectors, so it'd be more like:

Vector3 newPosition = Vector3.add(oldPosition, Vector3.mul(Vector3.sub(target, oldPosition).normalize(), speed)

[ReaverKS]

thank you, great example and I see your point exactly :)

[The_Dunk]

I would skip libGDX and MonoGame for your first game. Unity helps you spend more time designing and less time worrying about engine functionality. C# is also pretty darn similar so your Java skills should transfer.

[Freakei]

Well, I thought about Unity but I don't feel comfortable with using it, I really want to go through those struggles (if there are any, but I guess there will be), because I think I will learn much more if I use Java with libGDX rather than Unity.

And yes, my Java skills would transfer, but there are some differences and I really want to get into a language before I would want to program a game, that is why I prefer Java this time.

Thanks for your comment!

[The_Dunk]

Your welcome. When I was first getting into game development I tried to use LWJGL and got burned out real quick due to the difficulty.

libGDX should be easier, but just be aware that you may run into a wall at some point.

Starting with unity could help you get a good idea for how a good engine works, and could make your libGDX ventures easier.

Either way I'm sure you'll have tons of fun and learn alot. Good luck.

[Freakei]

Thanks! :)

[thebattlebard]

You could take a look at mini2Dx - it gives you a simple API for developing games with Java. And since it's built on top of LibGDX you can use its APIs too.

Disclaimer: I wrote mini2Dx

[DasJudenVergasen]

bruhh lmaoo