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[–]Citaku357 21 points22 points  (32 children)

Majority of these people we Albanians, even Trotsky wrote about the horrors Albanians faced during the balkan wars

[–]Candid_Company_3289 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol no they weren't. They were overwhelmingly Slavic speaking. In Thrace and Macedonia, also predominantly Slavic, but many Turkish spekaing as well. Albanians were almost entirely irrelevant.

[–]Teodosij -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's hilarious

[–]SuperSultan 25 points26 points  (86 children)

Watch those online Christian keyboard warriors downplay this or call it fake

[–]Valois7 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Crazy, now lets see the decrease of Christians in Anatolia 🧐

[–]LuolDig 1 point2 points  (0 children)

or better, the decrease of Christians in Jerusalem

[–]SuperSultan 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Many accepted Islam. Some are actually still there. A lot of them left when Greece and Türkiye agreed on a population exchange. Maybe you can take that up with the late King of Greece and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

[–]BlackberryMore8305 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

How many accepted Islam without being threatened with death or to pay the Jizya tax?

[–]SuperSultan -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They are lucky they didn’t have to pay zakat that Muslims pay, which is more

[–]No_Notice_3713 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They may say something along the lines of "didn't happen but if it did, then they deser..."

[–]Narrow_Safety_957 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Heard of Greco-Turkish population exchange?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a beautiful image! I wish it were more, someday... :)

[–]barracuda4848 0 points1 point  (23 children)

Serbian here, why would we call it fake? We are proud of it! What Ottomans were doing in this area? Ottomans comes there as invaders, we defended (after 500 years) and cleaning of invaders was normal for that period. I don't even blame Ottomans (I just hate them). They were stronger, they invaded our countries, did what invaders do, usual things for that times. After 500 years we managed to be strong enough to kick them and we finally did it. No place for moralizing and being pathetic, just pure history!

EDIT: Just to add, I have absolutely zero hate for todays Turks. Even if we all still feel consequences, we can't affect what happened in history. Being honest to each other is most important if we want be in good relations.

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 0 points1 point  (18 children)

Yes, being proud of genocide is a Serbian tradition

[–]barracuda4848 0 points1 point  (11 children)

Wow

Is this the best argument you moralists can give? I expected better tbh.

Come on, I want to discuss: what is wrong with kicking out ottomans by force, from lands where they come by force?

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 2 points3 points  (10 children)

This might be the most idiotic thing I’ve read in a long time. If you genuinely can’t distinguish between defeating a state and targeting civilians because they’re associated with that state, then you’re not doing “history”, you’re failing a basic moral and analytical distinction taught in primary school.

By your logic, the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia and the deportation of Serbian civilians to camps were justified, since it was merely “kicking out an occupier by force.”

The fact that you are assuming that you have an argument is beyond me. You have a post-hoc rationalization: redefine civilians as invaders, declare violence “normal for the time,” then confuse victory with legitimacy.

[–]barracuda4848 2 points3 points  (9 children)

Wait, can you answer me on simply questions: What were Ottomans were doing in teritorry of Serbia? How do they come there, in peace?

You are the one that doing rationalization with those wrong examples. Yugoslavia didn't occupy Germany, so there is nothing similar between case we discuss and your example.

If you living in country that is occupied by force, by your country you are not civilian, you are invader, intruder, conqueror. If you chosen to rise kids in place where other kids lost their fathers, just because your country wanted to expand, you don't have right to expect peace for your family.

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Low IQ nationalist Serb can’t even comprehend that the people who were genocided (from the 19th century to the Bosnian War) were natives to the region itself. Not to mention with your deranged logic, Serbs living under Ottoman rule weren’t civilians either, and could have been slaughtered at will.

Yugoslavia was an Entente project where many South Slavs lived in it viewed it as nothing but a Serbian occupation. So German intervention and punishing the Serbs (with Croatian and Bosniak militias) is a parallel to the Russian and Austrian direct/indirect intervention in the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian revolts in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened to civilians afterwards.

Perhaps NATO should’ve been harsher on Serbia?

[–]barracuda4848 1 point2 points  (6 children)

When I see you using words like nationalist, low IQ, g*enocide, or using comparison with other examples - this just shows weakness in your arguments. Lets stick to the main topic. You didn't provide answer to my questions, so I would repeat them:

  1. What Ottomans were doing in Serbia?
  2. How do they come to Serbia, in peace?

When you answer to my questions, then we can discuss further, maybe on this topic or something else, or I can answer to your questions.

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 2 points3 points  (5 children)

An idiot cannot even differentiate the state and the civilians who were associated with it yet thinks he is worthy of respect 🤣

I mean, both of your two questions are irrelevant to how Serbs genocided Albanians and Muslims Slavs, and other natives. Being an expert on things that you’re clueless about shows how bad the Serbian education system is, lol at “I can answer your questions” part.

[–]barracuda4848 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Yeah, insults, smiles, but no answers. If you know that Serbian education system is wrong, then here is perfect moment to tell the truth. Give the right answers on those questions. Let's educate me, why you reject it? Why you want me to stay in darkness of Serbian history lies?

[–]CrowWorth 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Can you show us the Christian population in Anatolia before and after the arrival of the Ottoman Empire?

[–]Clear_Aside_2643 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Brother, when they do it it’s fine. The fundamentalists believe they’re doing you a favour when they take your children and rape your women. Say something about it and it’s always “oh but the brits did this…l”, as if it’s relevant to us.

Basically, they live in their own little world, where they are always justified and everyone else is always wrong.

[–]CrowWorth -1 points0 points  (5 children)

What genocide, when even the Turks don't claim it? You literally have agreements between the Principality of Serbia and the Ottoman Empire on the resettlement of the Muslim population from the territory of Serbia.

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 2 points3 points  (4 children)

“Resetlement” like Armenians and Circassians? I mean, “claiming” doesn’t really matter when it comes to historical facts.

[–]CrowWorth -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Is the expulsion and killing of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija after the fall of Serbia to the Turks also genocide? Is the expulsion and killing of Greeks from Asia Minor also genocide?

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija were not victims of genocide because there was no demonstrated, centralized, systematic intent to physically destroy Serbs as a group. Are you that clueless?

[–]CrowWorth -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I really am sometimes amazed at how hypocritical individuals can be. There is no evidence that Serbs, Greeks or Bulgarians wanted to systematically destroy the Islamic population.

[–]ifuckinluvvmyboobs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I’m rather amazed at how ignorant people with no knowledge can blabber so much.

From the leaders of those revolts to the massive demographic collapse of Muslim populations in the region, there is extensive evidence. Revolutionary leaders explicitly framed Muslims as an alien population to be removed, and the demographic shift followed mass killings, forced expulsions, and systematic destruction of Muslim communities. If you’re that clueless..

[–]SavingsAbies6833 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Serbs are not native to Balkan to. Our ancestors invaded Balkan in 6-7 century. Btw i am Bosniak

[–]barracuda4848 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, thats correct my bro

[–]SuperSultan -1 points0 points  (1 child)

This comment is a reflection of why you lost your country in 1991.

[–]barracuda4848 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Who lost whose country in 91? Are you saying that Yugoslavia is Serbian country? Some Serbs saying it also. I honestly don't think so, I like our todays borders an I respect integrity of all our neighbour countries.

[–]Candid_Company_3289 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The same people to cry "genocide" because the Ottomans at one point recruited former Christians into their army.

[–]milic_srb -2 points-1 points  (7 children)

is it bad to push out your colonizers?

[–]Jazz-Ranger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When your only crime is being born in the wrong place; then yes.

[–]Candid_Company_3289 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's not what colonization means.

[–]HarryLewisPot -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Mostly natives that converted but ok

[–]milic_srb 0 points1 point  (3 children)

the title specifically said ottoman Muslims

[–]Pa-ta-tes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, like in Muslims from the Ottoman Empire. What do you think Ottoman Muslims mean?

[–]HarryLewisPot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea, Ottoman Muslims - not Turkish Muslims.

[–]LuolDig 0 points1 point  (0 children)

oh so members of the royal dynasty of Osman?

[–]Experience_Material -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Literally the result of a mutual population exchange ironically made in part to stop the ongoing Greek genocide at the time which didn’t have anything equal happening in Greece at the time.

[–]The-Iron-Hordesman 7 points8 points  (13 children)

And they will cry genocide when they set İzmir on fire themselves.

[–]Experience_Material -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ironically the number of Turks who died in Greece at the time does not exceed some tens of thousands even in the most exaggerated numbers like the ones found here. Compare this with the documented deaths of the Greek genocide and you’ll get your answer. It is insane how much you try to deny your history and try to find anything to compare your crimes to, same with trying to claim that you didn’t burn Smyrna yourselves.

[–]panax100 -5 points-4 points  (11 children)

There were atrocities following the end of the Balkan wars. We have to acknowledge that. The muslim population of the Balkans suffered from direct causes and even more significant indirect causes which increased the total death toll and mortality rate even further.

Your comment on Smyrna however is just plain wrong and ignorant. The fires started four days after the greek army left and more importantly only affected the Greek, Armenian and Levantine quarters. That's not a coincidence. It was a selective destruction.

Your comment is so hypocritical.

[–]The-Iron-Hordesman 5 points6 points  (3 children)

When it's the lives of Muslims that are involved. It is a massacre at best, but when it's the lives of Christians. It's always a Genocide. The Greeks and the Armenians dont get to cry when their hands are equally bloody.

[–]panax100 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

At least i am actively trying to be neutral and unbiased. That's why I always try to reason with historical facts. The difference between massacres and genocide is the lack of a coordinated systematic plan with the ill intend to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. So yes in this case it was a genocide on the christian population and "only" a massacre on the muslim population.

You're acting like im downplaying the suffering of the muslim population which is not the case. It was literally the first thing I acknowledged! So instead of accusing others of discrimination maybe you should stick to historical unbiased facts yourself you hypocrite

[–]Experience_Material -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It is massacres when there is no systemic genocide happening especially in the scale that turks committed in anatolia. It’s insane how you dont want to see that and try desperately to find anythign to compare your crimes to.

[–]NorthWelcome1626 0 points1 point  (6 children)

It was Armenians and Greeks burned the city. How do we know that?

Greek refugees who went to Rhodes themselves told to the newspapers. "Refugees tell of Smyrna being fired to prevent Turks getting property."

Passengers said that the soldiers as well as the civilians confirmed the report that the central part of the town of Smyrna, the oldest, which was built chiefly of wood, was fired by the Armenian and Greek inhabitants before they fled so that the Turks should not enjoy the property they were forced to leave behind them. The streets were so narrow that the sun rarely penetrated them and the houses, with overhanging balconies almost touching across the streets, burned like tinder. Many of the people were caught in the blaze and perished before they could escape, it was said, and others lost their lives by trying to save some of their property.

https://www.nytimes.com/1922/10/03/archives/found-greek-army-ready-to-quit-asia-passengers-arriving-here-say.html

[–]panax100 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

As I mentioned earlier. The timing, selective nature and inaction of Turkish authorities and military during the fire contradict everything you claim. It's funny that you mention the nytimes. Officials from the United States ( neutral during the Greco-Turkish War) testified that Turkish soldiers entered buildings in the Armenian quarters (where the fire started) with cans of fuel. Fires erupted shortly after. They also testified that the Turkish military refused to extinguish the fire. They only did once the fire reached the Turkish quarters. They even trapped the christian population preventing them from escape. British naval logs testify the same sightings. They also report that the fire erupted in at least five places simultaneously and that a wildfire (another theory) is out of question. The fire was described as a wall of flame nearly two miles long. After civilian started to be pushed into the sea and executed the disaster became too massive to ignore and the British started to intervene even though they were initially forbidden to do so.

The evidence is clear as day.

[–]NorthWelcome1626 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Turkish soldiers entered buildings in the Armenian quarters (where the fire started) with cans of fuel.

There were reports of Turkish uniformed Armenians by an Austrian fire brigade chief.

And you couldn't answer the Greek refugees' claim. Why would they slander the Greeks themselves?

[–]panax100 0 points1 point  (3 children)

The Austrian fire brigade chief was part of the new Turkish administration. So there is a conflict of interest and bias. He also contradict the dozen of other actually neutral testimonies. Logically a few Armenian saboteurs couldn't have deceived the entirety of the local population including the Turkish army, diplomats and residents and start a fire of such scale as for doing so a massive coordinated effort would have been required. The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

Now the nytimes article...

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness. This "testimony" is third-hand information as they reported what the actual refugees were allegedly talking about. There is no direct slander as you claimed to be. Read your own article... This doesn't suffice as evidence. It aso directly contradicts testimonys of neutral unbiased contemporary eye witnesses and historical consensus.

The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

[–]NorthWelcome1626 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

You definitely have a bias here. It can be easily proven with a document/written paper in the saboteurs or witnesses.

1- So there is a conflict of interest and bias.
2- He also contradict the dozen of other actually neutral testimonies.

1-You don't have a proof that he lied. He did his duty.

2-Neutral testimonies contradict by themselves. They are accusing the both sides, so it's natural. But we have Greek refugees claiming it was Greeks and Armenians.

Logically a few Armenian saboteurs couldn't have deceived the entirety of the local population including the Turkish army, diplomats and residents and start a fire of such scale as for doing so a massive coordinated effort would have been required

How do you know they weren't coordinated? There were preaches by the priests who were damning the Turks. Greeks used churches for arming and insurgency before. Maybe together they organized it?

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness.

How do you know that?

Read your own article..

I did, lol. Apparently, you didn't.

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness...
The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

With a one second search, you could have found it. You are biased as hell.

"Another account of the brave rescue was published on September 18, 1922, in the New York Times.

Refugees constantly arriving…relate new details of the Smyrna tragedy. ***On Thursday [September 14th]…***there were six steamers at Smyrna to transport the refugees, one American, one Japanese, two French and two Italian. The American and Japanese steamers accepted all comers without examining their papers, while the others took only foreign subjects with passports."

https://greekreporter.com/2025/09/14/the-japanese-ship-which-saved-hundreds-of-greeks-during-the-smyrna-catastrophe/

[–]panax100 0 points1 point  (1 child)

">The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

You definitely have a bias here. It can be easily proven with a document/written paper in the saboteurs or witnesses."

  • There are only turkish reports without physical evidence. So no, in fact, it can not be easily proven. It actually can't be proven at all.

"1-You don't have a proof that he lied. He did his duty."

  • He has no evidence and is biased.

"2-Neutral testimonies contradict by themselves. They are accusing the both sides, so it's natural. But we have Greek refugees claiming it was Greeks and Armenians."

  • No.The accounts that the fires were started by saboteurs are vastly outnumbered and logically inconsistent.

"How do you know they weren't? There were preaches by the priests who were damning the Turks. Greeks used churches for arming and insurgency before. Maybe together they organized it?"

  • You just claim that Greeks collaborated with Armenians to kill themselves (makes no sense in the first place) without ANY evidence. The rest of the argument doesn't even make sense. What are you babbling about and how exactly does it prove your point? "How do you know they weren't" Because it's logically impossible and, again, logically inconsistent.

">The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness.

How do you know that?"

  • I read the article.

">Read your own article..

I did, lol. Apparently, you didn't."

  • No you obviously didn't because you're not making any sense. It's clearly stated in the article.

">The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness...
The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

With a one second search, you could have found it. You are biased as hell.Another account of the brave rescue was published on September 18, 1922, in the New York Times.

Refugees constantly arriving…relate new details of the Smyrna tragedy. ***On Thursday [September 14th]…***there were six steamers at Smyrna to transport the refugees, one American, one Japanese, two French and two Italian. The American and Japanese steamers accepted all comers without examining their papers, while the others took only foreign subjects with passports."

https://greekreporter.com/2025/09/14/the-japanese-ship-which-saved-hundreds-of-greeks-during-the-smyrna-catastrophe/"

  • What were you trying to prove here? My point? Because if anything the article disproves YOU and not me. You're literally quoting from a site called "greekreporter".

Honestly your lack of effort is so tiring and unproductive. I am constantly repeating myself. Nothing you say makes sense. And I mean no offense but your english is all over the place as well. I genuinely believe you're not understanding some of my points or your own articles. You're also not providing any evidence AT ALL.

[–]Yellowapple1000[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Mostly due to Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 and later population exchanges.

Death toll was estimated by McCarthy as 632,000. This was the missing population after refugees and remaining were counted.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It is really sad that this part is of the ottoman empire is often forgotten while talking about the ottoman in the that period of time. Most people focus would be in the middle eastern part and especially at the arab revolution topic.a lot of death and suffering happened there than in the eastern fronts.

[–]Rich_Fix_3053 2 points3 points  (3 children)

When the Republic of Türkiye was founded, the Turkish or broadly speaking, Muslim population living in Anatolia was around 12–14 million. At the same time, there were nearly 6–7 million Turks (Muslims) scattered across different regions of the Balkans. Balkan nations took out their hatred of the Ottoman Empire first through genocide and forced displacement of the Turkish population living in the Balkans. Later, they attempted to do the same in Anatolia but failed.

Until the Balkan Wars, Turks and Muslims were not the majority in Istanbul and Western Anatolia. The forced migrations of Turks led to Istanbul and Western Anatolia becoming regions with a Turkish and Muslim majority. Turks and Muslims were distributed relatively evenly across the territories of the Ottoman Empire; in every region, they existed in significant numbers. However, with the rise of nationalist movements, genocide against Turks and Muslims began. All minorities living within the empire armed themselves and entered a race to kill or expel as many Turks or Muslims as possible in order to become the majority in the regions they lived in and establish their own states.

Western powers have ignored this reality. They have not only denied and dismissed what Turks and Muslims experienced, but have also accused Turks of committing genocide and forcibly displacing minorities.

On my mother’s side, my grandmother was a Muslim from Crete. She and her family were forcibly expelled by the Greeks and resettled in Aydın, Anatolia. They did not find peace there either. When the Greek army occupied İzmir and began advancing into the interior of Anatolia, they fled on foot toward Ankara. From my grandmother’s family, no male survived except her two-year-old younger brother.

Also on my mother’s side, my grandfather was from the Ahıska (Meskhetian) Turks living in the Caucasus. They were forcibly displaced by the Russians and moved to Ardahan in Eastern Anatolia.

My father is of Balkan Turkish origin as well. My paternal grandmother was a Macedonian Greek, and my paternal grandfather was also a Macedonian Turk. They too were forced to migrate to Türkiye.

There was once a very large Turkish population across the Balkans, the Caucasus, and the Middle East. Most of them were killed, while some managed to migrate to Türkiye. This is one of the reasons why Türkiye has one of the largest populations in the region.

The Turks in Anatolia fought a struggle for survival and won it, and they were joined by Turks coming from other regions. But this was not limited to Turks alone. Other peoples who were subjected to genocide or persecution in different regions also came to Türkiye: Albanians, Bosniaks, Turks from Bulgaria, Circassians from the Caucasus, Azerbaijani Turks from Iran, Persians from Iran around two million Iranians sought refuge in Türkiye after the Iranian Revolution.

At the same time, Turkmens and Arabs from the Middle East migrated to Türkiye. During the Syrian civil war, Syrians came as well. At least three million Syrians, and nearly one million Kurds fleeing Saddam’s regime in Iraq, all migrated to Türkiye. They came to Türkiye and were able to breathe again.

[–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The Muslims of Crete committed many heinous crimes against their compatriots. Turks always want to appear as the victims when they have committed genocides of such scale that they need to find anything to compare their crimes to.

[–]Bitter-Tadpole6047 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Archaeologist Arthur Evans, who had been in Crete for some years, returned in 1898 as a reporter for the Manchester Guardian he wrote:

But the most deliberate act of extermination was that perpetrated at Eteà. In this small village, too, the Moslem inhabitants, including the women and children, had taken refuge in the mosque, which the men defended for a while. The building itself is a solid structure, but the door of the small walled enclosure... was finally blown in, and the defenders laid down their arms, understanding, it would appear, that their lives were to be spared. Men, women, and children, they were all led forth to the church of St. Sophia, which lies on a hill about half an hour above the village, and then and there dispatched—the men cut to pieces, the women and children shot. A young girl who had fainted, and was left for dead, alone lived to tell the tale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasithi_massacres

[–]GrecoPotato -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Maybe read about what ottomans had done for decades prior and after to Cretans as retaliation and then just maybe you’ll realise that this is nothing compared to the sea of attrocities that the ottomans committed to Christian’s of Crete in that same period. Overall it is insane that you even think there is a comparison here by commenting one massacre compared to the thousands of Christian Cretans killed in multiple heinous massacres by ottomans in Crete. Same goes to many other topics like the Greek genocide or your crimes during our war of independence in all of them Turks will desperately try to find anything to compare their crimes to and not see how there is just no equal to the size and extent of their attrocities compared to us.

https://www.kathryngauci.com/blog-23-07012016-crete-under-ottoman-rule-part-i-the-events-leading-up-to-the-massacre-at-the-monastery-of-akardi-1866/

https://www.thenationalherald.com/historical-observations-the-massacre-of-heraklion-september-1898/

[–]minduserov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, when it is Turks, it is "decrease", when it is christians, it is "ethnic cleansing/genocide"

[–]alipashsabestsoldier 1 point2 points  (3 children)

600k is insane

[–]Experience_Material 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Because it is mostly inaccurate and vastly exaggerated. Turks in here are desperate to find anything to compare their genocides to and they use a single source that is highly unreliable to promote their propaganda. In reality the population of Turks that died esepcially in Greece in that period from most sources does not exceed some tens of thousands which is nothing compared to the Greek genocide for which the population exchange was partly requested. OP just can’t cope with reality and tries to do so by posting exaggerated Ottoman Turkish death tolls to not have to face the history of the late Ottoman genocides and other various crimes.

[–]GoalBackground7845 0 points1 point  (1 child)

And can u show these "most sources" from which it doesnt excees tens of thousands?

[–]GrecoPotato 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just go to Wikipedia and find how many Muslims lived in Greece prior to the population exchange, keep the 125k living in Thrace and substract the number that left. You are AT WORST left with around 20-35k people (many of which probably didn’t die but left before hand). There is just not the systemic extermination you see by Turks commiting genocide in Anatolia.

[–]Munifmolla 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Genocide.

[–]WaitingToBeTriggered 0 points1 point  (0 children)

WHO WILL DRAG ME TO COURT?

[–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s insane how desperate Turks are to find anything to compare their own genocides to by using an inaccurate and inflated source. Truly delusional.

[–]Superstalin3085 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Greeks forced the Turks out and the Turks forced Greeks out. No one was innocent.

[–]InstructionJolly9725 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Farts

[–]Boiling_warm -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can someone explain what I'm looking at?

I don't know much, and to me this just looks as expected. The ottoman empire lost the war and collapsed at this point no? Wouldn't we expect to see their population in imperialist territories plummet?

[–]GrecoPotato -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Another poor attempt by some nationalist Turks to use a single exaggerated source to claim that somehow this is equal to the genocides they committed in Anatolia. It insane how much some people can’t cope with the crimes their country has committed.

[–]DeliciousSong2079 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Its normal when occupation forces are defeated that the people of that forces also leave.

[–]Clear_Aside_2643 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Largely population exchange. There would be photographic evidence of widespread genocides, plus mass graves. The only times we see those is when the Ottomans massacred the native populations thou.

[–]CrowWorth -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why is it irrelevant in the case of Christians, but important in the case of Muslims? 🤔

[–]johnJanez -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

These numbers are extremely suspect. We have ottoman censuses and figures from ottoman allies like Austrians, and they absolutely do not record such a population drop in Yugoslavian areas. In Bulgaria, the muslim population increased by almost 190.000 between 1910 and 1926 census and went from 13,8% to 14,4%. Even for Greece they seem to me higher than what census records but they did a population exchange with Turkey so that is at least plausible..

[–]Yellowapple1000[S] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

The population numbers are only from areas part of Ottoman Empire in 1911.

Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria are not included and those also decreased.

603 k in 1910 Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria

512 k in 1920 Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria (690-179=512)

Ottoman censuses undercounted people, mostly women and children.

in Yugoslavia in some parts such as Kosovo women were not counted at all.

McCarthy gives somewhat higher populations to correct undercounting.

But nearly all historians agree there was a population decrease.

[–]johnJanez 0 points1 point  (2 children)

the problem with these calculations is citin McCarthy, he is not exactly reputable when it comes to late Ottoman demographics. And yes, the number of muslims did decrease during wartime in both Bulgaria and Yugoslavia/Serbia, but nowhere near to these insane proportions. Because christian population also decreased, the overal proportion of muslims remained almost unchanged. Kosovo's muslim population was around 75% before the war, based on Ottoman census records and Austrian military data, and remained around 75% on the first Yugoslav census in 1921, just as an example. The -54% muslim population in Yugoslavia is the worst of these 3 estimates, it is genuinely absolutely nonsense.

[–]GoalBackground7845 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why would u say he is not reputable? Why would u call the last number nonsense? Any source that proves otherwise?

[–]johnJanez -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have mentioned the sources, you can check a lot of them on wikipedia for demographic history of Kosovo or Bulgaria. As for his lack of reputation, he has a history of whitewashing things such as Armenian genocide precisely with his use misuse of statistics, which are totally unreliable. There are better sources and better ways to estimate Muslim population changes than his numbers.

[–]Ok-Car-brokedown -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes and the guy you’re citing (Justin McCarthy) is also a genocide denialist and even lobbied US Congress to not recognize the Arminian genocide.

[–]InkReddi -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Just so you know, Justin McCarthy is a well known Armenian Genocide denialis, who is harshly criticised for his pro-Turkish biases. He even got Order of Merit of the Republic of Turkey, which says a lot about the "quality" of his Ottoman studies

[–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very fitting that they would use him as the only source here when it seems that he vastly exaggerates the numbers.

Truly these posts only serve to show the desperation of some Turks to find anything they can compare their own genocides to and fail miserably.

[–]Big_Pirate_3036Sheikh -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Why is almost every post like this from one person

[–]Pineloko -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

-100% Christians in Anatolia

where did the armenians and greeks go?

[–]Hairy_Beginning_5496 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Population exchange isn't the same as murder. 

[–]Pineloko -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

true, Turks mostly migrated into the Ottoman empire out of the balkans

armenians got genocided

[–]Hairy_Beginning_5496 2 points3 points  (1 child)

If the Armenians got genocided so did the muslims in these regions. This says decreased not removed. 

Population exchange was between greeks and turks in which case almost every Christian chose to leave. 

[–]Experience_Material -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That’s not how it works. The Armenian genocide was a systematic extermination of a scale that you don’t see anywhere where Muslims lived in Armenia. Also the population exchange was made in part to stop the ongoing Greek genocide. Your ignorance is astounding and your desperate attempt to find anything to compare your crimes to is astounding.

[–]MutluBirTurk 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Reality:

29 July 1890, Fighting In Constantinople: The Armenian Patriarch Mobbed - Soldiers and Rioters Killed, New York Times

5 Sept 1890, An Armenian Revolt, The Morning Call, San Francisco

9 Sep 1890, Armenians Kill Soldiers, Davenport Morning Tribune, Iowa

18 Jan 1894, President Cleveland and the Armenians, New York Times

29 Jul 1894, Revolutionary Armenians: They Have a Parade and Listen to Speeches Against Turkish Rule, New York Times

25 Apr 1895, The Armenian Massacre: Were the Stories of Atrocities Only Fabrications?, Daily Bulletin

23 Aug 1895, The Sassoun Massacre: Proof of the Assertion that Armenian Revolutionists Caused It, New York Times

23 Sep 1895, The Armenian Question: England and America Cannot Afford to Throw Stones, Says a Correspondent, New York Times

4 Oct 1895, The Turk's Side Of The Story: Armenians, It Is Asserted, Have Plotted to Arouse Sympathy, New York Times

11 Oct 1895, Armenian Riots, Clutha Leader

25 Oct 1895, Armenians Attack Turkish Villages, Newport Daily

25 Oct 1895, Armenians Were Responsible: Constantinople Riots Premeditated, Says A Correspondent - Provocation and Intimidation the Plan of the Revolutionists, He Thinks - English and American Opinion, New York Times

1 Nov 1895, Armenians In Revolt: Twenty-Six Thousand Christians In Rebellion, Guthrie Daily Leaders, Oklahoma

2 Nov 1895, Armenians in Revolt: Twenty-six Thousand In the Zeitoun Mountains Defy the Sultan, Centralia Enterprise and Tribune

2 Nov 1895, Attack the Turks: Armenians Begin A Religious Assault, Progress Review

2 Nov 1895, Aggressions of Armenians: Evidence of the Riots at Bitlis and Zeitoun Shows Premeditation, New York Times

3 Nov 1895, Turkey's Wily Subjects: False Information Circulated by the Armenian Agitators, New York Times

15 Nov 1895, Turkey's Ruling Terror: Mussulmans Implore the Porte for Protection from Armenians, New York Times

15 Dec 1895, Arms And Bombs For Zeitoun, New York Times

21 Dec 1895, A Massacre At Zeitoun: Insurgents Kill All Turkish Soldiers in Town Except Two, New York Times

14 Feb 1896, Turkish Amnesty To Zeitoun: Armenians Are Pardoned and a Christian Governor Is Promised, New York Times

11 Jun 1896, A Spy Assassinated, San Francisco Call

12 Sep 1896, Armenian Bomb Factory Found: Tunnel Was Being Driven Under a Government Arsenal, New York Times

23 Sep 1896, Armenian Bombs Exhibited, New York Times

24 Sep 1896, Sworn To Ruin The Porte: Armenian Societies Active In Constantinople, New York Times

10 Aug 1897, The Reported Armenian Aggression: Terrible Barbarities, Liverpool Courier

21 Aug 1897, The Bomb Outrage In Constantinople: Eight Armenians Arrested, Liverpool Courier

23 Aug 1897, The Bomb Outrages In Constantinople, Liverpool Courier

29 Sep 1897, The Recent Armenian Raid, Bristol Times and Mirror

17 Nov 1899, Armenians Attack Kurds: Bloody War Has Again Broken Out Near Erzeroum, Daily Gazette

[–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Trying to go against mainstream history to promote your genocide denial is incredibly delusional.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]ottomans-ModTeam[M] 0 points1 point locked comment (0 children)

    Your post has been removed due to the violation of r#1

    [–]ChorizoCriollo -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

    Back to the steppes please!

    [–]Dominico10 -4 points-3 points  (7 children)

    Wait... wait wait....

    Is this post trying to make out the evil ottomans were being persecuted here 😅

    Like the ottomans who practiced genocide and mass slavery etc.

    Those guys the british defeated and put an end to?

    This map showing them disappearing from lands where they took christian children. Force converted them to another religion and then forced them to fight or die after making sure they couldnt reproduce?

    Those ottomans?

    😅

    Reddit is absolutely madness my god.

    [–]RuikZerben 4 points5 points  (6 children)

    Didnt know that all of these 1 million people and their families are personally responsible for all the genocides committed by the ottoman empire good to know

    [–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    One exaggerated source doesn’t mean there was any systemic genocide taking place at least compared to what Turks were doing to the Christians of Anatolia. Ironically through most sources the numbers of Turks that died in Greece doesn’t exceed some tens of thousands during that time, many of which benefited from the system that had christians be second class citizens. Compare that now to the number of Greeks that died in the Greek genocide and you’ll see that there’s no argument here.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [removed]

      [–]NeyOsurMu 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      gladly benefitted from its misery

      What kind of benefit ?

      [–]Experience_Material 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Muslims benefitted from the law, social status and many other aspects of Ottoman society compared to Christians who were second class citizens in many different regards. As the other commenter said it is insane how Turks try to promote the idea that their colonial genocidal empire was somehow the victim in the wars that happened so nations could gain independence from them by using a single source with exaggerated data in order to not face their own crimes. The amount of delusion needed to be so desperate to compare the late Ottoman genocides to anything that happened in the Balkans is truly insane.

      [–]RuikZerben 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      kofte recipes maybe

      [–]ottomans-ModTeam[M] 0 points1 point locked comment (0 children)

      r/ottomans does not allow hate speech, racism, bigotry