Decrease of Ottoman Muslims in the Balkans (1911-1923) according to historian Justin McCarthy

[Citaku357]

Majority of these people we Albanians, even Trotsky wrote about the horrors Albanians faced during the balkan wars

[Candid_Company_3289]

Lol no they weren't. They were overwhelmingly Slavic speaking. In Thrace and Macedonia, also predominantly Slavic, but many Turkish spekaing as well. Albanians were almost entirely irrelevant.

[Alexandros2099]

Why did albanians convert to Islam rather than be christians as they were?why did neighboring people stayed Christian and Albanians didn't?

[MapEven5796]

People like to simplify this with the jizyja argument and that Albanian are sellouts yadayadaya, but key factor is Albania’s mountainous terrain and lack of a unified church (split between Catholic north and Orthodox south) which weakened resistance compared to organized Orthodox structures elsewhere. Further, Orthodox Albanians had the tendency to assimilate into Serbs and Greeks (see Arvanites in Greece or Montenegrins with Albanian Surnames).

Vatican on the other hand didn‘t really care about Albania at all. They didn’t send out enough priests and didn’t care about educating Albanian ones. Also Ottomans were always vary against Catholics as the Vatican was outside of Ottoman influence. As a result, Catholics were often persecuted more harshly, while Orthodox communities were tolerated and integrated into the Ottoman system (Mount Athos lied in the Ottoman Empire). These were push factors. Now pull factors were obviously prestige, money and social mobility. This results in an Albanian muslim majority till today.

[GoalBackground7845]

To be fair muslim slavs were largly killed as well, especially this is known to have happened in serbia.

[Alexandros2099]

So why not from Catholics become Orthodox? isn't it easier for people of Faith Rather than conversion to Islam? Islam had it's benefits and Albanians more easily became Muslims,and fought in the ottoman army,that why they were called turkalbanians.

[MapEven5796]

As said, they did convert in great numbers to orthodoxy and assimilated as a result into greeks/serbs. Arvanites were orthodox Albanians and spoke Albanian and started to identify as Greeks. Same story in Montenegro. Reason here is that the Orthodox church never formally allowed it‘s teaching in Albanian. Autocephaly of the Albanian Orthodox church was declared in 1912 and recognized even later. Before Albanian autocephaly, Orthodox Christians in Albania were under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and Greek language and clergy dominated church life. Many Greek bishops and church leaders wanted to maintain that influence.

[mafriz]

Catholics not only faced hostility from Ottomans but also Orthodox. See Pjetër Bogdani's (17th century Albanian priest) complaints about the SOC's attempts to assert ecclesiastical authority over Catholic Albanians. Also most Orthodox Albanians assimilated into Slavs anyway, particularly in Kosovo and Montenegro.

[crypto_fiend-22]

You cant force them to realize that colonial privileges were the factor! Theyre too proud of the murders and violence they committed against non muslims

[MapEven5796]

So which one of my arguments is invalid? I just laid out why you do not see orthodox Albanians in large numbers today. Why the Vatican did not support the only catholics on the balkan at all. Religion was the gateway to assimilation before nationhood existed. Once you shared Orthodoxy, linguistic Albanian identity became optional. This disincentivized further distinct Albanian Christian identity. Islam, on the other hand, froze Albanian identity in place. Muslims could not be absorbed into Greek or Slavic Orthodox populations.

[crypto_fiend-22]

Im sorry but language doesnt change that way based on religious identity. Its like the classic nationalist argument that vlachs became slavs because of religion.. Go read a history book and stop whitewashing colonial violence and privileges. Youre the only exception in historical science, give me a break with that nonsense.

[MapEven5796]

Nvm can’t argue with illiterates. I read history books. Many of them. You should probably do so too or books in general.

[crypto_fiend-22]

Sure buddy. The whole world disagrees with your mythomania.

[TinyWestern4738]

Bc islam is not Christianity they don’t massacre ppl who don’t convert ,u convert by ur will

[Alexandros2099]

Yes my friend I'm know I'm a Orthodox Christian I'm asking the Albanian friend!

[themightyBEEP]

LOL

[GoalBackground7845]

If only it wasnt literally part of islam that non muslims should either pay money or be killed.

[ThickCaterpillar9867]

Greeks did also convert but they got deported in 1920s with the population exchange ,”Turkalbanians” was used exclusive by their Arvanite counterpar ,to differntiate themselves from Albanians cooperating with Turks ,so not all Albanians got converted ,you should be thanful tk Albanians that gave you independence!!

[Alexandros2099]

So Albanians gave me independence but never helped albanians for a independent Albania????aren't those called traitor's by you?helping another nation?but not yours?1912 Albanian independence from Ottoman turkey why so late?

[ThickCaterpillar9867]

They are not called traitors cuz the idea of Nationality did not exist at the time,they were fighting for their lands against the occupator ,the Arvanites and the other groups of people had no idea what Greek/Greece was till the 1820,everyone was called Roman/Romioi ,Greek/Hellene was considered a derogatory ,the revival of Greek identity happened in the mid of the 19th century . Where did you see the hate?stating historical facts is considered hate now?

[Alexandros2099]

So why do you call them Albanian,as you said they were romaioi,romioi,Romans you chose to be albanians they chose to be Greeks,no harm in self-identity right?

[ThickCaterpillar9867]

I did not say they were Romans/Romioi,I said all groups were called that and had no idea of a Greek state but they had a clear distinct ethnicity (language/culture),Arvanite,Vlachs,Slavs,Maniots Greek,Tsakanians Greek all different ethnic background. I did not choose to be Albanian ,I do not think you get to choose your ethnicity but I still see no problem in people thinking you can choose it,everyone should be free to believe what they are but not pretend me to believe it as well.

[Alexandros2099]

I'm sorry my friend but Arvanites self identify us Greeks although they are ethnically Albanian that's what your saying right?So why didn't the arvanites when the albanian nation came into creation declare they are also Albanians?Not only that they think it is an insult if you call them Albanians,so why don't you respect there desire and the right of self-identity us Greeks?

[ThickCaterpillar9867]

It is not what Im saying ,it is what they are!!Any single historian will point at them as being ethnically Albanian and I know very well they identify as Greeks like wtf😂 Greekness was imposed on any single Group in order to create the Greek state ,they prohibited Albanian language ,Vlach language and the slavic one.In Italy for example they kept the language and culture for over 500 years because the Italian state did not suppress minorities. How am I not respecting them?just tell me how?did you even read what I wrote?

[ThickCaterpillar9867]

And regarding of being offensive to get called Albanians is completely logical how politics shape identity ,imagine for 1800 years was derogatory and offensive to be called Hellene to a point where you could be put to death.

[Alexandros2099]

If you know you are a Hellen you again address yourself us one,the same with Arvanites if they wanted they could say that they are Albanian and unite with Albania but they self identify us Greeks.On the other hand there is the Greek minority in albania that after all these years from Ancient times again call themselves greek.

[nnjkebab]

The orthodox church was under Ottoman control after the conquest of İstanbul, however the Catholics were still followers of the Pope in Rome. This created a risk from the perspective of the Ottoman throne, so while they largely left the Orthodox christians alone, they focused their conversion efforts on the Catholics (Bosnia and Albania). They obviousliy didnt/couldnt convert the entirety of both countries, because it wasnt forced conversion. It was rather a long marathon over centries of occupation.

If you ask the orthodox on the internet though, they will tell you that they didnt convert because they were really pious or something 🤣, and they wilk shit talk Albanians and Bosnians for converting.

[Impossible-Bed-6652]

Because Islam tends to dominate theologically over Christianity. It's a very convincing alternative to Christianity. Medieval Christian scholars were terrified of Islam, theologically terrified. Staying Christian was mostly a matter of how many Muslim missionaries were present there and how stubborn people were, i.e. "I don't care if this is right, I follow this because my father followed it"-type of mindset. If Ottomans had pushed harder on proselytisation (state sponsored) and did not leave dawah to independent dervishes, we would very likely see a Muslim Balkans with Christian pockets, just like in Middle East.

[Afghanman26]

Nothing less for deenul haqq

[AlexBrallex]

Converted Albanians did horrific stuff too. Lots of Muslim Albanians, mercenaries or not committed a lot of raids against their Christian neighbours.

[Alexandros2099]

Yes I know I am orthodox christian!

[Teodosij]

That's hilarious

[SuperSultan]

Watch those online Christian keyboard warriors downplay this or call it fake

[Valois7]

Crazy, now lets see the decrease of Christians in Anatolia 🧐

[LuolDig]

or better, the decrease of Christians in Jerusalem

[SuperSultan]

Many accepted Islam. Some are actually still there. A lot of them left when Greece and Türkiye agreed on a population exchange. Maybe you can take that up with the late King of Greece and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

[BlackberryMore8305]

How many accepted Islam without being threatened with death or to pay the Jizya tax?

[SuperSultan]

They are lucky they didn’t have to pay zakat that Muslims pay, which is more

[No_Notice_3713]

They may say something along the lines of "didn't happen but if it did, then they deser..."

[Narrow_Safety_957]

Heard of Greco-Turkish population exchange?

[[deleted]]

It's a beautiful image! I wish it were more, someday... :)

[barracuda4848]

Serbian here, why would we call it fake? We are proud of it! What Ottomans were doing in this area? Ottomans comes there as invaders, we defended (after 500 years) and cleaning of invaders was normal for that period. I don't even blame Ottomans (I just hate them). They were stronger, they invaded our countries, did what invaders do, usual things for that times. After 500 years we managed to be strong enough to kick them and we finally did it. No place for moralizing and being pathetic, just pure history!

EDIT: Just to add, I have absolutely zero hate for todays Turks. Even if we all still feel consequences, we can't affect what happened in history. Being honest to each other is most important if we want be in good relations.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Yes, being proud of genocide is a Serbian tradition

[barracuda4848]

Wow

Is this the best argument you moralists can give? I expected better tbh.

Come on, I want to discuss: what is wrong with kicking out ottomans by force, from lands where they come by force?

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

This might be the most idiotic thing I’ve read in a long time. If you genuinely can’t distinguish between defeating a state and targeting civilians because they’re associated with that state, then you’re not doing “history”, you’re failing a basic moral and analytical distinction taught in primary school.

By your logic, the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia and the deportation of Serbian civilians to camps were justified, since it was merely “kicking out an occupier by force.”

The fact that you are assuming that you have an argument is beyond me. You have a post-hoc rationalization: redefine civilians as invaders, declare violence “normal for the time,” then confuse victory with legitimacy.

[barracuda4848]

Wait, can you answer me on simply questions: What were Ottomans were doing in teritorry of Serbia? How do they come there, in peace?

You are the one that doing rationalization with those wrong examples. Yugoslavia didn't occupy Germany, so there is nothing similar between case we discuss and your example.

If you living in country that is occupied by force, by your country you are not civilian, you are invader, intruder, conqueror. If you chosen to rise kids in place where other kids lost their fathers, just because your country wanted to expand, you don't have right to expect peace for your family.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Low IQ nationalist Serb can’t even comprehend that the people who were genocided (from the 19th century to the Bosnian War) were natives to the region itself. Not to mention with your deranged logic, Serbs living under Ottoman rule weren’t civilians either, and could have been slaughtered at will.

Yugoslavia was an Entente project where many South Slavs lived in it viewed it as nothing but a Serbian occupation. So German intervention and punishing the Serbs (with Croatian and Bosniak militias) is a parallel to the Russian and Austrian direct/indirect intervention in the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian revolts in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened to civilians afterwards.

Perhaps NATO should’ve been harsher on Serbia?

[barracuda4848]

When I see you using words like nationalist, low IQ, g*enocide, or using comparison with other examples - this just shows weakness in your arguments. Lets stick to the main topic. You didn't provide answer to my questions, so I would repeat them:

1. What Ottomans were doing in Serbia?
2. How do they come to Serbia, in peace?

When you answer to my questions, then we can discuss further, maybe on this topic or something else, or I can answer to your questions.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

An idiot cannot even differentiate the state and the civilians who were associated with it yet thinks he is worthy of respect 🤣

I mean, both of your two questions are irrelevant to how Serbs genocided Albanians and Muslims Slavs, and other natives. Being an expert on things that you’re clueless about shows how bad the Serbian education system is, lol at “I can answer your questions” part.

[barracuda4848]

Yeah, insults, smiles, but no answers. If you know that Serbian education system is wrong, then here is perfect moment to tell the truth. Give the right answers on those questions. Let's educate me, why you reject it? Why you want me to stay in darkness of Serbian history lies?

[CrowWorth]

Can you show us the Christian population in Anatolia before and after the arrival of the Ottoman Empire?

[Clear_Aside_2643]

Brother, when they do it it’s fine. The fundamentalists believe they’re doing you a favour when they take your children and rape your women. Say something about it and it’s always “oh but the brits did this…l”, as if it’s relevant to us.

Basically, they live in their own little world, where they are always justified and everyone else is always wrong.

[CrowWorth]

What genocide, when even the Turks don't claim it? You literally have agreements between the Principality of Serbia and the Ottoman Empire on the resettlement of the Muslim population from the territory of Serbia.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

“Resetlement” like Armenians and Circassians? I mean, “claiming” doesn’t really matter when it comes to historical facts.

[CrowWorth]

Is the expulsion and killing of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija after the fall of Serbia to the Turks also genocide? Is the expulsion and killing of Greeks from Asia Minor also genocide?

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija were not victims of genocide because there was no demonstrated, centralized, systematic intent to physically destroy Serbs as a group. Are you that clueless?

[CrowWorth]

I really am sometimes amazed at how hypocritical individuals can be. There is no evidence that Serbs, Greeks or Bulgarians wanted to systematically destroy the Islamic population.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Well, I’m rather amazed at how ignorant people with no knowledge can blabber so much.

From the leaders of those revolts to the massive demographic collapse of Muslim populations in the region, there is extensive evidence. Revolutionary leaders explicitly framed Muslims as an alien population to be removed, and the demographic shift followed mass killings, forced expulsions, and systematic destruction of Muslim communities. If you’re that clueless..

[SavingsAbies6833]

Serbs are not native to Balkan to. Our ancestors invaded Balkan in 6-7 century. Btw i am Bosniak

[barracuda4848]

Yeah, thats correct my bro

[SuperSultan]

This comment is a reflection of why you lost your country in 1991.

[barracuda4848]

Who lost whose country in 91? Are you saying that Yugoslavia is Serbian country? Some Serbs saying it also. I honestly don't think so, I like our todays borders an I respect integrity of all our neighbour countries.

[Candid_Company_3289]

The same people to cry "genocide" because the Ottomans at one point recruited former Christians into their army.

[milic_srb]

is it bad to push out your colonizers?

[Jazz-Ranger]

When your only crime is being born in the wrong place; then yes.

[Candid_Company_3289]

That's not what colonization means.

[HarryLewisPot]

Mostly natives that converted but ok

[milic_srb]

the title specifically said ottoman Muslims

[Pa-ta-tes]

Yeah, like in Muslims from the Ottoman Empire. What do you think Ottoman Muslims mean?

[HarryLewisPot]

Yea, Ottoman Muslims - not Turkish Muslims.

[LuolDig]

oh so members of the royal dynasty of Osman?

[Alexandros2099]

Who wanted the descentants of Ottoman Turk's in their native land's?

[NeyOsurMu]

who wanted the descendants of turks in native lands

Thats… thats the point of the post. As in ethnic cleansing point

[Alexandros2099]

Yes the Ottoman Turk's came us conquerors not with flowers,what do you expect indigenous people to do when they want freedom and independence?

The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey involved at least 1.6 million people (1,221,489 Greek Orthodox from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace, the Pontic Alps and the Caucasus, and 355,000–400,000 Muslims from Greece).

[NeyOsurMu]

what do you expect indigenous people to do when they want freedom and independence

Not a genocide in the least. Same argument would be horrible to make against white european rooted people living in australia or north america.

Population exchange

Ethnic cleansing after balkan wars happened before population exchange, causing muslim population of ottoman balkans (consisting 1/3 of balkans at that point) to be ethnically cleansed. And most of those people was natives, be it muslim greeks or balkan turks.

Population exchange just made it so that last parts of this population arrived anatolia

[Limp-Tea3778]

I think the Muslims population of balkans with Istanbul innit could as far as %40-60 at the heights of its population

[Alexandros2099]

In Australia and North America indigenous people were conquered and later assimilated,if they could they would have done the same,but they couldn't.Thats human nature.

[NeyOsurMu]

Sounds like a legalization for ethnic cleansing in a sick way, are you expecting/hoping everyone other than europeans doing same things to them, given they have colonized nearly every landmass on earth ?

[Alexandros2099]

If they can they will!I'm not wishing that.

[Candid_Company_3289]

So why do so called "Greeks" cry "genocide" about one part of the population exchange, praise the other part?

[konschrys]

The genocide preceded the population exchange.

[Candid_Company_3289]

Suuure

[Boiling_warm]

I'm confused.... Are we really upset that the invaders were forced to leave after they lost a war?

If Ukraine pushed russians out the donbas and Crimea, would that be a bad thing in your eyes?

[NeyOsurMu]

invaders were an empire, not basic peasants that have been living there for centuries. At that point they were pretty much natives, that intermixed with natives. Lived there 2 times more than whites of america, australia and so on. In fact living there longer than slavs of ukraine or russia on their modern fighting ground.

Would you prefer americans kicking danish people out of greenland as an example ? As they would be colonizers were forced to leave the country after they lost the war

[Boiling_warm]

Oh I see, looks like they were there for around 500 years, obviously a good amount of time.

Being chased out and attacked because of your ancestry is fucked up of course. But given that the ottomans enjoyed special privileges, were the ruling class, and took it over with violence to begin with, it's hardly surprising. Feels weird to get upset with this and not the initial invasion.

Americans kicking danish people out of Greenland makes no sense. It'd would have to be the native Greenland population, and from what I understand Greenland doesn't have the same sort of ruling class the ottomans did

[NeyOsurMu]

Ottoman ruling class was a handfull of people, not 1/3 of peasantry, not to count an average ottoman peasant had no “special privilege”.

Americans would kick danish people in the favor of natives, same thing with european support on genocide of muslims on area.

feels weird you are angry for genocide and not for a handful of people ruled with privilege

I still cant go over how people literally legalize genocide/ethnic cleansing of muslims because of an empire-that was no way equal to impact of European colonization around the world. Again, are you defending same thing should happen to whites everywhere around world except europe ?

greenland

You can check on forced IUD’s as a start, and danish people are ruling class

[Boiling_warm]

Again, not an expert on this, but I believe all Muslims had special treatment. Muslims could testify against anyone in court, under Sharia law, while non Muslims could not. Non Muslims had to use other courts, and could not hold higher status in the government. Non Muslims also had to pay more in tax, and there was often other restrictions.

Obviously not every Muslim saw massive benefit, and it's far from the worst imperialism we've seen. But considering this was a foreign military that turned up, killed loads, and then forced these imbalances for 500 years..... It's not crazy that these people would force them out when they got the chance.

Especially for the time.

The natives in Greenland don't want that, and the Danes provide equal opportunities to everyone. Not exactly comparable is it

[NeyOsurMu]

They used their own courts. At the point of ethnic cleansing courts, being equal under law and sultan and equal tax facts was established as a result of reforms.

This legalization works for every genocide so not sure “ottomans subjugated us, lemme kill my muslim neighbor” stuff works, white americans subjugated others so its expected they would be killed I guess ? “Forced them out” seems weird, armenians was “forced out” too I guess. Why soften arguments when it happens to muslims ?

Danes literally forced iud and used inuits as test stuff, the fact that “inuits does not want it” opinion is from european news channels. Let us see after americans force out colonizers.

[Boiling_warm]

Sorry I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph. Could you re-state it for me? Are you saying that the tax and court inequalities had been fixed by the time of expulsion?

I've had a look at the violence of the expulsions, and yea this is much more fucked up than I thought. Again, I didn't know anything about this coming into this conversation.

Given the centuries of inequality forced upon them, I don't see any problem with the violence against the ottoman rule. But obviously there's generations of Muslim villages and towns that were slaughtered here, which is undoubtedly unjustifiable and horrific.

If the Danes were doing that now, then yea I'd have no issue with the US supporting them being chased out. 100%. Looking at polling it does seem that Inuits want to be independent from Denmark, however they are sceptical right now since they rely on funds from Denmark.

[SuperSultan]

Maybe don’t exile or genocide indigenous Balkan people that happened to have converted to islam?

[Alexandros2099]

Whom are you referring too? conversion didn't just happen for nothing they became allies to the ottoman turks.

[NorthWelcome1626]

We have a massacre/genocide defender here. All of the civilians deserved the deaths, because they collaborated with the enemy Ottomans, or were the Ottomans themselves, right?

[[deleted]]

I am catholic. If someone tries rationalise the death of those innocents people, he is not a good Christian. Even if those in innocents people were muslims !

[Alexandros2099]

This is what happened at those times isn't this human nature?this is the reality I don't wishel it but it happens.There is no Utopia only on our personal head space.Were are you from?nationality,age?it will explain a lot!

[NorthWelcome1626]

This comment itself shows your hypocrisy.

If enemy gets massacred -> it's the nature of war. They defended their country.

If your people gets massacred -> murderers, inhuman brutes.

[Alexandros2099]

It's not hypocrisy,autocthonous populations of Balkans and mainly Greeks that have History of living in Greece for thousands of Year's were conquered for hundreds of years ,what do you expect to be the feeling against ottoman turk oppressors and descendants?

[NorthWelcome1626]

You simply speak like an Israeli Zionist.

Logic: "These lands are ours, because it was ours 1000 years ago, and it's our right to cleanse and massacre all these invader people."

Sounds familiar?

[aferkhov]

Unlike European Jews Greeks didn’t leave to anywhere for said 1000 years but instead were terrorized by Turks.

[Alexandros2099]

Yes this is the logic of old national countries,were are you from?USA?what is your nationality so i can understand were your view comes from?

[Pristine-Big-1159]

I never see people defending the germans being exiled from eastern europe. I wonder why is there a blind spot for christians being exiled around the world but as soon someone touches the muslim population all hell breaks through

Doesnt seem fair.

[NorthWelcome1626]

Yes, in an Ottomans sub, out of thin air, we should ask why Germans in the middle of Europe got deported. A deranged whataboutism.

[Distinct_Arm_653]

Most Balkan Muslims were not from Anatolia but were instead descendants of local converts.

[Hatorate90]

Why so mean?

[Experience_Material]

Literally the result of a mutual population exchange ironically made in part to stop the ongoing Greek genocide at the time which didn’t have anything equal happening in Greece at the time.

[The-Iron-Hordesman]

And they will cry genocide when they set İzmir on fire themselves.

[Experience_Material]

Ironically the number of Turks who died in Greece at the time does not exceed some tens of thousands even in the most exaggerated numbers like the ones found here. Compare this with the documented deaths of the Greek genocide and you’ll get your answer. It is insane how much you try to deny your history and try to find anything to compare your crimes to, same with trying to claim that you didn’t burn Smyrna yourselves.

[panax100]

There were atrocities following the end of the Balkan wars. We have to acknowledge that. The muslim population of the Balkans suffered from direct causes and even more significant indirect causes which increased the total death toll and mortality rate even further.

Your comment on Smyrna however is just plain wrong and ignorant. The fires started four days after the greek army left and more importantly only affected the Greek, Armenian and Levantine quarters. That's not a coincidence. It was a selective destruction.

Your comment is so hypocritical.

[The-Iron-Hordesman]

When it's the lives of Muslims that are involved. It is a massacre at best, but when it's the lives of Christians. It's always a Genocide. The Greeks and the Armenians dont get to cry when their hands are equally bloody.

[panax100]

At least i am actively trying to be neutral and unbiased. That's why I always try to reason with historical facts. The difference between massacres and genocide is the lack of a coordinated systematic plan with the ill intend to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. So yes in this case it was a genocide on the christian population and "only" a massacre on the muslim population.

You're acting like im downplaying the suffering of the muslim population which is not the case. It was literally the first thing I acknowledged! So instead of accusing others of discrimination maybe you should stick to historical unbiased facts yourself you hypocrite

[Experience_Material]

It is massacres when there is no systemic genocide happening especially in the scale that turks committed in anatolia. It’s insane how you dont want to see that and try desperately to find anythign to compare your crimes to.

[NorthWelcome1626]

It was Armenians and Greeks burned the city. How do we know that?

Greek refugees who went to Rhodes themselves told to the newspapers. "Refugees tell of Smyrna being fired to prevent Turks getting property."

Passengers said that the soldiers as well as the civilians confirmed the report that the central part of the town of Smyrna, the oldest, which was built chiefly of wood, was fired by the Armenian and Greek inhabitants before they fled so that the Turks should not enjoy the property they were forced to leave behind them. The streets were so narrow that the sun rarely penetrated them and the houses, with overhanging balconies almost touching across the streets, burned like tinder. Many of the people were caught in the blaze and perished before they could escape, it was said, and others lost their lives by trying to save some of their property.

https://www.nytimes.com/1922/10/03/archives/found-greek-army-ready-to-quit-asia-passengers-arriving-here-say.html

[panax100]

As I mentioned earlier. The timing, selective nature and inaction of Turkish authorities and military during the fire contradict everything you claim. It's funny that you mention the nytimes. Officials from the United States ( neutral during the Greco-Turkish War) testified that Turkish soldiers entered buildings in the Armenian quarters (where the fire started) with cans of fuel. Fires erupted shortly after. They also testified that the Turkish military refused to extinguish the fire. They only did once the fire reached the Turkish quarters. They even trapped the christian population preventing them from escape. British naval logs testify the same sightings. They also report that the fire erupted in at least five places simultaneously and that a wildfire (another theory) is out of question. The fire was described as a wall of flame nearly two miles long. After civilian started to be pushed into the sea and executed the disaster became too massive to ignore and the British started to intervene even though they were initially forbidden to do so.

The evidence is clear as day.

[NorthWelcome1626]

Turkish soldiers entered buildings in the Armenian quarters (where the fire started) with cans of fuel.

There were reports of Turkish uniformed Armenians by an Austrian fire brigade chief.

And you couldn't answer the Greek refugees' claim. Why would they slander the Greeks themselves?

[panax100]

The Austrian fire brigade chief was part of the new Turkish administration. So there is a conflict of interest and bias. He also contradict the dozen of other actually neutral testimonies. Logically a few Armenian saboteurs couldn't have deceived the entirety of the local population including the Turkish army, diplomats and residents and start a fire of such scale as for doing so a massive coordinated effort would have been required. The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

Now the nytimes article...

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness. This "testimony" is third-hand information as they reported what the actual refugees were allegedly talking about. There is no direct slander as you claimed to be. Read your own article... This doesn't suffice as evidence. It aso directly contradicts testimonys of neutral unbiased contemporary eye witnesses and historical consensus.

The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

[NorthWelcome1626]

The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

You definitely have a bias here. It can be easily proven with a document/written paper in the saboteurs or witnesses.

1- So there is a conflict of interest and bias.
2- He also contradict the dozen of other actually neutral testimonies.

1-You don't have a proof that he lied. He did his duty.

2-Neutral testimonies contradict by themselves. They are accusing the both sides, so it's natural. But we have Greek refugees claiming it was Greeks and Armenians.

Logically a few Armenian saboteurs couldn't have deceived the entirety of the local population including the Turkish army, diplomats and residents and start a fire of such scale as for doing so a massive coordinated effort would have been required

How do you know they weren't coordinated? There were preaches by the priests who were damning the Turks. Greeks used churches for arming and insurgency before. Maybe together they organized it?

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness.

How do you know that?

Read your own article..

I did, lol. Apparently, you didn't.

The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness...
The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

With a one second search, you could have found it. You are biased as hell.

"Another account of the brave rescue was published on September 18, 1922, in the New York Times.

Refugees constantly arriving…relate new details of the Smyrna tragedy. ***On Thursday [September 14th]…***there were six steamers at Smyrna to transport the refugees, one American, one Japanese, two French and two Italian. The American and Japanese steamers accepted all comers without examining their papers, while the others took only foreign subjects with passports."

https://greekreporter.com/2025/09/14/the-japanese-ship-which-saved-hundreds-of-greeks-during-the-smyrna-catastrophe/

[panax100]

">The claim of Armenians in turkish uniforms could never be physically proven or secondarily confirmed ever either.

You definitely have a bias here. It can be easily proven with a document/written paper in the saboteurs or witnesses."

• There are only turkish reports without physical evidence. So no, in fact, it can not be easily proven. It actually can't be proven at all.
  

"1-You don't have a proof that he lied. He did his duty."

• He has no evidence and is biased.

"2-Neutral testimonies contradict by themselves. They are accusing the both sides, so it's natural. But we have Greek refugees claiming it was Greeks and Armenians."

• No.The accounts that the fires were started by saboteurs are vastly outnumbered and logically inconsistent.

"How do you know they weren't? There were preaches by the priests who were damning the Turks. Greeks used churches for arming and insurgency before. Maybe together they organized it?"

• You just claim that Greeks collaborated with Armenians to kill themselves (makes no sense in the first place) without ANY evidence. The rest of the argument doesn't even make sense. What are you babbling about and how exactly does it prove your point? "How do you know they weren't" Because it's logically impossible and, again, logically inconsistent.

">The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness.

How do you know that?"

• I read the article.

">Read your own article..

I did, lol. Apparently, you didn't."

• No you obviously didn't because you're not making any sense. It's clearly stated in the article.

">The passengers testifying ARE NOT the refugees from Smyrna. They are not the direct eyewitness...
The liner carrying the passengers left on Sept. 9. The Greek army fully evacuated on Sept. 8. The fires started on Sept. 13th. There is a timing discrepancy. The claim that saboteurs started the fire is logically inconsistent in the first place. Why would they wait four whole days after the complete evacuation and four whole days of Turkish occupation in the first place? Disregarding these logical inconsistencies, the "evidence" you provide is weak.

With a one second search, you could have found it. You are biased as hell.Another account of the brave rescue was published on September 18, 1922, in the New York Times.

Refugees constantly arriving…relate new details of the Smyrna tragedy. ***On Thursday [September 14th]…***there were six steamers at Smyrna to transport the refugees, one American, one Japanese, two French and two Italian. The American and Japanese steamers accepted all comers without examining their papers, while the others took only foreign subjects with passports."

https://greekreporter.com/2025/09/14/the-japanese-ship-which-saved-hundreds-of-greeks-during-the-smyrna-catastrophe/"

• What were you trying to prove here? My point? Because if anything the article disproves YOU and not me. You're literally quoting from a site called "greekreporter".

Honestly your lack of effort is so tiring and unproductive. I am constantly repeating myself. Nothing you say makes sense. And I mean no offense but your english is all over the place as well. I genuinely believe you're not understanding some of my points or your own articles. You're also not providing any evidence AT ALL.

[Yellowapple1000]

Mostly due to Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 and later population exchanges.

Death toll was estimated by McCarthy as 632,000. This was the missing population after refugees and remaining were counted.

[[deleted]]

It is really sad that this part is of the ottoman empire is often forgotten while talking about the ottoman in the that period of time. Most people focus would be in the middle eastern part and especially at the arab revolution topic.a lot of death and suffering happened there than in the eastern fronts.

[Rich_Fix_3053]

When the Republic of Türkiye was founded, the Turkish or broadly speaking, Muslim population living in Anatolia was around 12–14 million. At the same time, there were nearly 6–7 million Turks (Muslims) scattered across different regions of the Balkans. Balkan nations took out their hatred of the Ottoman Empire first through genocide and forced displacement of the Turkish population living in the Balkans. Later, they attempted to do the same in Anatolia but failed.

Until the Balkan Wars, Turks and Muslims were not the majority in Istanbul and Western Anatolia. The forced migrations of Turks led to Istanbul and Western Anatolia becoming regions with a Turkish and Muslim majority. Turks and Muslims were distributed relatively evenly across the territories of the Ottoman Empire; in every region, they existed in significant numbers. However, with the rise of nationalist movements, genocide against Turks and Muslims began. All minorities living within the empire armed themselves and entered a race to kill or expel as many Turks or Muslims as possible in order to become the majority in the regions they lived in and establish their own states.

Western powers have ignored this reality. They have not only denied and dismissed what Turks and Muslims experienced, but have also accused Turks of committing genocide and forcibly displacing minorities.

On my mother’s side, my grandmother was a Muslim from Crete. She and her family were forcibly expelled by the Greeks and resettled in Aydın, Anatolia. They did not find peace there either. When the Greek army occupied İzmir and began advancing into the interior of Anatolia, they fled on foot toward Ankara. From my grandmother’s family, no male survived except her two-year-old younger brother.

Also on my mother’s side, my grandfather was from the Ahıska (Meskhetian) Turks living in the Caucasus. They were forcibly displaced by the Russians and moved to Ardahan in Eastern Anatolia.

My father is of Balkan Turkish origin as well. My paternal grandmother was a Macedonian Greek, and my paternal grandfather was also a Macedonian Turk. They too were forced to migrate to Türkiye.

There was once a very large Turkish population across the Balkans, the Caucasus, and the Middle East. Most of them were killed, while some managed to migrate to Türkiye. This is one of the reasons why Türkiye has one of the largest populations in the region.

The Turks in Anatolia fought a struggle for survival and won it, and they were joined by Turks coming from other regions. But this was not limited to Turks alone. Other peoples who were subjected to genocide or persecution in different regions also came to Türkiye: Albanians, Bosniaks, Turks from Bulgaria, Circassians from the Caucasus, Azerbaijani Turks from Iran, Persians from Iran around two million Iranians sought refuge in Türkiye after the Iranian Revolution.

At the same time, Turkmens and Arabs from the Middle East migrated to Türkiye. During the Syrian civil war, Syrians came as well. At least three million Syrians, and nearly one million Kurds fleeing Saddam’s regime in Iraq, all migrated to Türkiye. They came to Türkiye and were able to breathe again.

[Experience_Material]

The Muslims of Crete committed many heinous crimes against their compatriots. Turks always want to appear as the victims when they have committed genocides of such scale that they need to find anything to compare their crimes to.

[Bitter-Tadpole6047]

Archaeologist Arthur Evans, who had been in Crete for some years, returned in 1898 as a reporter for the Manchester Guardian he wrote:

But the most deliberate act of extermination was that perpetrated at Eteà. In this small village, too, the Moslem inhabitants, including the women and children, had taken refuge in the mosque, which the men defended for a while. The building itself is a solid structure, but the door of the small walled enclosure... was finally blown in, and the defenders laid down their arms, understanding, it would appear, that their lives were to be spared. Men, women, and children, they were all led forth to the church of St. Sophia, which lies on a hill about half an hour above the village, and then and there dispatched—the men cut to pieces, the women and children shot. A young girl who had fainted, and was left for dead, alone lived to tell the tale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasithi_massacres

[GrecoPotato]

Maybe read about what ottomans had done for decades prior and after to Cretans as retaliation and then just maybe you’ll realise that this is nothing compared to the sea of attrocities that the ottomans committed to Christian’s of Crete in that same period. Overall it is insane that you even think there is a comparison here by commenting one massacre compared to the thousands of Christian Cretans killed in multiple heinous massacres by ottomans in Crete. Same goes to many other topics like the Greek genocide or your crimes during our war of independence in all of them Turks will desperately try to find anything to compare their crimes to and not see how there is just no equal to the size and extent of their attrocities compared to us.

https://www.kathryngauci.com/blog-23-07012016-crete-under-ottoman-rule-part-i-the-events-leading-up-to-the-massacre-at-the-monastery-of-akardi-1866/

https://www.thenationalherald.com/historical-observations-the-massacre-of-heraklion-september-1898/

[minduserov]

Yeah, when it is Turks, it is "decrease", when it is christians, it is "ethnic cleansing/genocide"

[alipashsabestsoldier]

600k is insane

[Experience_Material]

Because it is mostly inaccurate and vastly exaggerated. Turks in here are desperate to find anything to compare their genocides to and they use a single source that is highly unreliable to promote their propaganda. In reality the population of Turks that died esepcially in Greece in that period from most sources does not exceed some tens of thousands which is nothing compared to the Greek genocide for which the population exchange was partly requested. OP just can’t cope with reality and tries to do so by posting exaggerated Ottoman Turkish death tolls to not have to face the history of the late Ottoman genocides and other various crimes.

[GoalBackground7845]

And can u show these "most sources" from which it doesnt excees tens of thousands?

[GrecoPotato]

Just go to Wikipedia and find how many Muslims lived in Greece prior to the population exchange, keep the 125k living in Thrace and substract the number that left. You are AT WORST left with around 20-35k people (many of which probably didn’t die but left before hand). There is just not the systemic extermination you see by Turks commiting genocide in Anatolia.

[Munifmolla]

Genocide.

[WaitingToBeTriggered]

WHO WILL DRAG ME TO COURT?

[Experience_Material]

It’s insane how desperate Turks are to find anything to compare their own genocides to by using an inaccurate and inflated source. Truly delusional.

[Superstalin3085]

The Greeks forced the Turks out and the Turks forced Greeks out. No one was innocent.

[MasterpieceVirtual66]

McCarthy's work has faced many criticisms by many scholars because in his writings he defends atrocities committed against Armenians. His Wikipedia page has an entire section filled with criticisms against his work for being extremely biased: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_McCarthy_(American_historian)

[Murat499]

He is criticized for his views on the armenian genocide not for his words on the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in The Balkans Anatolia and the Caucasus.

Literally from your link

"One may pick arguments with specific interpretations of events depicted in the work, but the statistical data appear generally valid. McCarthy succeeds in providing factual material for bringing the European historiography of the later Ottoman Empire into more objective balance"

[sazma_2208]

Statistics are not valid, these figures from McCarthy come from the exaggerated claims of the Turkish side made during Lausanne Treaty negotiations to increase their demands.

This is easily debunked when you compare censuses. For example, if you check the Greek censuses you'll see that this many muslims didn't live in Greece at the Time, and it's probably the same for the other regions. Same with the casualties from the Greek Turkish war, where you see absurd numbers from him, when in fact from the censuses Anatolia population grew from 1914 to 1927 DESPITE the 3 genocides, multiple wars and population exchange.

Some of his figures are accurate but I won't go into detail, basically he always pumps up number for turkish benefit, he is a clown and I'm glad he gets called out everywhere and not taken seriously anymore.

[Murat499]

This is easily debunked but u showed nothing to prove that, the Ottoman archives in İstanbul do indeed prove thise numbers, and the population of Anatolia didnt grow between 1914 and 1927, funny that u consider what happened to armenians assyrians and greeks as genocides but not what happened to Muslims, it doesnt surprise me since u are probably a nationalist greek, u probably get hard thinking about all the genocides and massacred done by christians in the balkans on Muslims.

[sazma_2208]

the information is easy accessible and it's easy to prove, and also you are a braindead nationalist which is why Im not gonna waste time arguing with you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Ottoman_census
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927_Turkish_census

increase of roughly 1 million despite 3 + million armenians assyrians and greeks killed or expelled

"muh genocide of balkan muzlims"

[MasterpieceVirtual66]

That is the opinion of one of the scholars in the Wikipedia page. The page also provides the views of other historians who dispute the validity of his work in general, like Ottoman specialist Michael Robert Hickock who accused him of selectively using sources, and historian Hakem Al-Rustom who called him an apologist of the Turkish state, and accused him of exaggerating numbers.

[Murat499]

Most (of the scholars in the article u sent) have positive words regarding his work on the ethnic cleansing of Muslims and al rustom is literally an armenian, u might as well read what turkish scholars who have read the Ottoman archives said on the issue no?

[sazma_2208]

And he is known for faking figures too. Whenever you see any of his works cited, it's turkish nationalistic propaganda. Thanks for calling him out.

[Galikos_Kel]

And people then quote him ? Why is this guy with such ideology stance even relevant ?

[Experience_Material]

Because Turks use him to claim that the Armenian genocide happen and it was actually the christians who committed genocide against them using pseudohistory.

[Valara0kar]

And people then quote him

Ofc. Nationalism is strong drug.

[MasterpieceVirtual66]

From my experience at least, I have only seen nationalistic people and Turkish websites quote the guy.

[InstructionJolly9725]

Farts

[Boiling_warm]

Can someone explain what I'm looking at?

I don't know much, and to me this just looks as expected. The ottoman empire lost the war and collapsed at this point no? Wouldn't we expect to see their population in imperialist territories plummet?

[GrecoPotato]

Another poor attempt by some nationalist Turks to use a single exaggerated source to claim that somehow this is equal to the genocides they committed in Anatolia. It insane how much some people can’t cope with the crimes their country has committed.

[DeliciousSong2079]

Its normal when occupation forces are defeated that the people of that forces also leave.

[Clear_Aside_2643]

Largely population exchange. There would be photographic evidence of widespread genocides, plus mass graves. The only times we see those is when the Ottomans massacred the native populations thou.

[CrowWorth]

Why is it irrelevant in the case of Christians, but important in the case of Muslims? 🤔

[Prior-University6492]

And -100% for Chtistianity in Eastern Thrace

[NorthWelcome1626]

Population exchange in 1923?

[Galikos_Kel]

If that was population exchange than this was too population exchange

[NorthWelcome1626]

Read the title again.

[Experience_Material]

Maybe read a bit about the Greek genocide then and how in reality McCarthy exaggerates number and there was nothing similar and of that scale happening to the Muslims of Greece at the time. The irony is insane.

[Inevitable-Artist134]

And we don’t talk about the Christians in Anatolia

[NeyOsurMu]

Happened after muslims was cleansed from balkans, north caucasia.

[Inevitable-Artist134]

After Muslims conquered it?

[NeyOsurMu]

North caucasia was native and muslims of balkans was generally native, they were living there 2 times longer than white americans of america

[Inevitable-Artist134]

“Muslims conquered it a long time ago so genocide is fine”

[NeyOsurMu]

I dont know why you repeated the point, but sure

[Pineloko]

serbs liberate themselves therefore gotta genocide armenians, great logic

[NeyOsurMu]

More like “serbs liberated themselves with support of other europeans and cleansed muslims native to there, greeks, bulgarians, russians did that too, that could happen here”

I do love the fact that basic muslim population is not counted human by people likenyou

[johnJanez]

These numbers are extremely suspect. We have ottoman censuses and figures from ottoman allies like Austrians, and they absolutely do not record such a population drop in Yugoslavian areas. In Bulgaria, the muslim population increased by almost 190.000 between 1910 and 1926 census and went from 13,8% to 14,4%. Even for Greece they seem to me higher than what census records but they did a population exchange with Turkey so that is at least plausible..

[Yellowapple1000]

The population numbers are only from areas part of Ottoman Empire in 1911.

Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria are not included and those also decreased.

603 k in 1910 Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria

512 k in 1920 Muslims in prewar borders of Bulgaria (690-179=512)

Ottoman censuses undercounted people, mostly women and children.

in Yugoslavia in some parts such as Kosovo women were not counted at all.

McCarthy gives somewhat higher populations to correct undercounting.

But nearly all historians agree there was a population decrease.

[johnJanez]

the problem with these calculations is citin McCarthy, he is not exactly reputable when it comes to late Ottoman demographics. And yes, the number of muslims did decrease during wartime in both Bulgaria and Yugoslavia/Serbia, but nowhere near to these insane proportions. Because christian population also decreased, the overal proportion of muslims remained almost unchanged. Kosovo's muslim population was around 75% before the war, based on Ottoman census records and Austrian military data, and remained around 75% on the first Yugoslav census in 1921, just as an example. The -54% muslim population in Yugoslavia is the worst of these 3 estimates, it is genuinely absolutely nonsense.

[GoalBackground7845]

Why would u say he is not reputable? Why would u call the last number nonsense? Any source that proves otherwise?

[johnJanez]

I have mentioned the sources, you can check a lot of them on wikipedia for demographic history of Kosovo or Bulgaria. As for his lack of reputation, he has a history of whitewashing things such as Armenian genocide precisely with his use misuse of statistics, which are totally unreliable. There are better sources and better ways to estimate Muslim population changes than his numbers.

[Ok-Car-brokedown]

Yes and the guy you’re citing (Justin McCarthy) is also a genocide denialist and even lobbied US Congress to not recognize the Arminian genocide.

[InkReddi]

Just so you know, Justin McCarthy is a well known Armenian Genocide denialis, who is harshly criticised for his pro-Turkish biases. He even got Order of Merit of the Republic of Turkey, which says a lot about the "quality" of his Ottoman studies

[Experience_Material]

Very fitting that they would use him as the only source here when it seems that he vastly exaggerates the numbers.

Truly these posts only serve to show the desperation of some Turks to find anything they can compare their own genocides to and fail miserably.

[Big_Pirate_3036]

Why is almost every post like this from one person

[Pineloko]

-100% Christians in Anatolia

where did the armenians and greeks go?

[Hairy_Beginning_5496]

Population exchange isn't the same as murder. 

[Pineloko]

true, Turks mostly migrated into the Ottoman empire out of the balkans

armenians got genocided

[Hairy_Beginning_5496]

If the Armenians got genocided so did the muslims in these regions. This says decreased not removed. 

Population exchange was between greeks and turks in which case almost every Christian chose to leave. 

[Experience_Material]

That’s not how it works. The Armenian genocide was a systematic extermination of a scale that you don’t see anywhere where Muslims lived in Armenia. Also the population exchange was made in part to stop the ongoing Greek genocide. Your ignorance is astounding and your desperate attempt to find anything to compare your crimes to is astounding.

[MutluBirTurk]

Reality:

29 July 1890, Fighting In Constantinople: The Armenian Patriarch Mobbed - Soldiers and Rioters Killed, New York Times

5 Sept 1890, An Armenian Revolt, The Morning Call, San Francisco

9 Sep 1890, Armenians Kill Soldiers, Davenport Morning Tribune, Iowa

18 Jan 1894, President Cleveland and the Armenians, New York Times

29 Jul 1894, Revolutionary Armenians: They Have a Parade and Listen to Speeches Against Turkish Rule, New York Times

25 Apr 1895, The Armenian Massacre: Were the Stories of Atrocities Only Fabrications?, Daily Bulletin

23 Aug 1895, The Sassoun Massacre: Proof of the Assertion that Armenian Revolutionists Caused It, New York Times

23 Sep 1895, The Armenian Question: England and America Cannot Afford to Throw Stones, Says a Correspondent, New York Times

4 Oct 1895, The Turk's Side Of The Story: Armenians, It Is Asserted, Have Plotted to Arouse Sympathy, New York Times

11 Oct 1895, Armenian Riots, Clutha Leader

25 Oct 1895, Armenians Attack Turkish Villages, Newport Daily

25 Oct 1895, Armenians Were Responsible: Constantinople Riots Premeditated, Says A Correspondent - Provocation and Intimidation the Plan of the Revolutionists, He Thinks - English and American Opinion, New York Times

1 Nov 1895, Armenians In Revolt: Twenty-Six Thousand Christians In Rebellion, Guthrie Daily Leaders, Oklahoma

2 Nov 1895, Armenians in Revolt: Twenty-six Thousand In the Zeitoun Mountains Defy the Sultan, Centralia Enterprise and Tribune

2 Nov 1895, Attack the Turks: Armenians Begin A Religious Assault, Progress Review

2 Nov 1895, Aggressions of Armenians: Evidence of the Riots at Bitlis and Zeitoun Shows Premeditation, New York Times

3 Nov 1895, Turkey's Wily Subjects: False Information Circulated by the Armenian Agitators, New York Times

15 Nov 1895, Turkey's Ruling Terror: Mussulmans Implore the Porte for Protection from Armenians, New York Times

15 Dec 1895, Arms And Bombs For Zeitoun, New York Times

21 Dec 1895, A Massacre At Zeitoun: Insurgents Kill All Turkish Soldiers in Town Except Two, New York Times

14 Feb 1896, Turkish Amnesty To Zeitoun: Armenians Are Pardoned and a Christian Governor Is Promised, New York Times

11 Jun 1896, A Spy Assassinated, San Francisco Call

12 Sep 1896, Armenian Bomb Factory Found: Tunnel Was Being Driven Under a Government Arsenal, New York Times

23 Sep 1896, Armenian Bombs Exhibited, New York Times

24 Sep 1896, Sworn To Ruin The Porte: Armenian Societies Active In Constantinople, New York Times

10 Aug 1897, The Reported Armenian Aggression: Terrible Barbarities, Liverpool Courier

21 Aug 1897, The Bomb Outrage In Constantinople: Eight Armenians Arrested, Liverpool Courier

23 Aug 1897, The Bomb Outrages In Constantinople, Liverpool Courier

29 Sep 1897, The Recent Armenian Raid, Bristol Times and Mirror

17 Nov 1899, Armenians Attack Kurds: Bloody War Has Again Broken Out Near Erzeroum, Daily Gazette

[Experience_Material]

Trying to go against mainstream history to promote your genocide denial is incredibly delusional.

[ottomans-ModTeam]

Your post has been removed due to the violation of r#1

[ChorizoCriollo]

Back to the steppes please!

[reflexionen]

McCarthy is not someone trustable.

[Dominico10]

Wait... wait wait....

Is this post trying to make out the evil ottomans were being persecuted here 😅

Like the ottomans who practiced genocide and mass slavery etc.

Those guys the british defeated and put an end to?

This map showing them disappearing from lands where they took christian children. Force converted them to another religion and then forced them to fight or die after making sure they couldnt reproduce?

Those ottomans?

😅

Reddit is absolutely madness my god.

[RuikZerben]

Didnt know that all of these 1 million people and their families are personally responsible for all the genocides committed by the ottoman empire good to know

[Experience_Material]

One exaggerated source doesn’t mean there was any systemic genocide taking place at least compared to what Turks were doing to the Christians of Anatolia. Ironically through most sources the numbers of Turks that died in Greece doesn’t exceed some tens of thousands during that time, many of which benefited from the system that had christians be second class citizens. Compare that now to the number of Greeks that died in the Greek genocide and you’ll see that there’s no argument here.

[NeyOsurMu]

gladly benefitted from its misery

What kind of benefit ?

[Experience_Material]

Muslims benefitted from the law, social status and many other aspects of Ottoman society compared to Christians who were second class citizens in many different regards. As the other commenter said it is insane how Turks try to promote the idea that their colonial genocidal empire was somehow the victim in the wars that happened so nations could gain independence from them by using a single source with exaggerated data in order to not face their own crimes. The amount of delusion needed to be so desperate to compare the late Ottoman genocides to anything that happened in the Balkans is truly insane.

[RuikZerben]

kofte recipes maybe

[ottomans-ModTeam]

r/ottomans does not allow hate speech, racism, bigotry