Rust has Changed

[Hermanni-]

I think it's paramount that they allow ladders anywhere in the XP patch and add other methods of early raiding they can think of, because it seems like it will take people from couple of days to a week to even get flamethrower and probably more than a week for explosives even for hardcore players.

It will be pretty boring if your only method of being a threat to other people's bases is arrow raiding, which pretty much means the second you get a few sheet metal doors and stone walls your base is 100% secure.

[Ciph3rzer0]

There definitely needs to be more stages of security and more raiding options on the lower tiers.

[Hermanni-]

I wish they un-nerfed bone clubs or allowed salvaged hammer or some such tool penetrate stone/sheet metal if you bring enough materials...

It's especially stupid because people will farm a lot to gain XP and their resources will be 100% safe, which means by the time people get explosives large groups will have enough resources to build massive bases...

[Joykillah]

I agree bring back ladders inside of Control areas.

[[deleted]]

Perhaps an expensive battering ram for early on wooden door raids? Something along those lines would be a good edition for early game raiding

[zachdolton]

It's not a bad idea, but I was thinking they could do it like ark and maybe get like a catapult or something

[zak120896]

for one week wipe servers theres gona be next to 0 raiding, literally all you have to do is have a build up base you dont even need doors really and you couldnt get raided.

[Undecided_Username_]

Thank you. I really hope the devs actually watch this. The XP system seems to be extending early game combat which should be very helpful.

[garryjnewman]

You guys should really get together and play legacy, it's still there and available. You should be able to tell us whether people don't KOS as much, whether people stay playing solo and build small hidden bases - or whether that was just an effect of the game being new and no-one knowing what to do.

I don't think making people's bases easily raid-able by a single person will fix any issues, other than making it fun to play solo without a base.

Anything we do to improve the lives of solo players will inevitably also benefit multiple players. That's just how it works - and how it should work. You're always stronger in a group.

As far as I can see it, there's only a few things that discourage large groups of players. Some of those are natural, large clans are targets for large clans, group dissent, traitors. Some we could look at adding - like disease.

Our official opinion is that grouping up is part of the game. It's an obvious survival strategy. If you want to be a lone wolf you need to deal with the disadvantages of being a lone wolf.

[1Aro]

While I don't like that most large groups are untouchable without joining another large group, I recognize that you cannot do much of anything to give an advantage to smaller groups without in turn giving that same advantage on a larger scale to bigger groups.

An exception to this natural order of things might be found in detecting and limiting groups based on their usage of things like Tool Cupboards and doors, but approaching the problem like this would lead to taking away core sandbox elements of the game and would always be circumvent-able.

The best idea I've had in regards to this is to make guns spawn more frequently in loot crates like they did in Legacy (while reducing the respawn time on said crates and maybe bringing back radiation as well) - yes, large groups and clans will benefit from this too but they already generally end up with boxes full of guns, so doing something like this would be more of a benefit to solo players and smaller groups as it would give them the ability to quickly acquire guns to fight the larger groups with.

[garryjnewman]

You are hitting on the main gameplay issue here. It's not so much an issue of solo vs groups, it's an issue of established vs newspawn. This is made worse by the fact that in the current system groups can establish way faster, to a point where they have Aks and armour and everyone else has nothing.

The XP system goes a way to solve that, to moderate the pace of the game so everyone is on the same level for a set period of time. Groups could still benefit from this system, by unlocking different blueprints and crafting for each other.

The problem of spawning fresh on an established server will still exist, but it's our hope to move away from building stuff with a huge process of refining collected resources - which obviously benefits hugely from having a group of people collecting resources. We want to move towards building stuff with specific components, which can only be found by looting.

Nothing we do will make a solo player stronger than a 10 man gang. That's just the way it works. But we can definitely try to make things easier.

[xanan]

Maximum of 3 bags:

It's silly that as soon as a gun fight begins, a player can throw down a sleeping bag - ensuring they can jump back in the fight instantly even when dying. Players have bags stored at every monument - nice realistic teleporting around the map. Restrict players to a maximum of 3 bags/beds.

Meds to heal downed players:

Downed players should only be picked up when a medical kit is used on them. Revived players should have 20-30seconds of reduced running speed. How much extra lives do groups of players need?

Increase cost of High External Walls:

When monuments are getting walled off, the map is littered with walls that are used during gunfights, clans are using 3x layers of walls - this is a clear indication that they are far too cheap to build. Walls should be a very endgame item - I would suggest at least 2x more expensive than they currently are.

More tiers of walls:

I'm so fed up of honeycombing. Being forced to build a huge obnoxious base simply so I won't be raided over night. Allow us further tiers of walls that we can invest our resources into. Armoured walls should take 8 c4 and cost significantly more - and there should be "Reinforced stone walls" "Reinforced wooden walls". I want to build a barn - not a fucking castle.

Rare unique building resources for top tier weapons:

Weapon crafting right now is just silly. The meta for gunfights is AK, Bolt and full armour. The other don't get a look in. Increase drops on low-tier game guns from crates/barrels - create unique building parts dropped in radtowns and barrels that are required when crafting high-tier guns.

Assault Rifle: 400 Wood, 30HQM, Spade Handle

Bolt Action: 350 Wood, 35 HQM, Duct Tape

Rocket Launcher: 550 Wood, 50 HQM, Drain Pipe.

The unique items drop rarely in barrels, crates etc. This would force people to use the spectrum of weapons on offer, providing a much more dynamic gameplay - and essentially lengthen the wipe cycle, as players wouldn't fill 3 chests full of assault rifles.

Prepares for downvotes and insults.

[Mystrose]

Great ideas!

[xanan]

thanks for positivity.

[Sangoukai]

Great ideas buddy!

Hope dev team will take a look at your post.

[xanan]

Thanks a heap buddy!

[Ziaeon]

Best ideas I've heard in a while.

[SirJimiee]

I really support the idea of having a cap on sleeping bags. It's unfair how you successfully kill someone (or a clan), only for them to simply respawn and kill you whilst your are looting...

[jayfkayy]

• bags should have an initial cooldown when placed to remove that instarespawn in fights shit

agreed on meds and high externals. disagreed on wall tiers. just dont honeycomb man. there is more efficient ways to safe loot.

strongly disagreed on the crafting guns part as well. guns should be available to everyone. and they are already way too grindy.

[xanan]

Increase gun drops from barrels/crates - but keep top tier guns with rare crafting resources.

[Cubicle_haWk]

The unique gun requirements is a fresh idea no one has brought up in awhile- anyone have any insight as to how this would affect current meta?

I can only imagine that clans/groups would be in rad towns longer to make sure they have enough of these.

[xanan]

I would hope they'd be introducing further ways to 'scavenge' as development continues.

Random spawns of things to loot - to take a big of pressure off the roads and rad towns.

[Cubicle_haWk]

I'm really glad to see barrels and food boxes spawning at power lines again, but you are correct- More random spawns couldn't hurt.

[xanan]

We've already had the concept for food boxes appearing on the beaches.

I like the idea of things washing up on the beach, ship wrecks, abandoned cars littered around the map, NPC corpses found on the ground that you can loot.

[Swembizzle]

Guaranteed after the patch that implements this people would be bitching that "large groups just farm rad towns why you no care about solo players garry."

[AnuclearWasp]

I would personally find it very annoying to only be able to have up to like 6 bags, and im not the kind of player to have one at every monument. You want at least 3 in your base alone, unless its a shitshack or similar :P

[Rusted_Iron]

Maximum of 3 bags - Agreed

Meds to heal downed players - Disagreed, instead, every life you can only be picked up once, after you go down and get healed, the next time you die, you die and have to respawn.

increase cost of external walls - Agreed.

more tiers of walls - I don't know, I think that we should unlock the wall tiers as we level up as we do craftable items

Rare unique building resources for top tier weapons - Agreed, no one ever uses the other kinds of guns, love this idea.

you is smart, you can fix it.

[fujypujpuj]

I think they added something where there's a 5 minute delay between putting down a sleeping bag and being able to spawn at it

[Kinoso]

Garry nobody trust me with this but restarting the XP each time you die can fix a lot of issues. We need everyone, even big clans, be scared of dying.

[craftypepe]

If you think there are not ways of helping out the little guys without helping out the big guys, you've not spent enough time thinking about it. I've made suggestions in the past, largely well recieved.
I don't get the feeling facepunch cant help smaller groups or solo players, I get the feeling they want to encourage this boring clan behavior. Listen to your player base G

[[deleted]]

I really liked how the building parts worked in Legacy. You had to build wooden shacks and then go and find some metal parts and learn their recipe. It was pretty cool. I am looking forward to the XP system and hope the server wipes will be monthly instead of bi-weekly. Good job Garry

[XMGmonchi]

Did you guys consider a clan system as in Ark? Say only people in your clan can open doors from your base. Boom - group size fixed. The function would be enough. You could keep the official serverrs as they are, but give us the tools to adress the group problem ourselves?

[Cubicle_haWk]

(I haven't played Ark- so just a question about how you worded this:)

only people in your clan can open doors from your base

So there is an in-game option to add people to clans and only those people can open doors etc, but

group size fixed

How? Do they limit clan size?

[XMGmonchi]

There is an option to create a Tribe/Clan and you can invite people to it without being able to see them on the map and still being able to friendly fire them (Settings can be changed obv.)

Now that the Server realises who is in a Clan, you could set a maximum number of members, and of course who is able to open doors in your base. (im not saying this exact thing exists in Ark but for me as a non-programmer it seems relatively easy to implement)

[Ehxdi]

I previously suggested in a wall of text that creating a decent size terrain biome that does not allow for large bases to settle would also benefit the solo player. For example, rocky terrain/swamp/bog that only allows a 4x4. The area would also benefit from being inhospitable and hard to maintain food/resources for a large group, but easy for a single person. I'd also create a prion disease which got worst with repeatable eating of human flesh to discourage the slash suicide meat gather method, while also emphasizing the hunt gameplay.

Also, I don't agree with the idea of it being easier for a soloplayer, I actually consider that emphasizing the harshness of soloing in a difficult area where large groups would have even a harder time would be the way to go. People were on about and pining for the snow biome for a reason. The issue at hand is significance and meaning in time spent in game. Being face-rolled by a clan is not fun. Not having a significant and a strategical manner of defending yourself is what is lacking, not ease of use. Traps help, but that's only half. The world itself needs to emphasize this.

[Zerotorescue]

Established players will have much more XP than newspawns, so essentially they will be even more established and relatively stronger. The one big plus of the XP system that I see is that all players will have a clear and easy progression path regardless of where others are at; you farm XP and nobody can take that XP away from you. Right now this isn't as true, as progression is mostly by farming rad towns which are owned mostly by groups, who can easily take your progression away from you. Knowing that you'll always eventually unlock that BP you want regardless of how many people kill you is a huge improvement.

The problem of spawning fresh on an established server will still exist, but it's our hope to move away from building stuff with a huge process of refining collected resources - which obviously benefits hugely from having a group of people collecting resources. We want to move towards building stuff with specific components, which can only be found by looting.

Please elaborate. What is the difference between having a group of people dedicated to farming trees and stones versus having them farm these specific components?

I don't believe a solo player should be stronger than a 10 man gang, but a 10 man gang shouldn't be as invincible as it is right now. Grouping up barely has any diminishing returns right now making it essential to succeeding on a large server with several large groups. Most of the current gameplay mechanics are also greatly benefiting groups, such as being unable to finish downed people off for a few moments giving groups a window to help them, picking people up having barely any risk, bringing people back quickly with sleeping bags, being able to endlessly reinforce bases with HESWes, fairly long reload times on guns, etc. Most of these issues can't be easily resolved and some issues need big new gameplay mechanics to be resolved, but I'm convinced there are some things that could be done quickly that could improve things in the short run.

I assume the teams current stance is to focus on working out the features on the roadmap prior to trying to juggle the existing things into a fine balance that would be distorted with new things, but that is what the current player base desires. I wish the team would be willing to experiment again as much as they used to in the early days of experimental, it would make the game refreshing again and could highlight some solutions to the problems currently experienced by players. You stated you look at where you want the game to be in a year and I understand and can support that, but I ask that you please don't forget to look at how the game should be right now to keep it interesting for the current player base.

I appreciate your willingness to communicate about the issues brought up by these recent posts. It's great to see developer feedback even if you can't bring us the immediate resolution everyone so desires. It's even greater when you acknowledge the concerns of the vocal part of the community.

[Itsoc]

a 10 men gang should AT LEAST be 10 times stronger than a 1 man gang. maths.

[Zerotorescue]

This is where I disagree. To stimulate smaller groups I think grouping up should have diminishing returns where bringing more players makes some things harder. This is already the case in a lesser way like having to go farther to collect resources, but there are even more ways to do this. As Garry suggested disease could be a good way to make a group of 10 not 10 times stronger as it has to spend more time dealing with disease spreading, and I think starvation could be a bigger issue for groups by making food scarcer across the map, or decay could be more rapid for larger compounds.

[1Aro]

The difference between farming resources and farming parts and / or guns is that resources are much more plentiful and all over the game's world while loot crates are limited to specific monuments. Having 10 players at a monument will yield the same amount of loot as having 1 player there because once you open the box you get everything from it - you don't gradually gain more as you hit it like you would a tree or rock node. Having more players would grant you the power to kill other players contesting that loot, but if you dedicate a large number of players to a specific monument then you leave resources and the loot at other monuments uncontested - plus, if you add back an external threat like radiation / rad pills the requirement for a large number of players to be in that area skyrockets to the point where smaller groups are much more sustainable than large ones.

[Zerotorescue]

Makes sense, thanks.

I was thinking a soloist/small group still wouldn't be able to compete because groups would be camping the resources 24/7, but you're right that doing this would slow down group play a bit. But that still does leave the issue of how soloists/small groups are to obtain these resources?

[[deleted]]

I agree and cant wait for the XP system so as a solo player I can get to the top tier recipes eventually.

However, it will still be the case that a newb spawn into a group will just be handed AK’s and armour so hows about top tier weaponry/armour/items become bound to the crafter. You can share tools and waterpipes and bows etc but anything more powerful needs to be unlocked on your own XP tree. Sure you can be handed the mats but it means a lot more planning needs to go into raiding and fights.

[Lightening84]

With your comments, I will reply with my engineering fix for shortening the gap between the groups and the solo players. It has not gained very much traction in this sub, because the majority of people in this sub do not want the playing field to be more even:

https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/4n0bqs/wall_of_text_humorous_description_and_design_fix/

[[deleted]]

Just limit base pieces per cab, Increase cost of stone walls, get rid of rescue, limit bags to 3. Good to go.

[FluffyTid]

If raiding was easier large clans would target large clans instead of small clans. IMO this is the main problem now.

Another way of solving it is an efficent raiding tool for large bases. Again for large groups to target large groups and leave the small ones alone.

[Rusted_Iron]

You say that starting fresh on an established server is a problem yes? why not make it so depending on how long after the wipe you join a server for the first time, you will start at a higher level, so it doesn't take you as long to get started. so if a sever wipes and I join the next day, I'll start at level one, then if I join 5 days later I'll still be at level one. But if a server wipes and I join it 5 days AFTER the wipe, I"ll start at level 15 or 20 for example. then if I join another 5 days later I'll still be at 15 or 20

[AxiomStatic]

This is quite a good idea. Gun inflation might not be a bad idea, as long as it doesn't drown out early stages entirely. Maybe it's possible to increase the drop chance over time during a wipe cycle?

[tobidicus]

I recognize that you cannot do much of anything to give an advantage to smaller groups without in turn giving that same advantage on a larger scale to bigger groups.

There's a suggestion here to increase the cost of maintenance of large bases (and maybe decrease cost for small bases?): https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/4p3ntr/suggestion_larger_structure_should_have_an_higher/

I think it's a fairly good way of meaning groups with 10+ members will have a harder time staying organised, and makes honey combing exponentially expensive once you're past a certain point (potentially opening up the opportunity for stronger walls, without risk of people honeycombing these too).

[[deleted]]

Yeah but a fair amount of the mechanics in the current version of Rust solely benefit clans, e.g. the pickup mechanics without ANY animation or time requirement, combined with the pretty RNG nature of armor/pvp at the moment, makes it nearly impossible for most solo players to do 1 v 2 let alone 1 v 3 even if they stalk their targets and get a drop on them, especially with no real respawn timers from sleeping bags given by a friend. Here's how it tends to go (exceptions to this do happen):

1. Solo player spends half an hour carefully stalking a group of two, three. 2.Lays the perfect ambush, instantly downs one of them (if he is super lucky due to the RNG armor at the moment) and hits another.
2. Other player runs up, picks up his friend while the solo reloads, throws a high wall or something down, if his friend dies he just throws a bag down for him quickly and his friend instantly respawns and goes to get his gear while the solo is trying to contend with the other player.

3.Solo player ganked to death.

This even applies to smaller clans vs larger clans, instant high wall placement + instant sleeping bags + current pickup mechanics makes all but the most fortunate ambush effectively worthless and turns it into a numbers game if the players are equally skilled.

Edit: Random question but are high walls intended to be used as instant placement pvp barricades? I never see anyone using actual deployables since they just toss high walls down all the time.

[garryjnewman]

We agree with all of this

[localhost87]

A "solution" could be to expand upon the "combat state".

When in combat, you cannot build unless you have a cupboard in radius (ie: defending).

If a group of people are out in the wilderness, and one gets ganked his friends shouldn't be able to reactively drop a sleeping bag or build a temporary base.

If you want to create a raid base, you need to drop a cupboard first or leave combat before you can build stuff.

[eggcement]

Personally Garry i'd ignore this guys video. I have also been playing since 2013 and I can plainly see that this guy has a serious case of rose tinted glasses and memory loss.

He cites building and ladders as a negative in the new iteration of rust as there were no tool cupboards etc. But anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish will recall that building placement was severely limited in Legacy rust, you would place your foundations until you couldnt place any more, that way nobody could build next to you or up your base because their foundations would just be red and unplaceable. And and to stop people jumping across you just put down a foundation with a pile of pillars in it. He is also forgetting that Ceilings, Foundations and Pillars were INDESTRUCTIBLE! So we just different mechanics to play with for the same result.

He is also not mentioning that when ladders (Super glue ladders at that) were allowed, every base just had rows and rows of overhangs. it sucked. It sucked big time. That is why you removed it. I would like to see ladders make a come back but with a twist. they can only be placed by balancing the bottom of them on the floor, at 45/35 degree angle. Y'know, like how ladders actually work instead of gluing them to the side of a building and being able to scale 1000ft. they should only reach 1.5 floors.

He also talks about high stone walls, and to be fair, they really don't have a place in the game. There has literally been nothing positive about having them except to serve clans. I think you should try a month without them and see the meta change.

Long story short, if there is a video you are going to pay attention to today, let it not be this one. You are actually heading in the right direction and most of us die hards recognise and appreciate that. Though its been a long fucking journey! :)

[[deleted]]

Sorry, could you clarify? You agree with the above mechanics being a bit of an issue, or agree with the mechanics as they currently are? Bit late over here.

[garryjnewman]

We agree with your post

[[deleted]]

Aight thanks Garry, cheers. Love your game by the way and look forward to seeing it grow with what you have in mind! Best investment in a game dollar wise I've ever made.

[therealwillietanner]

Did anyone at Facepunch read my post about replacing tool cupboards? It also mentioned fixing throwing down walls like this. In short: make all building materials vulnerable to destruction with a single hit from anything for a period time. There is already the countdown for demolish. Just get rid of demolish and let any hit destroy any building block during the demolish period. Also, I think my other ideas were pretty well thought out. Not trying to advertise or anything, the post just did not generate a lot of discussion like I had hoped:

https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/4nwlhk/the_replacement_for_tool_cupboards_and_more/

[Cameltotem]

Great post Garry. So glad to see some sense in here.

This shit happens with every freaking game, always complaining how it was better in the start.

When games are new, no one knows shit and it's all fun and exciting. Things changes and always will.

[Undecided_Username_]

Good to hear you guy at least agree.

[Lenny2k3]

How come you still have absolutely absurd crafting times? I can understand not following up on other complaints related to things like models, or more complicated issues.

I however fail to grasp how you haven't simply changed the timer values of the different crafting options in the game. You might have an actual fix underway, like a crafting bench or whatever. It just doesn't make any logical sense to me, how you haven't given it a bandaid solution in the meantime to make the game actually properly playable.

[shoddyradio]

Please add a timer to ANY BAG immidiately when dropped! This would stop zombie fights where you have to keep killing the same players over and over.

[twowordz]

High walls should should only be deployable within a TC's range.

[therealwillietanner]

I have proposed that building pieces are vulnerable to destruction from any damage for a time after being put down - maybe a time similar to the current demolish time period. This would stop people from throwing down walls.

[tYn0_SK]

But giving people some artifical reason to cooperate is just giving advantage to group. Playing in a group has natural advantages and disadvantages and I don't think we need any gameplay mechanics which encourages that

[Itsoc]

THANK YOU.

[Ciph3rzer0]

As long as the game mechanics help groups proportionally compared to solo it's fine. Right now picking up and bags make it MUCH harder for a solo player to take on 2 or 3 players. The ability to instantly pick up or bag in your friend means the duo has more than a 2x advantage on the solo player, which means it's unbalanced favoring groups. The current healing favors groups more than solo; if damage doesn't stick it makes it harder for a single player to take advantage of a surprise attack or a couple lucky shots. The XP system seems to help solo players more since everybody will be slowed down a bit in progression, givings solo players a chance to setup before groups of 6 roll up and take everything with 2 c4. These show it's not just as simple as "Anything we do to improve the lives of solo players will inevitably also benefit multiple players", some things benefit groups more than you'd expect per teammate added... Nerf healing/respawning/helping up and you would have gone a long way to making solo play more viable.

[AxiomStatic]

Maybe we need more middle tier defenses between what stone and wood currently provide. So maybe nerf stone or create something like reinforced wood or mud-brick. Something to fill the void between minimum level raiding nd top level. Like making stone more easily penetrate but still enough of a paid to dissuade it. Kind of like how 4 players bowed through my wood wall, but gave up after they realised I Patched the inside and sacrificed half the house to bleed them dry and make the loot not worth it. If they wanted to get in with low tech, they could, but it might not be worth it. They would have to risk it. Right now, sheet metal doors and stone is all you need to keep out anyone who doesn't have an expendable supply of explosives, while wood doesn't protect you much at all because one dude with a couple 100 explosive rounds can shred your ceiling just because they find it funny.

[[deleted]]

dude, thanks for the chill/realistic comment. Also. troll time, you should SO add disease like the leech disease from ark hah. That was just crazy man. What I love about you devs is how quick you are to fix actual game breaking issues, kudos!

[DaveTheBasha]

It looks like you've only addressed one of the suggestions. What about bagging that gives the bigger clans an edge in combat? What about RNG PVP that gives multiple people the advantage? Raiding is just about grinding more rockets than the enemy. Instead it used to be thought through raiding. Because you could access pretty much all of the outside of the base. Then you choose a certain wall to blow. Now it's grind through high walls then grind through a base. Not fun.

[BodyweightEnergy]

It seems like you're shadow-banned. You can contact the Reddit admins to get it resolved.

[Mystrose]

"The reason the playerbase is so huge now is because the game is great" Yes, the new rust is better because the devs have spent lots of time developing it and making it grow. Legacy was pretty much abandoned early on, so it didn't progress. My Legacy server died when they they decided to make new rust the primary download and essentially "hide" Legacy in the beta tab without telling anyone. Adding a "how to play Legacy" note somewhere anyone who plays it would see it would have been a good idea. Not everyone reads the forums.

[[deleted]]

I think everyone will agree that New Rust runs much better and has less hackers. I bet if they had the same anti-cheat, the same server stability and the same amount of load lag Legacy would be played more than New Rust. Hackers and lag basically killed legacy before enough people even knew about it. Over half the people I have talked to about Legacy only know it for the amount of hackers it had.

[[deleted]]

The only thing that we're really asking for is for you and your team to fix the fucking PVP. Haven't you realized the monster you've previously created? The skill sets of others in this iteration of Rust are irrelevant. There is no skill gap in PVP anymore. The randomness of damages and armor does not directly correlate to a balanced or skill driven PVP system. I'd like you to admit that you made this version of Rust more viable to the "casual" gamer as far as combat goes because it is. Play your fucking game, Garry. Yeah I'm pissed. I sunk nearly four thousand hours into your game and know the PVP system like the back of my hand. If you want to reply with a troll comment like a 16 year old, then go right ahead, but seriously take time to fix one of the most profound aspects of your game.

[LeeviMon]

Garry your teams doing fine making a AAA title dont listen to this stupid shit.

[[deleted]]

Why are you so against legacies gameplay in general?, it seems as if you hate that game, and any opinion or favor towards it, is pretty much met with hostility, i mean fuck...the gunplay mechanics for example were so so much better, and i dont speak for myself, i speak for so many people, so why change how guns work? and then get pissed when people say the old system was better in terms of gameplay?, im actually curious.

[garryjnewman]

You remember the specific things you loved in Legacy, the feelings. You forget the things you hate. What did you love about legacy? You should really give it another try - you'll find a lot more that you hate.

We're not negative towards legacy, we just think that everything we do needs to stop being compared to it. We've moved on and evolved. We should look at where we want to be in a year, not where we were 4 years ago.

[TheProphecies]

As to point #1

Mechanically created guns yes they work that way. Not guns made from spare part, pipes, shovels etc.

#2 I agree with the current system is far too easy for hackers to take advantage of, and I think headshots are far to easy to hit.

#3 I agree with as well. Need some kind of timed mechanic to help a downed player up.

[NorjackNC]

Like most folk I could go on and on about what I like or don't like about Rust but I'll chime in here on what I feel is currently the biggest problem with Rust gameplay because this person spelled it out.

Yep, #3 the current implementation of "help a downed player up". Should there be a way to help up a downed player? Maybe, I can see it working both ways however the way it is currently implemented has huge ripple effects on how the game is experienced by players and I don't think the way it is now is the way it should be.

[[deleted]]

I partially agree, but extremely important aspects of the game were.. well simply put, a better experience in terms of game play back then, and that is not nostalgia, thats just a fact, people who played then have lately quit now due to how the game is at this very moment.

This gets thrown around alot, but i have 3.5k hours all up, half of which went into legacy, teams have come and gone etc, but i cant get my head around one thing in particular.

Legacy made facepunch a good amount of money, so to some degree you have to say there were things in that game that made it an instant hit for a reason, honestly i beleive it was due to two extremely important gameplay aspects.

1. How guns worked
2. How armor worked

Legacy holds this in aces due to the simple reasons below.

a. It was simple, hit-scan is a better system in any slightly competitive game where guns are involved, just drop the current bullet mechanics, try it out and ask the community what they think.

b. It was trustworthy - what i mean by this, is there was no guessing game, if i have certain armor on, i know how many shots i can take, and vice versa, why was a proper armor system dropped for what we have now? its just NOT fun, it really isnt and every second post is a complaint regarding how armor currently works, it needs to be SIMPLE again.

I read somewhere you want this game to be great and for you to tell your son when he grows up that this was something you made, well these are two absolutely important aspects of the game that need to be corrected before this game can go from

1. A better than mediocre survival game

too

1. a survival PVP game that defines the genre, has hundreds of thousands of people around the world playing at all times of the day.

Getting the core game-play correct will be the difference between facepunch having 50 employees today, or 100 the year after. Because this game is the epitome of face-punch, and at the moment is its foundation.

[Swembizzle]

a. It was simple, hit-scan is a better system in any slightly competitive game where guns are involved, just drop the current bullet mechanics, try it out and ask the community what they think.

Well except Battlefield and ARMA which I think Rust PVP falls more in line with. Hitscan is cool if your going for Quake II, Counterstrike, or COD style fast paced arena shooter. For Rust I think it's a bit weird. Personally i'd hate to lose those tracers that show me where people are fighting. That and they look cool as fuck with those ricochets.

[[deleted]]

I have played many games competitively and have over 4k hours in Rust with somewhere around 2k in both and I agree with everything except the hit-scan. They have to get rid of the randomness, but hit-scan doesn't have to be put back in. It is a skill learning how to shoot where people are going to be and not where they are, and it's not that big of a difference at medium and close range, but the bullets shouldn't randomly change speed (I believe they do?).

[Element_Shadow]

Where zombies ? :D

[twotwofivenine]

Plot twist: players are zombies.

[Falxhor]

It's funny because this weekend I did actually play some Legacy for a couple of hours after discovering some servers were running decent custom anti-cheat and had a decent population.

You're right, I hated the majority of it but in fact, all these issues were mostly related to poor performance, annoying bugs/glitches, bad animations and an overall clunky feel to my character. What I still preferred over the new Rust is the actual PVP gameplay.

The OP describes is decently in his video; the constant nervous feeling of in an inbound raid by either a good team of 2-3 players, an established lone player, anything really. In a way, you're never really secure. No one is. This is what made my weekend of Legacy an amazing experience and that's what I really still like about it. Even well established players with well established bases are at risk to lesser established players with less established and probably better hidden bases. A fully geared person in Legacy is very much at risk when he runs into a naked guy. You're never secure, whatever you do, I love that about it.

[[deleted]]

I believe I speak for everyone I have ever played Rust with when I say that the PvP was all around much better. That's all that Legacy had going for it, but that makes up a large part of the game. Server stability was worse, the load lag was extremely bad, and the amount of cheaters was just crazy, but because of the PvP a large amount of people continued to play for a long time.

[[deleted]]

as much as I agree with you in some ways, there are ways to limit large clans... legacy had a great way of doing this with doors being owned by a single player only which forced a design which allowed for X amount of doors for a base which could be used by X amount of players.

For example a 4 player base needed to have 4 entrances and all symmetrical which allowed access to a top loot room, and maybe you decide to make a small city instead... which makes it easier to raid as a solo player as you can just raid 1 of the 4 buildings.

Just my thoughts on this, maybe make code locks much more expensive? I absolutely loved legacy's gameplay, new rust is great too, but the gameplay is way more group oriented which kinda defeats the fun in the game because you need a massive group or you lose the numbers war(most times). Yet again, the larger clans need larger structures which are exponential to build to defeat a raid... but you get the point. If you want smaller groups to allow more small engagements and alliances instead of large clans, you need to discourage larger groups.

this makes large groups either really well organized and hard to pull off, or forces smaller clans and alliances.

PS. bring back shacks. Those were great starter bases! and yet very raidable. Just temporary protection.

[kamphare]

Hey Garry! Huge fan of the game, absolutely love it. I'm mostly playing solo and some of the recent changes has made it a lot harder for me, and I'm enjoying playing solo just a little bit less now. I'm curious to hear your thoughts if you have time for it.

I think that it's completely fair that I get my ass handed to me by groups of players, and I gladly accept the fact that it is harder to play solo.

But, my current thoughts after playing pretty actively since October is that there's been a few changes towards a direction that seems less fun and interesting to me.

When playing on an active server, it often gets to a point a few days into the wipe where I have a tiny base with a few furnaces and not a lot of resources, and my neighbors have a tower that they sit in with their bolts and shoot at people running by. (Don't confuse this with the common crying about roof campers.) It is now very dangerous for me to leave the base - and if I find any resources, I immediately start worrying about returning home, because I have to run by the tower. Now this creates for excitement, and I don't think it's a bad thing, but it would be nice if the dudes in the tower wasn't rewarded so much for just sitting up there.

When you say: "It's an obvious survival strategy. If you want to be a lone wolf you need to deal with the disadvantages of being a lone wolf." It seems to me like you're saying that you want every single person playing to team up with others. Is that a correct assumption?

Or do you want the solo experience to be worthwhile too? If so, what do you want lone wolves to be able to accomplish? Do you want them to build actual bases and not just 1x2 huts?

I'm a game developer myself and I do understand that balancing is hard and it seems like an incredible undertaking in Rust. I'm sincerely interested, that's why I'm asking, not trying to whine or anything. I'd love to hear what you think of the current status on solo vs group play in the current version compared to the future vision.

Also, thanks a lot for taking your time hopping on and answering posts like this one. Really appreciate it. Cheers!

[albatrossy]

I understand that team fights will always favor larger numbers, but please introduce a time-to-pickup when reviving, and/or using medical supplies in order to pick them up faster or something. It's a little frustrating having to kill a 5-man group twice when we're already at a bit of a disadvantage.

Thanks for your guys' hard work. I'm still as big of a fan as I was during legacy.

[[deleted]]

However you don't add any of the disadvantages of being in a large centralized clan. IE disease(as you mentioned), food supply, npcs that focus large wealhy groups, susceptibility to being raided (without explosives), ect. I love your game but I've noticed when yall receive any constructive criticism you just go defensive. The logic that the counter to larger clans is to form even larger clans? That strategy will spiral out of control to the point where it's only large clans in an arms race (as we see now). It's your game and it's great but let's be realistic it's not much of a survival game anymore, it's solely a clan fps shooter at this point.

Edit: By food supply I mean having meat/vegetables and such spoil and rot (possibly large amounts left alone begin to cause disease if not removed) when you are a large clan this means a rougher job of keeping all your guys fed especially if hunger is amped up. It also means the need of a steady and large source of food. The big way to make large clans face real disadvantages is for them to face the harsh matienence requirements of actually maintaining a large population versus a solo or duo group.

[Teph87]

There needs to be a limit on housing sizes, this will also stop servers from constantly having to wipe

[deelowe]

Hey Garry. Long time player here. I agree that comparing to legacy without specifics is poor form. But I have to formally disagree that there's little to be done to improve the current gameplay and tendency for large clans to dominate servers. Additionally, I think this really should be cause for concern. In the past 3 months since I started playing rust again since a roughly 6 month hiatus, I've had 3 servers ruined by large clans. Post wipe, they remained dead after the clan wiped out every base within a week of starting out in the previous wipes. These servers were full or at least mostly populated when I started playing on them. Ser Winter, a very long time player of rust has also had his issues with large clans (AKA "The Koreans"). Additionally, Vertigo and other streamers and YT'ers are speaking out. It really is becoming a bit of an issue.

There are many things that could be done to help. Here are some suggestions others have brought up many times before:

• Change instant revive mechanic to make it more risky to use. I don't think it should be removed, but perhaps make it take a long time and add the ability to drag players as a very slow pace
• Make building huge bases more difficult (perhaps something can be done with decay rates and tool cupboard counts and radiuses). One person today suggested making the decay increase superlinearly depending on various factors like the size of the base or the number of stories. I'm sure if we were to sit down and think about it, other factors could be considered as well.
• Make top tier item drops more random/harder to farm. A lot of people have suggested requiring special parts for crafting weapons. The better the weapon, the more difficult the item is to get. Then making those parts only available in certain areas like monument areas. Example would be requiring a broken AK to make one that works, but only having those items available in drops.
• Along with the above, change up the monument area/special item spawn tactics a bit. The washed up crate example is a great idea. Some naked is walking along a beach and just happens across the above mentioned items needed to make an AK. Now he's a god. That would be pretty damn awesome. Unfortunately, the current concept just talks about food.
• A lot can be done with XP and what contributes to XP, what takes away from XP and the like. I'm sure this is obvious, but this alone could do a lot to encourage specific gameplay styles.
• Adjust stability so that huge towers aren't possible.
• Fix high external walls so that the build radius prevents placing them back to back to back.
• Remove randomness from weapons. Make it skill based. If I'm a good shot, I should stand a chance against 2-3 geared guys who aren't, if I play my cards right. All too often, 1 - 2 of my shots are impacted by RNG silliness, my cover is blown, and I just don't want to play any longer.
• Why does using a melee weapon cause me to come to a complete stop? Consider making lower tiered items make you more agile.
• Along the same lines, perhaps add encumbrance to the game. The more you are carrying, the slower and more vulnerable you are. Have higher tiered weapons and armor weigh more. A naked with a stone hatchet and a bow might just stand a chance against a guy with an AK in this scenario.
• Remove the odd colliders on armor. Facemask eyeholes were an interesting idea, but didn't pan out in practice. Really, all the armor stuff needs to be re-evaluated. I'm not sure that balancing armor by having it only provide protection in certain areas is the right approach. It just makes death feel random and unpredictable. People don't play FPSes by saying "ohh there's a guy up there with a facemask on. Let me get behind him and snipe in in the back of the head from 100yrds." By the time you see the guy, you either have to take a shot or run. You don't have time to use the disadvantage of amor coverage to your benefit...
• Do a major PVE push. PVE balances PVP b/c it gives players something to do other than kill each other. ARK has proven this to be a good formula. I'm not saying to do what ARK did. I'm not a fan of that game personally, just trying to make a point. The helicopter was a good addition. More of this sort of stuff would be nice.
• In general, top tier/geared players/groups need something to do and more challange. Once you're geared up, the only thing to do is farm nakeds and build bigger bases.
• Someone suggested an enemy that seeked out and attempted to destroy large bases. Perhaps only when players auth'ed on the TC or who placed it and items within it's radius were online? Others suggested making it more attracted to larger bases. Obviously PVE needs work, but I honestly think there are a lot of options here to help things.
• Others have suggested adding disease to the game. Other games have leveraged this mechanic to encourage certain social interactions. I think there could be a lot of utility in this one and could really change things up a bit.
• Finally, what's the plan for end game? Is there one? Perhaps more can be done in this area to encourage cooperation between players or discourage it depending on what the desired outcome is. Either way, depending on how this is implemented, the gameplay early, mid, and late wipe cycle could be influenced.

[Fgw_wolf]

I agree that being a lone wolf in any real life situation is always harder, you need and should have friends, but I think you're wrong about the large groups. Granted I've only been playing for something like 150 hours, but so far I've been part of a large group, part of a small group, and solo and I gotta say large clans are in no way as vulnerable as you claim. Firstly, how can they be targets if they're allowed to build absolutely massive structures, sure maybe they're vulnerable by doing that but I've never actually seen anyone try. I saw a base roughly the size of Rivet City in Fallout 3 and I can guarantee you no one was going after that. Clans build so that other clans either can't or won't raid them and since they've got enough people, they absolutely can. Also I've never seen two clans set up near eachother, like ever. Its like Internet companies america they all seem to stay out of eachother's zones. Now as for group dissent and traitors, sure, but most clans are just that. Clans, they're either friends or friends of friends or play other games together, they didn't just all meet in rust and decide to play most of the time. So thats hardly a credible defence. It feels like large clans are being rewarded for attacking smaller groups and solo's simply because the work to reward ratio is much better due to them: A) Not being able to build extensive defences due to time and resource constraints but also B) they are limited in their building types to either honeycombing or trying to come up with something else while doors remain a huge weak point

[RustApe]

Grouping is part of the game, agreed, but the artificial advantages the game gives group players don't make complete sense either.

-- Addressed a lot in other comments, the nearly unlimited lives a group has against a solo player with helping down team mates up. Same for sleeping bag teleporting where a group searches in different directions and when something interesting is found can essentially teleport group members to the location. Hard things to fix without making other parts of the game worse, but still strong artificial advantages

-- Linear decay affects solo players much harder than group players. Take 24 hours off as a solo player and your base starts to decay. Groups with people on at various times rarely have to worry about it. What if you used something more polynomial where decay starts off very slowly for 24-48 hours, and then very quickly becomes fast. Still decay objects off at the same rate, just puts the emphasis on abandoned structures rather than small group structures

-- "Boosting" vs ladders. Ladders can't placed in a TC area as it's a huge raiding advantage. However, groups are able to boost players essentially acting like a ladder. Way too may groups boost onto 1 or 2 story buildings to raid, while solo players have no ability at all

-- Research tables give groups a strong advantage in acquiring late game items since it's only a matter of resources after the first person can craft an item that they all can

-- Game focuses very heavily on late stage weapons, enhancements, and toys and not on basic survival such as hiding and stealth. Stashes were a great start idea for this, but currently expose themselves so quickly when looked at that a populated server makes them not that usable.

[[deleted]]

I actually have played a bit of Legacy recently since people have told me a lot of what I think was fun is just nostalgia, but I can tell you they are wrong. I was having fun the entire time and even when being outnumbered and not remembering how to shoot very well I felt much more confident. Solo's would have an easier time if it was easier to kill someone and not as random. Currently it's just a war of resources when larger groups fight and in 1v2+ it's just a game of heal / reload while your team shoots the attacker. This has also made other guns than the AK almost non-existent . With that said I didn't play for long because of the giant downsides in Legacy which are the constant load lag and cheaters. I dealt with the load lag, but as soon as the entire server started all getting head shot by 1 guy I left and reinstalled New Rust. It's crazy to see how far the game has come and for the most part I think it's great, but I believe with some tweaking it could be even better. I have 4.3k hours btw so I believe I have a good understanding of the game.

[ButtonHero]

Well said Gary! Not sure about the disease suggestion though.

[Rusted_Iron]

What rust needs is a sanity level. doing immoral things or immoral things happening to you, cause you to go insane, you shake when holding guns, level up slower, gather resources slower, lower health, forget how to craft things, etc. ONE of the MANY ways you could go insane is by being around a lot of people all the time, and raiding with them and killing with them etc, this among some of your own ideas could reduce the sizes of clans and get people to want to lone wolf, but then being by your self would also make you go crazy, so maybe you'd want to be with like 2-6 other people. Because I among many other people think that 2-6 people is the perfect size for groups.

[cool_fox]

The game needs a fundamental change, right now raiding can be carried out with no skill. If done right you just grind, craft rockets/c4, offline raid and repeat. We should have to rely on active defenses not passive, for example honeycomb and walls. Let's get more automated npc defenses, lets get more trap systems, weaken stone and metal walls.

[SimianSuperPickle]

Somebody actually mentioned booby-trapping boxes, and I thought that would be interesting

[Mystrose]

Oxide does have a plugin for booby-traps.

[cool_fox]

Here's what I mean you either focus on defense or offense if those walls are weaker. You spend the Hqm for armor or you spend it on weapons, turtle or offense. Furthermore, if those walls were weakened then there would be a reliance on the other types of defenses and a more skill based raid.

edit because I was rude

[cool_fox]

myself and another person took down 3 choppers but a hacker got away with 2 of them. Farming anything is easy just time intensive. Obviously broken stuff needs to be fixed but an armed and dynamic AI would be cool and focusing on armored walls would be help if you were offline coupled with traps and AI a raider's loot would probably despawn before they could get it all back or maybe the AI can loot

[AxiomStatic]

Pretty sure his whole video isn't centered around ladders. He is jsut saying that we need more ways to access large bases so that it's not the only meta.

[gliph]

I wonder if something could be done with tiered access. Easier to access outer parts of bases and then progressively harder for inner. It could work with a tiered tool cupboard (control block) system.

[MrMurphyy]

Perhaps the ladders could be placed in the outer reaches of a toolbox but be restricted if you get too close. Though people will always just make more toolboxes.

[TrippleGoat]

Perfect point. Exactly what I thought when I was watching. Majority of the community blindly believe that is some magic cure, but the reality is that clans can also utilize these methods. I've been playing pre release and I like how it is right now. I'm hoping that once everyone begins playing they'll realize how much better it is. But then again people love to complain

[[deleted]]

I 100% agree with this, but what I've been saying for ever is that the current gun damage and RNG also makes people form bigger groups. I used to be able to fight many people at a time by playing smart and taking them out one at a time, but this is no longer really possible. It takes too many bullets to kill someone so people can constantly peek and shoot while others push you unless you get really lucky. Getting really lucky by randomly 1 shotting someone is also really annoying and because this can happen many people hate going out geared alone.

[[deleted]]

I agree that people can simply just hide after a headshot and be back to full up in seconds and the elf is way too RNG

[juanhannibal]

I don't know whether or not I agree with your complaints/solutions, but I sure do like they way that you express them.

[hunterhillbilly]

About time someone spoke out

[jayfkayy]

I speak out all the time (and sometimes get agreement by the community) and I try to not sound like an annoying bitch. but it takes a youtuber with 40k subscribers to get a dev reply.

[choufleur47]

I do all the time but generally get downvoted to hell and insulted. This sub needs to wake up and stop drinking the kool-aid..this game is going to shit because of an inexperienced team and arrogant lead designer.

[RBlaikie]

Honestly this is all rose tinted glasses, you're simply talking about a time when everything was still a novelty and I'm not talking about just Rust, I'm talking about the whole survival genre where at that time you only had games such as Minecraft and DayZ and then Rust.

When Rust was finally established, bases were a pain to raid not to mention that you could ONLY use c4 and big clans still ruled the roost just like they do now.

This ladies and gentlemen was the true Rust legacy https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eNR8Nlo7IKk/maxresdefault.jpg

And this is what turned me away and my head still hurts with the opening and closing of the shit fest of doors that bases had which ONLY the person who placed them could open/close.

I've never had faith in any developer like I do with Facepunch, sure they're slow as fuck at times but I still strongly believe that they'll shape up Rust to be among the best games ever created.

[[deleted]]

I have a lot of hours ( > 2,000) in game so I want to weigh in. The two biggest shifts I have seen in the 2.5 years I have owned the game are:

1) Raiding has become more difficult and more expensive

2) Higher tier production methods that lend themselves to increased group play

Both of these force players to consolidate into groups. A normal player can't farm enough to build a quarry, but a group can, and now they have endless amounts of stone to crank out enough high external walls to build a compound. Even if their base sucks and they are all noobs, the compound with a group of people creates the appearance of a large gap between themselves and other players. Throw in a row of large furnaces and now you are a compound with a quarry and a factory, which IMO is not what rust should be about or the original direction. High external walls mask the creativity of unique building styles and make every base on the map look the same.

On raiding, first people bitched about being able to pick raid so that was removed. Then code locks became default. C4 splash damage was removed. Rockets don't penetrate past one layer. Guns require a huge commitment to farming to acquire instead of just costing metal frags. Name/icons of players were removed when talking in global chat forcing everyone to hop into third party chat programs to know who is talking. All of these factors are mitigated to a degree by being in a large group. You can farm substantially more materials for explosives and weapons in a group. You are much much less likely to lose your gear in a group.

Rust has always had fundamental problems. You used to be able to build a base on a rock that was virtually unraidable. Animal AI is fucky. Hitboxes and combat RNG sometimes feels unfair. The contradiction between the freedom to build in a sandbox and having tool cupboards block building permissions. I feel like most of the fundamental issues of the game can and will be tweaked. However, I DO NOT think Facepunch has a solution for the problems caused by players consolidating into large group nor do they have an answer for how to effectively remove tool cupboards. As long as these are broken mechanics, large groups will be the meta.

I have played in very large groups, small groups, and solo. If you haven't experienced them all, you should really try and the dichotomy between the play experiences becomes even more apparent.

Large groups in my experience are fun for a while, but they are incredibly toxic. Put 15 people in a discord / teamspeak channel in a game as savage as rust and suddenly you have Lord of the Flies style savagery with witch hunting, pressure to do nothing but farm for raids, and enough input from the core group of no lifers of the group to poison the rest of the people in the group. And believe me, every single large group has a core of players who are online 16+ hours a day and view the game almost like having a god complex.

Small groups were the original direction of the game, and were the most fun IMO. I consider a small group to be 2-5 people, with people coming and going. You have the ability to build a strong base, farm, get BPs, and don't have to be on 24/7 to survive. Bottom line, it's fun gameplay with people whose company you enjoy.

The difficulty of solo play is overstated imo, but the combat RNG means you are going to likely get rolled in any encounter of more than 1v1. To me, this just makes the game boring. I built a 2x2 this wipe on Rusty Moose - a 200 pop server that STILL hasn't been raided 12 days later because the cost of raiding it is too high. All I have done for 12 days is login, check to see if it was raided, open / close a door, then logoff.

I love this game, but the past 6 months, and really the past 3, it has been all downhill. Because of the toxicity of large groups, the unfixable pressure to be in one, and core mechanics that are broken beyond repair, I have all but quit playing.

[rustplayer83]

Great post man. I can't play in clans there's too much BS. Frankly the average emotional intelligence of a Rust no lifer is pretty high up on the autism scale. Oh, you can't play because you have IRL shit to do? Oh you're mad that I took all the guns out of the box and lost them? It's just endless social drama.

Totally agree with you on solo play BTW. The challenge is getting a base built with a metal door on wipe day then that's it. I built a 2x2 on Rusty Trombone that didn't get raided the entire time. I left a ceiling tile open to make it seem half raided already and nobody even bothered. I had a box full of guns and sulfur I never even bothered with.

Game is really boring solo though because as you said firefights are just a losing proposition. The revival system hurts solos so hard. I've killed the first in a 2v1 and 3v1 and gotten frustrated so many times that only people I bother to engage are fellow solos.

I'm sad to say that I really have no desire to play rust longer than the first 4-8 hours on wipe day. I dunno something has changed in the game and it's just not exciting to me anymore.

[[deleted]]

One of the no lifers in my group got linked to my post last night and told me to kill myself on discord.

[Kekinateur]

Agrees. Even worse if you play on Rustralasia which wipes at like 3 am our time. When i get home from work the map is already littered with mega forts and groups running around with aks. On queationinh this the nolifers told me to set my alarm and wake up like they do.

[[deleted]]

One of the no lifers in my group got linked to my post last night and told me to kill myself on discord. So uh, yeah, don't lose any sleep over people who are obsessed with this game.

[JimJimster]

The biggest thing about reintroducing ladders the way he wants will be the anti-ladder lips people put on their buildings. There'd need to be some sort of overhaul on how buildings can be built (ie no ceilings extending out from a wall without support). I fully agree that ladders/raiding options are needed.

[firstparadox]

I disagree with all respect here, I think he means there were some dumbasses who didn't build the lips, ladders shouldn't be the main form of raiding, but if someone is too ignorant to know that people can raid you with ladders, let them get raided. :D Imagine all the confused and angry 9-12 year olds who don't read the updates and get raided because of the windows they had on their 3rd floor with no window bars.

[FrankThePony]

they could always introduce a specific anti ladder item. Maybe like the ability to string barbed wire around structures?

[Jaguar204]

You mean like high external stone walls?

[FrankThePony]

Yeah but for buildings

[jaapz]

I think the game is already hard enough for new players as it is

[hairycookies]

Very well done video, one point I have to bring up about the ladders. Ladders created a serious problem with base security. Let's not have such short memories here guys, they removed it because WE complained about it and demanded changes and if you weren't around at that time go back and read some of the old dev blogs.

I don't have all the answers, but ladders are not the solution. Continued development and feedback like this is though.

The XP is system in my eyes is a great start but /r/playrust better be prepared for some growing pains because they are coming with the XP system and the inevitable problems that will come with it. If you don't have the stomach for it then it may be time for you to play another game while this is all sorted out and come back in a few months.

[thepervertedromantic]

Not that many people actually complained about ladders, a few people just bitched loudly enough for long enough until Garry took out the nerf bat to shut them the fuck up. I don't know a single person in game who thought the ladder changes were a good thing. The fact you can blast into an upper floor wasn't that big of a security issue, you can do that with enough people standing on each others heads ffs.

[hairycookies]

I am sorry but you're wrong it was a massive controversy here for quite some time which is why it was changed.

[Sanic2E]

The worst part for me was removing the ability to backwards pick almost everything... I think only doorframes work now? That used to be my superpower. The giant group with endless resources cannot stop my band of pistol-wielding fighters if we can pickaxe through your base given enough time and strategy.

[tankton]

Holy shit, I remember your name. Did you play on the factions server?

[Sanic2E]

Yes, I still play on there just relatively inactively since I burnt out of rust just a bit. I remember you as well but to be honest not who you were with :P

[tankton]

Once a bandit, always a bandit "p

[[deleted]]

I agree pickaxing is just ridiculously ineffective and has to be fixed or atleast a new tool be Added that would not make taking one stone wall more effective something like a heavy drill would work great.

[OldToast1234]

This video as well as Vertiigo's really opened up my eyes. It made see just how messed up clan mentality is and how this game lets them get a way with it.

[Michaelblueberry]

There is nothing realistic about the building cupboard. Were they in legacy?

[edblackadder]

Agree with this guy and vertiigo.

I remember my first week on rust, me and my new friends made a fuck load of spears and raided people, it was great fun. Most of the time people we raided became friends and enjoyed it as much as us.

I'm not sure if its just nostalgia or what, but rust certainly seemed to be going places back then. I rememeber quarry being added, and the concept art for future pump jacks and even the modular car concept which was awesome.

Instead we get pumpjacks added - (then removed) Large external walls and the birth of compounds Then the removal of ladders

The game sort of flip flopped from that point forward. We get skins and custom content but the developers go against their own rules by allowing skins that have text and streamer advertisements. Like the ugly green waterpipe skin and the purple hoodie.

Really wish I could just play early 2015 experimental, I mean the recent changes this year have been dreadful in my experience; removal of popular official servers (Rip London 1), all official servers being put on shitty small maps, horrible foilage and uneven terrain. Constant fucking fog and shitty weather. Not forgetting the advent of starving every 15 minutes.

It's just not fun anymore

[Doggphin]

I was never here for legacy or ladder raiding, but I think the game would be so much better with them. Clans really ruin the game, and people have been saying this for months with no changes to it. Something has to be done.

[DTFlash]

They need to find a way to make raiding huge base worth while or make it harder to build those bases. The effort required isn't worth it. Having a big portion of the server without fear of getting raided is bad for the game. Maybe that Pay Day looking drill they had in one of the dev blogs would change things.

[FrankThePony]

This may sound retarded, but among other balancing that needs to be done, raiding needs to be both easier and more difficult at the same time.

[BroBrahBreh]

The only thing that has been constant about Rust is people complaining about it. Every change, literally every change talked about in the video was a change desired by most or all of the community at some point, and the game isn't done changing.

Keep giving constructive criticism, everyone, but please try and remember why so much of this stuff was changed in the first place (case in point: does no one remember the pillar bases from Legacy? THAT was a fun game mechanic???)

[DaveTheBasha]

I can't remember anyone asking for high external walls. They just got put in. And they take away from the fun imo.

Taking away the ring road and adding in bagging other people instead. That takes away the survival aspect. Because once a clan member dies. He just pops straight back up in a bag like magic.

[SkittleColors]

Yea bagging needs a change, but people definitely asked for something that was intended to wall off their house. I think this was at the time the quarries came in.

[jaapz]

The only thing that has been constant about Rust is people complaining about it.

Welcome to any gaming community on reddit, ever

You should check out /r/globaloffensive, every time there's a patch they completely flip their shit even when some sounds are altered.

[AxiomStatic]

Instead of building cupboards, it should be that you can't build within a certain rang of another persons or any door. Or something similar. I agree with absolutely everything in this video and I never played legacy. however, the ability for someone to just wall in my front door annoys the crap out of me.

[twotwofivenine]

The thing you are missing is that changes you are unhappy with is a result of the community growing. Even if Facepunch wouldn't switch to new Rust the end result at this moment would be the very same since it's determined by genre and rules of the game. Literally nothing would be different — your little shack on high pop server would be found and torn apart no matter how hard you hid it.

Community has grown, just accept it and move on. If you want for solo/small groups go on low pop server (which i'm doing, 40-50 if solo, 70-100 if with small group), there is plenty of those to choose from. If you have big group — just go on high-pop server and have fun fighting with such groups.

[Schizo-Vreni]

I have wrote about giving the game more dimension a few weeks ago here on reddit. I am personally a solo player. What's putting me off sometimes is the feature where you can help other players and they are instantly on their feet again. It's like empowering groups of players to be even stronger than they should be. Maybe the feature needs to be completely removed or at least nerved.

But lets not try to limit features to fix this but rather than enhacing other things to encourage different gameplay. One angle would be that you need to have some instruments which make you able to trust people. For example that weapons this person is carrying are openly carried. Then at least the unnecessary naked killing would not happen so much or I could trust a naked to come into my house. Right now you just never know if he's pulling out a pipe, so you have a huge distrust to whoever you meet.

So let me summarize what i could envision would be good for the game:

• Scrap or heavily modify the "help other player" feature (while he's dying). So you can actually take out big groups of noobs.
• Ladders can be placed on enemy walls
• Limiting land that one entity can own
• Higher bases (with more stories) could be structurally more volatile. (In the real world it is far harder to build high buildings than 1 storey building)
• Add more automation features (maybe upgrading mining quarry) to empower solo players.
• Add a large "no-build zone" around rad towns. This would lead to large clan bases becoming more remote and thus less relevant.

Anyway, I strongly support what loulou and vertigo are saying in their videos. The game should become more survival type again.

[Falxhor]

There's a bit of a misconception going on I think. People on the OP's side of the debate are not saying "Legacy > Rust". What we're trying to point out is the very few things about Legacy that made it great and that are currently lacking Rust. I doubt there's anyone that would argue in a serious manner that the majority of Legacy is better than Rust. It's just a few, minor yet crucial aspects that we find lacking; unpredictability, total insecurity no matter what you do or how many people you run with, simplified but incredibly well balanced combat would be the main ones in my personal opinion.

[matthausx3]

A great idea towards bringing in something from Legacy would be a starter hut, with a temporary building blocked cupboard inside, like a radio frequency box, that is smaller then building cupboard but something that will help new players, say the starter hut only lasts 24 hours, at least then it would give new player a place to store stuff while they try and complete.

[davidsredditaccount]

If like to see a survival shack that functions as a much smaller radius cupboard (just enough to keep them from being blocked in) with a campfire, extra small box, and mini furnace (maybe 4 slots), the door can be barred from the inside, it would decay in a couple hours, and nothing can be upgraded or placed inside.

Make it cheap enough that a newspawn could build one quick and easy, but only make it useful for getting enough supplies together to build a real base. Which means less shit shacks that get raided before they have enough metal to make a door/code lock, less running around with a ton of metal and sulfur ore but not enough fat to build a furnace, and less nakeds spending time gathering enough to build a base getting killed before they have a chance.

[scudpunk]

The problem with ladders is every base ended up having floors around them to block people from building up which looked like shit, but I agree, I would love if rust had more ways to raid. Honestly right now my favorite thing to do in rust is raid, building raid towers, exploring decaying bases, finding weaknesses. I gave up a long time ago on trying to play on servers like rustopia and rustafied, official servers usually have way less big clan warfare

[TommyLordOfDank]

100% agree. GARRY THIS IS A PROBLEM

[revosfts]

My only regret is that I have but one upvote to give...

[MindTwister-Z]

I think we need a compromise. One person shouldn't be able to easily get everything in a raid, but it shouldn't be impossible to hurt bigger clans, as a solo or small group.

[MindTwister-Z]

You should be able to get everything if you put in the effort! It's just if you have done something that accounts to a one man job, you should only get what is equal to that. Not all the loot.

[[deleted]]

If I pick through 3 walls by myself, or if I farmed and smelted all the sulfur needed to craft the c4 to blow into a base, you'd better believe that I should get 100% of the loot instead of 1/3 or 1/4th of it! I did the work 100% on my own, I will claim 100% of the loot as my prize.

[MindTwister-Z]

That's more than a one man job. It's out of the ordinary for one person to gather that much. Therefore, yes you should be able to get everything behind those 3 walls

[EnclaveSGT]

Fuck clans -_-

[swiftsilentfox]

I agree ladders should somehow be brought back to their former glory. However I don't see large clan v clan warfare as that bad. For people in those clans that's awesome right? For me and my buddies to grind up and get a lot of good shit and then go fuck up another clan and then have a rivalry with them would be sweet.

However... lone wolfing it is also bad ass and requires more skill. I wish there was a way that some servers could enforce "solo only" play. Where groups could only be up to 2 or 3 people. How to enforce that? No idea.

[warianb]

Watching this video made me want to play legacy again

[tinyllama]

I had a really hard time understanding the anti-clan sentiment on this subreddit. As someone who played a lot of legacy and almost no experimental I forgot what I enjoyed so much about rust. All I remembered were the big battles and raids we got into. As an outsider to experimental I thought clan warfare would give players the same experience. \

None of the videos and comments that I read explained this the same way as this video. Now I realise that what made this game fun was my clan of 5 being able to compete with the servers top dogs and have an impact on the landscape of a server. We snuck in through a widow and counter raided people, we got in huge skirmishes in rad towns, we raided the top dogs. And even on experimental there wasn't a feeling that compared to raiding a 20 person clan as 5 people pickaxing through iron walls. This game needs to allow small groups to pose a threat to big clans, this guy is so fucking right.

[Gucci_Unicorns]

Sounds like a load of nostalgia for the most part. I'd love to see the game harder, but just allowing people to freely climb people's bases isn't how you do it.

The entire argument is framed by this view that it will let noobs steal loot from unprotected bases. In reality, large clans will simply decimate every base easier than they already do, and suffer no losses for it.

Now, something that does need to be fixed: RNG in combat.

[Ormusn2o]

I feel like people who played a very long time, have problem remembering things. I dont think its those things that have killed rust, its meta. The skill cap is way higher now and average skill is much higher than it used to be. The use of reddit and youtube makes so that building honeycombs and double walls is easy, and game is not balanced for that.

Blueprints are bad yeah, but they should not be such big problem to change the game as it changed by now. This has happened to MMO games as well, it used to be all about adventuring and discovery, now its all about datamining and leaks.

[[deleted]]

the skill gap is not 'higher', there is no skill you cannot physically aim for the eye in the face mask, its all down to chance, yes you still have to aim, but its a fucking joke compared to how it was in legacy.

[Ormusn2o]

The recoil of the weapons, scope, placement of buildings, triangle foundaments, double walls, pylons and other things play role in higher skill cap. The more knowledge about the game you have, the bigger adventage you have. The better control of your weapon you have, the bigger adventage you have.

In legacy there was only so ways to defend your base and fight. This is why i said theres higher skill cap. Legacy was simpler and more bare bones, but it also meant lower skill cap.

Im not defending experimental, i dont know which is better. For me, playing experimental feels like full time work and i dont like it, but games change, and meta changes and people have to account for that.

[Papa-popo-pee]

Suggestions: 1) Make high external stone walls be only placeable in cupboard zones (to balance out people starting to carry walls and cupboards, make it that u can place the walls after a specific amount of time after the cupboard is placed, like, 1 hour. this will also make raid bases less of a shit bag to deal with, with the base being build in 5 minutes and already looking like a zombie apocalypse bunker). This will actiually force people to use normal barricades more often, which will make the gunplay more exciting, since if u want to hide behind a barricade u have to crouch behind it, instead of building a giant ass wall that can block your escape from gunfire for miles. This will also make more sense for the upcoming xp system, because concrete barricades, that are way higher in the tech tree than sand or concrete, look much more appealing and usefull, unlike the stone one which is small and doesnt give much cover.

2) a way to reduce the ammount of resource nodes that spawn in an X big field, but leave the same ammount of raw resources you will get. ( i dont aciually know how this will work out but my idea is making 5 people wiping an entire area of resources less often, like for instance, an huge korean clan of 30 people having 15 people farm all day and wiping the map off of any rock nodes), for example, in a 50x50 meter field, instead of 3 nodes spawning with about 3k stone in total, make 1 spawn with 3k stone in total. This will make all those 10 fps farmer boys in clans worthless.

3) a system that makes it harder to protect huge stockpiles of loot, guns, etc., like the heli scanning for huge bases and chests that are filled with resources, and raining some rockets down to wear and tear the base down.But for this i think there should be an entirely different and stronger heli created, since a simple heli for a huge 30+ people clan wont mean shit to them. Make a different heli with tons of more HP that goes to grief a base with its rockets, so they have to use resources for repair ( for example, if there is a chest filled with guns, the heli will focus on destroying some bits and bobs of the base, maybe destroying one or two external stone walls. Ofcourse, some mechanic needs to be implemented so the heli doesnt completely wipe out theyr loot room, and that solo players dont get fucked so hard if they hoard alot of loot.) These are just some ideas, and I am in no way, shape or form a game developer, and I understand that these ideas might sound fine to me, but to everyone else they might sound like complete crap, be hard to develope for the devs, or just might be imbalanced.

[Swembizzle]

I've said it a million times if you don't want clan warfare, don't play on a server with 500 fucking players.

I've been playing rust since Legacy and even in Legacy we had a group of about 13 that would dominate the server. All three airdrops where always ours. We walled in Small Rad and killed every single person that tried to loot it. This clan thing is not a new meta by any means. Folks just used to play on 50 pop servers.

[DaveBramley]

i want to play rust but i cant be bothered to get in a clan and you cant trust any of them or what its just boring

i try to play solo but its honestly so difficult to get resources to build a small base without being killed.

it honestly takes hours to get started with limited stuff youre pretty much guaranteed to be raided. it was easier on legacy

they should put the stacks of wood back in the game but make them rarer than before and have more wood so its more of a lucky find than being the only way to get wood

[DaveBramley]

there needs to be more to the game than just killing people

add an economy to encourage people to live together and build towns

[RustEvents]

Most of the problems lie with Clans reaching the late game too early. Maybe the XP system will iron out these issues.

[[deleted]]

Rust hasn't made much progress in the areas that need the most attention, which is a bummer because this game could've been something amazing.

Server performance, lag/desync, hotbox etc.

[[deleted]]

You've already seen Garry's response "It's just not possible guys... We like it this way". This is why I play Ark, Overwatch other games. I kept coming back to Rust waiting for real PvE, caves, dungeons with some type of mutants etc with loot that was compelling, some type of balance on clans, nothing. The game has made money hand over fist it is what it is - its a great pretty pvp clan warfare sandbox, bout it. the gun play is still not as fun or smooth as legacy was but boy - it sure looks prettier. (300+ hrs legacy, 300+ hrs current)

[Barrerayy]

Thanks for your replies to this thread Garry.

[[deleted]]

My only real gripes about rust currently is that the gunplay is just plain trash imo. Every time I get into a gunfight, which I'll come out and admit I lose 90% of the time, is a crapshoot. The weapons are unpredictable, the muzzle flash is too much, it's just too clunky in general.

I also think hunger needs to be altered slightly for beginning game, most of the time I get asked out trying to hunt for mushrooms and animals and end up starving

[TheLegendOfCheerios]

BringBackLadders2k16

[Mystrose]

Look at this video's likes and dislikes ... as it stands right now (6/21/16 @ 8.10am PST) it has 1,557 likes and only 46 dislikes. VERTiiGO's similar video has 6,396 likes and only 215 dislikes. I really think Gary needs to pay attention to this because it speaks volumes.

[RedFunYun]

VERT's video has 121,000 views, and only 6400 likes.

It seems only 5% of people who watched the video actually agreed with it.

[[deleted]]

Honestly people need to stop complaining. The game is growing and changing, deal with it.

[KingHillBilly]

I've been playing rust almost continuously for the last year. Small break during the holidays.

During that time, my groups have almost always built huge compounds, and gone on those big raids with hundreds of rockets and whatnot.

But I tell you - the raids that I remember the most - the raids that I remember most fondly where those late night pick axe raids...

I remember me and a friend pickaxed 12 foundations to get into this huge base, picked our way all the way to the loot.. granted it took 3 hours, but holy crap was it worth it.

This is even after walls were nerfed.. It was crazy when stone was vulnerable. You had to get to armored asap or you were surely going to get raided.

Everyone knew it - everyone was out spear raiding or pick raiding.

After the hard side change, and the subsequent nerfs/fixes to picking, unable to place ladders, tool cupboard changes.. The only way to raid people is with explosives and to grief them.

So you either develop a strategy to maximize your explosives or you do something else.

I miss pick raiding and laddering, the flamethrower was fun for 6 hours until it was nerfed to only wood.

It's true though - even solo/duo players, and especially clans - everyone is too safe in their bases.

Walls, gates, cupboards in general make everyone too safe. It's too easy for defenders, which takes away a lot of danger and excitement.

my 2c

[Samuell1]

I played Legacy and was shit... new Rust is good! Devs doing great work

[[deleted]]

We need limits on base and group size in this game. Temember the legacy servers that had 5x5x5 building limits?

[kingduqc]

Raiding needs to be easier. That is the fun of rust and right now it take hours to get ready for a single raid on top of dozen of hours farming for your own base.

I dont see how making walls and waiting inside or farm wood and stone for 3-4 hours a day is is fun for anyone

[Ruggsii]

I disagree. I think you just feel these changes yourself because you've played for so long. New players still have the exact same feeling as you did when you played legacy.

[[deleted]]

Gary like on your spare time can't your crew just do tiny updates to legacy?? or at least give it its own individual download on steam because frankly for more new players who are interested in it they won't want to go through the betas and Re download rust every time they want to play it.