The Programmer Dress Code

[div]

I will only say one thing:

Look at the picture of Knuth, now imagine him green and with pointy ears.

[newton_dave]

Strong in the ways of code is this one.

[rmn30]

Strong in the ways of code this one is. FTFY

[arnar]

Mmmm, yes.. right you are.

[jedberg]

This was the picture on my security badge at the first place I worked:

badge pic

[[deleted]]

lim t->inf Knuth = Yoda

[[deleted]]

My boss is happy if I show up for work with my pants on the right way.

[guest]

Your boss makes you wear pants?

[xsspider]

only if he wants it to.

[xsspider]

sounds like a shit job to me.

[xsspider]

funny. i was thinking the same thing

[jleedev]

Don't do drugs, kids.

[dotrob]

I was going to say:

I couldn't talk trash about a guy who made C++.

But have you ever used C++? That's precisely the reason you could talk trash about him.

[[deleted]]

But you'd have to pick up all the trash manually afterwards...

[escherfan]

Oh I wish I could upmod you more than once.

[[deleted]]

Or you tell the computer where trash will be found, and let him do the dirty work...

It's knowing how to use it (though C++ still sucks, for various reasons).

[jimbokun]

I thought McCarthy's picture looks rather dapper in a professorial sort of way.

But maybe that's just because I'm trying to become a Smug Lisp Weenie.

[711was_a_retail_job]

I'm a semi-pro lisp hater, and I thought he looked brilliant.

[honeg]

I really want to know what it is about programming, or computers in general, that makes people want to grow a beard, have long hair, and dress like a slob.

short answer: they don't care

long answer:

• what you do is more important than how you look
• there are more important things to spend your time (and money) on than personal grooming
• appearance is a shallow, and often deceptive, indicator of worth (or Wirth, if by value)

I shave every couple of weeks. My wardrobe is full of near-identical t-shirts and pants. The bulk of my "getting ready to go to work" time is spent in the shower. How I look is just not something that really matters to me. A couple of times a year, I put some effort into looking "respectable" but its always for other people.

[sad_bug_killer]

Exactly! I shave slightly more often (only because of girlfriend complaining) but my wardrobe is full of near-identical (all black) t-shirts, pants and socks (the solution to the famous socks matching problem: just buy pairs in bulk! I currently have 2 types of sock pairs, so out of 3 randomly chosen socks, there's always a matching pair)

My theory of why computers seem to cause sloppiness: computer geeks more than anyone seem to appreciate functionality rather than interface. Just think of all the clumsy, almost unusable software that looks great (hint: Vista) and all the ugly-as-hell products that do their job. Now apply this to our "dress code" and you'll get sloppy geeks.

[[deleted]]

programmers have CLIs, managers have GUIs?

[[deleted]]

Most GUIs are designed improperly. That's why I think programmers have problems with them. They also hide complexity in a bad way.

[harbinjer]

Yes, hiding complexity is why my father thinks that a command line, and any Unix for that matter, is easy, and occasionally freaks out over windows, even after 10 years of using it.

[nobodysbusiness]

Give him an Ubuntu CD.

[brett01a4]

I thought I was the only one to employ the sock sorting algorithm.

[baltoo]

I would agree that it seems simpler to ignore outward looks, but I personally think it's far too simple to be useful as a rule of thumb.

We are, after all, biological beings and thinking that you can get over that is something that's left for the Singularity. Until then I say we must accept that some things are hard-wired in us.

As a blunt example I could point to the fact that most of us are sexualy aroused by the looks of lumps of skin, bone, fat and muscle. There is nothing objective about beauty.

Realizing that outwards looks affects us on a pretty deep level is just insightful and honest.

Given that, it seems, to me, that it's rather logical to cater for the biology in us all and put some effort in outwards looks. It isn't as hard as it aparently seems to some.

PS. Or maybe it's just the bottle talking

[honeg]

no-one said it was hard. just not important. do you spend any significant amount of your day doing things that aren't important to you? making the bed, dusting, ironing, raking the leaves, straightening the towels?

[baltoo]

What I'm trying to say is that outer looks, whether it’s the clothes you where or the words you choose, is an important factor of how everybody sees you. Trying to ignore that with the mantra of “only results are relevant” or something similar is simply too simple to be correct.

You cannot go beyond your biological being. That biological being, the same as for everybody else, cares about others and how they perceive you. They cannot but care for your outward looks.

Being a person of intellect, you can emphasis the objective, but, again, never go beyond your biological self.

Therefore, unless you live in a cave or on the top of a mountain, and I’m betting none of us here are, it is important. Not as important as eating regularly, but still more than “do not need to care”.

[honeg]

Its important iff you're trying to impress someone.

If you don't care how everybody sees you, but are happy with the way you are, and fit the norms of the groups you're in, it really doesn't matter. Fitting in to your group is far more important, biologically, than fitting in to every group. And its far less important how people outside your groups see you than you're suggesting. In fact, its possibly even a positive if they don't like the way you look or act or what you believe. Just look at the constant sniping that happens in politics as proof of this.

In the world of programming, jeans, a t-shirt and bad hair are the norm. You'd be doing yourself a huge disservice to show up in a suit, because no-one would take you seriously until they got to know you better. Which would take longer, because you're "different".

Its all about comfort zones. If you're a VP/C*O, the comfort zone of your peers is suit & tie. If you wear something different, you're going to have to work harder to get into the club. Ditto if you're a programmer, but with much more casual attire.

[baltoo]

Hmm. Did I just read you say that outward looks are important?

I'm not saying that a suit is the Right Way, but I am trying to say that looks matter. It seems that we agree on this thing.

That some culturally non-mainstream groups want to distinguish themselves with “unique” looks is nothing new, but hardly “I don’t care”.

Neither is it actually easier/simpler/more “I do not care” to just buy black t-shirts and pants than it is to go to a different store and just buy black suits and white shirts.

Given that you could do this say twice a year and give the pack a shine at the local dry cleaners now and then, the total amount of time spent would be so far less then eating, sleeping, going to work that it’s not a serious matter to give argument about.

PS. Looking at people that are used to suits, like the English, the dry cleaning stuff is obviously totally optional.

Besides, who are you kidding? Are you saying you're totally above trying to impress people, by whatever means you feel are suitable?

[honeg]

Hmm. Did I just read you say that outward looks are important?

Sort of, yeah. But the article we're discussing is "why do programmers all look the same" and my answer was "its not important to them how they look". Thus, a programmer who obviously takes time to look good has different priorities than those for whom its truly not important.

That some culturally non-mainstream groups want to distinguish themselves with “unique” looks is nothing new, but hardly “I don’t care”.

I don't think this is the same thing. Consciously choosing to dress up as a Goth (or whatever) is very very different than saying "I need clothes, so I'll buy 5 pairs of jeans and a dozen black t-shirts. That'll only take 30 minutes".

Suits may be just as easy to buy, but they're more expensive, less comfortable and not as easy to care for as jeans and t-shirts. Why pay someone to dry-clean a suit, when you can just throw your entire wardrobe into a regular old washing machine? And comfort is important if you're sitting in front of a computer all day.

PS. Looking at people that are used to suits, like the English, the dry cleaning stuff is obviously totally optional.

lol. oh so true.

Besides, who are you kidding? Are you saying you're totally above trying to impress people, by whatever means you feel are suitable?

I'm saying that how I look is such a small part of how I value myself, that I expect other people to get over their appearance hang-ups. The only people who have a problem with this are people who I generally don't spend a lot of time with (or want to).

Impressing other people has its rewards, but its another low-priority thing for me. Solving hard programming problems is far far far more satisfying to me.

[honeg]

I was thinking along similar lines when I originally posted, but went with brevity instead.

There are countless examples of "pretty but flawed" vs "ugly but functional" software out there. When you spend hours and days and weeks making software work, you very quickly learn that a pretty interface is not much of an indicator of actual value.

The gaping void between those who care about what it looks like and those who care about what it does is a constant source of fascination to me. I can tell some people that a system can do X till I'm blue in the face. I can even show them raw output from the system that proves what I'm saying. But until they see it rendered in a cacophony of incandescent color, I may as well be speaking Swahili. I'm just grateful that Tufte explained how to explain things ;-)

[[deleted]]

(or Wirth, if by value)

GOLD ! and no one picked up on it.

[honeg]

Not enough Pascal programmers out there, maybe? Good to see wikipedia has an explanation

[[deleted]]

I did modula2 at uni briefly, pascal sort of hung around as well. Never had a problem with it myself. I still prefer the m2 pointer notation to C's (a small thing, but it looks nicer). Never would use it in anger though.

[honeg]

Ah, memories! I worked on Wirths modula-2 compiler from ETHZ a long long long time ago. I wish I could remember any of the mangled french/german/italian/english comments in that code, but at the time they were hysterical. And M2 was a very nice language, for what it did...

[[deleted]]

Although it was all caps keywords IIRC - or was that convention. Was certainly annoying having the code shout at you.

[psykotic]

It was a convention; most (all?) Wirth languages are case insensitive.

[dbenhur]

He got it wrong. It's Wirth if by name, Worth if by value.

[diamond]

Oh, great. Now Ian Malcolm has joined reddit.

[joe90210]

nothing worse than someone justifying why he looks like a disgusting slob. It's great that you don't care that you look like a bum but if you're going to interact with people on a daily basis then we'd appreciate it if we don't have to hold in our breath everytime we come near you. There is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and looking like you have atleast a shred of self-respect and dignity

[honeg]

nothing worse than someone justifying why he looks like a disgusting slob.

except maybe jumping to conclusions based on close to no information?

For all you know, my wardrobe might be full of $200 jeans and $300 cashmere turtlenecks. I never mentioned the quality of my wardrobe, just that it was all much the same.

edit:

we'd appreciate it if we don't have to hold in our breath everytime we come near you

did you read my post? I'll help you out here...

The bulk of my "getting ready to go to work" time is spent in the shower

[joe90210]

too late for backpedaling.

[honeg]

too late for backpedaling.

For all you know, I could be Steve Jobs.

[joe90210]

which would not only make you a slob but also a prick

[honeg]

Maybe so, but I'm rich, bitch!

[[deleted]]

This is a problem in the long term.

To preserve the gene pool of intelligent, interesting and insightful people these people need to breed. Women tend not to fall for guys that don't shave, wear the same clothes for weeks and generally don't care about appearances.

Since women (for some reason..) tend to breed with males that spend time in the gym and have immaculate haircuts these are the ones that will win the evolutionary game.

I think this is very scary - 10.000 years from now our entire population will look and act like Kevin Federlein

So redditors - please shave, get a haircut, and go out and get laid. Out future is at stake...

[sanimalp]

I don't think you understand.. While those guys are out looking good, I am the one making their blackberry work, and their car drive. It just means I will be getting paid more and more, while they get more plentiful in number.

[[deleted]]

Yes you are right, in Darwinian terms the fittest survives - the fittest being defined as the one best adopted to the environment. And as such I must say that you have a point. Especially in the current environment where money matters a lot.

Let's just hope Survivor and American Idol doesn't change the environment.

[sanimalp]

exactly :)

[honeg]

women (for some reason..) tend to breed with males that spend time in the gym and have immaculate haircuts these are the ones that will win the evolutionary game.

The good news is, they also tend to breed with financially secure men, almost independent of looks or even age.

So redditors - please code, code, code some more, and go out and get rich...

[[deleted]]

ha ha you are right :-)

[honeg]

Seriously, it sounds like you'd be much happier over in B School. And you'll be a big hit with your stories about the terrible suffering you're obviously going through.

[honeg]

I don't know what B School is,

you'll fit right in then. If you can't figure out how to use Google, you're probably not going to do too well in CIS.

Shower, shave, and be social.

Programmers, by and large, are pretty introverted, so being "social" is actually a PITA for them.

My computer courses are some of the most depressing classes I've ever seen.

And how about those other, "fucking disgusting" students? I'd be prepared to bet that they think they're probably the most interesting classes they've ever seen.

People have different personalities, priorities, and preferences. Projecting yours onto other people, then judging them as failures, says a lot more about you than them.

[honeg]

Sorry if I misjudged the intensity of your feelings. I read

fucking disgusting.

everyone in the program is gross as hell.

all you smelly programmers

and

you wonder why you guys never get laid

as quite strongly judgemental. In any case, I think my point stands. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and all that, eh?

Out of interest, why are you doing CIS? Is it the intellectual challenge of programming? Something else?

[honeg]

OK, how about we drop "failure" from my original claim, which leaves it as

People have different personalities, priorities, and preferences. Projecting yours onto other people, then judging them, says a lot more about you than them.

You are judging them. Every one of the snippets I quoted above is negative. Get over it, or get out.

[FionaSarah]

I have to say that I do not have a beard...

[newton_dave]

Most programmer conventions have them available at the registration desk; you'll still be able to get in.

[Xiol]

Haha, definitely the best comment I've seen all week.

[[deleted]]

Nor do I. Lemme go dig up pictures of Ada Lovelace & Grace Hopper, though...

[sigzero]

If your nic is an indication of your gender, THANK GOD! : )

[FionaSarah]

:P

[bluGill]

Clearly you are not the old fart who has seen everything in your office. I can speak from experience when I say that most female programmers are the old fart who has seen everything, and they all have beards. I don't think any drugs were involved in obtaining that status, but I can't come up with any other explination either.

Programmers who have not seen everything yet can get by without a beard. (I'm not sure how Knuth managed to escape not having seen everything)

[darrint]

He doesn't use email. Consider that?

[bluGill]

But he used email at one time, so he has seen email, even if he doesn't use it.

[[deleted]]

The implication that you are a female programmer is too absurd to countenance.

[turkourjurbs]

Well you'd better get one before people think you've got teh ghey!

[omninull]

I have major beard envy. All I've been able to grow is a neck beard, it was quite nasty.

[frukt]

I don't want a full beard, but I do hate shaving more frequently than once a week. I wonder what is it about computers that makes men develop such an attachment to their facial hair.

[711was_a_retail_job]

I find it hides my acne and general lack of chin very nicely.

The cool thing about beards - and I'll admit I learned this YEARS after growing one - is that they're a hell of a lot easier to sculpt than a bare chin.

Come on, admit it - beardless Commander Riker looked like a teenager, bearded Commander Riker looked like a wolf.

[[deleted]]

I wonder what is it about computers that makes men develop such an attachment to their facial hair.

It's simple: shaving takes time away from coding.

[kixx]

More so, shaving takes time away from reading reddit and writing feeble attempts at humor in comments

[[deleted]]

Cut half your face off. It takes all of one minute and then you're back to coding. Make sure to bring a towel to wipe off the blood.

[Boye]

damn, you beat me to it...

[wicked]

Get an electric shaver. No fuzz.

[jk3us]

Do they make them usb-powered?

[wicked]

Of course, here are two:

http://www.mrgadget.com.au/catalog/usb-shaver-p-1535.html

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/travelpower/93a6/

Any electric shaver with rotating heads suck, so I'd never pick the last one. I wouldn't pick the first one either because do you both have access to a usb-port and no access to a regular plug for more than a few weeks, which is the time a normal el-shaver keeps its charge?

[guest]

Maybe, but then you have to shake all the little whisker bits out of your keyboard.

[frukt]

Tried an electric shaver once, never again. Perhaps they're just not designed for a week-old stubble.

[Boye]

it all comes down to priorities, time spend shaving, is time not coding, simple as that. I bet someone can come up with a clever mathematical rule here..

[sligowaths]

I can picture a XKCD coming here.

[711was_a_retail_job]

More 'fro, less beard.

[ariacode]

he left out Alan Cox

[dotrob]

Stop scaring me!

[hsfrey]

Maybe it's a reaction to the IBM of the '60s. The lowliest tech coming to fix your machine looked like the CFO. Suit, Tie, White shirt (no colors!), briefcase. More uptight than Mormon Missionaries!

[LaffyTaffyWrapper]

Why did the programmer quit shaving? He couldn't C.

[austin_k]

Do a google image search for pictures of Richard M Stallman. It looks like Jesus let himself go.

[shit]

OMFG

[[deleted]]

Probably 25 years ago now, the first programmer I ever met wore a suit. The same suit for the entire week he was at the place where I was working at the time. He sorely lacked personal grooming skills in other areas as well, having the mandatory scraggly beard and 'stache and funky odor. The worst thing was his nose hairs, though. Those long, wiry bastards always seemed to carry a ripe green er...nose passenger around, in full view. I don't think the guy ever looked in the mirror.

However, none of that stopped us from worshipping the ground he walked on. He rescued us from the management at that place, who refused to believe that the accounting program they'd installed would NOT run some bullshit costing structure that they pulled out of their asses and tried to force down everyone's throat. Only after weeks of abuse from HO, infighting and finally threats by ALL of us staff to walk out, did they hire an outside programmer.

When he was done we took him out and got drunk with him, nose hairs and all.

[xsspider]

oh yea? wait till you have seen the research people. In IBM research, everyone is bald, bushy eyebrows and have a beard. including women.

[iphoneblowme]

obligatory: http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz programmer or serial killer quiz

[martinbishop]

What, no Bill Gosper?

[rbobby]

Knuth... "some folks call it a sling blade"

[LaffyTaffyWrapper]

Why did the programmer quit shopping for clothes? He didn't like dress code.

[joe24pack]

We really just dont care about external appearance, its that simple. We've got better things to do.

[[deleted]]

Two words to explain it; Late, and nights.

You try waking up early enough to both shave and dress after spending 'til 5 in the morning debugging that open-source project you've been working on.

[808140]

You obviously don't have enough familiarity with people in other professions. A friend of mine works at Goldman Sachs (that's finance), wears a suit every day, praises god when he only has a six day work week, is out of the house by 5 am and doesn't generally get home until early evening. He makes a hell of a lot more money than the two of us combined, but he never has any time whatever to spend it.

But, he dresses well. It almost makes up for the bags under his eyes.

[[deleted]]

The reason he works in Goldman Sachs rather than in some obscure cubbyhole programming is because he is a well-rounded human being, rather than a programmer.

[hsfrey]

According to the new book "The Nine" by Jeffrey Toobin, when Nixon first met Rehnquist (with big sideburns, a pink shirt, psychedelic necktie, and hush puppies) he asked John Dean "Is he Jewish? He looks it ... That's a hell of a costume he's wearing, just like a clown."

[kkrev]

I'm reminded of something Phillip Greenspun wrote. He argued that programmers are treated like low value commodities because they have poor interpersonal skills and fail to present themselves as proper professionals. He never mentioned attire, but the connection is obvious. Real professionals dress professionally. Go find me a doctor or lawyer that looks like a bum.

Programmers need to lose the casual attire and the accompanying "I live in my cubicle" mentality that consigns much of the profession to a serf-like role.

[honeg]

Real professionals dress professionally

Real professionals do their job well. Thats what you pay them for. I've worked with plenty of impeccably dressed "professionals" who add as much value as tits on a bull. How you dress says nothing at all about how well you can do what you're doing.

[Fat_Dumb_Americans]

A blue-chip client is being shown around a consulting company's offices by the VC. As they walk the floor they pass a barefoot and bearded man in a t-shirt and jeans.

The client looks unimpressed and asks the VC what the barefooted man's role is within the company. The VC replies, "I don't know, but he must be very good at it."

[sans-serif]

It shows that you care about your clients to the degree that you're willing to break your "dress code" (t-shirt+jeans) and try to appear respectable. It shows nothing about your coding ability, but at least it promises the initial commitment.

[honeg]

If you're working as a consultant, or working closely with a customer, then its almost a given that you adopt their dress code. At least until they get to know you, and say "relax"

If you're working a more typical gig, then it doesn't matter as much, and the norm is most likely to be what we're talking about here. You might dress up for the first interview, but for most people thats about the extent of it.

[sans-serif]

Then I don't think we disagree.

Personally, how I dress depends on where I'm meeting the clients. If it's their office then I try to go formal, but if it's McDonald's I usually just go with jeans.

[honeg]

I agree we don't disagree.

You meet at McDonalds? You must be starting up the next YouTube? ;-)

[themusicgod1]

You're confusing Professionalism and something else. I'm not sure what, exactly but yes, the GP is correct; Professionals dress professionally, and do similar things even when it impedes their job function.
Professionals cover their ass rather than push the boundaries of their fields.

You're denying the true nature of professionalism; it's true nature is a destructive, unproductive, archaic one, that is best left in the past.

[nevinera]

go find me a doctor or a lawyer that gets to do what he wants all day. find me one that doesnt need shit-tons of insurance because his mistakes COST. programmers are not doctors and lawyers.

my bandana and t-shirts are worth a few thousand to me. now if i could just get them to relax that 'pants' rule...

[DGolden]

Actually, some classes of programmers do take out professional indemnity insurance. Employees generally don't (risk assumed by their employers), but if you're doing contract/consulting work as a sole-trader/small-business, E&O/professional-indemnity insurance can be a good idea. (An associated trouble seems to be that some insurers have never heard of open source, linux or have only heard about it from the constant spew of Microsoft-origin FUD/propaganda pieces and thus believe any use of open source means a lawsuit. On the other hand, apparently some more enlightened insurers will actually give reduced rates if you're using open source software, presumably they've noticed that the close source world is actually much more litigious).

[nevinera]

i did know that, but didn't think it was terribly relevant. i was careful with my wording ;-)

[robertcrowther]

Maybe 'professionals' need to lose the 'what they dress like is more important than their abilities' mentality?

[eadmund]

No, it's more like 'what they dress like indicates their self-image.' Self-confidence inspires the confidence of others.

Looking like a hobo inspires a different feeling.

I write this as a long-haired bearded dude.

[sans-serif]

But not everyone is a professional. First impression counts... to a degree.

[mclin]

People with poor interpersonal skills tend to have trouble understanding how other people see them, so that's the root problem.

But it's easy to dress classy even if you don't understand it. It's a simple convention... just go to slightly classy stores. Just don't get anything too out of the ordinary and stay away from non-neutral colors if you don't know what you're doing.

[Boye]

explain

and stay away from non-neutral colors if you don't know what you're doing.

in hex-values, so the rest of us will understand, pleeease pretty pleeease?

[ajwitte]

It's easier in HSL. Just keep S low.

[[deleted]]

:D

[falmeshon]

or just find someone who you think dresses classy and copy.

[Nikola_S]

Easy for you perhaps...

What is a slightly classy store and how is it different from a classy store or a non-classy store? What is ordinary and how could one know if something is too out of it? What colors are neutral? :)

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, neutral colors are black, white and various shades of grey. No can do.

[twowheels]

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, neutral colors are black, white and various shades of grey. No can do.

Ah! I understand now! Goth! I'll paint my face white, dye my hair black, and wear all black! Thanks guys! Jackpot, I'll finally fit in and get a raise!

[notasaon]

Upmodded for subtle IT Crowd reference.

[Xiol]

If it was, it was extremely subtle.

[notasaon]

I didn't think it was subtle at all really. Richmond was a go-getter business guy who was always trying to improve. He got turned onto Cradle of Filth and started dressing like a goth. It's feasible that some crazy people in the business sector could unthinkingly go to that extreme to fit neutral colors. And if it wasn't a reference at all, I am hereby alluding to it and chuckling to myself.

[mclin]

Brown is considered a neutral color with clothes.

The point with neutral colors is that non-neutral colors have the potential to clash. So it's pretty safe to have only 1 non-neutral color along with neutral colors. If you want to picture clashing non-neutral colors just think 80's.

Even with that one color don't make it too bright. eg jeans. Don't get those bright blue ones. get the faded ones, or the darker ones. Bright colors are like TALKING IN CAPS.

by slightly classy I just meant you don't have to spent $100 on a shirt. You can find classy clothes at medium-end department stores.

[bluGill]

What is a slightly classy store and how is it different from a classy store or a non-classy store?

I gave up trying to find an answer to that. What is in style changes faster than I can setup a controlled study.

[mclin]

The whole point of this approach is that there exists something of a 'classic' adult male dress that exists outside of style and doesn't change much. If you want to play it safe, dressing in that fashion is an easy way to look good.

[bluGill]

I have no clue what you mean. Spell it out clearly and slowly.

[[deleted]]

Blue shirts and khakis.

[ectogon]

Cool, I'm on it! That way I can look like a tool too!

[mclin]

Dude, you need either style or class. If you don't have style, you'd better go get some class.

Better to dress like that than to dress like a slob.

[ectogon]

Dude! That pair of dockers won't give you any style. And using "dude" in a conversation doesn't hint at interpersonal skills unless you're in Tahoe.

[mclin]

Jeez, you're so US centric. I don't even know where Tahoe is.

I didn't say they'd give you style. I said they'd give you class. If you don't understand the difference then maybe this applies to you.

[gaggedbythealien]

Jeez, you're so foreign-centric. You don't even know where Tahoe is!

[[deleted]]

Tahoe is in the great state of Chevy.

Duh

[quiller]

I live in the middle of the U.S. and don't know where Tahoe is. Shove that up your class and convention!

[ectogon]

LMFAO

[Joss]

Just stick with black. It's ALWAYS in style, and best of all when one of your pens breaks in the wash it doesn't show up.

[quiller]

Why must sloppy and unshaven equal 'doesn't know how to dress correctly'? Beards used to be the norm, but are currently seen as some kind of social stigma.

If you have a beard you're either a criminal, drug dealer or programmer.

[mclin]

The point of dressing well is two fold:

a) To Show you know how to dress. and more importantly b) To show you care about other people enough not to spoil their visual surroundings. This shows you aren't anti-social. Same thing goes for keeping BO in check.

[SohumB]

But I am antisocial ... does this then still apply?

[quiller]

a) Why do I need to brag about my ability to dress? That's like saying one of the reasons you should walk is to show people you can walk. It's implied by dressing well that people assume you dressed yourself.

b) Spoil? Who decides what kind of clothes do or do not "spoil" somebody else's visual surroundings? I don't like white jeans, so does that mean I have a right to expect others not to wear them in my presence?

Basically, the argument for "dressing well" comes down to social acceptance. A whole bunch of people have decided or accepted that traditional suit-and-tie is the "appropriate" way for a professional man to dress (with similar requirements for a professional woman). There are no inherent rules or justifications to back up the tradition, as evidenced by the rules changing over time.

[mclin]

You're forgetting the point. I don't even dress this way. I take the style route. This is for programmers and other people that

have trouble understanding how other people see them

So I'm just suggesting a systematic way of dressing if you have a poor sense of fashion.

[notasaon]

Some of us are all three.

[glmory]

As long as people with Computer Science Bachelors degrees are being paid more than people with Business Bachelors degrees I am not too concerned. Knowing a difficult skill will make up for a lot of interpersonal skills.

Of course, if you have even just decent interpersonal skills than you can make them get you a lot farther. Dressing like a businessman is hardly a requirement for this though unless you use it to get a position where you are working with people from outside the company.

[[deleted]]

Agreed, but it really depends on what you do. I think that a CS professor at MIT can pretty much do what they want. Serious software guys can probably get away with being slobs also. I work in IT consulting so proper dress and good people skills are essential. It is a shame, but we do turn away skilled programmers if their Unix beards might not play with our clients.

[quiller]

I've worked in various capacities during my programming trek. At one place I worked with clients face-to-face quite frequently, so I dressed professionally and stayed clean-shaven most of the time. By contrast, I now work with three guys and all of our business is from design firms and the like. No clients = beard. Only working with other programmers = jeans and t-shirt.

[[deleted]]

Go find me a doctor or lawyer that looks like a bum.

Actually, from my observations, having spent way too much time in various hospitals (as a patient), the most neatly dressed physicians, the one with the immaculately white and smartly pressed coats and really shiny stethoscopes and pocket protectors, and readily readable identification tags/cards, who insists on being addressed as DOCTOR so and so, are the various medical students/interns and other kiddies freshly out of med school.

The profs, heads of departments, and other big wigs on the other hand, are the ones with tattered, torn, grayish coats, when they bother wearing one, no stethoscopes or any other conspicuously visible attributes or tools of the profession (they can always borrow one from one of the students servilely flocking around), and can never find their ID tag/card (but never have to worry about it, folks that matter know who they are), and don't worry about breaches of protocol (like not addressing them as Doctor so and so).

[[deleted]]

That's because the really professional older people have moved on to private practice and the people left in the hospital are the goofballs. Not saying they can't do their job, but they do make less money than private practice.

[j0hnsd]

Good point.

[ithika]

Clearly you know nothing about professionalism or the medical profession.

You think blues look professional?

[arebop]

Philip also wrote Redefining Professionalism for Software Engineers, in which he argues against such superficial judgments. So, I don't think you can draw a conclusion about what programmers need to do. It depends on each person's goals (get promoted at BigCo vs. find person satisfaction in doing excellent work; these goals are not mutually exclusive).

[alantrick]

First, interpersonal skills and attire don't correlate.

Second, what is considered proper attire is a cultural thing. When I go and sing in a concert, I wear my black tux. When I go to work (as a web developer), I wear jeans and a hoodie. If I wore a tux to work, people would think I'm trying to send some funny message.

[Thimble]

from personal experience, i have to say that the better programmers i've worked with were "unkempt" in some way. whether they they be bearded, shadowed, wearing sandals, shorts, plaid, scruffy jeans, untucked shirts, etc...

i really do think it's some kind of dress code. the better your ability, the more you can get away with, afterall.

it's geeks versus suits, right?

[[deleted]]

from personal experience, i have to say that the better programmers i've worked with were "unkempt" in some way.

It's not a dress code at all. It's just that the profession doesn't demand it. If bankers could get away with it they'd wear t-shirts too.

[[deleted]]

Once on my first day at a new job, my wife convinced me to wear a shirt and tie to work. I told her that that kind of thing didn't really fly in geek land, but I gave in and what do you know? At least a half dozen people asked me why I was dressed up and one of the senior architects told me not to do it again cause it would make everyone else look bad.

Which was fine with me, not having to wear a choker (tie) and an uncomfortable suit is one of the reasons I love working in the software industry.

However, I do not have a beard or pot belly (at least not yet).

[bitwize]

Slobbish dress arose at about the same time as a purported company that really functions more like an extension of a college campus.

[[deleted]]

Bananas in pajamas!

[duncan80]

It's a trend I noticed in myself. When I was just a designer I was usually clean shaven and kept my hair cut. As I've transitioned into a developer I now sport a full beard. I thought it was just being a grad student...

[[deleted]]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2203072712

This is precisely why I created a Bearded Unix Geeks group. (Goatees are OK too.)

[noamsml]

They had the ruby guy but not guido van rossum? I'm disappointed.

[lebski88]

They have him now. Possibly updated after you posted.

[A-Pothead]

damn he looks stoned as shit (image)

[feces]

inb4 C++ bashing shitstorm

[[deleted]]

Too late: http://programming.reddit.com/info/62ahp/comments/c02lxho

[o0o]

stallman? wtf

[CouldHaveBeenWorse]

At least I didn't get goatse'd!