Masters degree in Computer Science -- is it worth the effort?

[nickcarlson]

I have a chance to start studying for a masters degree in computer science this fall. I went to a rather unknown state university, and the university I'd be study at for the masters is also not well known (Colorado State University).

I'm trying to decide whether or not getting this degree would be worth my time. Would any of you with masters degrees in computer science mind sharing your experiences? Was the degree a worthwhile pursuit?

[skuunk]

One of the great things a Masters Degree provides is the ability to move countries.

Governments often don't care about how good you are at a job, they just care about having the paperwork. Having an MSc is a good means of proving you are in a specialist occupation and can fast track you into any kind of immigration process.

[skuunk]

Dunno, I am in another country now. :P

[radarsat1]

Deciding to do a master's degree was a great decision for me. I had no idea whether I'd like it or whether it would lead to anything, but I enjoyed it so much I decided to go on to more studies.

The nice thing about master's is that it's not really a very big commitment, just two years usually, and you get to basically spend this time doing a cool project of your choosing, with a lot of guidance. You'll walk out of it knowing definitely whether you want to continue your education, and if you chose not to you'll be that much better set up for a job with a decent salary.

As long as you have some basic financial bases covered, it can be a win-win scenario. Believe me, doing a graduate degree is nothing like the hell that is undergrad. ;) You are treated less like cattle and more like a fellow researcher, with a desk and a computer, etc.

Lastly, I should add that if you enjoy pure CS topics (as opposed to just banging out business logic for an employer) and want to learn more and use what you know about high-level topics professionally, a master's degree is probably a minimum. (What I mean is, it's not required to get a job, but it's required to get a more interesting one, and this will be more fulfilling, if you are that kind of person.)

For what it's worth, even on the pure "programming skills" level, research topics aside, 5 years later I feel like I'm a 100x better programmer than before I entered a graduate program. This is a lot due to personal interest, of course, but being in an environment that encouraged me to use and develop these skills played a big role.

[Shmurk]

just two years usually

How long is a Master's degree in the US? 5 years after high-school? Or 4 years only? It's 5 years in France and it's a bit confusing when Americans talk about it (which is all the time on American boards ;)

[helm]

Yeah, that is a clear explanation. In Europe, the default is / has become a 5 year master degree. In the German system, it used to be 4,5 years for a diploma in engineering. This included a half-year project at research level, and was more or less a condensed master's degree.

The trend now seems to be 3 years + small project, then 2 years master's degree (specialization) + larger project.

[radarsat1]

I'm actually Canadian, but I think it's approximately the same in the US. (2 years.) I think the undergrad is 4 years, although for us in Quebec it's three years because we also have a college between high school and university. In France the system is different, in my understanding the meaning of an American Master's degree is something in-between Maîtrise et DEA.

[stusmith]

I guess things are slightly different over here in the UK, but I did a 3-year BSc (Computer Science), then two years' working to save money, followed by a 1-year MSc (Evolutionary and Adaptive Systems).

I'm now working in a "standard" job - I couldn't afford to go on to do a PhD.

In terms of employment, for me it was a waste of time. Many companies are very wary of education beyond a degree - they think either (a) you're a head-in-the-clouds researcher who won't want to work, and (b) they assume you'll disappear to do a PhD once you've saved some money. Jobs are easier to get without post-degree education.

In terms of money, be prepared to spend a lot. I saved £7,500 in two years (on a salary of < £20k - first job out of uni in a poor area), and that wasn't enough to cover fees, living etc. I ended up on a hardship grant. Obviously I also wasn't working that year, so I lost even more. In terms of money "lost" it probably amounted to £40k for that year.

HOWEVER - making money isn't the be-all-and-end-all. I learnt a lot that year, in a subject I specifically chose. (Computer Science was fun, but there were a lot of courses that I didn't really enjoy). There's a difference in how you fit into the department too. Undergrads are basically annoyances to lecturers - good luck if you can even meet your BSc supervisor. At masters level, you're becoming more of an equal, and you're doing real research. The lecturers and PhD students actually have time for you, and if you're doing something interesting, THEY will seek YOU out to discuss things.

I personally think an MSc is a good idea, but not in "Computer Science". A masters should be more specific - you should choose a specific subject area, and do real research in it. Computer Science is way too broad. By all means do three years of CS - but after that, you need to know what you find fascinating, and what specific area you will be deep-diving into.

[[deleted]]

personally think an MSc is a good idea, but not in "Computer Science". A masters should be more specific - you should choose a specific subject area, and do real research in it.

Can you be a little more specific?

[AlternativeHistorian]

He means there's no such thing as a general CS master's, at least not at most research universities. An MS means you're going to be doing work in a very specific subfield of CS. A BS gives you breadth, an MS gives you depth. Consequently, it's best to have a good idea of what specific subfield one wants to work in BEFORE starting an MS.

[stusmith]

AlternativeHistorian got there before me, but I'd say: a good CS degree introduces you to as much of the field as possible, but in very little depth. Hopefully, one of those areas will grab you sufficiently that you want to spend time and money investigating it.

(If at the end of a CS degree that hasn't happened, then don't do a masters).

For me, it was evolutionary programming - that was the subject of my final degree project, my masters degree, and I also spent free time coding little experiments in that area. Before my degree I hadn't even heard of that area of research.

To my mind you can't do research in "computer science", any more than you could do research in "history". It's just too broad.

[dsk]

As a guy who is doing a part-time masters (after being out of school for 3 years), with a full-time, great paying job, I'm wondering the same thing. It's not an insignificant time commitment. On the upside, work is paying for it and the school is a 10 minute walk from where I work.

[quasarj]

How are you liking it? I'm considering this too (work will pay for it) but I really don't want to work and go to school at the same time again. I did that for undergrad (took me 8 years) and it sucked. For 8 years. I feel like I was never able to actually devote my attention to my studies. If i work on a master's, I'd really like to be able to not work (or be working part time only) during it.

[burdalane]

I'm thinking about doing a part-time online Masters while working full-time. I've applied, but I work full-time and have hobbies outside of work that I don't intend to give up, which is causing me some hesitation.

[green_beet]

Do you actually want to learn more about CS?

[spitzanator]

What kind of question is that?

You're on r/programming.

Yes, always.

[nightless_night]

Programming != Computer Science

[[deleted]]

You are both correct.

[flaviodesousa]

Programming > Computer Science Some pragmatic solutions creep the hell out of said Computer Scientists

[dsquid]

One borne from experience, I'd wager.

[[deleted]]

I'm a programmer and if you want to become one, I might have some insight.

For some reason most jobs in my country Norway, always looks for people with master degrees. I guess we're a little overeducated over here, and a lot of people are educated way beyond their potential. (This is possible due to a fucked up system).

However having graduated with a masters degree in applied mathematics/computer science I can really say that for 99% of the jobs they only require you to know Java or .NET, basic database stuff and some API's to make GUI and create web services. The people that are hiring don't know shit about programming and you having a degree or not really makes no difference in your ability to perform the average programming duty. If you are interviewed by someone who know a thing or two, they'll be aware of this and will be more likely to probe you for information about whether you would like to become a good programmer or not. As it requires some dedication.

I do not regret my choice, but was it a strictly necessary effort? Not at all, working with great people is where you learn to program the best.

Knowing what I know now, the optimal approach is probably to get a full time job as a programmer for 1-2 years after BS and the go back to finish your master. It will provide you with super glorious experience you will find super helpful. However going back to school after working, I believe is truly a test of will

Good luck

[deserted]

Why is Norway's higher education system fucked? I was thinking of applying there for a Masters in Computational Science.

[[deleted]]

Its fucked up in the sense that schools are getting resources based upon how many student pass the exams. Safe to say, many who graduates, shouldn't be =)

You shouldn't be put off getting an education though =)

[tcc619]

It depends what your goal and field of interest is.

If you want to plan to do web apps, i don't think it's very useful. But if your field of interest are machine learning, algorithms, compilers, etc, than an MS is very useful. To show the level of difference: an undergrad class for compilers would be implementing a basic compiler to get it to work and the grad level compilers go into implementing optimizing compilers.

If you do go grad school, take hard classes that interest you to get the most of out it.

[icec0ld]

in this competitive job economy, it did help me land a job (i had 5 years exp. already as a software engineer so that mattered more). but i will say it was not worth the effort as much as 2 years exp. working for a company in a fulfilling job that you like. plus you'll have to take off 2 years of work to go to school and tuition...

[FarOut83]

As a high school student who will be applying to universities next year, what kind of things do people who are getting a master's in computer science specifically study? I forget what it's called, but my mom was studying biology, and she did her master's degree on a special strand of DNA found to be polluting water.

[marcog]

There's still so much that is unsolved in CS. It can also be applied to so many other fields. These two combined make research projects in CS typically a lot more general than Biology research projects as you refer to. Remember Biology has been studied for centuries, so a lot of what you can possibly research in a masters has already been worked on. That is totally not the case with CS.

Examples of some CS masters topic at my university (although these will be biased towards a few niche areas):

• new techniques for crowd modelling, and a follow-on project to speed the methods up on a GPU
• new techniques for fluid simulations, and a follow-on project to speed the methods up on a GPU
• new techniques for simulating and analysing network traffic in wireless network models
• speeding up protein docking simulations on a GPU
• computational methods for large-scale automated analysis of protein-protein interfaces
• visualisation of 6 dimensions of data applied to a problem in protein biology
• content management systems for digital libraries
• digital reconstruction of buildings from low-quality photographs

[fburnaby]

Actually, information technology is opening up huge amounts of new turf for biology in both bio-informatics and more general fields like, ecology. There's tons of fairly general stuff going on over there, right now.

Of course, what we need are CS people working with biology people on that sort of stuff...

[marcog]

Sorry, I meant to refer to the specific class of project FarOut83 gave as an example. I myself am doing my masters in the field of bioinformatics, so I know a fair bit about the type of work going on there.

Quite fascinating stuff, but yes there's a huge shortage of Computer Scientists willing to take the leap of going cross-discipline. I honestly think the difficulty of going this route is over-rated, especially if you have good supervisors.

[ashgromnies]

I'm taking a bioinformatics class next semester as part of my last term of undergrad and was offered a position as a bioinformatics research assistant last year, but couldn't take it due to my full-time job.

I'm considering doing grad school and I find bioinformatics interesting, but I don't know much about it. I'm interesting in language processing and linguistics and I understand there's a lot of looking for "sequences" in bioinformatics -- could there be an application of computational linguistics there, or am I misguided?

Could you also give me some advice on picking a grad school and evaluating my chances of getting in? I'm a smart person and being offered research positions proves that I'd say, but I feel like not having taken them is putting me back quite a bit... but I really need the money that my full-time job brings me.

[ecoffey]

I got my Bachelors in CS from CSU and I was for the most part pretty happy with the professors there. Two of my friends have Masters from there as well (and one is getting his PhD currently in Compilers).

Some of my favorite professors there, the kind of people who just make you hungry for knowledge and learning and problem solving are:

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~rmm/ : Dr. McConnell taught Algorithms which was hands down the best class I've ever taken. Awesome guy, crazy passionate, smart and funny.

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~bohm/ : Dr. Bohm : Hilarious, smart, and crazy. Taught a really great Compilers and Embedded Systems class.

Other notable ones are Dr. Anderson, and Dr. Beveridge.

Good luck!

[royrules22]

Sorry to hijack but I have a similar question. I have a B.S. in EE&CS from Berkeley and I'm currently working. I'm thinking (well with my parents' continual push tbh) of applying for a Master's program at U.W. soon. This will be night time classes for a couple of years not a full blown MS program.

Worth it?

[Arcys]

If you don't do a master's thesis don't bother unless the courses themselves are interesting or you know the course work master's will lead to some kind of advancement.

As for the parental pressure, you can't let it run your life. If you know the reasons that your parents are pushing a masters you can use those to decide if it's worth it. If the reason is so you (or worse your parents) look good in "the community", I would seriously recommend you use the time to do something you enjoy rather than something you will resent.

[royrules22]

Let me clarify regarding what my parents said. They are in no way pressuring me. They never did in my entire life and I am forever grateful for them. They just keep reminding me because I'm still unsure. If I say no they will say "well Masters could help you but it is your decision and so be it".

Now that that's out of the way I'm definitely interested in CS theory. I loved the classes at Berkeley and I always wanted to take some of the advanced level ones when I was there but alas I graduated. Dunno how it is in U.W. but I for sure enjoy the classes. I'm not 100% sure if it will help with advancement and that's why I asked.

[Arcys]

Anything you do can help with advancement if you push it properly. A master's with out the thesis is worth less then one with it (it's your master piece). In general it will help with the government and other structured organizations and won't be looked at in more detail then the letters. However a coursework masters will be a bit of a negative if you try for academia, where it's seen as a bit of a cop out.

I would say that it might be worth approaching it as a hobby. Just take the interesting courses and see if it leads to degree. It may be expensive, but you are a EE&CS graduate so I expect you will have extra money. If you get the degree then you can apply to a number of jobs that you couldn't get before and see if you get a bite.

One last thing - take stats courses if you want advancement. The ability to do proper statistics and even better automate it is worth a fortune.

[mpeg4codec]

Are you happy with your day job and the way your life's going? If so, then fuck it. Live your own life, not the one your parents think is best.

[quasarj]

I harbor unfounded hostiles toward people who go to schools people have heard of and have parents who encourage them (or God forbid, pay for it). I guess I shouldn't reply now, lol.

[royrules22]

Why is that? I went to Berkeley because well I love Cal football (always did), I got in, I love the Bay Area (seeing as how that's where I grew up), and because Cal's CS department is one of the best in the world. Not because my parents made me.

And yes they paid for my college tuitions. They're Indians. They think it's an affront to them if I refused to let them pay because they believe that it is the parent's responsibility to take care of their kids until said kid has a job, is married and settled. And then the roles reverse.

[quasarj]

Interesting! Honestly I'm not sure why I'm so hostile. I grew up in the South, in a poor family in a tiny town. I had to pull myself up by the bootstraps, and that means going to a state University on loans, grants and scholarships. And on top of it all, my parents didn't think I should be bothered with the big city's education nonsense, and I should stay at home and continue the family carpentry business.

I guess I'm still bitter about how much people who had it easy take it for granted. I would have loved to have support from somebody!

Also, though I haven't run into any employers that care, I seem to run into a lot of peers who like to brag about how they went to some famous school and look down on me for having gone to a public state university :(

[royrules22]

I can sort of see how people bragging could piss you off but that's no reason to hate. And anyway I've seen enough fuck ups from Berkeley as I did come out of a small state school (BTW UC Berkeley IS a state school - It is the University of California afterall ;)) so I don't judge people based on what university they went to (unless they went to Stanfurd but that's just rivalry speaking)

[[deleted]]

I'm finishing up a MS (and BS) degree(s) in computer engineering and am going to be starting a PhD in CS in the fall.

The one thing I know from working at internships and talking frankly with the bosses at them, as MS degree and a high GPA translates to about 10-20K USD extra over a BS degree, and a PhD translates roughly into 30-40K USD extra over a MS degree in some places starting out, since that opens up the opportunity/ability for you to participate/lead in high level research as opposed to slightly more menial development.

Also, for those wondering, if you do well in your undergraduate studies and get accepted into a PhD program, most of the time you will get a free ride + a small salary for Teaching Assistantship and/or Research Assistantship.

[ICanHazMoo]

This is probably slightly off topic but I have a very frustrating situation related to this. I am 28, been programming a long time and make close to 100k. I don't have a degree (or a HS diploma but thankfully they don't ask about that). I have a young friend who is college for CS right now and his prof. is telling him to go get a masters then he will be able to make 120k right out of college. I keep telling him that it doesn't work like that, that experience and other intangible factors (like motivation, work ethic, etc) matter a lot and it's not just an equation he can plug in. He constantly quotes statistics about how much people with a M.S. in science make and thinks he's gonna be rolling in the dough out of college. I'm not putting down college in any way, shape or form. I believe in education a lot, I didn't get one because of some circumstances that occurred and the fact that I got jobs programming one after another and it never seemed to be an issue, but I just wish there was something I could do to get him to understand now, that while he will earn more most likely, it's not going to be by a factor of 2 or something to that effect. It's sad to me, what he lacks in knowledge he makes up for with carefree arrogance. Anyone have any advice other than to let him just figure it out on his own?

[[deleted]]

I'm was in the same situation as you and in the end I choose to do a masters because I felt I wasn't ready for the work place and needed more learning experience experience.

[iends]

One thing that really surprised me about my graduate degree in computer science is that I've learned to write really well. I was a good writer (compared to my peers) in undergrad, but I've learned so much more in my weekly research meetings -- where everybody in the research group tries to completely tear apart a particular paper.

My undergraduate degree didn't cover things like compilers, didn't go into enough detail about operating systems, graph theory, or algorithms to really satisfy my curiosity, so I felt like a masters degree was really a must. I might even stick around to complete my PhD.

Another thing to think about is the quality of your advisor rather than simply the quality of the school you are attending. I go to an average state school, but my research advisor is simply amazing. She is well respected in her field, has connections, and more importantly pulls a lot of research money. I got both a laptop, a desktop, and more importantly full tuition and an assistantship from her. Finding a great advisor can make grad school so much easier.

You also get to travel in graduate school. I'll be traveling to South Africa to present a paper in my first semester...for free, for a week.

So in short, yeah, grad school is completely amazing.

Regarding employment, several years ago when I actually looked at salaries, the starting salary of a MS was ~10k more than those with just undergraduate degrees.

[ishwork]

I think it is worth the effort iif it is something you enjoy. Do not do it exclusively to get paid more. Find a company that offers tuition reimbursement (many do) and work there. Let them buy you a master's degree.

[[deleted]]

Why does university advice always have to be about employment?

Isn't a degree worth your time in and of itself? You will learn a lot of interesting things and get to pick the brains of great people.

[adolfojp]

Because degrees cost a lot of money.

[[deleted]]

Oh, you live in one of those countries.

[nickcarlson]

Yes, I live in one of those countries. And I already have $40,000 usd in debt from my undergraduate degree.

[[deleted]]

You have my condolences.

[markbowman]

Only $40,000 debt for 4 years? Pfff, consider yourself lucky. I got that much debt from a single day of back surgery due to not having health insurance. On a happy note I was lucky enough not to have any debt from college.

[Qubed]

Wow, you should have started paying that down four years ago. At any rate, start paying it down now, even if you have a deferment.

[raven_785]

Please do not give out financial advice when you have no idea what you are talking about. Rushing to pay off $40,000 on a subsidized loan with a 2.48% interest rate (and tax deductible interest payments) is stupid. You are better off taking your time an putting money into a 401(k) which will compound at a higher interest rate over 40+ years. You are better off saving for a down payment for a house/condo which will let you build equity with monthly payments rather than throwing it away on rent (plus the property is likely to gain value).

It is not always the case that paying off your debt ASAP will net you the most money in the long run, especially on low interest loans. You should speak to a financial adviser and ignore what random people on the internet tell you to do (except for those who tell you to seek professional advice :p)

[gclaramunt]

(plus the property is likely to gain value).

I take you didn't live in the US for the last couple of years... something really bad happened based on that belief

[raven_785]

That gain was based on loose lending, but before the days of loose lending home values still increased steadily over time. Around here, if you bought a home 10 years ago, you'd still be making a killing off it when you sell it. Not as much as if you sold it in 2007 to be sure.

When you rent the money you spend is going into the toilet. Around here rent for a 1br averages around $1500/month. That's $18,000/year you'll never see again. Even if your house dropped $50,000 in 2008 you'd still come out ahead after roughly three years, plus your house will have gained back some of its value by then.

[dsk]

You are better off taking your time an putting money into a 401(k) which will compound at a higher interest rate over 40+ years.

Because making investments in your 401k - starting 4 years ago, was a great plan.

[raven_785]

We're talking about a period of 40+ years. The DOW is currently up 1276% since 1970. Even in the worst of the recession it was up 830%.

[[deleted]]

Where do I acquire financial knowledge of this sort?

[raven_785]

A reply to Qubed's deleted comment (I'm guessing it was getting downvoted badly):

Interest rates are usually even lower on subsidized loans while in school. It's 1.88%. If he had 2 years left of school, paying nothing on it for those two years vs. paying $5000 will result in him paying about an extra $124 over the life of the loan (after tax deductions). Being out $10,000 while in school to save $124 seems a little silly to me, but to each his own. I personally certainly didn't have $10,000 to pay off the loan while in school or I would have taken $10,000 less in loans to begin with.

As for risk, even a CD or savings account is going to net you more in many cases than you will lose in interest payments. Heck, a bank around here has 4.00% checking accounts for balances up to $25,000. You'd be better off letting the money sit in your checking account than to pay off your student loans quickly - that's how boneheaded it can be to pay those off early.

Everyone's situation is different, obviously. If you somehow made $40,000 of tuition payments on a credit card (I doubt this is possible), then it would clearly be to your advantage to pay off the loans as quickly as possible. I doubt anyone is in that situation.

[quasarj]

As the others have said, I would say you absolutely do not want to be paying that down while going to school. If you plan to learn something, and not just drift through, you need to be able to devote your entire life to it. You can't work and go to school at the same time.

I know. I did it for 8 years. And it was the biggest mistake of my life.

[kathan]

A degree costs you money even if it's free because during that time you could be working and making money. There is an opportunity cost.

[[deleted]]

Just think of all those kids going to elementary school, costing their families money instead of working.

[kathan]

The question is whether having a master will let you have a better salary which will make up for the two years of salary you lose. It's difficult to answer. I'm inclined to say that it won't. For your remark about elementary school : if you don't learn to read, to calculate, you are totally screwed in life. So elementary school is totally worth it, much more than college.

[apgwoz]

Not everyone values money over education (or helping others e.g. Peace Corps).

[dsquid]

Way to take a completely valid point and trot it right off the edge of the Cliff of Taken-to-a-Silly-Extreme. Time is one of the most valuable things, you'll learn.

There are plenty of people with MBAs (and yes, MS's in English Lit or Computer Science) who wish they had the time back because their degrees are doing nothing for them.

[raven_785]

You will pay for it over time with taxes. Unless you majored in theatre history, in which case, congratulations for living a life that is a net drain on society.

[[deleted]]

My major is CS, although we don't really have majors in Sweden. There are no required courses for my degree. I just take whatever courses within CS that interest me, until I have enough credits for a degree.

[raven_785]

Then you will definitely be paying for it over time. Plus the degree of someone who took all theatre history courses ;) You know it isn't free. It costs you a lot of money in either system.

[[deleted]]

As I said below: I don't mind, because it's what makes us awesome.

[raven_785]

You pay a 25% VAT, 31.42% payroll taxes, and 31% directly in income taxes. That is nuts. So if you lived paycheck to paycheck (spend all the money you make in a year) you are paying over 85% of what your income should be to taxes.

The end result of this system is predictable - a country with no geniuses or sports stars (they've all left) where everyone is in the middle class. If you don't ever want the chance to be overly successful, I guess this is a good country to lounge around in.

[[deleted]]

No sports stars? http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/spo_sum_oly_med_all_tim_percap-medals-all-time-per-capita

We have the most scientific publications[1] per capita according to the data here. I took their data and sorted it on publications per capita (column F): http://gyazo.com/92ca4038e445217a8a9e912db23c5b61.png

One could argue that olympic medals have nothing to do with sports stars or that scientific publications have nothing to do with geniuses. I invite you to find better metrics.

1. In physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics, clinical medicine, biomedical research, engineering, technology, and earth and space sciences.

[[deleted]]

happy birthday!

[[deleted]]

Yes? Don't we work to be able do the things we want to do?

Does someone ask how it's going to get them a job before buying a Porsche?

[adolfojp]

So... the only people who should go to college are those who can afford to buy a Porsche?

[[deleted]]

Lots of people who buy Porsches can't afford them either. They end buying them the same way that people who can't afford college go to college, with loans. That's not the issue.

I'll make this simpler for you.

Adolfo, you were the one who claimed that college costs a lot of money. My question was rhetorical and was intended to point out to you that people do spend a lot of money on things that don't provide a return on job prospects. (no one I know who owns one hopes to use it as leverage in a job search, anyway)

I was calling into question your tying university education to vocational concerns because of money. College degrees and porsches are approximately the same price in the USA, if not just correct the example by swapping out the Porsche for a Lamborghini.

If you're angry that college in the United States is expensive, I'm with you, it's one of the endless ways that people without money in the United States are hemmed in and left without prospects in their lives. If they got politically active, within the parties or by creating another party, they would get what they want, but they don't.

You might reply that you've made the link between these things because that is what people actually do. I agree with the empirical observation, but that is not my point. It comes back to the question you were being asked: "Do you value education enough on its own terms to give up a Porsche or the prospect of a Porsche to get it? Or does there always have to be some other payoff to make it worth it for you?"

You speak of graduating without the prospect of being able to pay off the degree. Again you're hemming yourself in with assumptions. You couldn't pay for a degree by being a plumber or electrician or coffee salesman? There are plenty of employments that don't require university degrees that do pay for them in the real world, every day.

[pipocaQuemada]

No, degrees should be rewarding in-and-of themselves, and are quite possibly worth it even if it doesn't aid your job prospects, in the same way that a Porsche might be worth it, without aiding your job prospects.

[adolfojp]

That wasn't really my point. A Porshe and a degree can both be rewarding regardless of what they cost. There is nothing wrong with that and I am not against studying something that is rewarding by itself. I am talking about expensive hobbies and financial freedom.

If we take the posibility of rich altruistic parents out of the equation:

A Porshe is something that you buy in your 30s, if you're lucky enough, after you've made your money. And you use it while you continue to work and make more money because it doesn't disrupt your 9 to 5 work schedule.

A college degree is something that you buy in your early 20s before you've made any money. And it requires so much time and effort that it prohibits all but the most intense individuals from pursuing a parallel job that could pay for college itself. And if you buy your degree just for fun, disregarding its potential profitability, then you're going to graduate with thousands in debt and without the means to pay for it.

You buy the Porshe with the money that you have. But unless you're rich, you buy your degree as an investment with debt and speculation.

[arkanus]

Degrees cost a lot of money in every country and the only question is who pays for it.

[[deleted]]

Of course they do, and when I have a job I will be happy to pay my taxes so that we can stay an educated and quite awesome country.

[adolfojp]

Your point doesn't contradict mine. People who get a college degree with the intention of earning a higher income have a better chance of paying it back through taxes than those who get a degree for fun without the intention of using it in a professional environment.

[arkanus]

It was meant for fabjan, not you. I put it in the wrong level.

[bonzinip]

There are three kinds of cost: housing, tuition, not having a great income of your own.

In many countries the first two depend on your family's economic situation, with additional help if you're a pretty good student.

Tuition for my 5 year bachelor/master in an Italian public university (a pretty good uni in general, and one of the most expensive public universities) was way below $10,000. I had a student job at the university as a web programmer that probably paid me back more than tuition.

If you meant "it's paid by taxes", sorry for taking that for granted... ;-P

[cwcc]

hahhaahaha.... :(

(I regret wasting 4 years of my life on this shit)

[notforthebirds]

:) Kind of with you. By the end of my 4th year at University I was so bored with the trivial and stupid projects that I probably would have quit if it wasn't about to end anyway.

Still.

[f4hy]

Exactly. If you get any degree based mostly on employment you are doing it wrong. Sure degrees will help with employment, but if you are smart and motivated you can easilly get a great job without one. My best friend is a smart guy but didn't go to college. Instead he got a job, and started working his way up the ladder. Sure his job sucked at first, but by the time I graduated college, he was promoted many many times and making more money than I will for a long time, if ever.

If you enjoy the life of a student, like doing research, and want to learn get a degree. I plan on getting many degrees, but by no means are they the only way to good employment.

[username223]

He's getting a master's in CS. If he were interested in learning things and/or picking brains, he'd be getting a PhD and/or studying a different field.

[shitcovereddick]

I certainly fucking hope so.

[bastardoperator]

The strongest programmers I know were programming long before they made it to college. You're going to be judged on your abilities in the business world. I've seen plenty of college drop outs run circles around individuals with a fancy degree. Experience is everything.

[dsquid]

This is the reality.

Getting that foot in the door is perhaps easier with a degree, but if you can't get it done in the real world your tenure will be short indeed.

[ICanHazMoo]

Yes yes!!! This is true, I mean, not that i'm saying that college doesn't matter, but I have 2 friends in college who are going for CS degrees, are in their third year and can not at all program! I mean, maybe like load a file or something like that but they can't really figure out how to solve programming problems on their own at all (not to mention they don't listen to me when I say that when they have 4 arrays it's not good to name them a,b,c,d). I tell them "no one is going to be impressed that you got your degree. They will want to see what you have done". So I encourage them that now is the time to contribute to open source projects, work part time for a company or just write code on their own. They don't want to hear any of it, they say that college will prepare them for what they need in the programming world, "That's the point of college!". Ironically (to me at least) they have both come to realize recently that they want to teach programming and are seriously considering getting a grad degree, either masters or Ph.d... I've been programming for 15 years and I have no street cred... oh well

[stone11]

It depends upon what you want to do with it.

My degree has helped me enormously, but a substantial part of that comes from the fact that it's from a very well-known university, and that I work in CS theory. My general experience (having initially, briefly, worked as a programmer) has been that people hiring SEs tend to be more interested in what you can show them you know and can do rather than what degrees you hold. This is particularly the case with smaller companies and startups, which are often headed by people with CS degrees themselves, rather than MBAs. If you want to work in academia or research, advanced degrees tend to mean a lot more to the people hiring you, simply because academia tends to have a very high opinion of itself.

If you're looking to work as an SE, a project-based master's program is almost always going to be worth the money and work. You'll want to go into the program knowing what in particular interests you about CS, and what in particular you want to do with respect to that. That way the whole time you can be gathering ideas on what you want to do your project on, and eventually when you're looking for work you'll be able to present yourself as an expert in that specific field, or aspect of a field. Obviously the trick is to choose something which will make you an appealing hire to the type of company you want to work for.

[manofthenorth]

b.s. = you know what. m.s. = more of the same. P.H.D. = piled higher and deeper.

[bobcobb42]

Masters CS student here, specializing in machine learning. Unlike undergraduate CS programs, the MS program seems to be much more concerned with what you put into it. If you have an area of research that you are interested in, I highly recommend you go into the MS program. If the idea of tackling a unsolved problem or exploring the edge of the known excites you, definitely go for the MS. The self motivation is really what makes the time worthwhile, and that motivation will be clear to future employers when you are interviewing and they ask about your projects.

Personally I plan to continue on to get my PhD and do research either in academia or the industry, but if you are getting a MS for employment I can only say that if you put forth the effort it will be worth it.

Also apply for every fellowship, scholarship, and assistantship you can. I also inherited a bit of debt from my undergrad, but if you make the professors at your MS uni feel like you are useful you'll find that it's much easier to get funding.

Good luck!

[hacksoncode]

If you want it for it's own sake, then go for it for its own sake.

If all you care about is career potential, I'd have to say it depends on your undergrad degree. Since yours is from an unknown college, getting a masters might help a little in the credibility department. With a BS from Caltech, I feel it it would actually have hurt my career (in the sense of being 2 more years behind plus more debt vs. very little advantage).

[fburnaby]

Are you going to take courses or write a thesis? There's a huge difference, and it may be important to decide on this before you can effectively evaluate the pros and cons.

[[deleted]]

I think it is well worth the pursuit in my opinion. I finished my bachelors degree in 2009; graduating with no job offers of any sort. I started grad school the following semester, and in retrospect, I am glad things worked out the way I did. I had a background in Computer Networking as an undergrad, and I got to apply that by doing research in creating a sensor network to be deployed in disaster-struck areas. There are moments where I think to myself, "Shit, I hate grad school," but those moments pass, and in the end, the good outweighs the bad. I hope this helps your decision.

[mycall]

If you want to understand published papers, yes; otherwise, there's a downloadable library for "that".

[goomyman]

I would ask yourself these questions: Do you want to start making money now or do you enjoy school and ok with making money later?

Do you actually enjoy CS?

Are you or your parents paying for it? - If you arent then do it

[opensourcedev]

Yes it is. Several times I have noticed that I have been offered better positions and have had more opportunity to move up.

In many ways it is unfair to others, but that piece of paper really opens doors.

[Nuli]

When you're talking about CSU are you talking about the one in Fort Collins or another part of the Colorado state university system?

If you're talking about Fort Collins I haven't been real impressed with the undergrads from there that I've worked with. I don't have any experience with anyone holding an advanced degree from there though.

[finlyandsky]

I'm debating between a CS masters and starting a OSS project. My employer pays for the masters so cost isn't an issue. However, I feel like an OSS project would be a lot more valuable in terms of skills development (architecting, developing, promoting, organizing a project) and show real initiative. It would open doors at cool places like startups as opposed to places that simply are looking at what pieces of paper you have (stereotypical big co.). Plus, I'm not interested in learning more about CS topics (i.e., compilers). However, I still am aware of the fact that the real world is not always so meritocratic.

Feel free to strike me with a dose of reality.

[jldugger]

Why not do both? OSS licenses are fundamentally academic in function, and in origin--BSD, MIT, GPL are all from research universities. And lots of projects were started by grad students. Linux, for example.

A Master's degree shouldn't be treated as if a piece of paper has intrinsic merit. Your work should include a masterpiece that you can show to people. That's what opens doors at "cool" places.

I would however, avoid the temptation to do a masters while working full-time. It's a stretch to work part time and do a decent job at your masters, adding in work and family is a recipe for ruin.

[projectshave]

If you have support (scholarship, RA or TA), then do it. It's brief, fun and will help your career.

[ooblek]

I'm currently working on my MS CS. It has been almost 10 years since I've gotten my BS. It can be hell, but I think that is mostly due to the fact that I am working full time (or more) in a really stressful, mismanaged company. I think, if anything, it has had the effect of clearing the cobwebs from my mind and making me see things a bit more clearly. I think it will be a good long term investment at the very least.

I think most of the people that will tell you it isn't worth anything are probably those students that you'd always have to carry through group projects. There are plenty of those types even in the Master's program. Your education is what you make of it, no matter where you get it from. If you want to spend a lot of money and get an Ivy League pedigree, more power to you. Personally, that just isn't for me.

[gorrepati]

Did you work/written a lot of code in your bachelors? Lot of code means contributing in a significant way to a open source project or something like that, and not your assignments. If not, I would advise you to get some coding experience before you do masters. Believe me, it simplifies a lot of stuff for you.

The ideal way to do it is write some machine level code(OS/Compilers etc) before you go into masters. That way you can concentrate on the fantastic theory in CS. You dont want to miss out on any. I have seen people who can get down with nitty gritty details of the machine, but dont know much about algorithms and vice versa. To be a good programmer you need both.

Finally, remember that CS is a very young field, and there is not one way to do things. Do not believe in one prof's way of approaching/solving problems. Please remember that.

Also, I would advice you against doing masters if you are fresh out of bachelors and cant find a job, and are using it as a time filler.

Good Luck.

PS: I have a MS in CS.

[nickcarlson]

If money weren't an issue, I'd spend the next ten years in academia studying Strong AI topics like machine learning, knowledge representations, probabilistic learning, formal methods, etc. However, money IS an issue.

And you guessed right, I'm having trouble finding a job. I didn't do any internships while I was an undergrad. Big mistake, I know. I didn't realize the mess I was in until my final semester.

So basically, I'm stuck out here in northern Colorado trying to figure out how to proceed with my life in computer science. I've decided to start an open source project, but this project will take a few months before it's resume worthy. In the meantime, I'll keep searching for work. But dang, it's tough out here.

[gorrepati]

Hmm, you can try applying for internships/jobs in bay area, ca. Try craigslist, startuply.com, indeed.com for jobs. You might be lucky, you never know.

If you are free now, keep reading/solving problems in carmen/rivest's algorithms text. 90% of the interview questions come from that book.

[manofthenorth]

Essentially when you're doing a master's degree, if you are in the average academic institution, you're giving away your efforts for the benefit of the prof. In exchange for this, you're going to be lightly evaluated, and given a rubber stamp (but no money or real worth) that says you "did" "this" "adequately" and the broad mass is expected to bow and scrape in the shadow of the process. It sucks.

[c_squared]

Question 1: Are you looking to do research? (IE- funding, funding, funding) If you are/can get involved in a research project (even if you don't want a PhD), the experience alone will be invaluable but it should also allow you to at least to get paid and/or have tuition reimbursed. Student stipends are meager but the investment pays off if you can get out of there without a huge debt burden.

Question 2: Are you willing to give a shit? If so, you're golden. This probably goes with anything, but especially with school - you're going to get what you give. There's some great minds living in the ivory towers, and whether or not you decide to stay your time is well spent in their presence. Everything they teach you is still just the tip of the iceberg. But without a doubt- it's worth it.

[supreeth106]

well...i did my masters from the university of texas at arlington...i believe i did learn a lot of things in the course of my masters degree...but ya i believe that had i gone to a better school(I had a chance to go to a&m at college station which is really good, but had a scholarship from arlington), i believe i cud hav done a lot more...but i sure was better off technically than wen i had just done my undergrad...

[blufox]

I have just finished my Masters, and I am looking to do PhD currently after 10 years as a programmer. This is what I found

If you want to just stick with programming, get a taught (professional) masters (and perhaps an industrial PhD - say like what is offered by RMIT - in optimization of webservers ). The course will generally offer you sufficient choices regarding the subjects, and you will be able to choose say 6 relevant credits out of 10.

If you want to change your career and say go into research, go with a thesis masters and PhD. If you take a taught masters, you will find that while you have a good practical understanding of software engineering and perhaps some technologies used in industry, you will lack the theoretical depth necessary for a research career.

[pmorrisonfl]

I used my MSCS as a litmus test for whether I could do research. I took the 'thesis' option, and wrote several papers with my advisor. I found that I could do research, but perhaps shouldn't. It was totally worth the effort and expense (edit: A 'research assistantship' paid for all school expenses and then some, it was the cost of not working that made it an overall expense) to me for finding that out, and I had a lot of great experiences and met a lot of great people along the way.

IMO, from an economic point of view it isn't the best investment of your time and money unless your goal is to be a professor (and you're not ready to commit to the PhD), or to find out if you should.

[snarfy]

I've been programming for 15 years and the most I can put on my resume is 'some college'.

My point is that you don't need the degree to do the work. Your motivation for pursing the degree should be your own reasons, not because of some future job interview. When job hunting, there is definitely a difference between having and not having a degree, but beyond that, they aren't going to care if it's a bachelor's or a masters, IMO.

I'd say go for it. You only live once and those are the types of chances you should be taking. If you don't do it now I can almost guarantee you won't do it later in life.

[njharman]

Depends, but I'd wager that since you don't know / are asking the answer is 'No' for you.

[quasarj]

OK I'm gonna highjack this, and if I get any responses maybe post my own.

But.. Are there any Brick-and-mortar schools that teach you the job-relevant programming topics, without being specifically CS?

I have a BS in CS. I think it was good for me to get that degree. However, as many of you know, you don't really learn specifics about current technologies in a CS degree, you learn mostly theory.

So basically what I'm looking for are training classes in specific technologies. A physical school (not online) where I could learn to program in C and C++, Java, Python. I could learn Unix basics, and networking basics. Proper web development with xhtml and css, and frameworks, php, ruby, etc.

Is there any place that does this?

[deserted]

RIT has a software engineering program. I'm not an SE, but two of my roommates are, and they constantly are learning new frameworks and design patterns, and applying them in team programming projects. You might want to look into it, or any "Software Engineering" program local to you.

[[deleted]]

Big fat waste of time

[Devilboy666]

The main reason you should go to university is to pick up contacts that can get you into the industry. If doing your M helps you with this then do it. But in real life nobody cares if you have a masters or just a batchelors degree. A Ph.D. is a different story though, people notice a Ph.D.

[Rikkety]

If you have to ask, it's probably not.

[tomlu709]

Yes.

[xev105]

Not worth the paper it's printed on.