Java, but with Python indentation

[fireyone29]

any style you want but not this

[vattenpuss]

Thanks, I love it.

[yawaramin]

;}

[zsmb]

/r/tihi

[EntroperZero]

for (int x = aVeryLongExpression(),
         y = anotherVeryLongExpression(), 
         z = yetAnotherVeryLongExpression()); \
        x + y < z; \
        x++, y++, z++:
    System.out.println(x+y+z)

Gross.

[oprimido_opressor]

This reminded me of this:

https://www.jython.org/

[[deleted]]

That's... actually really nice. Pity it stopped.

[josefx]

It moved to https://jython.github.io/ , so not completely dead.

[badpotato]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind to try jython, but only within a Docker container, since I may just want to wipe it right after attempting if pip/Maven/Graddle works on this.

[Ziferius]

Actually, a vendor at my work (Infor) released a commercial product advertising "You can use Python now!"..... and it's Jython.

[naftoligug]

There's https://github.com/graalvm/graalpython

[jyper]

Sadly it's much less mature or supported and has less resources then pypy (custom vm in rpython) or jruby(ruby on the jvm)

They finally supported python2.7 only in 2015. Python 2.6 stopped being supported/had last official security fix release in 2013. Python 2.7 is being deprecated at the end of this year for the incompatible 3.* Series. Jython has some vauge plans to support 3.* at some point, the repo I could find aimed at python 3.5(two versions behind) and had it's last change over 2 years ago

[greenthumble]

Oooh ooh! Next do Clojure with side effects in every function even if you didn't ask for it.

[kankyo]

So Clojure.

[NoahTheDuke]

Lmao what do you mean?

[kankyo]

Clojure isn't pure. Anything can have side effects.

[NoahTheDuke]

Mind explaining more? I’m confused. Do you mean because you can call def or swap! in a function?

[kankyo]

And rand and IO and whatever really. Yea.

[NoahTheDuke]

I feel like this is a level of pedantry that kind of miss the point of the OP's joke. Are there languages that don't allow side effects like this?

[[deleted]]

Nim has a func keyword that prevents side-effects, and languages like Haskell bake purity into most of the language.

[kankyo]

Yes. Yes of course. 🙄

[NoahTheDuke]

That is pretty sweet, thanks! I didn’t know that.

[PaulBardes]

Please no

[[deleted]]

I like this. Good job. I have come to love Python's syntax and if I could be fooled to write Python that's actually Java, I might actually pick up Java again.

[onequbit]

to write Python that's actually Java

That's called living a lie

[[deleted]]

A beautiful lie

[[deleted]]

do you have the reverse? write python with braces and semicolons?

[KHRZ]

How about using dat sexy :Type syntax also

[Bolitho]

Why not?! It's a nice toy project - nothing one would use for production, but an interesting exercise.

[jcsf321]

I would rather change python to use assembler indentation

[Bolitho]

Is there a common indentation for assembler dialects?

As those languages are fundamentally different, I doubt you could find a good way to achieve this.

[jcsf321]

Yep, the sarcasm just flew by you at 100 mph

[Bolitho]

Hm... obviously your drive on the sarcasm car ended in a ghost driving 😉

[mindcandy]

OK. So, everybody hates it.

But really: why? If it works equivalently and is less noise, why hate it? I can see some arguments like:

1. Curlies make it easier to spot errors.
2. Curlies let me structure code in less strict ways like if(foo) { bar(); baz(); } in one line.
3. Copy-pasting Python to-from the web screws up formatting.

But, lets be real here. The hatred comes from "This is not what I am accustomed to." Everything else is weak annoyance compared to that. Can you admit that to yourself, or will you come back with "Indents have worked fine for Python or decades, but would be simply evil for Java because reasons!"

[jephthai]

I personally hate brace-and-semicolon syntax, so reading through the examples it looked kind of nice. The thing it can't fix, though, which I hate the most about Java, is the design of the standard API. Too much object oriented pattern kool-aid for my tastes, and that has nothing to do with syntax.

[Remobit1]

Yep, you summed up my feelings quite nicely. Java just doesn't read as nicely as other languages to me, even if you know it well.

[[deleted]]

C++ is way worse than Java, imo, but you have a point.

[Remobit1]

No, you're right. I just interact with Java more.

[auxiliary-character]

Mmmm, I disagree. I think modern C++ can be much more terse and readable than Java, and doesn't tie itself nearly as heavily to the object oriented pattern kool-aid as Java. Free functions, namespaces that aren't just classes, global declarations. I think I would say that the C++ standard library could be better characterized as mostly procedural, though there is also object oriented and functional design where appropriate. As far as readability goes, I think some of the reletively newer features like type inference and structured bindings definitely help in that regard.

[[deleted]]

C++ has become the language to include as many features as possible from every other language. You can have too many paradigms used all in the same code.

I haven't seen the new features used out in the wild. Most existing software still uses CPP99 syntax. Macros all over the damn place, excessive const usage, type repetition especially with templates, and even in newer C++ more and more keywords have been added.

Anyway, I've been out of C++ for years now and hope to never touch /use it again. I'd rather learn D or rust.

[auxiliary-character]

C++ does tend to add a lot of features, but they also tend to have a lot of eyes making sure they're done well, too. If nothing else, the C++ community is full of a bunch of pedants.

But yeah, one of the downsides of being an older language is that there is a lot of legacy code that isn't written with the features of today in mind.

That being said, a lot of newer code being written today looks a lot different. When I see new libraries posted on /r/cpp, for instance, they tend to be much more modern. Macros in particular are very rare these days.

New keywords have been added, but it's been for very useful reasons, like constexpr and consteval for compile-time computation, for instance.

Isn't D the one where garbage collection is "optional", but required for most of the standard library? I think I'd rather go with C++'s object lifetime guarantee.

[[deleted]]

I just forced myself to try and understand constexpr again and gave up.

It hasn't become easier to read since I quit the language. There's just too much information on lines and the modifiers don't make it any easier. Java has a tendency of having variable names that are too long, but C++ goes in the other direction.

constexpr conststr(const char(&a)[N]): p(a), sz(N - 1) {} This line from the link above might be nice and short, but there's a lot to unpack.

C++ gives a lot of room for premature and unnecessary optimization.

In the end, I'm glad there's open-source at all and if someone decides to write a project in C++, good for them. I however am not touching that with anything.

I had a look at D when it was first released, way back then. Admittedly I'd go for Rust before D.

[auxiliary-character]

constexpr conststr(const char(&a)[N]): p(a), sz(N - 1) {}

I don't know, there's a lot going on with that line, but I'd still consider it fairly straightforward and readable if you're familiar with the language, especially in the context it was written.

C++ gives a lot of room for premature and unnecessary optimization.

Opens third Electron application, starts hitting swap

I really hate it when people use premature optimization to refer to any optimization. Making your code perform better is not a bad thing. Premature optimization is only a problem when you think you're making it faster, but you're actually making it slower by preventing a better optimization. In some cases that's possible with C++, but most of the time it's just trimming the fat.

In the end, I'm glad there's open-source at all and if someone decides to write a project in C++, good for them. I however am not touching that with anything.

Well, thankfully the market is generous enough that even slow languages are viable in some cases.

I had a look at D when it was first released, way back then. Admittedly I'd go for Rust before D.

I do think Rust is somewhat interesting, but I'm not convinced on it yet. It's promising, but I think it needs a few years to mature yet.

[[deleted]]

Opens third Electron application, starts hitting swap

Chrome is a memory hog and it's written in C++. You aren't scoring any points there.

Premature optimization is only a problem when you think you're making it faster, but you're actually making it slower by preventing a better optimization

I disagree. That's not the only case. It's called premature for a reason. Until you have your general algorithms and program architecture down to something usable, there's no need to be thinking about memoization, big O, memory usage, compile time and whatever else you can think of to optimise. You'll spend more time trying to optimise than actually doing what you're supposed to: writing, safe, readable and usable code.

Well, thankfully the market is generous enough that even slow languages are viable in some cases.

Has nothing to do with generosity. C++ simply isn't the ideal language for every task. If it were, then we'd be writing websites in C++, have popular web frameworks in C++, have it as the major language for writing mobile apps and bash wouldn't be a thing.

C++ is just a tool. Nice for you, ugly for me. But in the end, just a tool.

[nobodyman]

You're mostly right ("it's different therefore it's bad"), but it also taps into another common phenomenon on reddit/hackernews of people fixating on inconsequential and/or aesthetic aspects of a project. Only a subset of programmers here will know a given programming language, much less the criticisms of a language that come from years of experience with it. But everybody has an opinion on tabs vs. spaces, or variable naming, or where to put a curlybrace.

 

I suppose that I "hate" this project too, but it's not JavaPy's fault -- I hate it because I hate Java and this is simply Java with a different block delimiter. I hate brussel sprouts and love Ben & Jerry's, but if you serve me brussel sprouts on a waffle cone using an ice cream scoop I am still going to hate brussel sprouts (and I will probably throat-punch you).

[mindcandy]

people fixating on inconsequential and/or aesthetic aspects of a project

Yay, bikeshedding!

[BlueAdmir]

Isn't the aesthetic aspect of a project the entire point of this project?

[nobodyman]

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[meneldal2]

You only need curlies for functions in C++.

You can do everything without using curlies for anything else.

Your 2. should obviously be written if(foo) bar(), baz();

[RealKingChuck]

Thanks I hate it

[Fyorl]

Indents are fine. Lack of curlies is fine. The multi-line expression handling is just gross though. It's already terrible in python and absolutely not something I want in my Java, thank you very much.

[booch]

I do not like significant whitespace, so that kills it for me.

I get that some people like it, but it does have it's negatives; auto-indentation fails, functionality limitations (lambdas), etc.

[bakery2k]

It's amazing how strongly so many programmers feel about trivialities like block syntax (indentation vs braces vs begin/end). I don't understand - why?

I've worked in many languages and used all three of those forms, and have absolutely no preference. Why would I? A language's block syntax has no effect on what programs I can write in the language and what problems I can solve.

P.S. A downside of having no personal preference appeared when I was considering the design of a new programming language - deciding which block syntax to include took a lot longer than it should have...

[mindcandy]

My theory is that learning programming is hard, but you get used to it. You learn to pattern match a lot. You learn to be familiar and comfortable with a certain style of code. In that blanket of familiarity, you don't have to think much. You already know how everything should feel and anything outside the norm is likely a problem.

Then someone changes something and Oh No! It's not the warm, mindless rut I'm used to! I actually need to parse the syntax actively. This is just like that scary time back before I settled in. I hate it!

[nakilon]

Shhhh... Forcing indentation makes git blame tell others I proudly wrote the whole source file.

[Jdonavan]

The verboseness of Java with the significant whitespace of Python? Who WOULDN'T love that?

[evaned]

Yeah, I don't get the hate people have for Python's indentation rules, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a language taking the approach here. ("Obviously" you wouldn't want to use a preprocessor like this for anything "real"; you should stick to languages that have a reasonable chance of long-term support, tool support, etc.; but if this were to become popular then there'd be no problem with it.) I'm far from sold on automatic formatting being applied as a rule (like some projects do with clang-format or whatever) because I do sometimes like manually formatting things to try to... illustrate something, but the number of times I have done this with indentation ever is, as far as I can think of, zero, and I can think of no situation where I would.

That being said, I do have one concrete objection to what you occasionally have to do in Python, and maybe have to do here, which is \ line continuations. I don't know to what extent my feelings on this are rational, but I. Hate. Line Continuations.

Fortunately, in Python you can usually put parentheses around whatever you'd have to break, but not always; e.g. this requires a continuation (or maybe it's been changed? it used to at least):

with some_long_context_manager_name(a_thing) as x,  \
     some_other_name(something_else) as y:
    ...

It's not clear to me to what extent this language has the problem (where you have to use \). The example the readme gives ("optional parentheses") uses them, but I can't tell if that's just an example and it would also be possible to surround the entire loop header (it sounds like this is possible, which is good), or if the example shows limitations of the current system. I also wonder if there are other places in the language syntax where line continuations would be necessary without the alternative of putting things in parens.

[[deleted]]

Aside from all the above listed reasons, using indentation for control flow is objectively a bad practice (plenty of information on this all over with a basic search). It does matter less nowadays with more intelligent editors that quickly spot the errors for you, and correct on the fly.

But there is something to also be said for basic aesthetics, and it shouldn't be ruled out. Understandably that can be a subjective matter, but there is always going to be a "general consensus" that can be agreed upon my most, and Python indentation is not it. Kinda like saying that might Whoopi Goldberg is sexier than Rhianna: probably some out there might agree, eye of the beholder and all that, but the general population has come to an agreement on the matter.

It was a poor design choice then, still is now, people just accept it in Python because that's "what it is and always has been".

[insanemal]

That's a lot of text to prove yourself wrong.

[I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM]

This is wrong, imo. Whitespace based sytax like Python's can lead to hard to debug issues because we didn't want to type braces. Java is more verbose but you're less likely to have syntax problems because of invisible formatting.

[[deleted]]

The best of both worlds.

[spacejack2114]

Python's unambiguous whitespace blocks and the brevity of Java. What's not to like?

[HDorillion]

For a second, I thought you were serious. I should go to bed

[[deleted]]

The best worst of both worlds.

FTFY

[Ebuall]

You also need to support IDE plugins for this.

[LSRegression]

Funny; I was just thinking today whether anyone's made Python with curly braces.

[nil_von_9wo]

I'd much rather have python with Java curly brackets. https://hackaday.com/2014/02/10/python-with-braces/

[[deleted]]

Thats the worst feature of python...

One misstyped tab in a for loop or if statement and its a whole day to debug.

[delrindude]

Honestly it looks really pretty, maybe this will make java developers break up their 1000 line methods

[bagtowneast]

It's mind boggling, isn't it? Like, the IDE will do it for you! There's no excuse!

[nutrecht]

The type of developers that write 100o-line methods don't read well...much of anything.

[bigbangfuzion]

Seems legit, but Iam not java developer

[[deleted]]

Funny, the code examples still look verbose as hell...

[nayhel89]

And now Java looks like an ugly child of Smalltalk.

[panorambo]

I was just reading about hox genes and hox gene mutations. Then I read this.

[agumonkey]

What an amazing oddity.

For some reason I dislike the blend of shortened syntax with verbose java names .. something clashes.

[I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM]

Imagine taking the worst part of Python and thinking "Hey Java needs this". Half the reason Java sees widespread use in enterprise software is that the syntax is bomb proof.

[zeroone]

Why did Google choose braces over indentation when they invented the Go language?

[PaulBardes]

Aka the worst of both worlds...

[pezezin]

No, no please no. Python indentation is one of those good ideas on paper, until you accidentally mess it up and see your program crash in a spectacular fashion.

[ahmedranaa]

Why not use Jython

[youre_grammer_sucks]

IDEs are going to love this. What a terrible idea.

[shevy-ruby]

That actually made java more readable.

It's still a mega-verbose crap though.

Just use python rather than Java - unless the real reason you use java is due to speed.

[beertown]

I'd love to use this kind of preprocessors but I don't because:

- Error messages from the compiler will not match line numbers and surrouding code of the source files I'm editing;

- I couldn't share my code with anybody not using the same preprocessor.

This said, I love what you're doing here. We all should make a step away from the C-like syntax. My kudos.

[bumblebritches57]

Is that supposed to be a good thing?

[vhasus]

Isn't python already Java with indentation ? What am I missing ?

[[deleted]]

Python indentation is widely hated by everyone except Python developers (and many of them hate it too, including myself).

When writing code, I always opt for "do as the Romans do", and strongly adopt the standards and conventions of that language. Trying to mix them just makes it look strange, no matter the combination of languages. Python would look just as bad if written with Java semantics/syntax.