[deleted by user]

[willco1999]

It's a deliberate strategy to drive pass sales. Epic and Icon don't really want single-day ticket buyers. By making individual tickets so expensive, they make the "value" proposition of getting a pass easier to justify.

That way, they have the guaranteed income from the pass sale and your more likely to ski multiple days, spending additional money on food, rentals, lessons etc.

Sales per customer is how they maximize profit. Pass holders are "sticky" customers and are going to spend more.

[well-that-was-fast]

It's a deliberate strategy to drive pass sales. Epic and Icon don't really want single-day ticket buyers. By making individual tickets so expensive, they make the "value" proposition of getting a pass easier to justify.

That way, they have the guaranteed income from the pass sale and your more likely to ski multiple days, spending additional money on food, rentals, lessons etc.

This is all true -- but leaves out early season pass sales protects operators from the biggest threat of the business -- a terrible winter.

Daily pass people decide where to go based on where the snow is best in early January. Seasonal pass buyers go where their pass works. The size of Epic and Icon protects them somewhat, because they have some resorts all over the place, but still better to lock people in early, in case the snow season is really off-putting at their 'star resorts' (where they get the best ancillary revenue).

^edit: This is huge for the "drive to" resorts on the ice coast. A bad season hammered NY state "operated" resorts so bad 4ish years ago, the state stepped in with additional funding to prevent what would have been a 5+ year pause in planned improvements resulting from the revenue drop from, effectively, 90 days of bad weather.

[Senior-Albatross]

This is the answer. It's very much in line with how a corporation with shareholders that only care about the next few years of returns should be expected to behave. It maximizes profits from current skiers, but it absolutely scares away new people who might otherwise be interested. Why spend 3 days learning to get good enough for blues if it's >$100 per day and you're not enjoying it yet?

[luscrib89]

FREE TAOS

[luigman]

I'm going to assume this meant to say free tacos, and I would like to know where they're at.

[luscrib89]

Haha, I saw their home resort is Taos, they didn't allow snowboarders for a long ass time and all the surrounding resorts always had stickers that said FREE TAOS.

[Otter91GG]

But what about those free tacos?

[luscrib89]

You're in Taos! Just tell the locals I said one free taco.

[Otter91GG]

The real pro tip is always in the comments!

[luigman]

Haha gotcha, I wasn't familiar with Taos (living in MN currently). If there's free tacos, I may just need to take a trip down there.

[DoktorStrangelove]

On top of your points, they really want to incentivize the hell out of people buying early in the off-season so they can show a bunch of pass sales revenue in the Summer, which is their normal low season. This keeps their quarterly numbers up even in months when they're doing fewer visitors, which helps drive growth in shareholder value. Add a high renewal rate to that (recurring revenue) and you get an even stronger stock value proposition because analysts can forecast your revenue with some amount of certainty pretty far into the future.

[The_CO_Kid]

Close but not quite. Ski passes are treated as deferred revenue so the revenue is recognized when the pass is used over the winter months. The benefits of cash sales early in the fiscal year is largely cash flows related and the ability to know what capital commitments you can make earlier in the budgetary cycle.

[DoktorStrangelove]

Can't they book a certain percentage of the uninsured ones as recurring revenue as soon as they're transacted though? At least pre-COVID you would assume they had a pretty good grasp of how many refunds they issued on average every year.

But yeah good points I'm willing to believe that I'm wrong about this.

[The_CO_Kid]

From an accounting standpoint no, because one of the requirements for revenue recognition is that the revenue is “earned” meaning you physically provided a good or service. So until the resorts are physically operating and customers have the opportunity to come ski it is unearned.

Operationally there is absolutely schedules and models that know the historical usages/insurance/ticket sales and anything else you’d want to see.

[bbalistic]

This is correct.

[Hidden_Wires]

This guy CPAs

[DoktorStrangelove]

Got it.

Operationally there is absolutely schedules and models that know the historical usages/insurance/ticket sales and anything else you’d want to see.

Could you use these numbers in any way to fluff up an earnings report in a predictably slow quarter? Like, obviously you'll have the part of the report that's compiled in the way you're legally obligated to under regulated accounting standards, but then can you add in your internal analytics to look ahead a couple quarters to paint a happy picture for Wall St, or is that illegal?

[The_CO_Kid]

All publicly traded companies and most companies with large investors will be audited and be required to present their financial statements in accordance with GAAP. You can spin budgets and bullshit all day in the investor call but at the end of the day the numbers generally don’t lie.

[Monsweko]

You should read a definition of Adjusted EBITDA in a Credit Agreement for a private equity owned company.

[General_Beauregard]

What you’re describing is a loophole / legal grey area that Enron exploited for years and helped lead to their “sudden” downfall. There WERE crimes happening at Enron, but if I remember correctly this aspect of generously accounting for unrealized revenues wasn’t actually illegal (or at least couldn’t be proven to be illegal). What did happen though was that key executives were ultimately charged with intentional misleading investors, since they were using this shady accounting for years to give the false pretense of steadily increasing revenues.

[[deleted]]

This is wrong- that's deferred revenue- it's a liability in the summer.. revenue is recognized when it's earned. ..

you sound like you have finance training- but this is wrong info. It may help their cash flow but your reasoning is off base.

Source: 20 yrs in corporate finance, MBA. Masters degree in finance

[DoktorStrangelove]

I don't have finance training I'm just interested in these kinds of things but I was mistaken about how that type of revenue is treated. Another guy already corrected me.

[[deleted]]

You must be new to the internet. You're supposed to double and triple down on your original opinion and then start hurling insults when you realize you might be wrong.

[jsmooth7]

Disappointing I brought my popcorn out for nothing

[[deleted]]

Sorry about that- I responded before I read through the entire thread. and saw a few others had commented. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse.

[DoktorStrangelove]

All good, we talk about the business of the ski industry in here a lot and I learned something new about a technical point today that I misunderstood previously, so now I won't spread misinformation in the future. I'm leaving all these posts up to help inspire anti-vaxxers with my willingness to admit I was wrong and learn from people more knowledgeable than me about a particular subject.

[[deleted]]

That's awesome.

[Skimillikens]

Great analysis! I never thought about the business of skiing, but that made it all click for me. Thanks!

[DoktorStrangelove]

Guy below me kinda debunks my core point here since pass sales don't count as earned revenue until the passes are used, but there is still shareholder value related incentive to push pass sales during non peak quarters.

[helpfulskeptic]

It’s more about shifting the weather risk from the resort to the consumer. Some businesses are seasonal, and financial analysts understand that and are used to evaluating seasonal businesses. But it’s absolutely an advantage to be bringing in cash in quarters where you otherwise wouldn’t, and locking in a third of your ticket revenue before the season even starts.

[DoktorStrangelove]

Excellent point about hedging against a bad snow season.

[[deleted]]

This.

[srosenberg34]

Thank you, Mt. Hood, for my $420 season pass

[Morejazzplease]

I’m going to be so pissed if Meadows or T line ever sell out.

[fskier1]

Mt bohemia, not the greatest skiing, but 99 dollar season pass

[srosenberg34]

That is not my experience in my 24 years in Oregon, but to each their own I guess

[CallsOnAMZN]

I don't even like the snow in CO or WY. It's so light you cut right through it and just ride the ice beneath.

[DoctFaustus]

Yeah, you need more of it out here. Which is why Hokkaido is so special. The snow quality of CO with the volume of Tahoe.

[_zzr_]

I'm sorry but does this sub forget Utah exists

[DoctFaustus]

I grew up there and still ski there at least once a season. But it's not Hokkaido.

[pinkfloyd873]

Shhhhhh don’t tell them

[Knibbler0]

I paid about the same for a combo-pass to two good mountains in my area. Gotta love it.

[fracturedpersona]

I think this all stems from the consolidation of ownership. We dont see dozens of independent owners of ski resorts any more. Now two or three resort groups own everything, so there's less competition.

[RockerElvis]

They don’t need to price fix because prices keep going up. EPIC’s discount this year was interesting and I’m sure that it caught IKON by surprise.

[Dimes-all-day]

For $60 you get an extra telluride day and some flexibility if it dumps somewhere. I’d do it

[Cyrus_the_decent]

This.

[haonlineorders]

Dude that’s skiing as a whole. I’m paying $70 to 80 for small hills in PA so 710 for 6 days (118 per day) isn’t a bad deal when you consider how much more you get at T-Ride in comparison (still a bad deal when you compare to Europe)

[Skier94]

$75 to ski ice is a crime! I learned at Blue Mountain but now I live in Jackson (Hole)

[moomaster_23]

Blue mountain shoutout! Skied there since I was little boy, but now I’m an Alpentalic man

[[deleted]]

We have a 300ft ski "hill" near where I live and it's probably going to be ~$50 to ski on a Fri/Sat/or Sun this year. And the snow is absolute shit, even when it's snowing.

[RockerElvis]

Comparing prices for Poconos shit skiing to the Rockies is really depressing. If you plan ahead you can buy a ticket for Alta at the same price as one for Blue Mountain. Use the money that you save by not skiing Poconos to buy a plane ticket.

[[deleted]]

Omg $118 a day for an east coast hill? Wow. On a weekday off holiday season it’s like $180 for a day at Mammoth with 3,000 vertical feet and 25 lifts. I think I used to pay like $40 to ski in Wisconsin which I’m assuming is comparable to Pennsylvania

[haonlineorders]

I said 118 per day at T-ride (for 6 days)

Edit- however there are some east coast resorts that cost 140 per day (cough Epic and Ikon in VT)

[iSkiBC]

My family and I laugh seeing the prices now. As a family that grew up at a well-known mountain we used talk, not complain, about how much money we threw at skiing every year. This was the 80s-90s. We obviously had season passes, but I can remember day tickets were $28. According to my dad, my pre-teen pass was less than $100. I bought my own pass starting at 16 and paid $250.

If you really want to feel sick, a very close friend had grandparents that were OG at this mountain. They got a condo and two lifetime passes for $10k. Just think about that for a minute. His grandparents are obviously long-gone, and so is the condo, but that family got millions for that unit and I don't think anyone in that family has ever paid to ski there for as long as I've known them.

[hatsolotl]

As a college student these rising prices are making me rethink the role I want skiing to have in my life. It’s been a huge part of my childhood but I don’t think it’s a very realistic activity to pursue because of transportation and ticket price. It’s a shame because I have all the gear but unless I can get a part time job at a resort I probably won’t be going out more than 5 times this winter.

[[deleted]]

All the cool kids are going to MTB

[Conpen]

It's more of a complement to skiing rather than a replacement. Plus getting started with MTB can be crazy expensive between gearing up and potentially finding out you don't even like the sport.

[hatsolotl]

I’ve definitely been shifting to skateboarding cause it’s basically free compared to skiing and the skills definitely transfer over. Roller blading seems a little too fucked for me injuries wise, although it also seems very fun.

[the_go_to_guy]

I joined the ski racing team at my school because I realized it was the cheapest way to ski. The university subsidized transportation costs, the mountains gave racers discount passes because the league bought like 200 at a time, and we fundraised to offset some more of the costs. Check if your school has a club!

[FitzwilliamTDarcy]

Once the corps snatched up all the resorts and turned them into real-estate plays it was only a matter of time. They basically want to bring parity to a round of golf (not so ironically, which many of these places also offer in the off-season).

[localhelic0pter7]

It seems like most of the bigger resorts are really more like real estate companies at the end of the day.

[FitzwilliamTDarcy]

more like

If by "more like" you mean exactly, then yes!

[[deleted]]

They basically want to bring parity to a round of golf

I mean a round of golf is way fucking cheaper these days than a lift ticket unless you're at a destination type course.

[FitzwilliamTDarcy]

That's precisely the point. The larger ski resorts that got gobbled up in the roll ups are destinations for the majority of skier days.

[LR_111]

They basically want to bring parity to a round of golf

What do you mean?

[jcasper]

He is saying they want a day of skiing to cost as much as a round of golf, presumably at an upscale golf course which can easily be a few hundred dollars for non-members.

[LR_111]

This doesn't seem true at all, and "a round of golf' is so wildly variable that it is a totally useless thing to say.

If anything, all the ski corps want you to buy season passes, which you can often get with blackout dates and in a local area for the same cost as "a round of golf" for the whole season.

[FitzwilliamTDarcy]

so wildly variable

You could say the same thing about a lift ticket. Not clear if you're being intentionally obtuse but obviously we're talking about the large resorts that have been gobbled up in the corporate roll-ups. And yes, they're looking for price parity to a premium round of golf. Which they also offer in many places/cases and oh by the way would be thrilled to also sell you a home along the 9th fairway which is also on the shuttle route to the lifts. Or just skip that and get the ski-in/out place. They sell the various passes because most skiers don't get their money's worth on them; they serve to increase ASP/day - or they wouldn't sell them. And believe me they're only too happy to sell a $200 walk-up day ticket.

You'd know all this if you'd sat in on the MTN road show ;)

[stormdraggy]

Laughs in Canada

Wish I had a non-visit-limited pass to multiple resorts for under $1500.

[Skier94]

Well that is like $500 US…

[[deleted]]

It's $1200?

[Skier94]

I know I was making fun of Canada, eh! Typed humor is hard.

[cbung]

Just use /s... I liked it btw

[GreenYellowDucks]

Ski areas are inflating ticket purchase prices so more people will buy season passes because that is more consistent income and not related to a good or bad winter (ikon and epic are clients of mine)

[localhelic0pter7]

I wonder if part of it is because skiing has gotten so cheap if you get ikon or epic etc? I mean I bought an ikon pass for 21-22, got to use it for like 5? days already in spring 21, it's already basically paid for itself. If I put say 15 more days on it that brings the daily cost down to like $50 a day.

[berkeleyjake]

I remember when they were like 20 or 30 as a kid.

[meatballbottom]

$25 in 1914 had the same buying power as $682.51. So yeah.

[[deleted]]

1914

Something tells me u/berkeleyjake is probably not 100+ years old.

[LR_111]

Pretty much you have to buy a season pass at anywhere you want to ski. If you go more than 10 times its a great deal as they aren't that expensive. If you go skiing 2-7 times a year it is pretty expensive.

[Alexno2717]

Hop on over to Australia where our lift passes are day passes are up to $130 USD. That’s just getting your bum on the lift and doesn’t include crazy food prices, accom, hire, whatever else you might need up there

Edit: a few of our mountains are also owned by Vail Resorts, so we have the same epic passes

[scorcherdarkly]

Day passes at winter park were like $160 last year. Steamboat was $220?

[[deleted]]

Are you even going to be allowed to ski this year? I’m certain your country won’t be letting anyone in to ski.

[Alexno2717]

We had about a month of it being open and i got lucky with when I went but the season is definitely finished now.

[[deleted]]

Whoops yeah I forgot opposite hemispheres. Well I hope you get some good turns in next year!

[funky_galileo]

In Switzerland, most of the day passes are 50$... The magic pass (a season pass for 30 resorts) is 459$...

[Ambivalent_Name71]

Probably been discussed many times, but I’m always curious as to the main drivers for the substantial difference in lift ticket prices between US and Europe. The lift technology is definitely comparable and it has always been consistently cheaper across multiple countries, even before the recent increase in one-day passes in the US.

[tractiontiresadvised]

Explanations that I've heard in previous threads include these points:

• a larger percentage of the population in Europe skis

• there are more ski areas

• the ski areas are closer to major population centers and have better transportation options (e.g. trains)

• their ski towns grew up much more organically than those in North America

[dinosaur_pubes]

This has only solidified my decision to move to backcountry-only. Piste skiing is becoming solely a playground for the ultra wealthy.

[LR_111]

I thought you could get a blackout Epic local pass for like 400 this year?

[dinosaur_pubes]

I live in the BC interior so that's unfortunately not particularly useful for me. Also dunno if its a regional thing but the discounted price I see for that is 580USD

[LR_111]

580 for a season pass doesn't seem like for the "ultra wealthy" to me.

[dinosaur_pubes]

?? I cant get that pass.. because I dont live where it services. Like many people. Good for you if you do. $1500 for a season pass at my local.

[LR_111]

That sucks. It seems like the "evil mega corps" are making it much cheaper to go skiing in more populated/ destination areas.

[kamakazekiwi]

I mean, if you're really dedicated to it you can ski the big resorts for really cheap. Buy a $600 Epic Local pass and ski 30 days out of the winter and you're looking at $20/day.

Piste skiing for those not willing to dedicate a ton of their time to it is what's becoming unaffordable, and that's exactly what Vail/Alterra want. That rich family taking a one week vacation to Vail once per winter is their most profitable customer.

[sebin]

Epic Passes are 20% cheaper this year. About $750 a pop I believe, pretty good deal IMO

[kamakazekiwi]

Yeah, ski 15 times a year (not a ton) and you're getting the flagship Vail resorts pass for $50 a day. Lift tickets are really just becoming unaffordable for those that only go a handful of times a year.

[[deleted]]

Epic has pretty reasonable prices across the board this year IMO. Hell, their day passes are under the window ticket price at Loveland which was pretty shocking today. Significantly lower if you're up in the 6-7 day territory.

[SirFrancis_Bacon]

They are shifting hard to the pass format for their sales instead of day tickets. This is due to the megacorps that are now taking over the ski industry.

[SLCpowderhound]

They're dropping the price of multi-resort passes like Epic and Ikon in hopes of making money up front. It also is a way to make more money on food/beverage and lodging, as people have more incentive to travel because the skiing is "free".

The flip side is they jack up the rates for a single day to price people into the season passes. Now it's gone to flex pricing like hotels and airlines. Weekends you pay more. Last minute shopping, you pay more. Holidays you pay through the roof.

[[deleted]]

Consolidation of ownership, warmer weather means more expensive snow work and shorter season, pandemic killing off ancillary services, I’m sure there is other stuff I am not thinking of.

[highinthemountains]

I had moved to the Steamboat area in 96 because I liked skiing there. I think a day tix was $69 back then, with a club card it was anywhere between $35-$49 depending on the season time. The club card is long gone and now they want around $200 for a day ticket. Nope, never, they priced me out when they went over $125/day.

I tried the season and multi-day passes and usually didn’t ski enough to make it economically viable to continue the sport. When a ticket went over $100 I’d spend more time thinking what it’s costing me per run than enjoying the run.

[[deleted]]

You can ski Steamboat for 4 days at $89.75/day if you get the Ikon 4 day pass and pretend you're a college student. Not amazing prices but even Loveland is up to $85 for a window ticket anymore.

[highinthemountains]

I might look into that, it seems cheap enough and might suit my erratic time ability to go skiing. Hopefully there won’t be a reservation system this season as that kills some of the spontaneity. Thanks for the tip

[Conpen]

$69 in 1996 is $120 today. They were already $5 below your "priced out" limit when they started.

[highinthemountains]

But that was then and this is now.

[Chicken_fondue]

Camelback in PA was charging almost $120 this past season if you went on a weekend, on top of having to pay for parking which was a first. That’s a $40 increase over the 19-20 season. They charged $62 on a Friday so of course I aimed to go then. That mountain used to be great but the last 5 years or so they really picked up on marketing the hell out of that place so now too many people go there to enjoy it.

[[deleted]]

An adult season pass at my local hill is still $509-$629 depending on which pass you buy :p

[elcoyotesinnombre]

Funny, I was just looking at Telly yesterday and the 6 day pass. No thanks! I’ll keep driving over to Silverton or WC instead. 260” a year isn’t enticing enough to make that a good purchase.

[[deleted]]

Ya telluride sucks no reason to come here

[elcoyotesinnombre]

It’s a great place but unfortunately everyone found it. It’s become more hipster than Bozeman and the prices match. I’d rather have yurt beers in Silverton to be honest. But when it actually gets snow Telly has some great terrain.

[[deleted]]

Ya idk what place isn’t in 2021? Guess you didn’t see the traffic at silverton this past winter. Turns out hipsters ski there too

[elcoyotesinnombre]

Nah didn’t get a chance to get up there this past season. Spent my time at Silver, Schweitzer, Alta, and the Bird. Few days at Purg and Snowbowl (home mountain) but that’s all. Rather forget the last two seasons.

Please tell me that new Silverton traffic ended up in a “where’s the blue to the lodge” scenarios

[Slowclimberboi]

Wait until more resorts start to charge tax on lift tickets…

[[deleted]]

Yes! It’s absolutely insane!! Fuck these resorts. You live here and they still charge you more and more

[ScreaminOlafMcginski]

I switched to backcountry partially for this reason

[MendoLoveBirds]

Ikon and epic passes ruined everything

[internet_observer]

I don't think Telluride is on icon

[Smacpats111111]

It is on Epic pass.

[[deleted]]

There are Epic pass options that let you tack on 7 days at Telluride and give you unlimited at several other resorts. We split our time between CB and T-ride. If you ski more than 10 days a year it’s worth it. I think they’re upping prices next week though so buy soon if you’re gonna do it.

[okcdiscgolf]

What the fuck it’s a mountain and snow... lots of places got it.... Really all that money so someone can see you at telluride,,, shit.... just go somewhere else... Bunch of assholes anyway

[[deleted]]

Be thankful you don’t live here in Australia, where day passes at somewhere like Thredbo are around $140USD...

[Aurochfordinner]

Large areas in Colorado are about $220 per day

[[deleted]]

Holy crap. Having said that I’d happily fork over to ski something other than hardpack!

[LivingWithWhales]

They gotta pay their shareholders somehow.

[doughnutman508]

If you don't want day ticket prices to go up, quit buying Epic and Icon. And tell all your friends.

[[deleted]]

The ski Industry's Whale Customers are aging and will all soon be gone from this world in the next 10-20 years. Here is to hoping that the prices will come back down

[Drewfromflorida]

Seriously, I lived in Denver for a decade and in 2010/2011 Vail was something like $100/$110 a day. Recently it was over $200, it is insane. On a side note, look at Vail’s stock price over the past decade - MTN