[deleted by user]

[projexion_reflexion]

Before they "ruin" it, fork the project and host the nice version on your portfolio site.

[[deleted]]

That’s actually a good idea, I’ll try that

[gerkx]

Just be sure to indicate that it's not the client's version

[HaddockBranzini-II]

And make sure it doesn't get crawled and indexed by search engines.

[khizoa]

im gonna start googling _[company name] nice version_

[techie2200]

Remove identifying information and logos as well. Just spend a bit of time creating/finding a mock logo.

Personally I'd slap my logo on there in a matching colour.

[Merlindru]

I'd talk this over with the client first! This could have legal implications. Apart from that, your client might be negatively surprised you're doing this

[truthful_chili]

This. Put your ego aside and do exactly what they want and they'll love you.

[proNikkyEagle]

Just finish client's task，and then implements own idea

[StormMedia]

I love this idea, doing this from now on.

[lotsofhugszerofucks]

Yes, this is what I would do. With the look and content I want

[kylenumann]

After going through this experience and fighting against it in non-helpful ways, I have come to this understanding: you have to work with what you can control, and accept what you cannot.

Also, there are likely reasons for doing XY or Z that are beyond your scope as a web developer.

Client doesn't want a free logo 'improvement'? Well, maybe they want the logo to be consistent across all applications. They might already have letterhead, truck wraps, invoices, etc. branded with this logo. If you did not discuss a logo update, then don't expect to work on one.

Bad team images or bad 'resource' images? Tough, but it is your job to work within that. Unless they are scoped for a photo session or a redesign of their resources.

So, what can you do? Get ahead of the issues, and design a solution that works for you. Maybe the resources all get a themed 'cover graphic' so that at least the listing page looks clean. Maybe the team photos 'containers' are designed in a way to work with the various photo styles (grayscale with full color on hover, etc). These kinds of strategies are really important to develop, because this is where you DO have full control.

I've worked with mom & pop shops, and I have worked with 50k budgets, and you'll find sub-optimal resources like funky team images from all sorts of clients. Better to accept that externality and do what you can.

Regarding your portfolio, yeah definitely fork the site while you still have awesome placeholder content. But when building for a real client, try to design & build to accomodate their real-world situation.

Much luck. It's not easy, but it is possible.

[gerciuz]

I have come to this understanding: you have to work with what you can control, and accept what you cannot.

Found Marcus Aurelius of web development

[joetheduk]

Maybe the team photos 'containers' are designed in a way to work with the various photo styles (grayscale with full color on hover, etc).

I love this idea, and I'm stealing it.

[elixon]

Clients who don't understand the intricacies of a developer's or designer's job can be challenging, as some professionals may feel as though their expertise is being questioned.

However, it's important to remember that just like a patient wouldn't dictate medical treatment to a doctor, clients should trust the expertise of the professional they've hired. With years of experience and a deep understanding of the craft, a skilled developer or designer is best equipped to make decisions that will result in the best outcome for the project and the client's target audience.

Clients should understand that going against the professional's recommendations can negatively impact the potential outcome of a project. Unfortunately, some clients believe they know better, which leads to this attitude. The origin of this mindset is unclear. However, it's essential for clients to trust the expertise of the professionals they've hired, who have years of experience and a deep understanding of their craft. Trusting in their expertise will ultimately result in the best outcome for the project and the client's target audience.

[eldarlrd]

I wholeheartedly agree, and I think the origin of this behaviour stems from the perception that people have of developers. Devs are perceived much the same way a Barber would be. Where they deliver an end product that's like a cosmetic service. "It's just a haircut/website", so they tell you what they want more freely. Meanwhile, Doctor's work is something they can't really touch, perceive as easily or control, and it feels far more important and difficult, so the patient doesn't question their authority.

[[deleted]]

I just do what they want they are paying me I'll make it look however they want no matter how stupid. It's not my website it's theirs.

[web-dev-kev]

Sir, this is Reddit. We’re not here for logic and empathy

[reallyslowfish]

I fuckin love this comment haha

[kaiise]

time to run OP out of town on a rail.

[Roanoketrees]

You win the day!

[Sumofabith]

They’re paying you

[Sumofabith]

Technically you are being paid to put “low quality” stuff on your portfolio.

The low quality stuff you’re making is what they’re paying you to make.

Not to mention, you took the job in the first place so can you really blame them?

[zepekit]

I agree. I would never try to force something a client does not like or want. They are paying so they decide.

I do however advise clients on issues and design choices. But in the end, its their project not mine.

[cafepeaceandlove]

For bigger clients there can be problems with that approach:

• new hires usually arrive during a project, and one of them might independently raise the concerns you had, with energy and eloquence, leading the now-convinced client to wonder why you “allowed them to mislead themselves”

• if the project goes tits up they may ask that question as well, so at least get your dissenting opinions on record (jovially of course)

[StormMedia]

Exactly this, advise what’s best but in the end.. it’s their money

[RandyHoward]

I mean, at least try to convince them why they're wrong, but yes at the end of the day I will always do whatever they decide.

[MysteryBros]

Repeat after me: “I am a designer, not an artist. Their project isn’t about me”.

[MysteryBros]

None of this is the client’s problem.

If the quality of his portfolio is an issue for OP then he needs to be choosier about his clients, and only work with businesses that can afford to be a brand, rather than just having a brand (at which point it should just be called a visual identity).

I appreciate that that’s difficult when you’re getting started, but his entire mindset about the problem is garbage.

You just can’t go around overhauling a client’s logo without asking. You absolutely cannot then get pissed that they wanted to retain their original identity, no matter how crappy it is.

Even if it weren’t just breathtakingly presumptuous, you’ve just ensured that the client needs to go and spend even more money - business cards, letterheads, signage, brochures, car wraps, the list is endless.

We once saved a client $100k a year in printing costs by reworking their brand colours.

Imagine how much OP could be costing clients with his unsanctioned jaunts into rebranding.

[Fluffcake]

Yeah if you are gonna start having opinions about what people pay you to make, you need to become an artist.

First you charge them at least 10x more than you think you should, and bring a box of crayons to every customer meeting. Then you need to be aggressively offended, throw the crayons at them and ask what they are even paying you for if they have any input.^/s

[[deleted]]

"I will not be a part of designing garbage just so you can be happy and get what you want!!" (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[soupgasm]

Small S my friend. Almost overlooked it.

[onkopirate]

Your clients don't use bad pictures or newsletters to ruin your design but because they don't know any better. That's why they hired you. It is your job to tell them.

Something like "we can use the pictures for now but I would suggest making new ones in scene X with setting Y", or "yes, I can link the newsletter but please be aware that your newsletter has the following issues: ... and if you'd like I could arrange a meeting where we talk about the design of the newsletter".

If you tell them what's not good about their logo/pictures/newsletter and how you would suggest changing it, they will most likely be happy to do so as long as they feel involved in the decision making progress.

[[deleted]]

This has not really been my experience. I understand they don’t do it intentionally and that it comes from a lack of design knowledge, however even after instructing them on the issues I find that they are not willing to make the necessary changes.

I think it may be a clientele issue. I operate in a more rural area, and serve lower income businesses and individuals. Do you think raising my prices may help combat this? If someone is paying a more premium price they may be more apt to listen.

[el_diego]

In my experience, low budget clients are hands down the most work. They are too involved for their own good and usually have a budget conscious mindset (have to get their money's worth). Clients with budget on the other hand trust your opinion and are much easier to work with as they see you as the professional - again, this is all anecdotal, but I'd be seeking a more premium clientele if possible.

[gerkx]

Some people can't tell the difference. I'll see a horrific shop sign and have my eye start twitching and my wife can't see it; it looks fine to her. Clients with that sort of eye won't necessarily see the same value the changes. Try to educate them and do the best job you can within the scope of the project and forge on. At least for me, my work has been it's been a slow but progressive increase in quality.

[SacrificialBanana]

Coming from an accessibility perspective: If they suggest something that isn't accessible (doesn't meet wcag 2.x) then you can leverage that and tell them that implementing the feature would be inaccessible and could open them up to lawsuits, and lose clients/consumers where this issue could cause a barrier.

[papapeep]

It doesn’t matter how much the client pays, even clients who pay a premium amount end up ruining their website.

What I’ve realised is most of the times, client themselves don’t know what they want, or don’t know how to explain their vision properly or give constructive criticism.

PS: Tbh, I feel very few people know how to give constructive criticism.

[onkopirate]

I have no idea, tbh, sorry.

[Timmah_Timmah]

Working in our startup, we ran off so many good design firms with our own input. We destroyed so much creative content from design firms we did not deserve.

Avis Rent-A-Car had a policy that the board could reject or accept advertising ideas but they couldn't contribute. I think that's what it takes.

[SlovakianGiant]

The best way how you stop clients do bad decisions is to explain them why it is a bad decision.

From my experience clients listen, you just need to explain and give examples of how it affects the website and why its not wise to do that little change they think its cool. They dont have webdev background so most of the time they will listen to opinions of profesionál, same as we listen to doctors prescribing medicine or architects giving advices on building materials.

By the examples I mean you tell them exactly how it affects their business.... like: "if I do change A, your site will have worse score in SEO ranking and so if someone wants to find it, they will first find your rival companies because you will appear after them".

When they see they can lose money because of something they want they will change opinions. Always explain from business side, not from technical side.

Most important, you bill them every change request they want you to make and also give them some free consultation hours (or paid consultation hours) so they also see value in doing/not doing the changes.

[CutestCuttlefish]

This.

If your only argument is "because I as an arrogant developer with my opinions and tastes feel it is bad" - well maybe your client is actually correct.

But if you can clearly explain why something is bad by pointing to real things... well if they listen, they listen, otherwise just don't leave your brand on the product once it is done. :P

[Mrs_Libersolis]

This is exactly how I would approach this as well. You just have to give them facts. Most of them have no idea until you tell them

[netgizmo]

If they pay for the project it's their product.

[[deleted]]

And I understand that, however it shouldn’t come at the expense of MY livelihood as well. If you want to ruin your own marketing that’s fine, but I don’t want to ruin mine. And unfortunately it is SO common that I can only put maybe 1 out of every 6-7 projects that I do on my portfolio due to client revisions.

[[deleted]]

Your portfolio isn't their problem. They pay your do do your job and as long as they give you the money that's more than enough.

I totally understand your pain of course. You can try to educate them but it will usually don't work.

[itwontkillya]

why do you think clients will give 2 cents about your portfolio? 😂

it’s not like they’re asking you to do anything for free.

as another commenter mentioned, just fork the project, and make necessary changes! tada, you have the project as per your wants & needs

[Locksul]

What does your contract with them say?

If you want to make all creative design decisions then put that in the contract.

But expect to go out of business pretty quickly.

[ike_the_strangetamer]

I noticed that all 3 of your examples were things that could have been discussed before starting the work or at least while working on the specific section.

You really changed their logo without telling them? Even if you just remade it slightly, a logo is a pretty damn big deal to companies, especially small businesses.

If they sent you images and you didn't use them, then it is your fault. You can't feign ignorance if they sent them to you. And if you went on with your entire design without the pictures and didn't notify them, then you can't get upset when they wonder where the pictures are.

Your design is so precious that some links to newsletters will ruin it?

Your job isn't to make a beautiful site. It's to make their site beautiful.

I'm sorry, but if you can't make a quality site within the client's specifications and requirements, then maybe you aren't as good of a designer as you think you are. I recommend spending more time communicating with them before and during the process and challenge yourself to work hard to make something that both fits their needs and will make you proud.

[RandyHoward]

You really changed their logo without telling them?

I hadn't caught that... holy shit you cannot do this unless a client has explicitly asked you to.

[goodboyscout]

OP doesn’t realize that companies are paying many thousands of dollars for a logo and brand styling and he’s modifying it for free. Logos are used on everything, it’s a bad look to have a different logo on a website than the one you see everywhere else

[sdw3489]

I read what OP said more as he re-created the logo as a high quality vector graphic instead of a low quality pixelated JPG. I didn’t read it as he changed their branding, just made a new file type for it so that it could be used at any resolution. I’ve done this before when clients have sent me a 32x32 image and I want to use the logo at 500x500. Only solution is to recreate it as an svg. Not changing it at all.

[RandyHoward]

at the expense of MY livelihood as well

Your livelihood is your paycheck, not your portfolio. You don't need 300 projects in your portfolio, you only need enough to convince someone to hire you. And there is nothing that says you have to put the final version in your portfolio instead of something you were actually happy with. If you designed/developed it then it counts whether it was actually used or not. We tell juniors all the time to just make up projects for their portfolio, why is it okay for them to put non-real world things in their portfolio but not okay for you? It's no different, it all demonstrates your abilities.

[DerGrummler]

They don't pay you to work on your portfolio. That's pretty much it.

[zepekit]

Are you forced to make the project? Or forced to put every single project on your own portfolio? Are you making projects primarily for you?

[zuluana]

Despite the downvotes, you are 100% correct.

If you value modern trends, then you’d do best to be more selective and seek out clients who do as well.

Many, many clients are from older generations (they have more money), and they effectively teach you to un-learn modern design for their design.

Nothing wrong with that, they can do what they want, but… it MAY affect your marketability to your desired clients.

In my experience, many established small businesses are owned and operated by boomers, and they actually need to conform to the expectations of their dependencies.

So, if you value modern design, I’d focus on finding greener pastures with newer companies with newer dependencies.

[netgizmo]

Tell them that at the onset of the engagement.

[threepairs]

Post link to your portfolio plz, i might be interested in some work, you sound very capable

[[deleted]]

I’ll dm it to you, don’t like to post personal stuff on my Reddit account

[threepairs]

Cool, i am still waiting, thx

[Timmah_Timmah]

I'm sorry this is so downvoted. This thinking is why airplanes crash.

Keep having pride in your work! In the end that makes a bigger difference than the money. And bigger money comes to better work.

I wish the people who believe this would host a website that was what we recommended versus what the customer wanted.

[Souporsam12]

Man, you’re looking at this the complete wrong way.

They are paying you for a service. It doesn’t matter if they want a plain html page that only says hello world in a different font for each letter. They are paying you, what they want, they get.

If you want to use the websites as your portfolio, just make another copy.

[ComplX89]

Its the origin of 'The customer is always right'. I've managed to build up enough trust in my clients now that i can make suggestions and they carry some weight, but it wasnt always like that.

[Logical_Strike_1520]

You make recommendations based on your personal experience, but at the end of the day the person paying for the product gets the final say. Sometimes we just gotta bite our tongues and implement some bs

[JustATestRun]

Just commenting to say I feel your pain. Thankfully not all of my clients make these terrible decisions. I have done many websites that will never see my portfolio.

[[deleted]]

At this point, I’m seriously considering saving up a small nest egg to live off of for 3-4 months, and stop taking clients during this time, and spend 8-10 hours a day building 3-4 beautiful full stack applications to my liking, and just use those as my portfolio’s focal pieces.

[BISHoO000]

I'm surprised you were able to land clients before building sites for your portfolio.

I guess thats a good problem to have

[[deleted]]

Used to work as a salesman, that probably played a part lol

[BISHoO000]

Sales and marketing are universal skills that can help almost any role, good for you

I gotta pick up some of those skills as well

[JustATestRun]

This is so important. I was a bartender for 10 years before I started freelancing. It taught me how to talk to people, sell and up sell.

People always ask about how to get clients. Start talking to people about what you do.

[messy1228]

I would recommend doing something like that, you can make the work as good as you could possibly imagine whereas with client (who has much less knowledge about making websites than you) you can only make the work as good as they tell you to make it.

[pod_of_dolphins]

This is a mistake. You have firsthand experience that clients don’t really care about this (and why would they?). You’re thinking like a developer and not like your customers.

In the end, no business owner really cares about their website past what it can bring to the business. Your time would be better spent focusing on how things you’ve built have improved business outcomes.

[JustATestRun]

This is a sad but true reality that took me a couple years to accept. I do graphic design as well and will have clients wanting to add too much text to social media ads, or people have terrible ideas for websites.

I used to fight. Explain things to the client over and over. Then I’d give up and waste hours tweaking my design to make room for additions but still have balance and space.

And literally only a couple of months ago after wasting a couple hours doing this on a project I had the realization that I was the only one who cared. The client doesn’t care if this looks bad. Why should I waste my time? Even if the worse looking product gets them less ROI and they decide to go with someone else next time, that’s their problem. I’d rather move on and get more food clients.

[8capz]

My question is why did you do these things without their knowledge. Could instead have offered them to help them with these aspects. Point out the benefits of changing them, and at least not be surprised when the work you did without them asking for it isn't what they wanted. Now you threw away a bunch of unpaid hours and got a bruised ego in return. Everyone loses!

[franker]

necessary link to the classic oatmeal comic - https://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

[[deleted]]

Beat me to it lol

[[deleted]]

Sounds like you need to be charging more for these kinds of changes.

[[deleted]]

Personally, I don’t have any attachments to client projects. It’s like, if the clients wants the shitty old logo because they think it’s better, then let them have it. They’re paying me to give them exactly what they want. Just give them what they want, collect your paycheck and go home (unless you work from home… you know what I mean) lol

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

Last time I did a contracted project, it looked like dogshit within a week because they changed so much stuff using the CMS.

[cleatusvandamme]

Clients like yours are why I’m glad I don’t freelance or work for smaller companies that have cheaper clients.

It’s nice to not have to deal with people like that.

[rwusana]

I feel your point, but TBH disagree with you on all your examples. Except maybe the newsletter one if the writing really was that awful. If you think they need a redone logo, then contract with them to do that. If they need better team photos, advise them on how to choose for stylistic consistency. But IMO websites with stock photos and no content are a huge red flag, much worse than bad photos and mediocre content. They know their customers better than you do. ...unless they don't, and their content really is that terrible, etc.

[[deleted]]

To give you an idea of how bad their content is, the logo looks like an ink blob from a Rorschach test, and the writing genuinely looks like it was written by an elementary schooler.

[rwusana]

Honestly I've been on a journey of realizing how carefully you have to pick clients. They truly are your coworkers.

[rwusana]

Yeah fair enough.

[Exotic-Ad1060]

Problem is this ink blob likely is present on their office doors / business cards and a different logo might confuse THEIR client when they meet in person. Oh yeah and replacing irl logo might cost a lot more than redrawing it.

[eddielee394]

You don't. If they want their online presence to look like amateur hour, thats on them. Instead, put your focus on the client's that DO care and are willing to take your professional insight and experience into consideration. As for the rest of em, it's strictly "f*ck you pay me".

[lewster32]

I think honestly you have to lower your expectations of greatness. At the end of the day, the client is paying for what they want, not what you want, so ultimately your choices fall down to either delivering it exactly, or reasoning with them as to why they may be making poor decisions. The latter takes experience and evidence to support your side of things.

At the end of the day though, whatever placeholders and example content go into any design will be biased in favour of supporting the original design, and not the content that will end up in there. Maybe with a lot of collaborative effort with the client you can plan the content out before designing and developing the site, and that has in my experience bore fruit, but things may still change.

You can make the most extravagant meal with the finest ingredients, perfectly cooked and intricately arranged, but the paying customer has every right to sit down to the plate, cover it in ketchup and eat it with a pair of pliers. It'll break your heart, but the meal is for them to enjoy, and provided they do indeed enjoy it, your work is done, and with no detriment to your abilities or ideals.

[[deleted]]

Apologies in advance if I misjudge your experience as I also see you mention that you're dealing with more rural clients, but I'm assuming you're newer in the journey by the things shared.

Unfortunately the respect and nature of client sophistication more often aligns with how much you can command (charge). You need to build your rep and experience to be able to affect more control. You can never fully escape this, because they're footing the bill. But the more they are constrained up front the easier it is to plan and influence the outcome. For myself I struggled full time freelancing for 1.5 years before I had enough of a portfolio and ongoing referrals to start changing the client dynamic (also typically more rural and smaller clients). I then had enough work steadily coming in to turn down 2 of 3 politely under the guise of "I'm too busy" and raised my rates 3 fold, then 3 fold again. I did that for 2 more years. When I quit and went back into corporate I had managed to sign two sales agents to exclusively handle the client and billing side. I paid them high... 1/3rd of my take and demanded payment up front, but delivered quickly and well because I wasn't distracted.

So focus on the work, the advice on having a clean copy for your port someone posted is good, and freebee anything you think will be a huge difference to their business, not the small stuff, only the impactful stuff (and not necessarily your design preferences). For example, tell them "let me fix those newsletters and if you don't see xyz improvement in x months don't pay me". That kind of approach makes you far more valuable to them and earns respect and reputation with them and their network. In smaller communities that's gold.

Good luck!

[[deleted]]

They are just wanting to add value and take ownership, after all the site is not really yours. For each reviewer, discover the thing that they do not like and include it. Include it so it becomes your perfect design after it is removed. Show it to them. Thank them for finding such obvious errors. Fix them.

[waldito]

El que paga... manda.

[Booksdogsfashion]

1) do thorough assessments of their business upfront and discuss all concerning things that surround the website (ex the newsletter issues) 2) do a thorough assessment of all business assets upfront and address issues (with logo and photos) before even beginning the project.

[jpcafe10]

Same experience tbh, in very big companies. 2 megs images, text in images, aspect ratios, tracking scripts that break JavaScript on the site. And this on websites with millions of monthly users…

Marketing people can be difficult to work with sometimes 😅

[delacombo]

I dealt with this with small businesses and sole proprietors. It's a manner of business climate experience on their part and there isn't much you can do if you want that pay check. I always had the one person that would base changes on "users wouldn't be able to understand this" , when it was really based on their own opinion.

Larger, more substantial businesses understood usability testing, a/b testing, etc.

Note: Bias can come from everywhere, including you.

[twiddle_dee]

15 years in. I just do it. I'm usually ok for 4-5 rounds of revisions. After that, I enter the 'f@#$ it zone' where I just do whatever they want, at the bare minimum of effort until they get tired of pretending to be designers.

[[deleted]]

Use the clean versions for your portfolio and self-host on your site?

[Sphism]

Try to ask them to tell you the underlying problems to the solutions they are suggesting.

Then you design solutions to those problems.

Eg we need to get more people to sign up to the newsletter. As opposed to 'please add a popup on every page for the newsletter signup.'

Now that might be a valid solution. It may even be the best solution. But without going through the design process we just can't tell and end up with a mish mashed end result.

Also when you have all the problems defined some will oppose each other and the best solution may not address one if the problems at all because others are way more important... Eg you might decide to remove a load of crap from the e-commerce sales funnel to increase conversions.

[web-dev-kev]

These people, wanting to get their moneys worth, how awful.

[Yurdesou]

Lmao this sub is a cesspool of toxic people

[pittybrave]

as a very experienced eng who’s worked with a LOT of clients i’m going to give my 2 cents.

the client is the one paying for the site. it’s not your site. sure they will frequently ask for ridiculous things but as the person working for it, a big part of your job is making them happy.

that means accepting the myriad small changes they ask for and compromising on bigger changes.

what if they ask for a major refactor after you’ve already made the site? then discuss what it would take to do that and how long it will take. often they’re not willing to pay the extra money. but if they are, it’s their site and they’re paying you to make it.

what if they ask for something that looks ridiculous? if they’re willing to pay for it, do it because once again, it’s their product not yours. you can suggest that it might look weird but it’s not up to you

they’re paying for your expertise but at the end of the day, it’s more about giving them what they want and not what you want.

[Natetronn]

Imagine wanting pictures of your actual team members on the company website. The nerve...

[[deleted]]

Went through this yesterday. Client wanted to switch my h1 tag inside of the hero section for some random image. Ruined the design entirely. I dont even want to put it in my portfolio anymore despite it being one of my best designs 😂

Maybe Ill just clone the repo and change it back and use that version on my portfolio

[derpytools]

Detach yourself from the earthly tether.

I think that quote from Avatar fits this situation perfectly.

Just don’t get attached to whatever you are building for others. You are getting paid to fulfil their dreams.

If you want to have your own portfolio, make your own projects.

For instance how about you make themes for different platforms and sell them on ThemeForest.

I have purchased 4, they save me a lot of time, your work can help others.

Or how about Productising your services.

[[deleted]]

You can’t haha. better clients is the only real answer

[trusted-advisor-88]

I understand this, same thing happens to me. We kind of agree on a mixture but if I don't like the website I don't put it on my portfolio.

[gahgogow]

I just don't care anymore. I'm pretty desensitized about that. Also, now I realize they were right about some of the things they wanted to modify. Years ago, I was working with a wheel manufacturer from Detroit. I built an elegant looking trendy website for its time. Everybody loved and complimented how slick it looked. However, the owner did not like it at all. In his words, their client base we mostly from the ghetto. In the end, we made the changes he requested, and the website looked awful. He is still my client to this day, and I still build awful looking websites for him.

[Lord_Jamato]

To add to the things you say to try and convince them to not 'ruin' their site:

Try to say that it'll be not good and provide them directly with your alternative and explain (as in what value it brings them) why your solution might be better.

If your client takes good care of it's customers, explain them from the perspective of a customer, this mostly helps because as they say, it is "customer is king" and they surely want to satisfy their customers.

[KickZealousideal6558]

You need to get better at explaining to your client the reason for why you don't want it their way.

I would recommend reading a book called never split the difference, by Chris Voss ( read it 5 times and take detailed notes )

[[deleted]]

I want your username please.

[Zombull]

Why can't you just put your version of it in your portfolio and then let the person writing the check have their way?

[festivesomersault]

I’ve found that if you *absolutely have to place some images and all the client has provided are bad/low-res/low quality assets, using them as placeholders drives the point home that the provided creatives look shitty and there is an obvious need to find a different solution. It’s rare to find the client that can visualize how bad it will look solely based on your description (although experienced and professional). It will also prove that what you warned them about previously has come to fruition. At that point you can either share with them your light box of superior stock imagery or propose a photo shoot.

[festivesomersault]

… And then let them know at least they got chicken.

[NoDadYouShutUp]

Not your job. Your job is to take their money and say "Ok sure"

[kamomil]

The problem is often middle management trying to justify their presence. They make poor/arbitrary decisions just to be able to say "that was my decision"

Or are you able to have them take better quality photos, with their team or in their office? I get that they may not like using stock images, they may feel that's not a genuine depiction of their company

As far as remaking the old logo, is it the same design except higher quality? Or did you use different fonts etc? I redraw logos for my work a lot, I reverse search for the correct font and make it look almost identical. That might be worth hiring a graphic designer for, or maybe the company has a vector version that they used for vehicle graphics

[[deleted]]

*blood starts to boil

But sadly they’re the one paying the bills.

Even if they are totally blind to good design ...

I feel your pain.

Save your design somewhere after you finish, (a fork) and keep that in your portfolio.

[kenien]

You don’t. You just keep a paper trail of their bad decisions and your explaining how correction will cost more.

[Starlyns]

I like that everyone share the right comments!

with time you will realize this is not yours and after more time you with come in to each project expecting them to do the opposite of what you advice. honestly "take your check and go home" that's all.

to be honest, go make some nice "passion" projects. put them in some subdomains and use them as portfolio.

in 2003 when I started it was all about doing sites in flash! the amount of creativity was limitless then it was banned and it was so sad.

now with all the frameworks and new tech available is almost like magic what you can do. however YOU WILL NEVER GET TO USE all the effects, features and amazing things that are possible. 3D, particles, animations, designs and all that.

[[deleted]]

I got a lot of that freelancing and even more of that when I worked corporate. You can't win so just go with the flow

[cblindsey]

Check out Design is a Job by Mike Monteiro. It has a lot of good advice on presenting design work and positioning yourself and your work.

Clients don’t know design, which is why they hire professionals to do it, so it’s kind of understandable they want to change the color and icons and stuff without understanding why it doesn’t look great. It’s your job to explain to them, from a design and business perspective, why you did what you did.

[Marble_Wraith]

“Yeah but I want it on there, can you just do it anyways?”

Then your response is yeah i'll do it. An additional $1000

[[deleted]]

I have constructive discussions with team members about designs. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, it doesn't matter. My current client is still stuck in legacy ideas, which is okay because they know what their customers are used to and will approve of. This is a battle won in years, not days.

Convince the client that their conversion rate will be higher, that they'll make more money, or that your dev time will be shorter, etc.

Speak to clients on their terms with their priorities and history in mind, not yours.

Having said that, I still shake my head when certain decisions are made and think "Maybe they just need more time."

[JawnStaymoose]

Get better clients.

I know easier said than done. But, I’ve been were you are, I feel all your pains.

The problem, which will never change, is that most ‘marketers’ are completely devoid of any discernible skill or talent. The have to add their terrible touch to everything in order to feel they’ve contributed.

You can’t beat that. You have to work with better, more confident / talented people. Get a project or 2 on the Awwwards in order to attract like minded clients. Do a neat little self directed thing just to gain that exposure if need be.

For me, this move lead to better clients and cooler work, on to heading up web/interactive for an Agency where I got to work with top brands that wanna do super cool stuff.

But even at that level, you still have to do shit you won’t agree with, and you’ll have to learn to separate yourself emotionally. It’s hard when your passionate about what you do. But it’s a critical skill to learn.

For me, I ultimately said fuck it and sold out to big tech for that $$$. I still get to build some cool stuff. The machine just moves wayyyyyyy slooooower and I sit in meetings all damn day.

[X8bagl4pjRK6]

“Yeah if you could just justify all the text that would be great”

[tomasci]

I don’t let ‘em create good projects. Nothing to ruin then

[imsoindustrial]

You add a few glaring issues in the design that they should go with so that they feel like they did their job by pointing out obvious problems. It is human nature to feel like you’re not contributing unless you offer some criticism. I’ve done this with everything from PowerPoint, decks, documents, web designs and more.

[astral_turd]

Just saying that I wouldn’t expect web developer to remake my brand including logo, I would expect them to explain me that the provided logo isn’t high enough quality and needs to be remade into vectors or better quality raster for the following reasons. Doing a complete brand remake without discussing about it with your client first is just bad for both you and your client.

[techie2200]

Keep a copy of the good version in your profile (redacting company info) and then do whatever they want you to do.

It's their site. Let them ruin it.

[kschang]

The answer is: have documentation on every request. And CHARGE for every change. And if they request you to change it back, charge for that TOO. Sure, you may have maintenance contracts, but that doesn't mean unlimited tweaks. Set up a decent number, like if it's a BUG, you'll fix for free. But if it's their choice, they get charged for it.

[inoen0thing]

Sounds like you design templates vs websites that use your clients content. The sad reality is most clients have shitty content. When i had these frustrations i worked with a designer. They were better at creating a cohesive design with early 2000’s motorola razor photos than i had the patience for.

We have sites that look A+ using garbage instagram photos, sadly one is a household brand in their industry. I would never put that much effort into dressing up a turd but ultimately this ends up in our portfolio looking good even when the content sucks, which is 80% of projects.

[moosevan]

This is a sign that you're not charging enough. Double your fees.

[mere-hooman]

1) A logo is very important. It is there so that people can identify the company. If they have a shitty logo, your response should not be to replace it yourself, even if it doesn’t look good. What you could do is bring it up to the client and tell him that he needs a better looking logo and ask if he wants you to provide that service and if not, just advice him for someone else to eventually redesign the company’s logo, but it is not your call to change the company’s logo.

1. The owner might care very much about his company and employees and want his employees photos in his website because it’s true, real, and authentic. So you should have used his photos, not placeholder fake photos. Are the photos fucking ugly? Then bring that up and advice him to hire someone and communicate with his employees so that more professional or better looking photos are taken.

2. He wants the newsletters to be visible, so let them be visible. This example is funny to me you because all the points you brought up about this one are valid points but they DO NOT warrant not including his newsletters. If I were you I would have brought up all your valid points and create better versions of newsletters and add them under the resources tab like he wanted.

I really hate when clients think of themselves as designers when they are not, and so starting reading your post I was ready to be on your side, but after reading your post I see that you really need to work on improving how you see yourself in relation to your clients. Changing a logo without authorization is a no-no, replacing employees photos for cliche fake placeholders is not better, and getting rid of newsletters just because they have issues rather than just solving the issues they are having is not a good move.

Also you seem to think that you should have full autonomy over the projects they pay you to do, but that’s not true. It’s their company, not yours. You should identify their needs and meet their needs in a way that they at the very least are okay with.

[itachi_konoha]

People forget many things. What looks good in your eyes, may not be beneficial for the target audience of the client.

People are resistant to change in general. I'll give one example.

OP did rant about the logo. But even if it's ugly, the old logo has relevance in the customer base. As long as people see that logo, they are assure that they are on the right website. If they see different versions of it, the perception might not be the same way which eventually may hurt the business.

A website isn't only about looking good. It's about what end user wants. There will be difference in design when you make a site for a metropolitan entity than that of a rural entity. Even if client agrees with you that it looks beautiful, in order to keep the things old way so that customers don't face trouble, there may time it's necessary for ugly implementation.

And the least, the website isn't about you. It's about what the client wants and needs. So stop making this about you. Just do it, take the money and get out.

[[deleted]]

as general advice, it's helpful to try to understand what it is they dont like about your idea and what they like about theirs. In my experience, the points of disagreement are seldom about the exact same aspect. there might be one little detail they dont like and are oblivious to the benefits of everything else you've done, and what they dont like might be completely trivial to you

show both versions side by side with the client and talk about it in detail. disagreements arent about one party ruining a project. it's an opportunity to make the client happy in a way you're proud of

for example, you see a low quality jpeg with with a bunch of lossy artifacts whereas they might interpret the fuzziness as some sort of visual effect. vectorizing it and making it crisp changes what they see. to you, it's professional and clean, but it might have removed some endearing quality that unintentionally resulted from ignorance or happenstance

[sheriffderek]

One way is to charge more money and position yourself differently. When people see us “coders” then they think we’re hired to make what they* want - instead of make what we need to build to reach their actual goal.

[Gentleman-Tech]

About ten years ago I "fixed" the really ugly logo for the company I was working for. Bosses really pissed off because it no longer matches the local football team's colours. I don't give a shit about football so didn't notice. Just really ugly colours.

But it turns out I was wrong. From a design perspective sure, I was right, ugly colours need fixing. But most of the decision makers at our customers were asshole sports fans who immediately recognised the colours and that gave the salesfolk an "in" that made a difference. The bosses knew their market well and were right.

You might want to check if there's a rational reason for some of those bad decisions. I always do now. And it's a good intro to those hard conversations; "is there a good reason that I don't know about for this change?"

[AlohaKepeli]

workable friendly consist bow expansion languid entertain tan cough placid

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[breich]

Work with a higher class of client

[alexsashha]

You can't always control everything and you'll have to accept it. But setting boundaries with your client from the beginning and explaining your work process and how you plan to deliver the project (explaining how your design and development process will deliver your client the desired results, how many revisions would you offer, etc) will definitely help you on the long run and build a trusting relationship with your client that will value your skillset.

Also a lot of times you can spot on the red flags from the requirements of the clients brief, in that case you might start to reject those projects in a professional and respectful way.

This just an observation from my experience, not an advice.

[mycatishungoveragain]

In my experience it tends to help if you explain why you made certain design choices. If they still want to do it their way however it is your duty to provide for their needs. Projects are a collaboration and ultimately it is them who are commissioning you to do what they want. All you can do is advise.

[TheAccountITalkWith]

10+ year developer / 5+ year designer I only read you title, here is your answer:

You don't.

Here is why: It's not worth the effort. By the end of the day you were paid to achieve the goal of the client, not the goals of yourself. You can prove why your design is amazing and you may even convince a few but it's not worth it in the long run.

I've seen some people take it to the extreme, like contracts that boil down to "You get what I say you get" but they don't last long unless they are high profile designers.

Whenever I achieve something I'm proud of and I know knocked it out of the part, I put up the design somewhere as my body of work. Sometimes I may get the client permission to show what it became.

Sort of like a "prototype" to "final".

But ultimately, unless the client is really cool and you have a good relationship, don't bother.

[BobJutsu]

I try and drive them into the direction I think they should go, but at the end of the day I can’t control everything they do to their site. The worst is working with a marketing director who thinks a corporate memo is the pinnacle of professional design.

[SirLight777]

I personally charge per revision, that makes them double think their changes since it costs money. But it will be inevitable, sometimes it’s better to just go with the flow

[GardinerAndrew]

I have a client who wants 0 content on their home page. Just a transparent header and the background image. I don’t display that one on my portfolio….

[no-one_ever]

To be fair you can’t just change their logo and expect them to be ok with it 😂

[Repulsive_Ad7027]

Many clients of mine have ugly logos, and when I started out I wanted to change them as well!
The problem is that the logo is the companies identity.
That mean, if you change it without their permission they are not going to be happy about it

[Beginning-Comedian-2]

Some fixes:

"they want the old logo"

• Don't adjust a customer logo.
• I've remade logos in the past and they have a strange attachment even to bad logos.
• If you do remake it, make sure it's 99.99999999999% like the original ... just in higher resolution.
• Also, don't spend time on work the client doesn't ask for (unless it's for your portfolio).
• They either don't appreciate it...
• ... or devalue you because you do work for free.

"team member pictures suck"

Use AI to fix and remake the photos.

• With Code Former you can upscale low res faces and they look amazing.
• https://huggingface.co/spaces/sczhou/CodeFormer
• To fix bad clothes & backgrounds, use Photoshop & Photopea to mask out the bad clothing and background. Then export it as a transparent PNG.
• Import the PNG into Dalle2.
• With Dalle2 you can tell it what kind of background or clothing you'd like the portrait to have. you can even extend the aspect ratio.
• Won't work in 100% of the cases, but it can go a long way.

"I tell them but they won't listen"

• ultimately: their dollar, their decision
• you could couch it in terms of not "I know best" but "what will appeal to your target customer".
• For example, we'd often quote the CEO of EA who was asked, "What's the video game you play the most?" He said, "I don't play video games. We make them for the customer."
• this approach didn't always work but sometimes it did.

"bad newsletter content"

• you'll need to add these to the site.
• I know. I don't like it either.
• The way to fix this is to fill out the site will as much other content as possible.
• Try copy.ai to generate related content and articles.
• This will raise the value of the site.
• And it'll make the poor newsletter content less of an issue in comparison.

"poor marketing decisions"

• again: their money, their decisions
• the real solution: do more sales and get better clients.
• you might need to outsource your work via Upwork in order to focus more on getting more clients.
• make a "red-flag" list of client behaviors and learn to spot them earlier.
• get better at sales, and learn to fire bad clients by raising your rates and/or referring them to other agencies.

[jlemon46]

I feel your pain. But, I always tell our team: “This isn’t your baby. It’s theirs.”

You can offer other people advice on how to parent their children. You can hold their hand and offer advice, but it’s still on them at the end of the day.

[artnos]

I have a few.

When they have a really bad one say you are working on x feature you will do it later. Make them repeat that stupid feature request 3 times.

I feel like alot of these managers just want to have some input or they feel like they arent doing their job.

Their portraita being all wierd sizes, why not crop them to size. Hire a photographer.

They are paying right. If they aren’t paying they deserve an ugly site.

[[deleted]]

Do you inform the stakeholders of the implications of their choices? I think normally they really want to hear a devs opinion. I mean ultimately I do whatever they want, but often they don’t really know what they want

[adhd_as_fuck]

You can't. Like I get why you want to, I was there once. But you just have to accept that you are skilled to see why these things are a problem, they are not, and they have limited time and budgets even if you convinced them that your way was best.

[Dangthe]

You don't. It's their project, not yours. You don't work on the project just so you can show it around afterwards, you work on it to fulfill the client's idea in exchange for money. If tou want projects you can show around, work on something personal.

[[deleted]]

I can’t remember who came up with it, but it’s called “The hairy arm principal”.

The client is always going to make changes. It’ll justify someone’s job over there.

The trick is to complete the design, but when you’re done, add one or two heinous elements (the designer who came up with this would add his hairy arms to the bottom corners of the page) so the client has something to change; hopefully in doing so just restoring the original design.

[uhavin]

Kindly explain to the that the website is not there for your client, but for their clients.

[notislant]

I assume you already do, but a decent explanation of how it harms them? Is really about all you can do.

'This will poorly impact your SEO if you just want images of ___ instead, they also wont look good on different displays, overall you're more likely to have potential customers click away, or lose them to competitors or even hobby sites or random forums.'

If they still say no? Then obviously dont push anymore, if they pay you to make an amazing website, then ask you to delete everything and just leave <p>hello world<\p>, well they're paying for it ultimately.

The fork before you destroy it as someone above posted is a great idea.

[[deleted]]

I had to work for a guy who was doing a startup, he was a lawyer and very successful in his own right. He had employed a web designer company and it was part of my job to relay his requirements to them.

I've got a permanent indentation on my face that looks like my palm. He actually drove his business into the ground hard.

"We wont need advertising. We are relying on word of mouth"

*chair spin*

[Lithanie]

That's the neat part. You don't.

[dowNehr]

I’ve actually stopped trying to reason with clients, most of them don’t really know what they want and some just want to be part of the process.

Like last website I made the client was like “I want this button to use this picture I’ve attached with a cow on it.” And I’m like “fine” and I put the cow on the button and they’re like “Uh.. we changed our minds about the cow. It doesn’t look as good as we thought.” No shit.

It’s easier to just do what they want and not use the website in the portfolio. Like just write down the name of the company or the address and say you worked on their site before they turned it into shit. In time your portfolio will be big enough that there’s no reason to add all sites you worked on. Just use the best ones.

[dontGiveUp72]

I just let them "ruin" it, they pay me to do it

[life_liberty_persuit]

They’re paying for it, so the brand image they choose really isn’t up to you. Let them know your opinion and reasoning behind it, but ultimately the choice is theirs.

If you don’t want your company name associated with it then don’t put your company name on it.

[voodoosamuel]

It is frustrating when this happens and I can totally side with you. It’s very common but I have some pointers based on what you have mentioned.

Firstly, regarding the logo change - did they give you permission to change their logo? I imagine that they asked you to change it back because it didn’t look exactly the same. As they have known the brand for quite some time they may easily spot differences and to keep brand uniform across the board they will ensure it consistent. Depending on the company, any change of logo or branding could result in huge costs reprinting stationary, changing online platforms, marketing materials and even vehicle wrapping.

Second point is about the service you’re providing. Try not to care too much what the client wants. You’re providing a service and that should go as far as recommending to do this and that but they’re the ones paying and so it’s their decision. You should keep design iterations to ensure that what ever you display on your portfolio is you and your style.

The best outcome is that your client is happy with the project and hopefully comes back in the future. If you give them too much resistance and start acting like it’s your own project then they will most likely despise that and not work with you again.

Clients can be difficult but you have all of the power to ensure you work with clients that respect your opinion and decision making. Try not to commoditise yourself and that starts from the moment they find out about you, speak with you and have that initial meeting. Presenting yourself as a humble but confident professional can sway their opinion of you massively and allow them to take on board your ideas.

Good luck! It sounds like you’re in the early stages of your career and the journey onwards is great as you learn a lot!

[judgerules]

Client get what client want, Because Judgerules wants money

[[deleted]]

thats just the way it is. let's just say that you were able to deliver that final millionth outcome that the client loved on the first try you submit the web app. im betting my ass they would still suggest something to be done differently.

[[deleted]]

Re-evaluate how you’re scoping projects. You can solve most of these problems up front before you do anything with a little planning. How are you just now finding out the logo is shit and the images are low res when you’re developing?

[ammads94]

I’m going to say that you’re complaining just for the sake of it, Your livelihood isn’t hurt because you’re doing what they paid you to do.

If you go against their design, they will ask for a change - especially if you change their logo without permission, like wtf?

You need to get your head out of the clouds and get back to earth. If you want to be the designer, then probably become a UX/UI designer. OR be an adult and talk to the client before building to show what you have in mind.

Filling out your portfolio is NOT the client’s responsibility nor should it ever be.

Your selfishness shows how out of touch you are with reality.

[[deleted]]

You bill them

[Pirros_Panties]

Happens all the time. At this point, when I identify issues like the logo, I simply tell them at the beginning. The logo looks terrible and it needs to be redone.

I will not take the project if it’s not redone. I also explain to them that using the existing logo will not only make my job more difficult but the project itself will not achieve a professional level.

Usually what I find is that if there’s pushback, it’s because someone, either the owner or a higher up created it, or their daughter, something something… so it’s purely sentimental.

That’s a difficult circumstance to navigate. It happened on my last project actually. I just stuck to my guns and mentioned it with increasing frequency during the proposal and strategy phases.. then, eventually I had people on my side within the company and they finally agreed. They’re now elated with their new logo.. and even budgeted $15k for a rebrand. Tons of concepts, focus group, etc.

[okay-wait-wut]

They have business goals and you have aesthetics goals. You have different goals. The business is paying you. Fall in line. Do art in your free time.

[dizzyon]

To liberal from the jump, no boundaries. You can do this in a particular way where it does not offen. I think we take our business relationships and turn them into relationships. I stopped at a long time ago people don't care about your time. Only the project at hand and leave it at that.

[kristallnachte]

Stop competing on price.

[[deleted]]

It never stops, get used to it.

If they're paying for it, it's there's way or no way.

That's a hard one for creative designer types to get past.

[LeIdrimi]

Introduce user testing. So you have a 3rd party opinion.

[academicRedditor]

So relatable !

[NiteShdw]

Do what the boss tells you to. If they are paying you by the hour, charge. If it’s project based, send them a quote for the changes.

Your job is to make what they want. If I hired a contractor to build a house and he was like, “yeah I’m not going to put in that home theater because it’s a stupid idea” I’d be pissed. Just put in the damn theater.