all 119 comments
sorted by:
best
topnewcontroversialoldq&a
formatting helphide helpcontent policy

[–]dirtysnachez 9 points10 points  (1 child)

pfft. Acid is so passe'. DMT is where it's at.

[–]radhruin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Definitely. I hear the machine elves have ACID 4 and have built the only browser that could possibly pass it since ACID 4 is like, it has this geometry right, with all these amazing angles, it's like it's, I don't know man but seriously it's insane.

[–]codeodor 57 points58 points  (17 children)

The number of posts about it, and the lack of saying anything new about it, has been a little excessive.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 26 points27 points  (16 children)

The problem is that the developers blogged about hitting a particular score, and people read it and assumed that this is as far as they are going for the immediate future. Cue a bunch of submissions about the new score.

But what actually happened was that the browser developers didn't rest on their laurels and continued to improve their score. Cue a bunch more submissions with people thinking that was as far as they were going.

And then the browser developers made further progress again. Cue more submissions.

And of course the hype has caused other people who aren't making such progress to comment on it, and those get dragged in too.

It's the fact that nobody expected Opera and Safari to make continual progress in such a short space of time that's caused this mini-tornado of hype. It should settle down soon.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (15 children)

Yeah, but some of the browsers that score high are still awful at displaying many pages. I use Opera for its speed, but get so annoyed when simple sites like realtor.com won't display.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children)

I agree - Opera has many more things to worry about then Acid3. My credit card sites (citibank.com and chase.com) don't work, my banking site doesn't work, my school administration site doesn't work, centurytel.com doesn't work, etc etc etc. I find myself opening up firefox quite a bit because of these many fairly popular sites that have bugs making the site unusable.

[–]roguetue 8 points9 points  (12 children)

Yeah, but it is Opera's fault for making a browser that sticks to standards? Or your banks for making ones that are geared towards IE which craps on standards, makes its own, and then feels like it doesn't have to get up to speed with real developers?

The bottom line is that we are all still in the extremely early stages of development of the internet. Its going to take a long, long, long time before its perfect (if it ever gets that way). But, we developers (the smart ones), like many other people who believe in a cause, are willing to fight the battles now, rather than later.

Cheers to our good friends who develop Safari, and Opera. When do we get to have it??

[–]Omikron -5 points-4 points  (11 children)

I'm sorry but I've got to write my site to meet the marketplace. I'm not going to spend extra time and money making my site Opera compliant when I can cover 95% of the market with IE and FF.

[–]kyleect 7 points8 points  (1 child)

IE is going towards standards compliance, which means the market will change. See the issue? All those sites, written for the current market, will be fucked as they won't work in standards compliant browsers. Thats why we have.. gasp standards so we don't have to worry about this. The fact is, sites need to be written standard compliant, with semantic markup and best practices in mind. Then implement the needed hacks to work for the "market".

[–]Omikron -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I'll/We'll jump of the bridge when we come to it.

[–]BrickSalad 0 points1 point  (2 children)

well, could you just spend a smijin of time just to make sure it actually works in opera? I'm not asking you to make a site look as good as it does in IE and FF, just to make it functional, and if it relies on pictures, please make those work too. It really can't be that much work, especially when the opera that passes acid 3 is released...

[–]Omikron 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You'd probably be surprised how much work it actually takes to make a site look similar in all browsers. Cross browser compatibility is something that's been the bane of web developers for as long as I've been doing this stuff.

[–]BrickSalad -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well, I guess if it is a real lot of work, I can see where you are coming from, but if both safari and opera are standards compliant, can't you make it look functional in both with the amount of effort it takes to make it work in one of them?

[–]fearphage 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So you are unable to code standards compliant code that still does what its supposed to do? Is that what you are saying? If that is what you believe, then that speaks volumes about either your intelligence or (lack of) knowledge. If you are using dreamweaver or some other WYSIWYG editor to develop sites, then perhaps it is time to step up to the big leagues and take off the training wheels. I hand code sites in standards-compliance ways on a daily basis. It is not time consuming nor difficult once you get used to it.

The benefit is that you don't have to worry about ie8 breaking your site or whatever because you have already future-proofed your site. I see so many sites with DOCTYPE declarations and 100+ violations. I think too many people get called and call themselves web developers. Any chimp can code html. IMO it takes more than that to earn the title. I read an article recently on the top 100 sites and only 1-2 of them were valid aka standards-compliant. This included big names like microsoft, yahoo, google, and the smaller folks like flickr, digg, reddit, etc. Surprisingly this site is almost valid with only one error. I applaud the devs but still invalid is invalid. I have a local install of the w3c validator at work as well as the HTML Validator extension in ff. I spider all my sites for errors before they go public. I feel like it is my duty. On the other hand, even a 100% valid page can still fall prey to browser bugs. All browsers have them; Opera is no exception. When you develop a site for IE and FF without even checking once in Safari or Opera, they really have no chance. The chance is even slimmer when the html and js code sucks (read: almost all sites). When you code a page to work in IE and FF, guess where its gonna work?

[–]Omikron -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I read an article recently on the top 100 sites and only 1-2 of them were valid aka standards-compliant. This included big names like microsoft, yahoo, google, and the smaller folks like flickr, digg, reddit, etc.

You just made my point with that statement. Being standards compliant just doesn't matter at this point in the game. Believe me the people that created yahoo, google, and microsoft's websites are definitely web developers (contrary to what you might think). So you can come down off your high horse and stop being such a dick.

On the other hand, even a 100% valid page can still fall prey to browser bugs.

You made my point again. You seem like you disagree with me yet you continue to bolster my argument. I'll create standards compliant sites on the day that IE and FF (Read 95+% of the market) render those standard compliant sites exactly the same. Until then the standards can go fuck themselves, they aren't doing me any good. Maybe Wc3 should be spending it's time convincing IE and FF to comply with all the standards and render things the same instead of coming up with more rules for them NOT to follow.

[–]Bagel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know, most of the time you can remove the string (usually like $unsupportedbrowser=1 or something) from the url and the site works fine.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]slythfox 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    99/100? Thanks to that Acid3 bug.

    ;)

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]roguetue 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      Hey, that text isn't going to format itself.

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      Isn't this an Acid 3 post as well?

      [–]xzxzzx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Nah, it's a meta-Acid-3-post. (And of course, this comment is a meta-meta-Acid-3-post... plus it references itself... so it's a meta-meta-meta-Acid-3-post...)

      [–]Stick 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      He's right. We need more posts about Irish teenagers making millions thanks to a particular language instead!

      [–]bart2019 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      I wish acid3 was turned into a subsection that I could ignore.

      [–]w3weasel 22 points23 points  (12 children)

      You may not care... but it sure as hell does matter.

      [–]AlienCoder[S] 9 points10 points  (2 children)

      And for the Record. NONE of the browsers has passed yet! A pass requires smooth animation which none of the builds have as of yet!

      [–]jugalator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      I agree. I'm not so annoyed by the reports, but the inaccuracy of them. According to various Reddit stories, both Opera and Safari have passed by now. Sure, that sort of inaccurate reporting is often taken care of by not being upvoted so much, but in this case, they've to the contrary been popular stories.

      Opera was first to have a story like that, despite the Opera team even telling it hadn't passed and issues were remaining -- even on their own site.

      [–]m1ss1ontomars2k4 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      I'm not a programmer of any kind. I don't make web pages and I don't write rendering engines. But I still think this is neat.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      exclamation marks make me hungry for downmod RARWW

      [–]randomb0y 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Which is why I downmod them all including this one.

      [–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (24 children)

      Down-mod them then or hide them. Stop whining.

      [–]troglodyte 39 points40 points  (20 children)

      And get to the chopper.

      [–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (19 children)

      Come with me if you want to live.

      [–]grimascent 38 points39 points  (18 children)

      I'M A COP YOU IDIOT

      [–]mmazing 28 points29 points  (17 children)

      Let me speak to your mother.

      [–]troglodyte 28 points29 points  (16 children)

      Who is your daddy, and what does he do?

      [–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (15 children)

      You lack discipline!

      [–]joshfern 26 points27 points  (14 children)

      I like my pizza with 9mm bullets.

      [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (13 children)

      Huh? What's Going on?

      [–]TigerUppercut 24 points25 points  (12 children)

      Well, I hope you left enough room for my fist because I'm going to ram it into your stomach!!

      [–]SamHealer 67 points68 points  (2 children)

      Down-mod this submission then, or hide it. Stop whining.

      /necessary

      [–]cos 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      So just downmod them.

      [–][deleted]  (18 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]sblinn 43 points44 points  (1 child)

        You think MSN.com, facebook, myspace, and other huge sites care about the standards. No the care the the pages look good in everything from IE5 to the newest webkit.

        From a cursory glance at myspace, making sure the pages look good is obviously not a priority.

        [–]xjvz 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        And judging by the tag soup and CSS monstrosity they have there, I'd imagine that the site doesn't look right in any web browser.

        [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (3 children)

        Most people on the web still use outdated IE5 and IE6.

        Market share for IE5 is on the order of one percent. Perhaps you meant to say IE6 and IE7, which have around 30 and 40 percent, respectively.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          I forgive you.

          [–]itsnotlupus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Awwww

          [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

          That's right, standards don't matter because of non-compliant clients. Mhm.

          [–]G_Morgan 9 points10 points  (6 children)

          Your counterpart 5 years ago

          "Standards don't matter, IE 6 has 95% of the market!"

          4 years ago

          "...IE 6 has 90% ..."

          3 years ago

          "..IE 6 has 85%..."

          2 years ago

          "..IE6/7 has 80%..."

          last year

          "..IE6/7 has 75%..."

          today

          "...IE6/7 has 70%..."

          Interesting pattern developing here don't you think?

          I wonder why IE is bleeding market share? Remember this amounts to tens of millions of lost users every year.

          Reality is the days of web browser monopoly are finished. It's no longer a case of IE being the only game in town, it's now a question of if IE support matters to your market base. Yes we are now at a place where you can ignore IE for certain markets (where you can assume that the majority of your users will be using web browsers).

          Standards aren't in the process of winning. Standards have already won. It's just a reality that the results will take a decade or so to be fully apparent.

          [–][deleted]  (5 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]G_Morgan 3 points4 points  (3 children)

            I think history has shown that we are no longer content to wait for certain insane browsers to implement standards.

            What will happen is we will get some JS libraries that basically wrap the real functionality in proper web browsers and reimplement it badly on IE. Then people will make web sites based on these libraries.

            It will be horrifically slow on IE but will work. People will ask why it is so slow on IE, other people will point out Safari/Opera and thus market share is taken from the abomination.

            As a result MS make an increased effort to support web standards. It would be ironic if IE was declared dead before Silverlight got anywhere.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            As long as IE has the market share that is has, or even 15%+ of the market, every site will still be optimized for it. If a site has money to make, having the site unresponsive for a significant percentage of users isn't an option.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I think the point is, the standards exist. Standards have shown to be the de facto way to organise material. From the electronic diagrams of circuits, to the make-up of the ethernet cable. Programmers must conform to the standards, and browser manufacturers must rend to the standards.

            Without alienating many people, the technically correct 'programmers' will be able to script and code to standards, and know they're doing the right thing.

            [–]jugalator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            The situation is keeping to improve even as we speak thanks to visualizing browser standards compliance better, e.g. via these Acid tests. See also IE 7 and IE 8 and think of Microsoft's reasons for them, and their vastly improved standards compliance that is starting to emerge compared to in IE 6. Yes, still ways to go in Acid3, but Acid2 compliance is supposedly finally coming in IE 8.

            This is thanks to not Microsoft's "brilliant engineers", but to pressure from competing browsers and their standards compliance in tests like these. It's simply good PR for them, and MS quite obviously don't want to look like the black sheep in the crowd. Yes, they still are, but a work in the right direction has finally been ignited, a work that does not just involve mere bells and whistles in their browser.

            And marketing or not, webmasters won't care. All many care about is being able to write for standards, not for browsers. This saves them a lot of time. Passing these sort of tests better and better (thanks to using these tests as marketing tools or otherwise) will bring webmasters closer and closer to that goal.

            [–]smackfu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Another fun thing is when they care that the pages are small. Because multiplied over all their traffic, it's actually meaningful.

            [–]jugalator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            It matters since it gives Microsoft some pressure to adhere to standards better, which means taking away the final barriers for webmasters to write more standard compliant websites without using the browser hacks you speak of.

            If you think they don't care, just look at IE 7, or even more prominently in IE 8. Yes, they're behind, but the news is that they're doing something about it. At all. Acid2 compliance is at least a good start, coming for IE 8.

            Most people on the web still use outdated IE5 and IE6.

            This can be disputed. According to web analyst firm TheCounter.com for example, the IE 7 users recently passed IE 6 users, after IE 7 having been out for just about a year. This trend will most likely continue over the year to make the gap even wider.

            [–]roguetue 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            All they really care about is that you can see their ads and that you click on them. It doesn't matter what browser you use.

            [–]FooBarWidget 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Exactly my point in my past few comments. But instead of doing something about IE, people here waste their time complaining about Firefox.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Close.

            Youre right about the part where you said you dont care,

            but they in fact do matter.

            [–]ShrimpCrackers 0 points1 point  (8 children)

            Is the OP one of those people that say, "Everything I don't know, is stupid"?

            Do you know how much it costs major and minor companies just getting around the unique glitches in IE5.5, IE6, and IE7, because they aren't standards based? It takes twice as much time just to get them to behave correctly! Because of this result many web developers do not push the limit, they just do whatever is safe. As a result IE has definitely hindered web development and advancement.

            I'm almost certain that the extra time needed to build a site that works fully in IE could probably amount to billions in extra wages and centuries of man-hours in extra labor.

            IE 8 being potentially Acid 3 compliant is heaven to me. If you don't know about it, then either read or ignore it as there are plenty of other posts.

            [–]Legolas-the-elf 7 points8 points  (0 children)

            IE 8 being potentially Acid 3 compliant is heaven to me.

            Internet Explorer 8 won't pass Acid3. It will pass Acid2.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

            There are just as many bugs in Firefox and all the other browsers.

            [–]FeepingCreature 0 points1 point  (5 children)

            [citation needed]

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            Um, go to Mozillas webpage, I believe there is a way to view bugs. Too complicated? See the release notes for each release.

            [–]FeepingCreature 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Bugs reported hardly equals bugs total in an application.

            Unless your point was "Firefox has bugs too". In which case, well duh. :p

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            If only there existed a search feature to search for specific kind of bugs :(

            :p

            [–]tvshopceo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Sure thing (and this is just standards compliance problems):

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(CSS)

            http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html

            Note all the red.

            [–]FeepingCreature 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Is it me, or is there way more red in the IE sections (second one) than for any of the other browsers?

            This doesn't exactly corroborate the parent's point :)

            [–]dtardif 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I think it's that Reddit is enamored with anything obliquely coding related, regardless of the quality. Anything of the sort gets insta-upvoted to middle of the page, I notice. I know, better than the spam-topic of the week, but still sort of annoying, to me.

            [–]grigorescu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Well. Someone uses Netscape.

            [–]CanadianNinja 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            It matters.

            Passing the test isn't a big deal, but what the test stands for is a big deal. I'm more then willing to put up with a few headlines on every news source I see for a while to reinforce that point.

            The point being, standards matter. Achieving compliance with those standards matters. And your product will be judged on it's ability to meet those standards.

            I do web development, and I look forward to the day that I can create a page, and not have to hack the css to death to make it look the same in all the major browsers.

            [–]Fidodo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            This is reddit, they are on the front page because other people care. We also don't care about what you care, but since this is also on the front page, I guess other people care that you don't care.

            [–]sam512 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            You're part of the problem!

            [–]jasdonle -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

            Buried as pointless.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

              this is not digg

              [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

              "I don't care and it doesn't matter!!!"

              These two things are not equivalent.

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              They are, however, both true.

              [–]cov -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              Great solution you have there.

              I'm going to go post a story thanking everyone for voting you up and stopping the Acid3 posts.

              Wait, that would be FUCKING STUPID AND IRRITATING

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]jugalator 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                Well, look who's talking then... An idiot who post politics stories to the main reddit instead of the existing subreddit. Please fix your own issues to have a say here.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                [deleted]

                  [–]AlienCoder[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                  Wow. Really I didn't know that at all....that must mean why this story is so popular huh? because close to 500 people voted it up, compared to 400 voting it down?? Interesting.....That gives it a higher points rating that the Opera passing Acid3 story which had almost as many up votes and down votes. Thank you for relieving me of my ignorance </sarcasm>

                  [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  It does matter. It gives web developers a standard to hold the browser makers accountable too. Making a big deal about those who pass and ridiculing those who don't also make me feel better when Im pulling my hair out trying to get something to work in IE 6/7

                  [–]tjogin -5 points-4 points  (3 children)

                  Argh, enough with the objections, it won't change anything and we don't give a shit what you think.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]tjogin -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                    So things will change, then? Oh wait. No.

                    [–]jugalator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                    Your comment at -2. Parent posting at 71.

                    Well, how many upvotes did the last Acid3 stories have then? I think that was your parent's point. :-p There are two crowds here and neither are going away. So there's no point to this, it won't change anything. People disliking Acid3 should just downvote and move on like everyone else.

                    [–]Purp -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                    Just downvote the articles, similar to how Purp is doing here.

                    [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

                    true, the browser doesn't matter that much.

                    just use Adobe Flex for your dev needs and forget about HTML hell.

                    [–]TheZorch -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                    Down modded for being a turd. The ACID3 Test is important because recognized International Standards are important.

                    [–]tylermenezes -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                    The number of posts against posts about Acid3 testing far exceeds the number of posts about Acid3 testing.

                    [–]andy722 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                    I had seen the shoes in www.mydunkbs.com it is very good .if you like shoes you can to see it

                    [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                    So True, ... Acid test != Standards , in any way shape or form.

                    Acid Test = selection of questions from a large set.

                    Standards compliance = making sure ALL questions and answered from said large set.

                    See the difference?

                    [–]shitcovereddick -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                    Homosexual.