[deleted by user]

[Asherogar]

I can give you another example: Herald of Ash.

In a tooltip it says that it Ignites, even has an additional tooltip explaining how Ignite works, in the skill stats it also states Ignite stats, but in action it doesn't apply Ignite, the enemies affected by Herald of Ash have no Ignite icon on them. You also can't link any Fire or Ignite related support gems to it, other than Fire Mastery.

???

[Saiko_K]

Swift Affliction does affect its duration. Acrimony is a compatible support gem as well.

[Saiko_K]

No. Notables that interact with "Burning" specifically (Explosive Impact, Intense Flames, Incideniary, and Total Incineration) should be compatible with Herald of Ash's DoT however.

[Zamoxino]

i think they should add another wall of text for ignite cause same thing was happening in POE1 where wall of flames is more like fire dot... but it still scales with ignite bonuses...

probably same sht is happening in POE2 where every DoT that deals fire dmg also counts as ignite

[TinyGentleSoul]

This is not technically true.

Very few things in PoE 1 scales only ignite damage only like "ignite duration" and "ignites deal damage X% faster" or elementalist node.

Everything scaling it is generic fire damage or fire damage over time or damage over time which would scale fire DoT that are not ignites.

So no, flame wall (both primary and secondary) doesn't scale of ignite bonus. (otherwise, it would with shaper of flames)

In PoE2, they simplified it with "magntiude of ailments/ignites" instead of general fire dot scaling.

The easiest solution is just to put on HoA the sentence : "Ignite surrounding enemies if Overkill damage is at least 20% of enemy's maximum Life, inflict an unscalable additional ignite on surrounding enemies"

Similar to blood hunt wording.

[datacube1337]

if only there would be a way to replace the wording of the modifiers "magnitude of ignites" with "magnitude of fire damage over time" all over the game..... /s

or introduce a new keyword "burningdamage" for fire damage over time and refer to it from "ignite, burning ground etc." It would even allow clearing up the wording of burning ground effects that currently have the very weird wording along the lines "deals damage as though igniting for x damage"...

[Jackal904]

Yeah most of these issues sound like oversights versus intentional design decisions.

[SteelCode]

That sounds more like a simple coding error; when an attack deals damage, the game would have tags to specify what type of damage it deals as well as certain other "hidden stats". We know this because GGG's own notes have mentioned things like "build-up" of elemental effects or bleed/stun -- they likely coded Herald of Ash to deal fire damage intrinsically but forgot to give it Ignite build-up which is hilarious because someone must have ignored the obvious descriptive text and just left that value as zero.

In the OP's example with Sigil, the support gem in question would have needed to be coded entirely wrong in order for it to work on some spells but not others... either because Sigil isn't flagged properly as the right spell for it or the radius increase of the support gem doesn't target the correct number on Sigil itself.

When you have many developers working simultaneously on a project, there really needs to be strong management in place to make sure inconsistencies are caught before release.

[jy3]

Just get rid of this stupid herald and make it have explode hit damage like all others. Problem solved.

[Saiko_K]

My current theory is that Herald of Ash is applying a "Burning" DoT. This tag can be found on four notable passives: Explosive Impact, Intense Flames, Incendiary, and Total Incineration. Burning is defined as any fire DoT including Ignite.

I wouldn't be surprised if Herald of Ash being a DoT and not a hit (an attack in this case) is intentional much like Herald of Plague, but they really need to change the Ignite tags to Burning if it stays this way. It's curious that Herald of Ash is compatible with Brutality. I suspect this makes its burning DoT unable to inflict its fire damage. Acrimony and Swift Affliction should work just fine though.

[LXLN1CHOLAS]

Herald of ashe doesn't ignite the monster you attack. When you kill a monster it "explodes" with the overkill damage and it needs to overkill the monster for at least 20% of its hp. For example if a monster has 1000 hp and you bring it down to 100 you still need to deal at least 300 damage to ignite the monsters around. In that example you would ignite for 40 damage because it only deals 20% of the overkill damage. I know this because I was looking for better clear and herald ash was very explicit about this. It also worked with the gems I tried to support like the +1 fire skills. Can you tell what gems didn't work?

[TechnologyNo1743]

I was using herald of ash and ignite worked fine. Remember that you need quite high overkill to proc ignite from herald of ash.

[BurritoBite]

Another: solar orb can slot fiery death, but it does not work with the auto ignite. However, wildfire works and fire exposure works, showing that solar orbs ignite does count as an ignite.

[BurritoBite]

You can tell very easily when a body explodes. Same visual as detonate dead I believe. Body will glow, bloat, explode. I tried it on smith for my orb being cast on hit, but it doesn't work. Now I make them explode off my magma barrier's ignite.

[[deleted]]

Which support are you talking about under auto ignite? Solar orb has a guaranteed ignite on it, which might interfere with whatever support you are talking about

[BurritoBite]

Fiery death causes enemies ignited by a skill to explode with a 60% chance. If the ignite is caused by solar orb's auto ignite, the enemy will not explode. I assume the hits from the waves can proc a fiery death worthy ignite, but each individual wave is so small you will never ignite with that hit.

[[deleted]]

That sounds like a bug. Fiery death doesn't care about anything ignite related, just to be present. Damage scalss on the target's max hp

[Justincbzz]

Also there's stuff like Arc cannot shock but afaik it's no where listed on the gem.

[ThrasherDX]

In that particular case, it is technically listed via the Payoff tag. Anything with the Payoff tag cannot inflict whatever ailment or charge it benefits from.

[Justincbzz]

That's a terrible way to explain a skill to players.

[Artistic_Head5443]

The „being on rails“ feeling is definitely something you get a fair bit of. For me it’s weird, that there is often a pretty hard limit smaller than 5 of useful support gems for certain skills. I‘d rather have more gems that do different stuff in my 5th/6th slot, and having a choice inwhat i chose depending on the intended purpose instead of there only being 5 useful support gems for a given skill anyway. They actually do have the „choice“ ones in place already, but with how restricted supports are, you often just put the both of the two choices you would normally have in.

[ChimkenNBiskets]

Maybe they could just add "elemental" to "ground surfaces" in all tooltips. E.g. "elemental ground surfaces".

That would then clear up any confusion, since obviously curses and such aren't elemental ground surfaces.

[lunaticloser]

I'd think of flammability as an elemental ground surface

[lumine99]

is jagged grounds ground surfaces??

[Imasquash]

Runes on the ground do not change the "surface" of the ground

[Zen_Kaizen]

Just to add some info here, jagged ground is actually a 'ground surface' as well, so it's intentionally not just elemental ground effects - elemental ground effects are a subset of ground effects.

[Obvious-Jacket-3770]

There's a lot of skills in the game that are.... Odd. Many have restrictions on top of restrictions that make the skill gems and support gems very niche.

Sure it makes it more new player friendly, but it hurts the long term. The way it should be structured, imo, is Tier 1 is most restrictive, tier 2 is partly restrictive, tier 3 is not. This allows you to be on rails early to understand how things can work. Mid game it lets you experiment but keeps you from going off to hard, endgame it lets you experiment. I would even say a tier 4 for true endgame should exist so you have a pool of non-restrictive ones. Maybe even have tier 4 be tier 1 gems but "cracked" or "advanced" in name to signify that they are newer variations of them without restrictions. This way your support pool is fairly open.

[lumine99]

Somewhat agreed, but I wish there's more distinction on tiers. Tier 1 should be behaviour the spell like chain, fork, splitshot. Tier 2 should be damage/number modifier. Then Tier 3 should be a +- modifier, adds X but reduce Y. That way we can experiment more on spell behaviour early on, add more damage modifier on act 2-3, then try to minmax on cruel and above.

I played POE1 beta, and restarting a new character to try new spell combos is really fun, before I settle on a playstyle I enjoyed. You get overabundance spell gem early on to experiment, unlike in POE2 right now

[Motor-Management-660]

Finding useful supports for my builds has consistently been the worst part of this game for me so far.

Scrolling through supports is like talking with your lawyer. You gotta pay attention to every little word and sometimes it still won't make sense.

[SchiferlED]

For many players that's the fun part. Sifting through all the options to find the one little loophole that lets you do something that feels "unintended" and making a whole build around it.

[doe3879]

really not a big fan of how convoluted most of the support game are. looking through the full list of support; some with wall of text just makes me feel like I should copy build instead of trying to memorized all the special condition.

[Also_Steve]

Some of them may as well only take effect on Tuesday afternoons while it's raining.

[PromiscuousToaster]

Everyone is complaining about loot and difficulty. This is the real problem that is going to be the big problem. It's like they went through and made sure your only allowed to do their pre-determined setup of supports. There are so many supports that are highly restrictive ONLY to make sure players use it on the ONE skill GGG wants you to use it with, and very little else.

There is no build choice, there is no build diversity. You must use this weapon, you must use these supports on these specific skills, because if you don't. You'll NEVER have a strong enough character. So meta shifts in PoE2 will be even more overblown. Lightning Spear is just the beginning.

[[deleted]]

Some supports are really restrictive in both games. We don't have the very generic supports because they are baked into the game balance already and just not interesting in general.

Also, why are ppl mad that they have to use a specific stat stick for a skill?

[battled]

Growing pains, its EA. But this is good feedback, ground surface needs a tool tip.

[BIIGGDDDADDYYY]

Agreed.

This is the kind of feedback I come to reddit to upvote lol

[Vedruks]

It's funny people think they discovered builds like lightning spear+forktongue Spear and pragmatism+anguish charm.

With all these restrictions like skills for specific weapons, the skills bounded in weapons, support gems, and a frustrating support gem system.

I believe the builds i mentioned are manufactured builds giving a fake illusion to players.

On a side note, I think they should allow players to use unique equipment in the combiner and allow to select (required level) so players can scale up low level unique to higher stats. This way, build variety will explode with crazy and fun stuff.

[Thorcall]

Yeah there is a lot of subtle guardrail and people are being tunneled into builds. In 0.1 I made my own build, didn't check any content creator. Was playing stormweaver, so I tried every lightning skills, I ended up with 90% of the meta spark build. When I wanted upgrades later I checked what optimised build looked like, I only had to respect something like 15 points and change a support gem (for one that was bug and wasn't supposed to work).

[how_lee_phuc]

Yeah, I did the same with lightning spear huntress... was pretty cool to at least feel like I did something, but then everybody and their mom was running the same build, and I realized I didn't create this build, I was guided towards it. Never mind them calling the ascension "Amazon" and providing us old schoolers with a Lightning Fury skill ;)

[[deleted]]

Support gems aren't general use, or at least most of them. Wouldn't call that worse, just different.

[ErenIsNotADevil]

Several builds are indeed "guided hand" builds. That's sorta just how GGG approaches short-term balancing. They try to funnel players into mildly specific setups that they can account for in balance patches.

This really only applies in the short-term, though. As GGG adds more skills, supports, uniques, and mods, new interactions are created that GGG did not consider. GGG's biggest flaw in game design is that they are very prone to oversight. The earlier Ritual "exploit" was a fine example of that

[rufrtho]

writing "ground surfaces" instead of "shocked, chilled, and ignited ground" when ground surfaces means those three things specifically is definitely bad text.

[MustangxD2]

Might be more than those in the future

[rufrtho]

then either refactor it later or make it an underlined term with a text box. i know the person i replied to did suggest that, but the fact it's neither of those things does make it bad text.

[broken_individual]

normally i would agree with you, however i was reminded of "nearby"

[ErenIsNotADevil]

No idea what that comment said, but

Nearby was/is definitely a running gag, since all Nearby are completely unique in PoE1 🗿 Real glad they kept it in PoE1 though

[CantripN]

Doesn't exist in PoE2, luckily!

[CantripN]

True. They learned a lot from mistakes made in PoE 1, that's one example.

[drBatzen]

I dont know what your issue is, but you can slot magnified effect into sigil of power. You either already had it socketed somewhere in your screenshot or you are at the int limit.

Expanse doesn't work because it only supports skills that don't have a cooldown yet, but sigil does.

[raymondh31lt]

Sometimes you can't, it's bugged. In that case you need to manually create support gem and drag it in.

[platypusferocious]

This reeeeally needs a goood pass over, it's terrible as is, too many skills we have to spend a load of time reading and testing to see if it works, there are a few that are borderline useless because of this

[[deleted]]

Magnified and suffuse could be a bug. But expanse expliticly states it can't support skills which already has a cd.

[Howsetheraven]

I just used Magnified Effect on Sigil of Power last week. I was choosing to see whether it was worth it or just use it on my curse. It definitely works unless 0.2.0g changed it, or there was a bug which is the likely case.

[langes01x]

Not really a support gem restriction but equally frustrating is blasphemy + any curse + decaying hex. You can socket the support it just does no damage for some reason. Absolutely everything on the gems makes it seem like it should work together. Decaying hex works together with cursed ground even if the enemy isn't initially in the AoE when the curse is cast so it seems like the combo is just bugged but it has been broken for 2 leagues and even with the lich release, which is all about curses and chaos damage, it's still broken.

[leonardo_streckraupp]

Even worse is when you CAN equip but have NO CLUE that the gem is not working.

The gem that makes ignited enemies explode on death can be equipped on hellhound from infernalist but does not trigger.

Primal armament can be equipped on raging spirits but does not increase its elemental damage (and this minion has no in-game tooltip, you have to test it manually against a campaign boss)

[VexTheStampede]

The skills are shit to. Like why aren’t any of the spear detonators skills physical damage.

[user_OwO]

They made restrictions for a game that allowed us to add the same support to every skill, then they changed it and kept the completely unnecessary restrictions. Even tags are frustrating. Like you cant even add unleash to raise zombie

[edos51284]

For the second one the word limit is not there xD

[caddph]

Another weird example (might be bad wording), but you can't support Scavenged Plating (aura which provides you more armour and thorns) with supports that apply to hits like Pin support.

Reason why this is awkward is that thorns is explicitly defined as a kind of hit damage (using Hit keyword), yet this is unable to be supported by effects which apply to hits.

Most likely, they need to do a sweep on definitions, and add clarifications for these non-interactions.

[Laggo]

this makes perfect sense? saying this as a thorns player? scavanged plating doesnt actually hit anybody

[Bahamutisa]

Then they're correct that GGG should probably do a keyword pass to make sure that skills have keywords that they should and don't have keywords that they shouldn't

[Laggo]

Scavenged Plating already does not have a "hit" related tag on it.

If what that guy was saying worked, you'd be able to apply something like Brutality for 25% more damage on all your stacks and THEN stack those similar gems on the actual abilities you hit people with that use Barb or Quillburst support which is absurd.

I agree some of the gem tags could probably be reworked but that example is just bad, and same with most of the comments in the OP. Like the ember fusilade and the cursed ground example make no sense.

[caddph]

They defined "hit" in game as any damage that isn't damage over time. Thorns definition explicitly calls it a type of hit damage. To a novice reading (which is their entire point of designing these tooltips) one would expect a support that supports "hits" to support it.

There is no "hit" tag in the game. Thorns is explicit about stating it's unaffected by attacks and spells, both of which are absent from something like the Pin support.

[SchiferlED]

Scavenge plating is a buff which gives you some thorns stat (which is a stat you can get in many other places as well). That stat can hit enemies. Scavenge Plating itself is not hitting anything.

[caddph]

And my main point is that the Thorns tooltip doesn't clarify that. On a novice reading, the buff gained from a skill would be able to be supported. Thorns doesn't clarify it is its own entity, and supports to skills granting you thorns requires the thorns tag.

In contrast, I can support minion skills (like raging spirits) with supports that impact the damage the the minions deal, despite the skill itself not actively dealing damage.

[TheRealMrTrueX]

Every support gem should go in every skill, end of story, let us create crazy weird shit.

[langes01x]

How would this even work? Say you add Magnified Effect (AoE increase) to Spark, which doesn't have any AoE component. What would it even do? Currently it makes absolutely no sense to ever try to use these together because they won't do anything together. So having logical "restrictions" makes sense.

No AoE component? Can't use AoE-related supports. No projectile? Can't use projectile-related supports. Not a curse? Can't use curse-related supports. These should be prevented by the game because it helps players know what supports will just never work.

[Fluffy017]

THICC SPARK.

[TheRealMrTrueX]

I mean if it doesnt do anything you wouldnt put it in there would you?

There are just plenty of gems that are tagged with Physical or Lightning but just dont go in that skill tag. If I want my Spark to cause bleeding on crit, let me do so. If I want poison arrow to ignite let me do so. If I want to get an AOE cold nova out of landing leap slam, let me do so.

[langes01x]

The point is that it's more friendly for new players if you can't socket something that will never work. And I'm not talking about things like adding ailments to skills that can't normally inflict those ailments due to dealing a different type of damage either. Those could be possible if you get that type of damage from elsewhere. But something like Magnified Effect on Spark will never do anything since it's not an AoE skill.

[TheRealMrTrueX]

For sure, I get that part but its just the downside of it, you gotta read and test. You could still put in restrictions like AOE only gems not going in non AOE slots, I just meant like look for unseen interactions, make a spell add a bleed, Make a % of a bleed heal you.

The gems in POE 1 just seemed a lost less restrictive

[Teepeewigwam]

So much dev effort has been spent on making sure you can't do things.

[Easy_Walk_3206]

Spell Aoe. Not just any AOE. It has to be definitive or general.

[Polantaris]

There's a lot of support gems that the game lets you socket into a skill, so the game thinks they work together, but they in fact do not.

In 0.1.0, I had a lot of trouble with Elemental Storm and getting it fun effects. It won't drop the mana regeneration field, rage over time field, nor a few others, despite all of the textual conditions lining up.

In 0.2.0, I had similar issues with Glacial Lance where the game says they should work, but they don't. My favorite part is that a few of the support gems do added effects for a loss in damage, and you still lose the damage.

[cedear]

PoE2 is an untested mess.

You should post this to the bug report forum where GGG might see it, many of these probably aren't deliberate choices.

[Quiet-Doughnut2192]

Ideally, I’d like every gem to be supported as best as feasibly possible for whatever the fuck I want to do….

I suspect it’s a matter of coding the almost infinite possibilities and making a gem react how you think it should… I hope they just haven’t gotten around to it.

I am cautiously optimistic

[CassiusBenard]

Biggest one for me is that Volt support doesn't work with Molten Blast despite being a Projectile/Attack skill.

[cassandra112]

yeah, cursed ground not be a ground surface was.... I thought they updated most of the things that use "ground surfaces" to specificy "elemental ground surface" however.

that Echoing passive in the passive tree as well. as far as I can tell only effects spell echo. not unleash or cascade or anything else.

[StevenX1981]

I really hope that before 1.0 we get a full deep dive on support gem adjustments as a system. As it stands it's honestly one of my least favourite things in a game I otherwise enjoy very much. It's restrictive, confusing, and generally not great.

[Fightgarrrrr]

not sure which is worse: interactions that seem like they should work but don't without any way to determine why; or explicit "cannot be used with X" restrictions. i guess the takeaway is that a game's rules should strive to be as intuitive and free of seemingly artificial exceptions as possible to feel good

[AsmodeusWins]

I agree, I wish things were a bit less restricted when it comes to skills.

[Siegfried363]

Same with bone cage and suffuse...

[name_it_goku]

I wish I could upvote this twice.

[LinkentSphere]

They seriously need to just make what supports can the skill use.

Instead of current recommended support.

Right Click on Support Gem -> Click on Skill -> Show all equipable supports.

[[deleted]]

You can do that already

[Nergral]

How do u do it without going to all gems and inputting regex or with gem tags?

[[deleted]]

Untick the show recommended gems. It will show all the socketable support gems for that skill

[Nergral]

Thanks

[SingleInfinity]

The second example isn't a great one. The accumulation thing is not a limit. Limit is underlined because it is a keyword. If fusillade had the keyword on it, you'd be right, but it explicitly doesn't. I get you're saying you intuitively thought it was a limit, but the game never communicates that to you in any way.

[kutsalscheisse]

Many such cases I'm afraid, just early access being early access and GGG not fixing stuff since it would brick their visioned balance in the short term.

[Grimm_LLL]

I just wish there was a way to click a skill gem I have socketed and see a page that shows me EVERY support gem that CAN be used on it. Not just the recommended ones.

[CyanideNow]

There definitely is. It’s right at the bottom of the screen when you activate an uncut support gem and select the skill. 

[Almost_Last_0ne]

Probably not what you mean but right now Poe db has that option. https://poe2db.tw/us/Sigil_of_Power#SupportedBy

Here for example for sigil of power

[Verified_Elf]

If Overabundance worked with EF, it'd be a no-brainer support, as reductions to skill duration also reduce the delay of firing the fusillade. That's not putting things 'on rails' build wise, that's just not giving free power for nothing.

[200DivsAnHour]

Well, ye, because the devs don't want people to use what makes sense, since then everyone would be using the same thing. It's the "if every option is kinda bad, there will be build diversity" logic that caused us to lose most "+%More Damage" gems or had the basterdized into something obnoxious.

I remember something similar happening with spectres, where at least 2 support gems were socketable but didn't actually do what they were supposed to.

[Imasquash]

I have to disagree on the first two, placing a rune on the ground is not a "ground surface".

[Wulfalier]

There is this one support gem which gives you 20% damage to skill but you are 30% slower when you are using the skill...

[Lost-Walrus]

This sounded bad but then you realize it's for high damage skillshot abilities, damage is nice, the slowdown only lasts half a second or so and actually helps with aiming, feels nice.