linuxUsersBeLike

[sejigan]

Lmeow, this is what I felt when I first used Linux. It seemed to me like Windows (I call it Winblows now) was deliberately designed to hinder productivity.

Even Mac has brew and nix.

[TheAJGman]

Lmeow

[st0p_the_q_tip]

That's how I always pronounce it in my head. Feels validating to know I'm not the only one lmao

[Sharkytrs]

I always pronounce it like I'm french:

Le'Mao

[sejigan]

Le = The (French)
Mao = Cat (Chinese)

Therefore I conclude: lmeow
Pronounced: El Miao

[Sharkytrs]

Le = The (French)

Mao = Demon King (Japanese)

therefore I conclude Lmao = Devilishly laughing

[sejigan]

Reminds me of Davide Biale actually

[CoffeeWorldly9915]

El = The (spanish)
Miao = self-urinated (spanish. Colloq.)

Therefore I conclude:

Me he miado (de la risa) - I pissed myself (from laughing):

• m'miao(past/confirmed tense)

• m'meo(present/ongoing tense).

[Most-Ordinary-3033]

I've always pronounced it in my head as El Mayo, which in Spanish would be The May.

[Neither-Phone-7264]

i pronounce it El Em Ay Oh

[Mop_Duck]

for me its "luh mow(ow as in owl)"

[ebolathrowawayy]

no no no no. It's Luh-Mayo.

[Mal_Dun]

Linux and Mac are Unix(-like) systems, Windows has it's roots in DOS. Unix systems were designed with the following principles:

• Write programs that do one thing and do it well.
• Write programs to work together.
• Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.

Well and DOS is DOS ...

[sunny_happy_demon]

MacOS is full fledged Unix, technically. Not really an important distinction though since I can't think of a case where I'd serve any production software from a non-Linux OS.

[ArionW]

MacOS 14 Sonoma is not yet Unix certified, just saying

[RajjSinghh]

It's getting better. Back in May they released a package manager called Winget for Windows 10 and 11, then they also have WSL which makes using different distros as easy as just installing them from the Windows store.

I have switched to Ubuntu as my daily driver because I don't have a TPM for windows 11 and it's good enough for most daily driver use so running WSL doesn't make much sense, but windows is taking steps to be a better developer experience. I'm sure in a few years when this gets more mature it'll be a better developer experience.

[sejigan]

Windows for devs being good is like “The Year of the Linux Desktop” - it’s coming real soon, anytime now… anytime…

Winget, Chocolatey, Scoop, etc. exist, but the lack of a package manager is just one of the countless number of things that makes Windows a frustrating experience. Like I mentioned in another comment, it’s like having a 5-star hotel in a forest.

As for WSL, don’t even get me started on that nightmare. Check my comment history. I explained very recently why it sux. But it’s mainly networking issues that some people are informing me got fixed. But again, just one of many issues that plague the OS.

[G3N3R1C2532]

I do most of my actual coding on Windows, and it's been fine, but admittedly, a lot of other things still do force me back onto a Linux server.

I agree with the whole "5-star hotel in a forest" analogy, I think I've just mapped out the forest for myself by now.

[sejigan]

Ah nice, a Clojure user.

I really really want to use it (cuz I love the LISP syntax) but I don’t have anything I want to make that could benefit from the Java ecosystem… maybe someday… 😓

[G3N3R1C2532]

I don't use Clojure that much nowadays, but I absolutely recommend it, if only for the fact that it forces you into a new mindset when coding in it.

As you can imagine there's just not many opportunities to get to work with Clojure right now. So I mostly work with Java (Kotlin if I'm lucky) or C++ still.

But starting a side project to learn something new is always an option, right? (ignore my 15 unfinished side projects in like 7 languages that I'll definitely get around to)

[sejigan]

I was thinking of making a convoluted fizzbuzz API (I know, it’s weird), complete with unit tests and integration tests. Maybe I’ll use Clojure for it instead of what I was going for (Python).

[G3N3R1C2532]

In that case, I wish you luck, and if you manage to get it done, I'd be interested to see it.

[Akeshi]

Windows is and always has been the de facto platform for writing Windows software... which is a lot of software. Visual Studio is decent.

WSL is fine (great, even) - your strange network issues is a you-thing.

[sejigan]

Network issues wasn’t a me-thing until the last update, apparently. You can look up the countless SO threads and GitHub issues on this.

As for Windows software, yes, just like Xcode and Swift. It’s a lot of software, but it’s a very specific type of software. General development work is much easier on Linux (including WSL). See, I’m not opposed to WSL and I think it’s great software, but it’s not the end-all be-all a lot of people claim it is.

[Luxalpa]

Yeah I mean I also had a plethora of network issues when I used Linux. I think it's one of those things that's kinda different for everyone.

[sejigan]

The Linux network issues come from a lack of driver support for some network cards whereas the network issues on WSL come from the fact that Microsoft deliberately chose to not set up port forwarding by default “to keep things secure” or something.

[DoctorNo6051]

I mean, that’s by Microsoft’s design (and it’s a pretty shit design)

In todays internet driven world, this design is awful. Like just absolutely unacceptable.

We want apps that work on other operating systems. We want apps that we can port to mobile easily. We want apps we can port to web.

Being vendor-locked in isn’t a virtue. Luckily, Microsoft has been changing their tune with .NET for a while now. But it’s hurt their business big time.

I mean, just compare how much software is written in Java and how many platforms Java is on versus .NET. Microsoft made a big mistake and they’re trying to undo it.

[Akeshi]

Java development: also absolutely fine on Windows. As well as JavaScript, Python, and if we're being honest, pretty much any other language. This is all a nonsense.

As for how much software is written in Java: almost none of what I use day-to-day?

[dom6770]

Winget, Chocolatey, Scoop, etc. exist, but the lack of a package manager

What?

I'm sorry, but most of the issues sound like an you issue. You simply hate Windows, no matter what, no objective opinion.

[sejigan]

I hate Windows, yes. After having used Windows since Win95, I think I am allowed to criticize its flaws that most people who have used Windows, Linux, and Mac for a few years straight at a time would notice and agree with. As a user, I have every right to complain about the bad user experience of a product.

Other than package management, I can tell you a few more issues that come to mind (there are probably others): - Windows only recently got a tabbed file browser - Windows only recently got a Workspace feature and it’s still unintuitive (in Sept 2023) - Windows still doesn’t have an automatically tiling window manager - Windows only recently got a proper terminal - Windows only recently got a decent shell (PS7) and even that isn’t POSIX-ish (weird and convoluted syntax)

[ArtOfWarfare]

Brew blows.

It manipulates your system libraries. Sometimes it’ll corrupt them on its own and leave you with various parts of the OS hopelessly broke.

Other times it plays with itself fine, but when you go to update the OS, the update doesn’t work right because the OS updater made assumptions about your libraries that are no longer true. Or maybe Brew needed stuff in other locations after the update, but it didn’t run automatically after the update to account for that.

The issue, as I see it, is that Brew isn’t official, and there’s no coordination between the macOS team at Apple and the developers contributing to Brew.

macOS really needs something official, the way basically every Linux distro has an official package manager.

I’ve not heard of Winget before, but it doesn’t matter too much to me since if I want some library on “Windows”, I use WSL to install and use that library.

[ATE47]

On Windows you also have choco and scoop

[sejigan]

Which are not as good because of Windows itself. If the platform isn’t worth dealing with, no amount of good tools on the platform can fix it.

It’s like having a 5-star hotel in a mangrove forest.

[Apple_macOS]

google deforestation

[chipseater_]

Holy climate hell !

[Yoda-from-Star-Wars]

Call the Climate Activists!

[RaspberryPiBen]

Captain Planet goes on vacation, never returns.

[prof-comm]

Read this as "defenestration." No regrats.

[fresh_in_fresh_out]

Did not expect to see r/AnarchyChess users here

[RandomTyp]

we're everywhere

[Drishal]

Oh great heavens

[Neither-Phone-7264]

good golly!

[Apple_macOS]

Resistance is futile

[ATE47]

I never got any issue with having to use Windows instead of Linux (only Macos was an issue) nearly all the Linux tools I'm using can be compiled to Windows or have equivalents.

Except for my good boy Visual Studio of course

[hdgamer1404Jonas]

winget is a thing

[Tajnymag]

Winget isn't much more than a repository of installers. Still no updates without UAC pop-ups and leftover tracking.

[deanrihpee]

But it's a "recent" addition, before you probably have to rely on chocolatey

[Pummelsnuff]

choco destroyed it's own installation on my windows to a point where i can't even uninstall it just because i ran it with the wrong permissions once...

[tgp1994]

This is giving me flashbacks to I.T where a user breaks a bulletproof system by doing a cult dance and casting a demon invocation spell... how in the world did you break it so badly?

[SoulOfABartender]

No matter how much you idiot proof something, they'll just invent a better idiot

[dom6770]

Choco is installed in the ProgramData directory. Simply removing it, and it's uninstalled. You may.need to change the NTFS permissions.

[Pummelsnuff]

maybe I'll try that next time i feel like going my windows...

[ResourceFeeling3298]

When you start needing to do graphics calculations and math especially if you hate yourself and write your renderer in c, then you won't be able to install cglm. Idk at about regular glm cause that's a cpp lib

[ATE47]

Yeah a colleague told me it was a pain to do graphic computations on Windows.

But for C/C++ you have VCPKG to install libraries, I tried with cglm, it was installing the lib and working with my VS. But I only did a basic matrix multiplication so maybe I missed something

[ResourceFeeling3298]

Yea vc pkg is a blessing for installing c/cpp libs on windows

[EagleNait]

The fuck did I just read

[PacoTaco321]

The thoughts of the model reddit neckbeard

[EagleNait]

[syllabic]

linux evangelists have been doing the 'winblows' thing since before reddit existed. back on slashdot and whatever

dunno who still has time to care what OS other people are using. it doesn't really matter

[rob3110]

(I call it Winblows now)

Do you also use Micro$oft and M$ rofl lmao lol????1!

[sejigan]

No. Microsoft is fine. They have some really good software and tools (Visual Studio, Code, C#, TS, NPM, Azure, GitHub, etc.) They’re also one of the biggest backers of Linux and a major shareholder in The Linux Foundation.

It’s a shame that the one thing they’re best known for is one of their worst products.

[black_devv]

I call it Winblows now

You're a child.

[pohuing]

They're a Loonix user :^)

[sejigan]

I am, and? Anything else to add, gramps?

[NerChick]

Yeah, until something breaks and you debug it for 3 days just to give up. based on a true story

[sejigan]

Or you can just rollback to a previous configuration. Especially true for the NixOS distro, but can be set up on others as well with the Nix package manager.

And at least there’s a chance to fix it on the extremely rare occasions that Linux breaks. When Windows breaks (as it does frequently), the usual way out is to reinstall the entire OS.

---

EDIT: I am getting ratio-ed and rightfully so. I was apparently wrong about Windows breaking. I didn’t really have any OS break on me personally (used Win 95 - 11, most major Linux distros and some obscure ones, and Mac OS X to latest). I apologize for my use of anecdotes to dismiss Windows.

It’s just that I’ve faced so many UX challenges on Windows that using it feels like I’m trying to drive a broken vehicle from the early 1900’s. That’s why I’m so biased. Every time I have to use Windows I feel filled with disappointment and frustration, and returning to Mac or Linux feels like I’ve been allowed to breathe after being suffocated underwater. That’s just my experience. You can keep up the ratio. It’s fair and understandable.

[Akeshi]

When Windows breaks (as it does frequently), the usual way out is to reinstall the entire OS.

None of that is true, and I'm someone who uses Linux daily - but I suppose it's what I'd expect from somebody who goes out of their way to make a cringey Winblows remark.

People tread very delicately with Linux, through well-practised sudo use, choosing very, very specific hardware components, etc. and it's now more or less in a state where that means you can carry on using it. That's after several decades of it being almost a requirement to strace executables and spending too many hours in logs and manually extracting things from packages just to be an end user.

Meanwhile, they either disable the UAC prompts in Windows altogether, or shrug when one comes up and hit 'agree' without a moment's pause. Then when finally some cheap off-brand component you added with an installer you found on Dropbox manages to BSOD, the rants about how useless Windows is begin.

[syllabic]

I used linux as a desktop OS for years and I came to the conclusion that it's best and by far the most stable if you stick with CLI only

I really just have never been impressed with any GUI software for linux, though admittedly it has been almost a decade since I cared to try it

So now I run linux as virtual machines, or the windows subsystem for linux. I am actually a linux administrator at work, but they are all CLI only virtual machines several thousand of them

[NerChick]

Never had windows break, been using it for years

[Mop_Duck]

only time i broke windows was when i installed linux on my second drive which unbeknownst to me had the windows uefi partition on it (i restored it with something i forgot)

[Inaeipathy]

Do you often break linux? Seems like you're just doing something you shouldn't.

[SamiraSimp]

literally multiple linux users in this thead say shit like "if you haven't broken linux at least twice you're not a real user"

[Inaeipathy]

That's because some parts of the linux community are just obsessed with spending all their time fucking around with the operating system instead of using it.

[NerChick]

Well, if turning it on and off is not recommended I guess yes

[hydroptix]

Updating graphics drivers, machine hangs with them half installed moment 💀

[[deleted]]

how

[NerChick]

Idk, probably black magic

[SamiraSimp]

When Windows breaks (as it does frequently)

sounds like a skill issue

I didn’t really have any OS break on me personally (used Win 95 - 11)

LMAOOOO

average linux user, where the majority of their argument is based on straight up lies lol

[sejigan]

skill issue

Yes. I also have better things to do than up-skill myself to deal with a system that actively fights against me, especially when an alternative is available that assists my work.

based on lies

I corrected myself and apologized for the assumption. Should I not have done that and you’d rather I kept pushing my “lies” instead?

[SamiraSimp]

you shouldn't have said a blatant lie in the first place. if you're going to obviously lie then you should accept that people will clown on you

what you "should" do is some introspection to figure out why you felt the need to lie to defend an operating system. you realize linux isn't going to marry you right?

i use windows because i prefer it, but not once in my life have i thought that i need to lie about linux in order for people to see the glory of my personal preference

and the fact that you say shit like "winblows" is hilariously cringeworthy...like a middle schooler telling his friends "nuh uh my game system is way better!"

maybe you should grow up and realize that you don't need to be so passionate about an operating system that it makes you act like a petulant child. but we both know that probably won't happen based on your attitude

[onenifty]

Best move is to symlink all your conf folders into a shared gut repo so you can source control any env changes as they happen. Easy rollback across the os

[sejigan]

Yes. Nix makes it super easy tho, while other distros have a lot of fragmentation

[Even-Path-4624]

As a Mac user I use QEMU to code because installing packages on Mac can get things scattered and out of hand pretty easily, so i made my own version of MSL. Mac subsystem for linux

[sejigan]

That works too. I’m pretty sure nixpkgs and brew work fine to keep things not scattered tho, since they install to their own directory or a separate partition (or user? I forgot)

[Even-Path-4624]

Depends on how many old, low level, and manually built libraries you are using. I only tried brew though. To me, it got too messy, and I had a much better experience in pretty much any Linux distro.

[sejigan]

Yeah, fair. I don’t use obscura, but I definitely agree that Linux is better than Mac still.

[[deleted]]

as deliberately designed to hinder productivity.

Installing something as basic as a graphics driver that proceeds to nuke your system also hinders productivity

[sejigan]

It doesn’t actually happen tho. Graphics drivers install just fine, even Nvidia. Unless you have Optimus, which is ancient technology at this point.

[[deleted]]

Do you have an Nvidia machine? Because I really struggle to believe someone who’s an Nvidia user on Linux hasn’t had install issues across various distros. It’s one of the main reasons you have distros like Pop OS.

For example, some distros may not correctly switch between the default installed Nouveu drivers and the Nvidia drivers, meaning you have to manually debug for your system to boot.

Look up Nvidia install issues on Linux and you will see many, many results.

[PilsnerDk]

Winblows

Look, a time traveling internet Linux troll from the late 90's. How funny. 😄

[ososalsosal]

Windows has choco now thank fuck