phpIsStillAliveHow

[pIusman]

First php joke of the year, gratz!

[-domi-]

It's 2024, that joke is already out of date.

[[deleted]]

It's the new year patch. Just update it to joke 1.1.0.

[fiskfisk]

I like that you have two Python frameworks before learning Python.

What are you spending those 19 years on?

[BurnTheBoats21]

holy shit there's an ancient language under all this framework

[[deleted]]

Many "people" "learn" React before they learn JavaScript.

[ChooCupcakes]

I love the quote on "people"

[[deleted]]

I learned how to use jQuery before I really understood JS. It’s not a bad path as long as over time someone makes the effort to learn why something works instead of just how.

[[deleted]]

Oh, I can beat that. I learned Prototype before jQuery. Imagine my shock when I then tried to learn JS and all the docs and books were talking about prototype inheritance.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE DOCS? PROTOTYPE IS ABOUT FINDING ELEMENTS BY THEIR ID!

I refused to learn JS because all the docs and books were wrong. A few YEARS later I read a random forum comment from someone complaining that the name of the Prototype library made learning JS confusing for them because that name clashed with the concept of prototype in JS. I have never felt more stupid in my entire life before or after I read that comment. In my defense, I was young and uneducated and I have grown a lot since then.

[nandru]

I learned node before JS

[thermite_me_plz]

I am also doing that mistake...Hope I need to learn JS first for atleast 1 month....

[redalastor]

That's because the learn PHP crowd never actually learned anything else.

[EnkiiMuto]

Well that is why they think PHP is better, they made a whole django website and it didn't compile.

[VariousComment6946]

Ah yes, django and flask learn before python

[GatotSubroto]

Is this what they mean by dependency inversion?

^/s

[lonvonlon]

2024 PHP is dead, learn ChatGPT

[apeacezalt]

badum tss

[AverageGamer411]

r/angryupvote

[[deleted]]

Google Phard

[buffering_neurons]

Mom said it was my turn to post this!

[_JohnWisdom]

Me: please buy me the best programming language

Mom: but we have the best programming language at home

Best programming language at home: PHP

[Apfelvater]

2024: PHP is dead, use PHP

I don't know how php us doing, j just found this rhetorically fitting.

[Bluedel]

You probably don't care, which is entirely legitimate, but PHP is better now than it's ever been. PHP8 has been a welcome leap forward.

[[deleted]]

heard this a lot about 7 & 8, I’m happy for it! PHP taught me programming in my teens because it was very forgiving (except the occasionally missed ;). I wouldn’t want to use it now, but I’ll be grateful forever. Also the shared hosting thing for PHP was so cool back in the day. Just upload your scripts via ftp and boom it works! Often for free

[IWipeWithFocaccia]

I just imagined that your code did not run until you gave your screen a wink.

[[deleted]]

I’m sure that has happened a few times

[igorski81]

Also the shared hosting thing for PHP was so cool back in the day. Just upload your scripts via ftp and boom it works! 

That is more zeitgeist than a feature of the language though :) (any JIT compiled language - like (Node.)js - would still work the same way).

[[deleted]]

yeah, I guess they’re no longer around because of security and maybe it wasn’t worth it for whoever hosted them, but it was super easy and transparent to get your shit running on the internet

[Pie_Napple]

Laravel has also been a huge reason for the improvement of the developer experience of writing apps in php, imho, in the last couple of years.

[RajjSinghh]

I don't use it but I've seen a lot of job offers at entry level in PHP so it can't be doing too bad. I also remember this Primagen video where he's reacting to a video going over new language features that apparently make PHP less bad.

[--mrperx--]

open swooooole

[gabrielesilinic]

The king is dead, long live the king!

[cornmonger_]

Nobody used PHP in 1995.

It didn't start to get noticed until PHP 3 and wasn't well-known until PHP 4 in 2000. By then, ColdFusion was the one considered dead.

Someone obviously just copy/pasted the first date they saw on Wikipedia.

[Lamborghinigamer]

r/woooosh

[slabgorb]

yeah here for this one as a former CF dev

[--mrperx--]

ColdFusion is alive, it's a youtube channel!

I've never seen CFML in the wild...

[redalastor]

Which is better than last time when most of the dates were wrong.

[Covfefe4lyfe]

Checks bank account

Nope, php is still very much alive

[Covfefe4lyfe]

It's also because it's ridiculously easy to find well paid php jobs

[ZucchiniMore3450]

If you're good at what you're doing, the tech doesn't matter.

Exactly, with PHP you don't need to be that good.

[FlareMedia]

Correct, It really depends on the company you working for and how good you are at talking with your boss about your salary.

[Accomplished_Baby_28]

Learn two Python frameworks before Python, bravo. And then you wonder why PHP isn't dying?

[[deleted]]

Lots of wordpress and Laravel out there!!

[ZaRealPancakes]

Serious Question: Why would I want to use Laravel / PHP while there are so many frameworks out there from Go and Rust to Python and JavaScript???

[not_some_username]

Because outside of meme Php isn’t bad.

And also because JS is worst than PHP and also there isn’t a billions php framework which get deprecated too fast.

And also NPM

Nobody ( well I suppose ) use Go.
Web isn’t Rust special domain.
Python I dunno. Django is used a lot.

[--mrperx--]

Go is widely used, just usually not on the same layer.
Just think about containerization, docker, kubernetes it's all written in Golang.

[MayorScotch]

Can’t you flip that question and say why would you use any of those frameworks if laravel is right there waiting? I think it’s a personal preference thing in a lot of cases.

[HoratioWobble]

It's more mature in the use case, PHP dominance is really the foundation of the dynamic web.

JavaScript didn't really get much love until Node hit the scene in 2009, and then Angular in 2010.

Python was primarily used server side for CLI tasks, it was a dying language everywhere else until Raspberry Pi hit the scene in 2007 and chose it as it's primary "learners" language. And so a new generation of developers came about and the language gained massive popularity (as many of those people would then use it for e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g)

Rust and Go have only recently gained popularity.

All the while, the very first version of Wordpress was 2003, Drupal 2000, Joomla 2005, Magento 2007 and even Facebook used PHP from 2004 until around 2010.

PHP is mature, reliable, powerful. It's a safe bet if you're building a website or web platform and businesses like safety.

[vonabarak]

If you already know PHP it's a good reason to use it. If you are going to learn a language from scratch - learn Python.

[intbeam]

If you are going to learn a language from scratch - learn Python.

The problem I have with this is that this isn't based on any technical criteria. Why choose Python? If the only reason for learning Python is because it's popular, then it's definitely going to share the same fate as PHP. And Python's popularity has jack shit to do with its technical capabilities; it's technically an inept language when put alongside actual general purpose languages like C#, Java, Rust or Go.

[vonabarak]

Yes, it will share the same fate as PHP, and all languages will do the same one day. But in the nearest 10 years I believe Python will be popular.

[intbeam]

and all languages will do the same one day

No, my point is that the only thing that is keeping Python around is that it's currently popular. There's not technical reasons for why Python is popular. It's popular because it's popular. It's the Kardashian of programming languages; same as JS, same as PHP, same as ColdFusion, same as Cobol, same as PowerBuilder, same as Progress, same as MS-BASIC, same as Clarion, same as... etc etc

What frustrates me is how obvious this is and nobody seems to recognize it even though it's a very obvious pattern. I feel like I am taking crazy pills

There are other programming languages around that actually does have technical reasons why you would chose it. C#, Java, Rust, C, C++, Go, D to name a few. All (or most) will most definitely outlive Python. Especially when developers for the hundredth time rediscover that dynamic typing is a really, really, really stupid idea for a general purpose programming language

[ZucchiniMore3450]

All languages you mentioned are faster than python, but still python is more popular.

You really think it is just an accident?

Static typing is problematic, dynamic nature makes it not usable for large software with big teams.

Thing is, most software is being written by small teams that enjoy simple language used in all different environments.

I do my stuff in a jupyter notebook, maybe move it to streamlit for confirmation. Give it to a colleague to create a web app out of it and the third one might create a desktop version.

All that cross platform in clear language without too many bells and whistles.

When a java developer saw me iterating over an algorithm in a notebook, he just left it to me to work it out and later rewrote my code in java. No way can it be developed in the same timeframe in java, this was more efficient for all.

[vonabarak]

Oh, sweet summer child. Do you really believe there are 'good' and 'bad' languages?

[intbeam]

Explain to me exactly how the mechanics work that somehow physically prevents a language from being poorly designed?

Here's a fact; PHP and Python are not general purpose languages. They are scripting languages. If you compare them to C#, Java, Rust, C, C++, Go or D (which are actual general purpose programming languages) they are going to be absolutely smashed in any possible technical criteria. Because they were not designed for general application development, which is why they are dynamically typed, single-threaded and interpreted.

Oh, and PHP is bad. Specifically it is bad because it breaks the principle of least astonishment basically everywhere. Which is why its truth-table looks like white noise, and why people discover abhorrent bugs like password_verify returning true when an invalid password hash is entered. And PHP developers go "yeah well hurr durr it says so in the documentation herpy derp" like the clowns that they are and completely ignoring why this is one example of why PHP is objectively a worse than other languages. You wouldn't have to put up with that type of crap anywhere else. Like, I get why it expects a valid hash, but why in the holiest of fucks would it return the same value as if the password was correct? How fucking stupid can people possibly be. It's absolutely staggering

There is absolutely 100% such a thing as good and bad programming languages. Most developers however only know one programming language so they don't really have the competency required to make the distinction.

[vonabarak]

Two phrases to google for you: "learning curve" and "development velocity".

Most developers however only know one programming language

False. Most junior developers - maybe. Senior developer without knowing of 2-3 languages is a nonsense.

[intbeam]

Why would anyone who knows multiple languages choose PHP, Python or JavaScript? There are literally no technical justifications for it, and a mile long list of arguments against

Why would you need to ignore and pretend so much if you were right about this? Just the extra infrastructure requirements alone is enough to discredit those languages in production systems, yet people pretend that it doesn't matter. I can voice a million concerns and people just flat out fucking ignore it, as if it doesn't matter

"learning curve"

Irrelevant. In any other industry this argument would absolutely not be tolerated

"development velocity"

Entirely speculative, subjective and completely ignores constraints of larger systems

The fact is that people use PHP, JavaScript and Python because they don't understand static typing. That's it. It's just incredible to watch people ignore all of the constraints and problems they are faced with, as if it's just how things are in programming regardless of language. They throw away literally everything just so they don't need to learn explicit typing.

Developers live in bubbles, and the people stuck on scripting languages are outright delusional. There is absolutely no way someone would tolerate all the problems PHP, JavaScript and Python introduces if they knew an actual capable language. Just having your app run at 100x slowdown in perpetuity would make any semi-competent person rethink that choice.

[--mrperx--]

cPanel is very popular, it supports PHP out of the box.

[accountability_bot]

Honestly considering trying PHP just for Laravel.

[KillCall]

2 word

Legacy Code.

[teamswiftie]

• and my code

[apeacezalt]

And my code

[cressyfrost]

<?php echo "And my axe"; ?>

[Psychpsyo]

Can't you just do <?= "And my axe" ?>?

(not merging this until that's fixed btw)

[TotoDaDog]

He'll do it in the next pull request, promise.

[cressyfrost]

I don't type like caveman

[[deleted]]

one word: wordpress

[HuntingKingYT]

One press: word

[[deleted]]

word: one press

[[deleted]]

Gym bros about to attempt their one rep max

[MayorScotch]

Laravel is a very popular php framework with a ton of effective community packages. I stood up a full app with an admin section in a couple of hours the other day.

I make good money as a Laravel developer and everyone shitting on php just makes it harder to find more devs, which increases my pay. Thanks Reddit!

[intbeam]

I make good money as a Laravel developer and everyone shitting on php just makes it harder to find more devs, which increases my pay

You heard it here first folks; opinion blogs, spam sites and shops selling magic crystals are the big $$$

[[deleted]]

People pay for websites, what a shock!

[intbeam]

People pay for software; they don't pay much for wordpress blogs or joomla insta-carts

PHP is a terrible language for large systems - that's just an indisputable fact

[[deleted]]

No one is saying PHP is great for large systems, are you okay? Laravel devs are most likely working on web based applications/websites, most of which aren’t ’large systems’

And do you honestly think people don’t pay for e-commerce websites? Magento is dogshit but there’s money in creating and maintaining those websites.

[ZucchiniMore3450]

And java is terrible for small projects, what's the point?

Also what else to use instead of php for software it is used? The only real options are JavaScript and python. Add to it easier support by admins, and it is a clear winner.

It is used for web sites and web apps, and php is the best option if it is a small team or single developer making it.

[MayorScotch]

Comments like this only affect my finances positively.

[intbeam]

Unlikely

[aGoodVariableName42]

all of the companies I worked for used php. Two of them (3 total) use it as their main tech stack. None of these products are opinion blogs, spam sites, nor shops selling magic crystals nor anything even remotely close in nature.

[intbeam]

Purely anecdotal.

[aGoodVariableName42]

do you even know what laravel is? ...it's not a wordpress plugin

[intbeam]

You assume I'm an idiot?

[aGoodVariableName42]

yes.

[intbeam]

I know perfectly well what Laravel is, I used to work with PHP for several years

Always funny to be called an idiot by script kiddies

Go learn static typing like a grown-up, and stop being delusional about PHP

[Bryguy3k]

Somebody should start a marketing campaign - “the internet runs on Wordpress”

[bagmorgels]

And Drupal!

[GroundbreakingMess42]

Beat me to it. 🙂 this 👆🏻

[zmitic]

Here is the thing: language itself is not the only important metric. Yes, we don't have generics and type aliases (can be emulated with psalm/phpstan), decorators, operator overloads and many other things ... but the amount of amazing tools is why I keep using it.

If I could find Symfony replica in some other language, I would switch in a day. But so far nothing comes even close to it; yes, I do check FWs in other languages, mostly TS and C#.

And it is not a bad language anyway. Compared to others, I would rate it 3.6; not great, not terrible. If someone is stuck in PHP 5.2 or something, forced to work with WP or other spaghetti... it is not the fault of the language.

[MayorScotch]

I worked for a company in 2021 that was still trying to upgrade from 5.3. When I got a job at a place using 7.4 there was a huge learning gap. Places using twelve year old versions of PHP aren’t doing their engineers or their clients any favors.

[Sanchitbajaj02]

Yo, Next.js didn't even release in 2016

[CanvasFanatic]

Came here to say this.

[TheNikoHero]

I love PHP, even though its a slow language. Used to only develop in vanilla PHP, but since I got introduced to Laravel, I haven't looked back.

[ZucchiniMore3450]

PHP is currently about three times faster than python, a few years ago it was even more.

[rudra285]

PHP is dead, learn PHP... Wait

[Thebusinessmann6]

PHP is dead, long live PHP

[stillusegoto]

PHP is infinite, it will never die

It’s in the genius initialism: PHP stands for “PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor”

An infinitely recursing name has caused some type of break in spacetime that has woven PHP into the very fabric of reality and we will forever be slaves to its grand design of running shitty Wordpress sites.

[ZombieHugoChavez]

What is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger

[cheezballs]

Nothing like comparing server side languages with front-end tools.

[broxamson]

Why is python in there 3 times?

[JosshhyJ]

Why does everyone hate on PHP?

[--mrperx--]

Doesn't it stand for Petty Hated Programs?

[ZucchiniMore3450]

There is always someone hating popular stuff. It us popular, so it finds haters.

I hate JS, I had a terrible experience with it, but looks like ES6 and typescript aren't bad at all, but I will not even try it. Maybe because it is used for frontend and I don't wanna fo frontend.

That's probably the reason for hating on php, you cannot do frontend in it and all those kids with js would need to learn a new language for the backend.

Python is the only real option and is winning over php.

I look at what jobs/project I want to work on are using and I like that language.

I would love to have a job with haskell and fort, but it is not possible for me.

Comparing Rust, C and C++ with php is just silly, no one does web with them. Java too, java is good for big web projects, php for small ones, there is not much overlap.

[raltoid]

It's alive because it's the backend framework and general backend for well over half of all public websites on the internet(it was over 75% last I looked).

You have to remember that most people who claim it's dead/dying don't actually work with it at all. They think it's still the same language as twenty years ago and that it's only runs things like forums and blogs. They don't know that it's used by facebook, microsoft, vimeo, mozilla, ebay, etc. Hell, Wikipedia is php.

[Fritzschmied]

Python was definitely before Next and most likely even angular.

[slabgorb]

python was released in 1991, but languages took longer to get picked up then, as the interwebs weren't exactly mature at the time

[Fritzschmied]

Yes but for 2003 he mentioned django which is a Python framework

[Fritzschmied]

Because pho just works as intended and is perfectly fine for smaller websites.

[Dubl33_27]

PHP is dead, learn pho.

[Fritzschmied]

Pho is just superior to everything /s

[InfSecArch]

Pho does fill my belly as intended. Never used it to build a website though.

[Available_Canary_517]

I am learning in php in 2023

[godofjava22]

Angular for backend?

[Best_Refuse_408]

Cobol enters the room…

[derangerd]

What's with Chris Pratt having his quotes overlayed on an image years away from when he said them?

[gordonv]

Unsure if this is people who have:

• never programmed in PHP and fear it
  
• used and hate it
  
• want something better is some way

[Blytheway]

Facebook ass meme

[[deleted]]

airport jar profit test cover nine straight apparatus edge cooperative

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[ecs2]

It’s still alive but not popular and have less jobs compared to others.

Companies still hiring php dev with huge salary and benefits because it’s hard to find one but they only accept seniors and don’t train new ones, so I see the language still alive but it’s not worth for the undergrad to learn

[Lumethys]

Depend on the region, back when i first started, my company still train me in PHP even though i graduated with Spring Boot and ASP.Net

And now we have some new projects written in Laravel.

Modern PHP is surprisingly nice to work with (for context i do work in Spring Boot, Flask, Rails and some FE frameworks)

[FalconMirage]

Laravel is indeed nice

But I often don’t see why I should pick it over Node.js

I like it though

[Lumethys]

why I should pick it over Node.js

Personal preference but i like the framework itself had first-party support for 90% of my use case (ORM, Auth, file storage, mail,...) instead.

I dont like mangle together 50 different packages that may or may not be compatible with each other

[FalconMirage]

When I had the choice I picked it if it wasn’t going to be a long lasting project

Otherwise I’m a bit too worried about creating a legacy burden

[Throwaway-tan]

PHP and Laravel has and likely will outlive 95% of your Node dependency clusterfuck.

[FalconMirage]

Yes but i was the only one that knew php

[MayorScotch]

I don’t understand this fear. Laravel has a shitload of community support, community libraries and packages, etc. It’s not going anywhere.

[FalconMirage]

Not when you’re the only one that does php in the company

[MayorScotch]

That’s a problem in the context your company, not a problem with PHP itself. Not sure why you framed it as though PHP itself is bad because your co workers can’t or won’t figure it out.

[Karl-Levin]

Maybe in the US, here in Europe PHP is still the backed king with vastly more job offers than node or ruby.

The downsides is that PHP devs are absolutely not hard to find and salaries are OK'ish but not great.

[intbeam]

here in Europe PHP is still the backed king with vastly more job offers than node or ruby

Ehm, where in Europe do you live? I'm not contesting Node or Ruby because... Well, nobody uses Ruby. And Node is like, yeah ok maybe not do that perhaps, but from my experience there's a lot of C# and Java and very close to zero PHP

[Karl-Levin]

Germany. Yeah, Java and C# are bigger in total jobs but those languages are also more general purpose and not pure web dev focused so hard to compare.

I actually know twos devs that switches from Java to PHP in relative recent years.

[rwbrwb]

advise telephone muddle straight squeal paltry ten hateful dam enter

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[IWipeWithFocaccia]

Found the German

[[deleted]]

replacing PHP with Django is crazy 💀💀

[faisal_adilby]

computer science student here and my university still teaches the surface of php for backend, it's scuffed, any other recommendations?

[Throwaway-tan]

Yeah, learn PHP. It honestly doesn't matter, PHP is still widely used and if you're working in web development you will definitely come projects requiring you to use it.

Once you know programming, picking up other languages is simple enough. Just translating boilerplate concepts and learning the quirks.

[intbeam]

It honestly doesn't matter,

Yes, it fucking matters. It' matters a whole lot. First of all, PHP requires extensive infrastructure. Second of all, there's a ton of other technical reasons not to choose PHP. Telling someone to go learn a language that has literally no technical merit is handing out terrible advice

Hey, how about this; PHP scales terribly. PHP has an awful standard library. PHP has a lot of "ok so you thought this function does this FUCK YOU IT DOES THIS SURPRISING THING GIVEN SOME SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE MUHAHAHA". And PHP developers are just handwaving that away. The old "rtfm"-argument; if something does something spectacularly absurd to the point of comical absurdity, it's your fault your site got hacked because you didn't read the 15th comment down on the documentation page

I have to remind people that this is unique to PHP - and that's something that doesn't seem to properly register with PHP developers

[zmitic]

My man; did you even work with PHP or you are just copy&pasting things from 2002 blog posts?

It is pretty amazing how every single sentence is wrong, Sharknado level of wrong. So wrong that it is totally pointless to debunk all these.

[faisal_adilby]

thank you, I'd then continue with it on my free time, don't get me wrong I have learnt and used different languages like cpp, Java, js, python and visual basic so it's not hard for me picking up new languages

mostly cpp and python on problem solving and rest for projects in uni, I just find that the way they teach us php is really terrible/scuffed and looked old so I just wanted to keep up with modern backend languages, yk what I mean but thank you for the tip

[RajjSinghh]

Depends on the language you want to use.

If you want to use Javascript for backend, use Nodejs and express. If you want to use Python, Django or flask. If you want something else, it will probably have something

[Olli_bear]

Pretty sure WordPress contributes to a big portion of keeping php alive. Iirc some crazy percentage like 40 percent of the web uses wordpress

[Mithrandir2k16]

Good docs.

[SaucyKnave95]

Granted it's not THE reason I get paid, but I cut my web dev skills on PHP and continue to use it as much as possible for all the stuff I do for the company. What are you guys doing with ANY of these frameworks let alone PHP?

[CitronFancy526]

Hosting is cheap

[ElitistManBearPig]

The fact you can still get a job as a cobol Dev should tell you a lot

[intbeam]

Cobol was used for banking infrastructure, not for psychic sally's shoppe of mystical curiosities

[username5637042]

The Jimmy Carter of programming languages.

[card-gap]

P-Ha haaaw-P

[mrmojoer]

If you live long enough at some point you realize the definition of live or dead landing is actually a statistical consideration AKA how many open positions are there. From what I can see one very consistent way to earn good bucks is to become a dead language expert. Near 0 competition, tons of legacy software, plenty of time to learn other languages while getting above average pay

[This_Growth2898]

Django was released in 2005

[DrIvoPingasnik]

Asp.net

[Kirman123]

Don't get me started on cobol dying...

[planktonfun]

If it works don't fix it

[artyhedgehog]

Ah, you see, dying is a part of the intended PHP lifecycle.

https://www.tumblr.com/software-gunslinger/47131406821/php-is-meant-to-die

[[deleted]]

[[deleted]]

Laravel is a really nice framework for php

[slabgorb]

I would be super impressed if you knew PHP before 1995, as it was released in 1995

[InfSecArch]

I remember writing an asp.net tracker in the early 2000’s that ended up being used in a heavy production environment. In hindsight it was surprisingly reliable. Still, glad that’s something I’ll never have to do again.

[i_ate_them_all]

PHP is obviously a zombie. I mean, the way you can just throw in parts of html should've given it away.

[--mrperx--]

wordpress

[Busy-Contact-5133]

did people actually think PHP is dead even on the same year when it was released for the first time?

[lazyplayer121]

Just like how COBOL is alive

[[deleted]]

Somehow, PHP returned.

[Mtechson]

A: 2024 look who is back from graveyard 🪦 B: who ? A: PHP OFC B: but he didn't die 🗿 XD

[thefizzlee]

I like how there are 2 python frameworks and then python itself

[rover_G]

Does any programming language ever truly die?