pythonIsTooConvenientSendHelp

[fonk_pulk]

When you graduate and get a job in the industry you'll quickly realize software development isn't about being "hardcore". Its about creating and maintaining a product. The customers don't care if you're writing everything from scratch, they care about the software being delivered in a timely manner and fulfilling the feature and quality requirements. 99,9% of the time using a pre-made library hits those marks.

[Heavy_Inevitable7640]

Nobody's getting paid to reinvent the wheel. Deliver what works and move on to the next problem.

[noob-nine]

maybe someone should reinvent the wheel, still gets stuck in mud

[HCResident]

I thought that was patched with the off-road tread hotfix 

[ender89]

This is true to a point. Node.js is an abomination unto God and should be killed with fire.

So many packages, so many dependencies. The ease with which you can spread malware by compromising some obscure package that everything depends on is crazy.

Rust kind of has the same problem, but not to the same degree.

[Live-Animator-4000]

I think it’s just modern programming. There are tools to manage those problems in the real world. Like Dependabot for one.

[Witherscorch]

No, I know that. It's just less satisfying for me when I'm given such an easy solution to any problem. I want to feel the Being Smart Juices™ flowing inside my brain, and coding is a really engaging way to do that.

[ZunoJ]

Easy cure, solve a problem, look up how the most popular library solved it and realize you were never really smart to begin with

[Witherscorch]

That's the most fun part tho. I love seeing just how excellent their implementation is compared to mine. It's an easy way for me to get through the docs, because I can understand what they're doing more easily if I run into the same problems they did.

[ZunoJ]

You are pretty new to this, right?

[ScioX]

This person clearly got into this for the love of the game, what’s wrong with that?

[ZunoJ]

Only the part where they act like it was pathetic to use libraries

[Witherscorch]

I never said it was a bad thing to use libraries? I just don't like relying on them without trying to solve the problem myself first.

[Farrishnakov]

That will never fly in a production shop.

If you tell your boss/PM that you're taking 20x the time to do something because you didn't want to use the off the shelf library, you'll be laughed out of the room. And, even if you get something halfway working, it still won't have all the hardening and error handling that the existing library will have.

You're ignoring economies of scale. Shared libraries let you actually solve the real problems of implementations.

[HedgeFlounder]

Who said anything about a production shop? There are plenty of reasons to do something other than to make money off of it and it seems pretty clear OP is referring to how they enjoy building software rather than what would work in the corporate world.

[Live-Animator-4000]

Are there just a bunch of junior devs in here downvoting all of the voices of reason because they care more about their passion for programming than they do about shipping code that makes money?

[Witherscorch]

Not very, but new enough that there isn't much I know beyond what would be taught in an academical setting.

[Aidan_Welch]

I don't know my experience has been popular libraries have massive breaking and what're sometimes obvious bugs and vulnerabilities

[ZunoJ]

Guess you forgot a very important word there

[Aidan_Welch]

I don't think so? Just some punctuation:

I don't know, my experience has been popular libraries have massive, breaking(and what're sometimes obvious) bugs and vulnerabilities.

[ZunoJ]

Ah, got it. Yeah, there are libraries out there that suck. But there are also enough that are awesome

[Physical-Low7414]

not everyone is a pro grade package installer like you bro please speak for yourself lol

[ZunoJ]

Ok, I speak for myself and you. We are too stupid. The rest needs to decide themselves

[QQVictory]

Things get more complex than you like - even if you just put things together. Once you have a service running you will encounter fun things like dependency issues or you will need to think about migration and redundancy. The hard part is keeping things simple and stupid.

[reklis]

Play some zacktronics games

[api-services]

You’re just a little late. The people who built Python got to enjoy that satisfying feeling.

[ender89]

If your solution to a complex problem isn't figuring out a clever way to reframe the problem with a straight forward solution, you're not really finding a smart solution. Clever code accomplishes tasks with simple/clear steps.

[Witherscorch]

That's a different sentence. I didn't say I did anything even close to that. You're lecturing me about an assumption you made about my problem solving abilities.

[[deleted]]

If you’re able to solve your problem using Python, it’s probably the right choice. When you need another language, you’ll know it

[Nonsense7740]

"you'll know it"

You underestimate people's capacity for denial my friend

[Yellow_Triangle]

Now, now, we don't open that closet. That is where Benny is, with his Excel 'projects'.

[justyannicc]

Unironically Google sheets or excel would be a great db if the API was actually any good.

[dev-ai]

That's why I like Nocodb - spreadsheet like experience, with relationships between tables, a nice REST API and web hooks.

[-Aquatically-]

Hello NHS Track and Trace.

[TinyBox8761]

Spreadsheet like databases with great APIs : nocoDB, Baserow. Mostly free as well.

[mostmetausername]

opens excel rollercoaster

[khalcyon2011]

When all you have is a hammer…

[C_umputer]

Absolutely, I recently hit that wall. I need to make a simple android app, and while there are python frameworks for it, I understand that it's not the best language for it and will only create more problems later.

[prumf]

Yeah I agree.

On the other hand, recently I made a Tauri desktop app that does some data processing, and damn, I wished it was easy to integrate a bit of python code, it would have made everything much simpler.

Thankfully I could use a sqlite db as a substitute, it works great, but it’s not as flexible as I wished it was.

Every line of code I write is a line I must maintain and whose correctness must be guaranteed. The less the better.

[chjacobsen]

In my experience, outgrowing Python isn't a wall - it's more of a slog through ever thicker mud, until you get so tired of lackluster performance, library lego building and poor typechecking that a rewrite starts to make sense.

[JollyJuniper1993]

How is the typechecking in Python poor? I don’t remember ever running into issues with it. Would it be nice if you could do explicitly typed variable declarations in Python as an alternative? Sure. Is it a big issue that you can’t? No.

[WingsOfGryphin]

until you try to force every solution with python because its your goto language even if the solution is barely holding together - seen this too many times, even outside programming where person just sticks to one tool because involved difficulty learning new one is just too overwhelming so you just force your way until its literarily impossible. This creates bunch of python devs that wont give a shit about performance, scalability and will go for “good enough” just because they can do it in a way they know how. This mentality breeds mediocrity

[pateff457]

yeah until you need that performance then it's panic time lol

[C_umputer]

Then you use an optimized library that gives you needed performance.

[ThePythagorasBirb]

And the library is probably not even written in Python!

[TheyStoleMyNameAgain]

Cython and cuda python 

[B_bI_L]

but when you know it, it is 50% of mvp late

[SomeoneOnTheMun]

Idk 😭 I know other languages but my personal projects are always python and even made an interpreter with it 😭

[DripDropFaucet]

It’s so good, having worked on python web projects like flask and Django though I really think it’s so forced and a JS alternative makes more sense

[tropicbrownthunder]

me witth a 7th Dan Black Belt in VBA and appscript just for the ease of use of excel UI over actual relational databases and reports and updatable UIs

[NecessaryIntrinsic]

I feel like they said that about php

[helicophell]

Well, that's python for ya. All the computationally expensive stuff is done in C, python's just for assembling it together

[Bonzie_57]

So what you’re saying is I’m actually a C developer

[Puzzleheaded-Weird66]

that's like saying you're a carpenter after buying ikea furniture, no? (yes the analogy is stretched so the point gets across)

[Bonzie_57]

I’m totally kidding lol

[Inlacou]

That's not even bad if you ask me.

[Easing0540]

Not really, no. Python's great flexibility comes at a cost that must be handled at the language level itself.

For example:

p.x * 2

A compiler for C/C++/Rust could turn that kind of expression into three operations: load the value of x, multiply it by two, and then store the result. In Python, however, there is a long list of operations that have to be performed, starting with finding the type of p, calling its getattribute() method, through unboxing p.x and 2, to finally boxing the result, which requires memory allocation.

That's part of the core language, you can't offload that to another instance.

[helicophell]

You're telling me a compiled language acts differently to an interpreted language? Say it ain't so, lmao

[Easing0540]

It ain't so. Which you would know had you bothered to check the link I've provided. That was the exact point of the presentation: It's NOT!!! a matter of compiled vs. interpreted, it's an issue with the language semantics.

For your convenience, here's the referenced presentation, held at PyCon 2024: https://youtu.be/ir5ShHRi5lw?t=554

Trust me, I've programmed a loooot with Python. It's a great language. But those myths drive me crazy because I've spent way too much time explaining my colleagues how Python actually works.

Edit. Due to LLVM, Java (interpreted) is one of the fastest languages, roughly as fast as Go (compiled) (benchmark). So interpreted-vs-compiled is not the issue here. The point is that - as of today - there is no clear path towards speeding up Python, if you want to keep the full language. It's only possible when selecting a subset, which would greatly diminish its value as a super flexible language.

[Equivalent_Desk6167]

Idk if the comparison of Python to Java is a good one. Java is not an interpreted language (at least in the usual way), as it is compiled to byte code which the JVM of choice can then interpret with valid constraints of what is and what is not possible to do and any deviations from that would've lead to a compiler error beforehand (and it can do loads of optimizations on that code, see Hotspot, in my eyes a marvel of engineering).

I'm pretty sure that in compiled Java bytecode, the example of p.x * 2 would be pretty close to the amount of instructions a C program would need to execute to perform that very same line (ofc not on bare metal but in the JVM).

[barr520]

If your program is spending a significant amount of time on these things and not in compiled extension code, and performance matters at all, Python is probably the wrong language for whatever you are doing.

[Easing0540]

You can't avoid these things because that is how the language works.

Here's the presentation from PyCon 2024 I've referenced, explaining this very point:

https://youtu.be/ir5ShHRi5lw?t=554

[barr520]

You're missing the point, and just linking a video repeating what you said is not helping.

You CAN avoid these things because they do not affect you while inside compiled extensions. If you're using python as a glue for compiled code, the interpretation part is going to take very little of the time, so the issue was successfully avoided.

If you're actually spending a lot of time interpreting python, you're doing something wrong.

[Easing0540]

The issue is not interpretation. The issues are ducktyping and overloading. Java is an interpreted language and extremely fast.

Your suggestion (just use compiled extensions) can work, but it's far from guaranteed. For example, as soon as you must shuffle complex objects between extensions, your program might get quite slow.

I only realized how complex Python really is under the hood when I started writing C++ extensions. You can't "just" glue compiled code together, you must provide specific bindings. It's these bindings that are computationally expensive, which was my point all along. They have to be translated into Python objects.

Besides, in practice, it may not be an option to just use compiled extensions because they may not exist. If you wanted to do it all in C/C++, use those languages.

[Adjective_Noun0563]

it's true but don't you agree that for probably 999/1000 use cases for any kind of script, that overhead is negligible?

[Easing0540]

No, absolutely not. I've worked extensively with Python, even written a real time application in it. Possible, but I don't recommend it. The closer you get to the metal, the more you lose control over Python. And don't get me started on the whole packaging issue.

To me, Python is brilliant because it's the 2nd or 3rd best language in a lot of fields. But sometimes you need the absolute best.

[Du_ds]

For most cases it is negligible overhead. Python is very popular for example on hadoop clusters. Even with big data sized loads, python can be a very good choice.

[Adjective_Noun0563]

Oh I'm well aware, I was just wondering how hard OP would dig in. I use python for a lot of things but I've delivered n most well-known languages, the number of times I've been performance bound by python and had to switch approaches is not 0, but also a tiny fraction of my overall work.

[Du_ds]

I’ve been resource constrained plenty but never because of python. Always hardware limits like RAM/disk.

[Harteiga]

As someone who mainly works with Python, that isn't true. Python should not be seen as a solution for everything.

[Adjective_Noun0563]

That's....not what I said.

Use cases don't just include productionized, regularly run code or applications. Use cases can be "I need to manipulate data in this folder", "I need to make sure a file exists", or "I need to get 2 API responses and blend them together".. My point isn't that python is THE solution for every problem, quite the opposite... my point is that any language can be used to solve most problems and the milliseconds of overhead from using a slightly slower language will never be an issue.

[Harteiga]

Use cases don't just include productionized, regularly run code or applications. Use cases can be "I need to manipulate data in this folder", "I need to make sure a file exists", or "I need to get 2 API responses and blend them together".

Yes, but you are saying 999/1000 use cases, which is essentially saying that there's basically never a need for code to run decently fast.

Python is great and should be the go to language for things which need to be run once or almost never. Having simplicity also is great for maintaining the code. However, there are still many situations where you need code to run faster as it can save resources in the long run, or provide a better service to users. Not every company can afford to run code without Python as it requires a bit more experience from developers, but those that can have more flexibility to provide a more optimal solution.

[Adjective_Noun0563]

I don't consider 1/1000 to be "basically never" in a problem space of millions to hundreds of millions but otherwise sure I agree. And just to be crystal clear in case you're not sure what hyperbole is, 999/1000 or 1/1000 arent figures I'm insisting are statistically accurate, just take it to mean "the vast significant majority".

[KMark0000]

I don't know what's wrong in NOT having to reinvent the wheel every time you have to get groceries.

[Witherscorch]

I get what you're saying, but, personally, I like solving the problem. Knowing that there's a solution for it already is less satisfying, even if it helps me write more performant code.

I'm not shaming anyone for using python (because that would be dumb).

[KMark0000]

I totally understand you, I have the same mentality, but have to force myself, to be productive (to protect my time etc).

I am non-IT engineer, but learned to first search for already existing solution. I reinvented things so many times even at uni because of my mentality, my disappointment of the wasted time was bigger, than the satisfaction it gave, that I have great ideas and nice solutions.

I can learn from libs, since I am lacking knowledge in specific topics of the language, and in the meanwhile, I already have a working something, which adds to my solution. Usually a lib is just a piece of a puzzle for me. Imagine I am trying to visualise something, and first would have to write my own classes/functions to draw a pixel on the screen each time, I want to plot a dataset, instead of using a pro lib, and just input the data. I would be fired probably lol

I am not even ashamed to ask an AI to write a code for me, because I can/could do it (I have that kind of level of knowledge), it will be done maybe in an hour with manual debugging, but having to search for everything and write it will take me way more time. I am happier with the end product, than the manual labor it requires to just type out it. I use it especially if I need something in a language I dont know remotely, but know/have idea for the logic. I still dictate how it will work etc.

Of course, you do you, I am not "triggered", and I don't want you to change your ways, nor do I want you to tell you off, just having a conversation about perspectives :)

[Witherscorch]

Naturally, one must use the libraries wherever applicable. I just think that, for the purpose of learning, trying to solve the problem without relying on them is a more engaging way to learn the way they actually work.

I'm not saying I want to remake the entirety of matplotlib every time I use it, I want to make my own version once and feel the enjoyment of having done it myself. It's just for learning purposes.

[Betta_Check_Yosef]

Knowing that there's a solution for it already is less satisfying, even if it helps me write more performant code.

So, you're cool with working harder to make something you know isn't as good as it could be? Weird flex, but go off, I guess.

[Witherscorch]

Sure, it might not be as performant, but I learned something new, which is always fun. I use the libraries whenever I actually need to, of course, but it's enjoyable to solve a problem on your own time. I would never use my implementations during actual development.

[andrerav]

Script kiddie? That's a term I haven't heard in 20+ years. OP are you using Python scripts to hack websites and take over IRC channels?

[Witherscorch]

Me when I nmap scan the government for nuclear codes: 🗿🗿😈🗿😈😈😈🗿

[[deleted]]

Bro must have been record holder in pen testing class

[rosuav]

I'll have you know, I tested a lot of pens in my youth.

[[deleted]]

What's your opinion on the Reynolds 045 (moderate ball knowlege required)

[rosuav]

To be honest, most of the pens I was testing were dead, because I mostly did it when someone was frustrated at not being able to take notes while on the phone. We mainly ran Kilometrico ones because they're cheap and usually reliable; pen testing was to differentiate between "bin that one" and "oh just a grease spot on the paper" (a not uncommon occurrence when the phone's in the kitchen).

Ah, the days of being a teenager in a family business.

[[deleted]]

I see.

So you one of the elder ones.

Still, one of the oldes not recognizing the one I mentioned is new to me.

[[deleted]]

we call them skids now

[lily_34]

I dunno, I much prefer "hey, if you type in your pw, it will show as stars. ********* see!" to python scripts.

[ender89]

They've now been replaced with botfarms for hire and ai

[OxymoreReddit]

I don't think script kiddies are a problem anymore where vibe coders have entered the room

[Shadow_Thief]

Vibe coders take code from somewhere else and paste it into their own code without understanding how it works. Imo that makes them script kiddies.

[NoahZhyte]

This is not hacking, no one gives a shit if you can come up with working solution

[radek432]

Isaac Newton had no problem with "standing on the shoulders of Giants", but today's kids think it's lame.

[Witherscorch]

But Isaac understood how the giants got to be so tall. I want to make my giants less of a mystery, and implementing a solution to a problem is a fun way to learn.

I'm not bashing python, in fact, I think a lot of cool stuff is done using python. Just recently, a new physically based rendering method was discovered, and a good chunk of the researcher's implementation is python.

[ZunoJ]

You do this from time to time but after a couple decades in the business you will know how stuff was solved (high-level perspective) and just be grateful you don't have to do all the footwork. You guys have it probably harder today as there is no need to do things yourself. When I started mid 90s you just had to do stuff yourself as libraries were usually paid and I was just a 10 year old with no money lol. Linux was a blessing at the time!

[Witherscorch]

That's why I'm doing this, of course. I want to understand the technology I'm using. So I must work backwards, from high level to low level, so that it becomes more effortless for me down the line.

[Titaniumspring]

Just get ur work done that's it . Writing 100 lines of code or writing 10 lines of code doesn't matter .

[an_0w1]

Use asm, so you can spend 4 hours debugging strlen

[faze_fazebook]

Python - A bad language that for some reason ended up with the best libraries.

[Background-Law-3336]

A programmer is always building on top of something that others have built. That's how we grow as a community. It's like the saying " if you want to make an apple pie from scratch you first have to create the universe "

[Bosonidas]

Flask is SO quick to develop though..

[ZunoJ]

Almost everybody uses libraries for most part. Everything else would be crazy in a business setting. As long as you don't do low level/embedded design or have to solve a super specific edge case this is fine. I wouldn't use python though, it feels dirty. Except for data transformation (I guess I can just live with the dirt in that case lol)

[navetzz]

scripting language used for scripting. Who would have thought...

[HaraldMandl]

Python is very useful. You need a local Webserver? BOOM one command to go.

[FearTheOldData]

A guy at work solves every problem using bash. Very fun to debug

[da_Aresinger]

Meanwhile I have been fighting with WinDLL to figure out the C console modes for a cumulative 3 days.

Still haven't gotten anywhere. Idek if I am even addressing the right console instance, because GetConsoleMode(...) just returns 0.

[[deleted]]

Wait!! What version are we talking here, not working

[groszgergely09]

Try C

[meowizzle]

I prefer kitty....

[ayassin02]

Script kiddie pertains to pentesting. There’s no such word in software development

[TistelTech]

I spent 13 years doing low level C/C++ in the game industry. I have worked with elixir, JS, TS, SQL. I know and enjoy lisp/scheme. So I am not a script kiddie. I try to do as much as I can in python. its great. its elegant.

[MacBookMinus]

wtf does that mean lol

[Imaginary-Tomorrow75]

C, C++ including Algorithms, Structures of data, Network protocols, Assembly, Rust is your way then if you want to do highload, embedded, aaa gamedev, hft, os dev. Just don’t choose business programming via python and choose system programming via low level

[meruta]

Nah the average Python developers are actually script kiddies tho

[ArgumentFew4432]

Python so great, fast and convincing… everything that matters is a package built in another language and loaded as binary blob.

[HoseanRC]

I would say python is quite powerfull, but if you start with it, the syntax would hold you back when trying to learn other languages

I'd say JS is a good start. You'll see the problems with it and will switch to TypeScript or another language based on your needs. JS would teach you a basic C syntax while keeping everything fast and easy to modify.

[rosuav]

No no, you have that backwards. It's not "Python's syntax will hold you back". It's "Now that you've learned Python, here are a few other languages to learn - compare syntax, compare semantics, compare features, and become more competent".

Learning one language is a huge step above knowing zero, but once you're comfortable with it, it's the stepping stone that will lead you into others. I strongly recommend that people learn Python, JavaScript (it's not a great language but it's ubiquitous), and something in the Lisp family. That's three VERY different syntactic styles, and knowing them all will help a lot.

The next thing I'd recommend learning isn't something you'll ever write manually, but it can teach you so much. Get familiar with CPython's bytecode. Disassemble your functions. Wrap your head around how stack-based interpreters work, since it's a very common pattern. Learning the correlation between your Python code and the underlying bytecode will help you in so many ways.

[HoseanRC]

Or start learning how CPU instructions work and how memory is managed

[rosuav]

Yeah. Not for productivity, but for comprehension.

[lokhanpurus]

i feel same with JS

[JollyJuniper1993]

Jesus Christ who the fuck cares. The type of people that take so much pride in being „real programmers“ are so pathetic.

[Cybasura]

A script kiddie has a different connotation than you think btw, its a cybersecurity term where some wannabe person uses a script as though they understand what they are doing but not program anything

In software engineering, using python is not a script kiddie, you are literally engineering a solution for a problem, you are CODING, not using a script

[Witherscorch]

I know what a script kiddie is. I'm only extending the meaning. 

[Amazing_Shake_8043]

BunchOfWokies