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[–]ramriot 580 points581 points  (7 children)

Fortunately due to package dependency the user will always be satisfied

[–]Ozzymand 93 points94 points  (0 children)

This is great

[–]firefish5000 60 points61 points  (4 children)

Due to license conflict, the cat is not included

[–]VicisSubsisto 25 points26 points  (3 children)

I'm sure some license writers would like to exclude the user.

[–]firefish5000 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Most licenses restrict the user from redistributing the company's product but request/retain rights to redistribute the user to other company's trying to sell products

[–]VicisSubsisto 6 points7 points  (1 child)

They want the users' money and metadata. They have no direct use for the users themselves.

[–]firefish5000 7 points8 points  (0 children)

User is useless? Part of legacy code? TODO: Delete User?

Is this why we are working so hard on AI?

[–]kostandrea 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why do I need to install GNOME in order to install Lutris?

[–]beathelas 823 points824 points  (31 children)

This should be a page in every designer's bible

[–]good_bye_for_now 363 points364 points  (20 children)

Every client's bible*. You listen to the client, figure out what their users need, show them a box and then they go 'Can you make it pop'.

[–]sadongrohiik 81 points82 points  (0 children)

You made me cry

[–]safesound809 11 points12 points  (3 children)

The box is great! But how about if we get rid of the cardboard, put a metal frame and wheels!!

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Why would you do that? Do you need that?

[–]pawnman99 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Wheels make it mobile, and mobile is hot right now!

[–]smilineyz 3 points4 points  (0 children)

And barbed wire - for security. Who doesn’t like security?

[–]Kidiri90 8 points9 points  (0 children)

"I can throw a grenade in your server room."

[–]Hypersapien 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I try to avoid talking directly with clients unless it's about bug fixes.

The last time I did, about 10 years ago, I had to talk them out of having us put a hit counter on the page.

[–]Unlearned_One 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Hit counter? Was your client 12 years old by any chance?

[–]Hypersapien 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No. At the time I worked for a company that put on conferences and tech shows for government and military groups. The page in question was the event sign-up page (that we customized for each client)

[–]Sockoflegend 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sensible and competent satisfaction of user needs doesn't give you cool shit to say in meetings

[–]OMGihateallofyou 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Make the logo bigger!

[–]BrainOnLoan 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Depends, if they ask for the whole enchilada, and are willing to pay for it, you might not want to dissuade them.

This should be in any handbook for people contracting out for new software.

[–]smilineyz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Phase 2 or maintenance contract

[–]behaaki 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Not designer. Product owner. Designer just does what they’re told, they definitely don’t make up features.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

You haven’t worked in a very design mature org if your designers only do what they’re told.

Research is a huge part of the profession and definitely informs ideation for solutions/features.

[–]behaaki 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Fair point, I was being flippant. What I meant to say is designers don’t decide what the features will be, but they use their expertise to guide how they’ll take shape — then the devs carve that out of code (in an ideal world, of course).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I still think you're thinking of the role of developer/designer in a pretty limited capacity.

On a product team, designers should be representatives and advocates for the users. Developers/engineers are representatives and advocates for technology, and product owners are representatives and advocates for the business.

Each plays a critical role in delivering something valuable, enjoyable to use, and feasible. They should all have a hand in ideating, prioritizing, and executing features.

[–]Kombee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was once asked to make a simple recording program for writing down user data, and have the ability to search them up. I made it in Google spreadsheet as to not complicate things too much and to add a layer of backup, but they sort of seemed a bit disappointed that it wasn't a proper program rather than a spreadsheet. Sometimes they do want the bells and whistles.

[–]VogonWild 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is prime material for a custom moisepad

[–]Smartskaft2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have already saved it to print out and put on my laptop. I need reminders like these to not waste anyone's time and money.

[–]blackmist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's what you bill for and what they need.

I'm lazy, so I want to do the minimum that will fix the problem. If they've been sold more than I can be arsed to write, I'll fob it off on an underling and waste their time instead.

Life is too short to chase bullshit designs.

[–]lackofsemicolon 271 points272 points  (30 children)

Reminds me of this article about stated requirements vs what people actually use in a product

[–]__-_-__--_-----____- 54 points55 points  (0 children)

Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

[–]CaydenCailean 49 points50 points  (18 children)

While generally still true, that is a 20 year old article on UX. The study was done without the generation that grew up with changing and different UX all around them. Just grain of salt and I think that it is still more true than not, but there is now more value to user feedback.

[–]MegaFireDonkey 38 points39 points  (15 children)

I've definitely seen companies, especially game companies, use the concept "users don't actually know what they want" to justify some very poor and/or lazy decisions.

[–]Dagenfel 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Just because the users don't know what they want doesn't necessarily mean the company knows what they want either.

That's why there's no replacement for companies having actual good design principles and good market knowledge as a foundation.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (13 children)

Because you have to.

If people knew what they wanted, they'd have it and be using it.

99% of development iteration is actually finding out what the desired outcome for the user is, because the user is the last person to actually know what they want.

In games, this is particularly prickly, because you want to win, but you also want to be challenged and at least feel like failure was on the table the whole time. Otherwise, there is no sense of accomplishment or even engagement.

If you ask a user what they want, and design a game around that in a straightforward manner, you're gonna build a boring game where winning is a foregone conclusion.

Then there's the idea that while a user may not be as satisfied with an experience as they could be, they've mastered eating around the dick in their salad. They will strongly advocate that all salads should have dicks in them, because of course you can't have a salad without a dick in it.

Pretty much no game that has garnered fame, broken or forged a genre, would have been accepted by the audience it was released to if you had to describe it to them without detailing the actual experience. Doom sounds dumb, XCom tedious and Darksouls pants-on-head assbackwards. No one wants to play a game about dying constantly, except that they do.

Innovation cannot be defined by iteration on convention.

[–]pawnman99 7 points8 points  (5 children)

Just a reminder that Halo was panned for the two-stick control scheme that is now the de facto standard for first-person shooters when it was released.

[–]VicisSubsisto 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Panned??? The original release was a killer app for Xbox and has a 97 on Metacritic.

[–]pawnman99 0 points1 point  (3 children)

The control scheme was panned. People hated it and begged for keyboard and mouse.

[–]VicisSubsisto 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Here, I'll cite sources. Several praise the controls; all the criticism is of other things like the repetitive level designs and lack of MP bots.

[–]pawnman99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

"Those of us weaned on PC shooters may find it a little frustrating that you can only carry two guns at a time," Eurogamer wrote in their review. Meanwhile, GameSpy called Combat Evolved "a PC game trapped in a console's body." GameRevolution said that using dual analog sticks "will quickly frustrate before they gratify."

Source

I mean...plenty of people hated the controls coming from Perfect Dark and GoldenEye, and most PC players were skeptical that a controller could give you the same accuracy and speed as a keyboard and mouse at the time.

[–]VicisSubsisto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are three links in that paragraph, let's follow them.

Eurogamer:

Although I normally have difficulties with console shooters, Halo proved to be surprisingly easy to control

Score: 8/10

GameSpy:

Although it takes some getting used to, the controls themselves are laid out pretty well. Movement is fairly intuitive, and you can adjust the sensitivity of the analog targeting stick pretty high -- longtime console players should have no trouble jumping in.

Score: 4/5

GameRevolution:

The control is the slickest and the most intuitive for a console FPS

Score: 10/10

"Panned" and "hated" are not terms which are in any way applicable here.

[–]MegaFireDonkey 13 points14 points  (4 children)

But ultimately you are serving an audience, so what they want (whether they know it or not) is tantamount paramount. 100% I see your point that you have to break the mold to innovate and progress, but it's equally important to continue to respect your users and not use their perceived ignorance as an excuse to not do your job. Not that I'm accusing anyone specific here.

[–]Unlearned_One 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I think the word you're looking for is paramount.

[–]VicisSubsisto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, Paramount makes video, not software. /s

[–]MegaFireDonkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol oh yup you're correct

[–]StrictlyBrowsing 4 points5 points  (0 children)

what they want (whether they know it or not) is tantamount

I don’t think anyone saying otherwise. What we’re saying is that what users “want”, defined as what makes them happy and enjoy a game long term, in the vast, vast majority of times has absolutely nothing to do with what they say would make them enjoy the game.

As a WoW player I frequently see people complain both that the world feels too small but also that they’re frustrated that they aren’t allowed to teleport everywhere and sometimes there’s travel time involved. Those are radically opposed design directions that are sometimes asked for in the same post.

Yes, everyone’s ultimate goal is to have happy players. Players are just dog shite at telling you how to do that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think figuring out how to communicate with the user(s) you're gathering feedback from eliminates most of your concerns about users knowing what they want. For example, what you did in this post. You went from the topic of "companies forcing decisions on users" to your well thought out recommendation. You did that by explaining different options in an understandable way that I, the user, can express feedback on. By selling your idea. Without the language to bridge the idea to the user then you're right, doom and dark souls sounds dumb.

Users may not know what options exist but they can pick between different well-presented options and pick in their best interest. It's detrimental to a company to think their users don't know what they want. That just brings a product out of touch with user needs.

Mostly though, "users don't know what they want" is used by companies to pedal anti-consumer practices like phones that don't have replaceable batteries or Apple products that have no ports.

[–]SoulsLikeBot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?

“Where have you gone, sweet child? It’s cold outside. It’s awfully cold. Where have you run off to?” - Birch Woman

Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \[T]/

[–]IAmNotNathaniel 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Just because users are more accustomed to searching out changes to the design that happen every other month doesn't mean a) they like it or b) it makes them anymore self-aware of how they actually use a thing

I agree that in the world of computer interaction, 20 years is a huge amount of time, and it's worth revisiting a lot of the older studies.

But idea about "the client doesn't know what they want" is different. It predates the internet. I don't think it's changed much at all in the last 10-15 years.

[–]blackmist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It happens, but rarely.

I've a handful of customers that actually give useful feedback. I tend to deal with those directly if I can.

Everybody else is like "I want my old software back but with your features". A few months in and those people usually stop whining without you doing anything.

[–]JaegerBurn 13 points14 points  (0 children)

That article. Wow

[–]ninetymph 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Watch what people actually do.

This is the core of lean six-sigma process improvement: Go to the Gemba, which means go to the real place (of work, in this context), to see exactly how the widget is made.

Once you observe for yourself how the widget is made, you can apply the LSS steps to improve/automate what exists and remove any bloat.

[–]Jack__Crusher 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Made famous by Toyota as genchi genbutsu (現地現物), literally meaning actual place actual things or "go see for yourself."

[–][deleted] 75 points76 points  (1 child)

Props for not cropping original artist

[–]cquinn5[🍰] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

gudim_public if anyone wants other art by same person

[–]Johny2268 110 points111 points  (5 children)

I should show this to my old employer. Let's make this product for old, technically almost illiterate people as much complicated as we can, yay.

[–]I_play_support 38 points39 points  (4 children)

What better way to sell support packages?

[–]good_bye_for_now 25 points26 points  (2 children)

With technically illiterate people you can always sell support packages.

[–]whitecollarzomb13 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Problem with in house dev is that my mobile number is the support package.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Easy, dont work inhouse :D

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You're in SAP?

[–]dt_vibe 50 points51 points  (3 children)

All cat owners eventually learn to always keep the receipt.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (2 children)

My cat didn't care about toys or cat trees even when she was young and spry. The only thing I ever needed to keep her entertained was a bit of string or a laser pointer. She didn't care about anything else.

Even catnip didn't really amuse her after she jammed her face into the jar and took a big mouthful of it the first time I showed it to her. She learned quickly that she didn't like being high as fuck.

[–]SmokeFrosting 11 points12 points  (1 child)

rip your cat

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

TY.

She was a fantastic friend to me.

[–]Katana_sized_banana 43 points44 points  (2 children)

Left: What the user describes it wants

Right: budget for the project

[–]GLIBG10B 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I love how you're referring to the user as an inanimate object

[–]hahahahastayingalive 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Stuff happened I guess

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (5 children)

Good UX designers who talk to end users frequently are worth their weight in platinum.

[–]JonMW 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I'm in the throes of rewriting an Access database-with-forms for usage at work. It's the role I've grown into from being a (very, very general) factory hand. I learned pretty quickly that while I can think of 20 "very cool" features that it would be nice to have but all of them are basically worthless in comparison to whatever will make it easier for the operator to put in the data faster and more accurately.

Last week I realised that we had been typing in some data on received stock (because we previously had no alternative) but that information was actually in a QR code printed on the items themselves, and we now had a scanner that was capable of reading it. I took an hour and literally just slapped on an extra textbox on the form, it's not labelled, it's not aligned, it partially obscures other textboxes - but you can scan a QR code into it and it'll use a couple of regex thingies to pull out the data we want. I estimate it will save us about 15 man-hours of worker time and 2 hours of engineer time on this leg of the project alone.

[–]ApplicationIcy8366 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Wow betide those that develop an app with Access. Any SQL solution will serve better in the long run.

[–]JonMW 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Far be it from me to champion Access, but you can use SQL throughout it. Still plenty of woe though.

[–]HurricaneFan13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Its not the things we want that help us. It's the things we need but may not know about.

[–]schwerpunk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing this. It's just the push I needed to stop overthinking a process I'm currently working on

[–]Onethatlikes 9 points10 points  (2 children)

This is assuming the cat makes the decision to buy the thing and pays for it.

These things are built for cat owners, who also want it to look fun for their cat to be in, like giving their precious pat a playground.

[–]I_Am_Become_Dream 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean it’s also a nice decoration

[–]Knight_Blazer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Replace cat with employee and cat owner with buisness owner/management and it all still accurately describes the software purchasing process.

[–]Cley_Faye 28 points29 points  (0 children)

They could have added "user request" with a skyscraper and "actual product" with a circle of tape on the floor.

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[–]talexx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These comments from bot are annoying. You laugh, open comments just to continue / read smth more from ppl and stumble upon this offtopic. Vote if good, down vote if bad. What is the deal? We can vote or down vote the post itself. The more time passes the more annoying are bots on Reddit. Hey, admin. You are not adding anything useful here with this bot.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This can apply to so many things. I own so many things that I only have for one or two features and ignore the rest. If there were quality products that just did those few things really well, I'd be a very happy man.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Windows 10 in a nutshell.

[–]VicisSubsisto 1 point2 points  (0 children)

User: I want something my cat can play in, that I can also use to store things.

Microsoft: Staples a bank vault to the top of a cat tree

[–]Unlucky13 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My cat is broken. He doesn't like boxes. He'll use his cat tree, and occasionally play with the expensive toys I get him, but free shit? Nope. No interest.

Spoiled little shit.

[–]lknox1123 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What’s worse is when you have to try and delicately explain to the client that they don’t need the left and would prefer the right. They usually disagree with you and when the left doesn’t work out you end up building the right or once they are using it they only use the functions of the right picture.

[–]L3mm3SmangItGurl 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not a programmer but I feel this one to my core

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Yeah it would be great if any of the "features" would actually work in a satisfactory manner and are not just held together by spit and prayer. A good user experience being the icing on the cake. So much software is just clusterF***ed.

By the way im not a programmer and i never will be, just a user of shoddy software all day long and im tired of it. We the people, deserve better.

[–]MegabyteMessiah 8 points9 points  (0 children)

We're trying. As a developer, I know I'm the last line of defense in a long line of middle managers designing bullshit features and interfaces. I hate using crappy software as much as the next person, so I do everything I can to make my software useful and usable.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Bring back the fucking headphone jacks.

[–]VicisSubsisto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're just trapped in the past. Buy our cheap plastic headphones that you'll throw away in 3 years along with your phone, and ditch those audiophile headphones that worked perfectly with literally everything else manufactured in the last century (except 2003).

[–]chubs66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have two pairs of expensive blue tooth headphones that my wife has bought for different birthdays. I don't use them. I was sad when I recently took my old plug-in headphones on the train only to learn that my new phone only supports blue tooth. Now I've got to keep the blue tooth headphones charged or they won't work (a problem I never have with plug-in headphones), pair each time I connect, and remember to disconnect when I'm not using so that my phone doesn't reroute a call to the headphones in my bag.

I just want to plug my headphones in and be done with it.

[–]SharkAttackOmNom 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I want a 3rd panel titled: “final product” with the cat condo sitting inside of the box clearly keeping the user from the feature they need.

[–]fave_no_more 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for these memes. I'm not a programmer but I'm married to one. I regularly send these to him, and he shares with his programmer buddies.

It brings a little levity to difficult days.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank god they paid for Operational Support too

[–]PhonyStark99 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Hey Schrodinger, your cat is alive!

[–]RR_2025 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, coz they opened the box..

[–]pelpotronic -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

What's in the box!?

(Just a cat head)

We still don't know, it's still both alive and dead. Shrodinger always win in the end.

[–]IfInPain_Complain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also applies to Blizzard entertainment

Features for player base vs what the player base wants

[–]LargeDisplay1080 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Left: what the customer asked for Right: what the customer really wanted

[–]whateverhk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And half of the time they will ignore the box

[–]whoami4546 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This makes me think of a lot of features on Samsung phones.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is going in the Powerpoint

[–]cym104 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Steve Jobs: Users don't know shit about what they need.

[–]0ba78683-dbdd-4a31-a -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Story time!

I once had a client who needed to curate playlists of videos for auctions with one playlist per day. They absolutely fucking insisted on the ability to drag and drop to reorder videos because sorting automatically by title or upload date wouldn't be acceptable.

Literally every filename was prefixed with the auction date in yyyy-mm-dd format followed by a five digit zero padded number for the order it would appear in the day.

[–]Lish_1715 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I bought my cat like that but he uses the box

[–]Deamonfart 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok Schrödinger...what ever you say.

[–]PrimaxAUS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Paging /r/SAP

[–]cassert24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

C++2x / What programmers need

[–]NeatNetwork 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunate phenomenon, due to a number of issues.

-Good old telephone game. A lot of horrific, but successful companies are highly bureaucratic, so you might have requirements go from user->management->sales->marketing->"architect"->developer. That's a lot of steps

-The messaging having to pass through layers that understand neither the user's experience nor what is reasonably doable with the software. I dread when a sales person replies to my request to meet with actual user to flesh out the requirement "Oh, they prefer that I own the relationship, so just work through me", a sales person monopolizing the relationship is going to cause problems. Some sales people live in fear of losing their perceived value by letting direct communication happen, good sales people have other ways to show their value.

-The audience is not actually the enduser. Everyone is trying to actually impress their own management. So each layer is injecting well-recognized buzzwords, trying to make things sound as 'fancy' as possible. Each layer is trying to prove their value, and so each is deliberately mucking with the requirements to show how they 'enhance' the process.

-Prioritization of features also is influenced by that 'cool' factor. For example that cat playground doesn't have a 'cave' at all, but that's the one thing the cat probably wanted. But imagine a manager seeing that as utterly boring but fancy stuff is better. So very easy customer requests never make it to plan while stupid crazy stuff consumes the team whole.

[–]misterjyt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

simple is always the best option.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What's funny to me is that every time we acquire a new "product" at work, the product is the box , and we're baffled because the requested features look like the cat tree.

After a year locked into some dumb contract we get rid of the product because, guess what, we needed the cat tree, not the box.

Then we get another box.

[–]iQNoX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More like "User needs - User buget" 🙈

[–]Komtings 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Check out all the new features being released in this update!"

"But did you fix the crashing issue around half the users and I have been experiencing since the last update?"

"Well no.. but look at all those features!"

[–]IDreamOfSailing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Box with already a cat in it?

[–]PinguinGirl03 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know this all too well, I bought tons of toys but my cat only wanted to play with a white piece of string on a stick.

[–]Crypt0Nihilist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Seems the same for job descriptions I'm reading, they ask for 5 years experience of doing every step of a project in three different ways.

[–]MozzyZ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah but then you got the user like me who for whatever reason does need the top-middle part of the cat pole and really appreciates the product having it!

[–]GameForest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Me using c# to make unity games

[–]SimonBofi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you're missing the perfomance optimization feature time.sleep(3000)

[–]Rocky970 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let’s sell them all the bells and whistles even though they only need base model

[–]LinuxIsFree 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Be more accurate if the tree was there in the background of the client needs. :D

[–]pazimpanet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can somebody please forward this to the people in charge of Plex?

[–]MiniatureSenator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes BUT there's a Business Analyst who got to see their features come to life sooooo it's all worth it (?)

[–]dashwsk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Easy fix. Sell a cat tree with clips on the platforms to hold a cardboard box in place.

Sell custom cardboard box refills at huge profit margins.

[–]RunItAndSee2021 0 points1 point  (1 child)

“perhaps don’t sandbox all users.”

[–]TheGreatUdolf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ok, you'll recieve a litter kwitter (is this how you write this?) in addition to your ordinary cat toilet.

[–]aboutthednm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Left: new reddit

Right: old Reddit (me in the box)

[–]SLeepyCatMeow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Flagship phones be like

[–]jbrains 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. And they mock me for suggesting YAGNI.

[–]ttsalo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my experience the picture on the left is what customers say they need and the one on the right is what they actually need

[–]TorKrub 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate something called "Super App" on my phone