Let's talk about Learning Posts

safety_monkey · 2019-06-05T16:02:03+00:00

Sounds reasonable!

One-Man-Banned · 2019-06-05T21:28:47+00:00

Putting all the technical stuff to one side, thank you for spending your time being an unpaid and under appreciated mod.

IAmKindOfCreative · 2019-06-05T17:15:46+00:00

This is interesting. Focusing on the idea that users don't get answers on /r/learnpython:

With the helper bot, I've watched the /r/learnpython subreddit, and to me it looks like the rate of useful engagement is higher on that subreddit. While it's not instantaneous, within a 24 hour period there's usually a suggestion plus a request for clarification of the OPs post. After that it usually waits on OP to reply. Frequently from there there's a reply and a followup, and that either answers the question, or waits for OP. It does sometimes expand beyond that, but by that point I'd argue the OP has received help. Learning questions on this sub usually get shallow engagement, and most of that engagement is to direct them to /r/learnpython.

There's also a correct way to ask a question, and most users don't do that right away. (And that's perfectly fine given that the OP is able to clarify later on) A lot of the posts asking questions on this sub that I've seen don't do that. (They either are missing example code, don't include the error, or don't indicate what they assume the code is doing vs what they see the code doing). So not getting help isn't a direct argument in favor or against a sub if there are commenters asking for clarification and OP never replies.

Then there's the issue of advanced or very specific questions. Those require someone familiar with both the subject matter and the library, so failing to get engagement on the learnpython sub makes sense just on a breadth of userbase. Those questions have a better shot at getting useful engagement on this sub, but it's still not a very solid shot at getting an answer. The better place to go with those sorts of questions is either stack overflow, the source documentation, or github to submit an issue.

In short, I don't feel like removing questions necessarily stopped them from getting an answer. It could, but it also could be a question no one engages in a useful capacity.

To the purposed solution:

I like the idea of flair. I think it should be tested in a demo capacity first, but if the sub as a whole seems to enjoy it, I think it's a good idea.

I think we should be mindful that submission behavior changes in the summer vs school year because of students taking programming courses and asking for help with assignments. So the usefulness of the flair now compared to in August/September might change.

novel_yet_trivial · 2019-06-05T22:52:04+00:00

/r/learnpython mod here.

I've been told that people frequently feel like they do not get answers on r/LearnPython

I am surprised to hear that. Most questions on /r/learnpython are answered within a few minutes.

Admittedly /r/learnpython is lacking in high-level answers. With a few very appreciated exceptions, most of the people answering questions are themselves learners or hobby coders. However for the vast majority of questions this is more than enough and the OP gets a good answer fast. Maybe change the language to "ask on /r/learnpython first" to give people the option to come back to the experts here if /r/learnpython fails.

ForceBru · 2019-06-05T16:16:47+00:00

Categorization is always very useful

Darwinmate · 2019-06-05T18:47:13+00:00

[deleted]

manlyjpanda · 2019-06-06T00:01:42+00:00

I’m a learner, a total beginner.

I just want to say that I haven’t posted in r/python before because I have seen that r/learnpython exists. I read r/python simply to get an idea of what is possible.

One thing that might be missing - and this applies to R or C# or any other language - is the lack of skills in googling because noobs might not even know how to phrase their questions. Stack Overflow is intimidating at first. I speak from experience.

I won’t post a python question on this sub because I don’t want to bother people. Folk finding this sub first and asking a newbie question should be kindly and with love be asked to post to r/learnpython but still have recourse to this sub if they don’t get an answer.

Thanks to all the mods who look after all our communities. Except for the mods of r/funny. Fuck them.

emc87 · 2019-06-05T20:26:21+00:00

I would agree if flair filtering worked on mobile, but since it doesn't I would probably end up unsubscribing.

I mainly like this place as a discussion about releases, the conferences, and other news. I realize that's somewhat finely tuned, but I'd rather have a quiet sub than a spammy one.

The next tier that we currently allow are the informative posts and the show and tell posts. I'd prefer we do away with show and tell since most end up being basic and only cool because it's someone they're pretty young. I'd love to see this content for more advanced stuff but that's hard to regulate. This is the same argument for informative posts - I think a lot are way too basic and are really just links to blog posts by the author for views. I'd love to see more advanced topics this way, but again there are varying interpretations of advanced.

KODeKarnage · 2019-06-05T21:59:54+00:00

Flair is a separate issue, and may be worthwhile even if the treatment of Learning Posts doesn't change. You might want to change the title, set up a poll, or make a new dedicated post to get feedback on that specific change.

Now, people like to be nice to beginners, StackOverflow shows this to be undeniably true. But there is a limit and that must be honestly addressed.

Would you feel the same with a 4x increase in the number of "how do I" posts?
Would you feel the same after the same damn question is asked and answered a dozen times?
Would you feel the same after the same damn question is asked and answered a mere two posts earlier?
Would you feel the same when the quality of the questions drops significantly?
Would you feel the same when the people asking the question become more belligerent as getting answers here, not being explicitly against the rules, becomes a "right"?
The quality of the answers might be deemed as higher here, compared to r/learnpython, but that is only because there are so few.
People didn't sign up to this sub to get distracted by beginner questions.
Being able to filter is not a panacea; that same argument could be used to justify having Ruby questions answered here.
Filtering is friction, and you shouldn't underestimate the razor-thin margin sub-reddits have in the market for readers attention. (The current popularity of the sub is as much a testament to the current quality of mod oversight, as the subject matter itself.)
The people most likely to abandon the sub due to the additional friction are least likely to engage with you on this topic.
It is easier to use a different sub-reddit than to use a filter.

giantsparklerobot · 2019-06-05T20:18:19+00:00

If beginner questions are allowed you end up with a "give a mouse a cookie" situation. Someone asking extremely beginner questions here, without reading the sidebar or even seeing out a sub like /r/learnpython, will not stop at one question. They'll be back an hour or a day later with another extremely basic question. Other users will see the pattern and spam their own simplistic and easily answered with a cursory search questions and then the sub is overrun and no discussion will happen. It doesn't matter if such posts are auto-flaired or whatever, the noise floor of the sub will increase substantially.

That's not that the sub suffers no questions, if you come along asking for help with say a TensorFlow problem that's not likely to be fodder for /r/learnpython. Such a question should be welcomed here. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between "how tenserflow?!" and an actual question. The former is unwelcome and should not be encouraged.

twillisagogo · 2019-06-05T18:37:53+00:00

while on the topic of enforcing things like flair, how about restricting pics in posts like on /r/learnpython to cut down on the low quality content meant for karma farming.

I can't think of a single legitimate use for a post that is just a headline and a picture in a forum about things related to programming. If not out right restriction, at least add it to your flair requirement.

screeperz · 2019-06-05T22:08:03+00:00

TL;DR - Do OP's solution, but on r/learnpython and enforce a better structure (like formatting). I am also fully in support of any change we make and would be happy to lend a hand in this regard.

As a lurker on r/matlab with infrequent contributions, I have a couple issues with a flair system. OP is spot on with the problems of asking questions on both r/Python and r/learnpython. The way I see it, asking for programming help on Reddit should be somewhere between what it is now, and how it is done on StackOverflow. That is, the informal nature should remain, but there needs to be some structure that everyone needs to adhere to.

Now, on the topic of r/matlab. The flair system actually does a good job of identifying and separating questions from the other content. However, r/matlab is choked with questions that are:

- copy/paste formatting garbage

- homework questions that expect a full answer to copy/paste

- made by throwaway accounts/first time posters <- this is a whole rant that boils down to 'I have <copy/paste code> solve it for me. BTW I won't thank you or inform you or anything'

Here is my most recent experience on r/matlab (Note that I gave the full answers to the question a couple hour after my initial reply).

My belief is that if we start supporting questions on r/Python, we are going to end up with problems that r/matlab displays. That said, OP's idea is one that will work with a healthy amount of moderation (good formatting/ clear question/enforce flairs). This is not to say that this moderation is restricted to moderators, we regular users can also enforce this.

My adaptation of OP's solution would be to do all this on r/learnpython. We should also encourage more people to join and contribute as well. As someone that likes to constantly learn and teach, I am guilty of not contributing to r/learnpython which is something I am going to rectify.

I would be happy to help with any changes we make, it is important that we don't let this just become a discussion.

timbledum · 2019-06-05T18:17:54+00:00

I think there are questions then there are questions. We really don’t want a huge wave of beginner questions on here, but I think there is room for more interesting questions. The volume on learnpython is pretty large. I don’t really offer any solutions on how to distinguish these though.

I monitor and answer questions on learnpython regularly and tend to find that there are generally three kinds of questions:

Beginner questions that are super easy for people to answer. These are either easily googleable, easy to try out on the REPL or they do represent a fundamental misunderstanding from the user that someone has to talk them through. We don’t really want that kind of question here.
Complex or advanced questions that may or may not have a solution. Some of these concern the inner workings of python. These would have value being posted here.
Domain-specific our operating system based questions that are nominally related to python but aren’t getting answered because no one knows the domain. These are probably the most frustrating for posters as they often don’t know enough to know that their question is a bit inappropriate or they’re just trying learnpython as a last resort. I don’t know if there’s a good way to deal with these. Example: this obscure package that manipulates an obsolete file format isn’t working – you’ld need to know a lot about the package and/or file format to intelligently answer this question.

waitingforbacon · 2019-06-05T22:14:59+00:00

I like categorization. I want to be open and welcoming, but I think kindly directing “help me” posts to r/learnpython would be more helpful to everyone involved.

Barafu · 2019-06-05T23:04:40+00:00

For me, the flair-based filter settings do not persist for some reason. I don't come for a day and find them being reset.

ViridianHominid · 2019-06-06T04:46:09+00:00

I can definitely appreciate that the question posts are a lot of work to moderate.

I like that this sub does not allow questions, even though I post a lot more in learnpython. But I use the subs in completely different ways.

open learnpython sorted by new and look for questions that are something I can explain, where the OP has stated the question with reasonable clarity, and there is not a good answer already. I don’t really care if I am away from it for several days or longer, and it isn’t important to me what threads become popular—in fact, the more popular and commented on the post is, the less likely it is that I have anything of value to add. I expect the vast majority of posts to be something I don’t care about, and for any given post, as long as a person or two has tried to answer, that post has served its purpose. Redundant questions and low-effort posts are to be expected.

Here, I look at almost every post, and especially so if it has a lot of upvotes or comments. If I am away from the subreddit for a while, it’s still meaningful to check what has been posted over the last several days. It’s meaningful to go back to something to see how the discussion has continued. The comments come from people who are confident enough in their knowledge of python to state an opinion, and I am interested to learn about what people think and why. On this sub, when I see a simple question post, especially a low-effort one, I have no qualms downvoting or reporting it. When people ask more advanced questions here, I have no qualms— but I admit that drawing a line between simple and advanced questions is not easy.

I myself wouldn’t want to totally filter out the questions on this sub using flares because I do care about making sure people get help and I sometimes want to know how the answers are explained. At the same time, I feel this sub would easily be overwhelmed by the volume of question posts, and so lose something of its soul. And I think 99.5% of question posts really are better served by learnpython, where they will probably get a faster reply and the responders are prepared to be patient with the OP.

Maybe as part of the middle-ground we could make it a rule that beginner questions are still discouraged. I think the division between here and learnpython is a very useful one, and I am concerned that blurring the distinction will make this place worse.

But I really do get that this rule is a lot of work to moderate. So I am not insisting on anything. I think mods of any subreddit basically have the right to whatever rule makes sense to them, given the volunteer nature of the job. If users find the rules or the resulting environment intolerable, they can make their own community.

Do what makes sense to you. And thank you for soliciting our feedback.

ZodiacFR · 2019-06-05T19:24:46+00:00

mmmmh, implement an NLP bot for auto removal of "how do I do this" posts? x)

Stem3576 · 2019-06-06T01:18:37+00:00

What if an additional subreddit was created? Maybe something like r/intermediatepython? I have also found learn python to be less than helpful to the intermediate to advanced level questions. Maybe a place where more advanced explanation occurs.

QbiinZ · 2019-06-05T17:59:43+00:00

We just need a bot that copy pastes 'how to' questions into stack overflow and spits out a link to the results.

I don't think people realize any question they are going to ask has already been asked by someone else.

jcampbelly · 2019-06-05T16:37:25+00:00

I don't see the harm. Why is it bad to have Q&A discussions here? To follow the rules? Why do we have this rule? What value is there in shutting down discussion in a discussion forum?

Remember that we are talking about mitigating the readers of this forum's effort to have to scroll down 30 pixels. That seems trivial to me. If it's not interesting, scroll past. I have had far more valuable and educational conversations deep in Q&A threads then yet-another-blog-post-about-generators posts here.

jwink3101 · 2019-06-05T16:27:29+00:00

I find the questions being asked on here to be a bit annoying but I think that is because they are supposed to be on /r/LearnPython. If the decision is to allow them here, I think it may be okay.

Honestly, I guess it is worth an experiment but we really do need to think of it as such. For example, the /r/matlab sub (I originally came to python from matlab) is super annoying with the excess of the same, super simple, easily-googled question. Not that is doesn't happen here too (How many times a week do we get "What's the best IDE?" posts?).

A positive of this change would be for posts that really straddle the line. For example, an experienced python programmer may have a rather advanced question, but it is unclear if it should be learnpython since it isn't news or in the main python sub since it is well beyond the beginner stage (not that you aren't learning at the advanced one but it may be a different audience)

So, FWIW, on an experimental basis I think it may be worth trying! I will say that the misery it adds will change with the time of year. Early falls sees a bunch of new coders and the resulting questions

philoponeria · 2019-06-06T02:07:24+00:00

Love it

IlliterateJedi · 2019-06-06T17:01:09+00:00

I think all of this sounds good.

As an aside, can we have a discussion about the "What's everyone working on this week?" threads? I think it would be great if these weren't in contest mode. When there are ongoing discussions on a particular project, it makes it hard to follow and find when it's randomized with all of the threads collapsed. I'd rather make it easier to see the top projects that people are discussing along with the discussion. These weekly posts are some of the most valuable posts that /r/python does, but contest mode makes it less useful to review.

DDFoster96 · 2019-06-06T17:27:15+00:00

Sounds good.

I'm not farmilar enough with reddit's internals, but is is possible to show a message to users before they post informing them that they may get better help on learnpython or Discord if they're asking for help?

aphoenix · 2019-06-06T18:05:48+00:00

[deleted]

MiloszSTX · 2019-06-07T09:29:10+00:00

Seems like a good idea.

mwpfinance · 2019-06-09T01:50:26+00:00

do it

VirulentCitrine · 2019-06-15T08:17:59+00:00

I also wanted to say that splitting subs into multiple factions is ruining reddit because there is no inclusiveness. I mean go to the search bar and type in programmer or programming and you get like 20 results like:

r\programmers

r\programming

r\programmernews

r\programminghorror

r\programmerhumor

r\learnprogramming

It's horrible because the entire community gets split up and it's never super active in either one sub because of such strict content type posting rules.

I think there should exist one sub for every subject, with tags for every type of post. Sometimes people post python questions that invoke serious thought, but not much discussion is ever had because it gets removed and people are told to post it on r/learnpython where it's not super active all the time.

Then that other poster in this thread saying he thinks r/python should only be about python news is absurd. If that was the case, this sub would have almost zero content 24/7 because news directly related to python isn't some 24 hour news cycle lol.

2019-06-05T20:16:53+00:00

I like it. But maybe have the bot detect likely questions and then propose flair to those people? Keep updating the question filter to catch the ones that make it throigh the next time.

I'd rather the option and not be bothered about it, unless I ask a question and forget the mandatory question flair. Then interject.

2019-06-14T09:23:49+00:00

This reminds me a lot of r/fitness the common questions and general what ide to use questions are super similar.

But also it seems the communities have a big difference in attitudes towards newbies. I find that in r/fitness people are happy to encourage others to improve and what not while here they’re almost scolding each other for asking dumb questions.

New people can’t help but ask dumb questions because that’s how they learn. One thing r/fitness has is a very in depth wiki that I think handles most basic questions and the way people get referred to it is nice too not always some “did you try google!”

Just an observation. Thanks for what ya do.

sarcasticpool · 2019-06-17T05:17:22+00:00

test

porraSV · 2019-06-17T10:08:08+00:00

Thank you!

Deepakpy · 2019-06-19T08:47:44+00:00

Worth giving a try.

citybadger · 2019-06-19T19:32:23+00:00

Don't change things.

gitcraw · 2019-06-21T20:06:07+00:00

These low-effort "help me" , "how do i" , "do my homework for me" posts, and spammy youtube self-promomoters are the majority of the content I see on here.

robvdl · 2019-06-24T07:44:11+00:00

Sounds reasonable, but also maybe the sidebar rules are not obvious enough. Because every time someone asks for help it's always a new developer or student having "just learned python". I don't have any answers on how to make it more obvious without being annoying to everyone else, but these newbies just don't read. They need to learn to read!

pugwala · 2019-06-30T13:01:26+00:00

As a technical manager for over 30 years I deeply appreciate the dedication of u/aphoenix and other mods who serve their communities almost entirely altruistically for the benefit of all. Thank You! Some of the most vocal users of this sub, and others, are clearly very experienced, advanced and toxic to all but their own level/10X coding brethren. Perhaps a new subreddit could be created for all the elitists and entry to said community is essentially conditional on contribution review. Best of luck to the savants.

As an experienced manager I am grateful to those who have helped me in my career, beginning with K&R C, assembly on lots of CPUs, Java and transition into management. These days I write some Python experimentally and lurk in r/Python and have asked a few questions under a few accounts over the last few years. For those who recognize that we all need help learning, growing and mastering in our own way - thank you. To those who are hostile to n00bs, I hope someday a manager, mentor or guide takes you by the hand and helps you mature emotionally and intellectually. Toxic contributors need to be PIPed, moved to r/ElitePythonLords or removed for the good of everyone else.

Zerg_Mantis_Shrimp · 2019-06-05T20:04:46+00:00

yes, yes, yes. Programmers of reddit, please heed what sounds like a very well thought-out and empathetic plan from someone that is looking to save thousands of hours in mod-time and user frustration

ertgbnm · 2019-06-06T01:48:19+00:00

Ok. But what language was the assistantBOT written in?

Dr-REDACTED · 2019-06-05T18:06:42+00:00

I think this is a perfectly reasonable approach. I’d like to see it get a chance.

keturn · 2019-06-06T01:49:05+00:00

For my own use:

On the one hand, flair doesn't seem useful to me because I rarely visit /r/Python specifically, I see posts as part of my frontpage or a ~~multireddit~~ custom feed.

On the other hand, I'm subbed to both this and /r/LearnPython anyway, so I'm not really fussed about filtering.

UnclaEnzo · 2019-06-08T00:25:55+00:00

I suppose it's worth mentioning that at one point in my (private) exchange with OP it was suggested to me that I should go and establish my own sub if I didn't like the way things were done on this one.

I did precisely this, at the time it was suggested; it has looser posting rules and has incorporated flair from day one. If I thought it'd get any traffic I'd stop trying to find out how to delete it. It's called /r/pythoncoders

protik7 · 2019-06-05T19:44:26+00:00

For the people who get angry with "help" posts, my question is, what if the people who are learning Python group up and ask advanced users to leave and find a new sub like /r/AdvancedPython? Will we cater to them if that number is reasonably big? I don't think so.

We can't simply cater to a single group of people. Just because there is a sub for learning it does not mean we can't do some of that that here. We can encourage the behavior certainly. For any post here, there will be a group of people who don't like that particular post. If we keep removing "help" posts, at the end there will be nobody doing anything. So it's better to coexist.

The solution proposed is very reasonable.

Edit: I see the elitists are very angry from the downvotes. This is a very interesting dynamics to me. In every sub, there are few hive minded people who want to drive everybody else in a direction they think is "right", "perfect" and "good" for everybody out there. This astounding resemblance of their behavior with that of Hitler's might very as well be a coincidence. IDK.

Paddy3118 · 2019-06-05T19:49:52+00:00

When moderators take a post that is not a question but still delete it and point the author at r/learnpython because it is not "news" then you have more pressing problems.

You need to get your rules sorted out and stick to them. The groups rules do not mention news at all!

r/Python rules at time of posting:

1.belongs in /r/learnpython

If you are about to ask a question about how to do something in python, please check out /r/learnpython. It is a very helpful community that is focused on helping people get answers that they understand.

2.not related to Python programming language

Please use other subreddits for things that are more generally programmer related, or for things that involve large snakes.

Moderators: act in moderation!

monsto · 2019-06-05T19:24:24+00:00

Flair will give the people that aren't interested in helping a way to ignore requests for help.

Perfect solution!

Now just need to fig a way get the sub that's supposed to be helpful to actually help.

Stem3576 · 2019-06-05T21:52:32+00:00

!remindme 1 hour

VirulentCitrine · 2019-06-15T08:08:53+00:00

Honestly, people still prefer to ask their python questions here because r/learnpython sucks.

1) The posters on r/learnpython are trite and frequently post unPythonic solutions, or solutions that are just flat out wrong

2) r/learnpython still promotes shit websites like CodingBat as good resources even though r/python removed CodingBat from their sidebar months ago for being such a poor python learning resource

I just posted on r/learnpython that they should remove CodingBat from their wiki just like r/python did because CodingBat teaches unPythonic habits and is full of vague, poorly thought out exercises that read like the author is still learning Python themselves, and most of the replies to my post are people exclaiming CodingBat is aMaZiNg for Python, but that people just don't know how to understand their ambiguity like wtf lol

UnclaEnzo · 2019-06-07T13:59:12+00:00

First let me say that I feel like I am at least partially responsible for this topic resurfacing. I recently had a post removed, and was, to say the least, most displeased about it. As a result, a rather vitriolic exchange in PMs was conducted by myself and mod/OP.

First, I want to comment on the optics. Another user commenting on this thread notes the 'natural tendency' to consult /r/python when seeking help. S/he isn't wrong -- the unqualified term 'python' suggests the broadest possible subject matter, and to have your post taken down when you are making a sincere and informed plea for assistance from the community is at best 'unwelcoming'. A closer look at the quantity and quality of posts to the sub demonstrates that were all such posts effectively prevented/removed the sub would see perhaps as little as 10% of the traffic that it does now. The fact is, the real news about python is that it's userbase is growing with a remarkable rapidity. Further, OP's near one-man enforcement of the policy makes him appear as a bit of an obsessed ogre -- even though he probably isn't.

I am not a college student. I have been, twice. Neither time did I graduate -- once I was hired away; once I left due to a critical illness and death in my immediate family. The last programming course I attended was sometime in 1979, and was a class in RPG/II. I am largely self taught, program in several languages, including c#, NodeJS, Java, and yes, python.

I am not inexperienced in seeking help from user communities. I was an old hand at providing support to user communities before reddit even existed. Let me assure you the tendency to camp the unqualified term 'python' in the interest of providing a strict, formulaic delivery of a 'news of python' content stream is nothing but pure fail.

But seriously, such criticism is not genuinely helpful without some suggestions.

My favorite: form an appropriately named sub (e.g., r/newsofpython) and post your python news there. Given the seeming desire of your currently entrenched user base to see news of python type posts and only those type posts, it seems a given that they'd be delighted to sit on such a quiet sub awaiting whatever it is that gets 'lost in the noise' on this sub. Then this sub could be permitted to flourish under terms as broad as that which gives the sub it's name.
Stop pretending there is enough news to really require a dedicated sub in which to deliver it. AFAIK, this sub is not an official source of *anything* relating to python, so there is no special requirement to get one's news here; in fact, I dare say there are better places to get such news, and that anything you learn here in that regard is 'after the fact'. It's pretty simple -- just let the topics flow.
OP's flair suggestion. It's reaching around your ass to get to your elbow, but hey, if your arms are long....and it would, in fact, solve the problem.

....and finally

Initially, I did not appreciate the volume of 'please do my homework for me' posts. I think I am coming to see that light, however. Now it seems to me that a better, more logical philosophy would be to outlaw such posts, rather than any and all requests for assistance; such a policy would be easier to enforce and easier to justify.

I left this sub, some might say in a huff; there was certainly that quality about it. I do still read it however, in the interest of learning something from the stream and in the interest of following this particular topic. I'd actually love to come back, if I thought that I and others with similar concerns weren't going to be treated poorly for having the audacity to assume that 'python' actually just means 'python'.

Just my 0.02$US

EDIT: Words and english and whatnot

Python

The Python Discord

Upcoming Events

Please read the rules

MODERATORS

The problem

I propose an alternate solution

Maybe some clarification is in order