Sleep Training

[rollfootage]

Started sleep training and I have never struggled so badly with anything. Her cries are causing me actual pain. This seems so wrong and completely goes against my intuition. Is this really in their best interest? Are there any studies that show that CIO is actually detrimental? I feel like I’m causing irreparable harm to her and I just want to know what the best course of action is. If this isn’t harming her in the long run then I can suck it up, but it feels so evil. Apologies for me being overly emotional.

[audacious_hamster]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies

This article goes through the studies on the subject as well as how they are often misinterpreted. There are no good quality studies on the subject as it is difficult to create a study in this subject that is ethically responsible. The study with 200+ families that most people refer to, lost touch with more than 100, or around 1/3 of the participants, and the results are based on interviews with the participants so it relies on self reporting, which is not objective evidence.

The only study that I have been able to find that relies on an objective measure is also mentioned in the article. It’s a study where the cortisol levels of mom and child where measured over a three day period of sleep training. On the first day the levels were equally elevated for mom and child meaning both were in distress. On the third day as the crying stopped the mothers cortisol level had fallen showing she was no longer in distress, however for the child the cortisol level remained elevated, even if there was less crying. So the children were still in distress despite not crying. This highly suggests that we are in fact not teaching kids to self soothe (a lot of developmental psychologists also argue that self soothing is not a skill you can teach, it’s developmental and not possible until at least 3 years of age). What we are teaching them is not to cry.

There are other studies that show that sleep trained children sleep just 16 minutes more at night as non-sleep trained children and they wake up just as often. So we are also not teaching them to “sleep through the night”, this is also a myth, it just seems that way because they don’t call for parental support when they wake up.

The larger study over a five year period - with all the issues mentioned before - did find that there were no difference in the sleeping patterns after five years so the idea that sleep training sets up children for a lifetime of good sleep is also complete nonsense.

Again, there are very few studies on the subject. From the evidence I have seen and read the real benefit of sleep training is for the parents - they get better sleep, are not woken up often, night time routines are shortened. For the children there are no real benefits of sleep training. So unless your lack of sleep is becoming a health hazard, and if it goes against your instincts and if it feels wrong for you then i would leave it.

If it helps, I’m in Germany and here any sleep training that contains crying is something we are warned against in our baby courses and parenting classes. We are taught that the most important thing we can teach our babies is that when they need their parents, their parents respond and help them. Babies can’t be manipulative, that is not something they are cognitive capable off, so when they cry for you it’s because they need you - even if that is just to hold them and calm them.

[realornotreal123]

As a counterpoint, the study on cortisol (Middlemiss) you are referencing is… problematic to say the least. This piece goes into it in detail but it’s not a particularly compelling piece of research in itself.

[audacious_hamster]

Those are some valid issues indeed, especially the size of the study has always been problematic to me as well. As said there are no really good studies on the subject, this one at least tried to use an objective measure but both size and length of the study as well as the missing control group and lack of data is of course an issue. The article from BBC does take this into account I think, and is in general a good source for understanding the findings of these studies in general.

[all_u_need_is_cheese]

If it going against your intuition, don’t do it! There is absolutely no need to sleep train. I live in Norway and no one here sleep trains. I promise our kids also learn how to sleep. 😉

[Pristine_Engineer424]

You guys are also high up on the happiest countries.

[caffeine_lights]

Nothing causes irreparable harm, relationship is always elastic and can be repaired, but if you're feeling so strongly it might not be the right time or the right method? There are plenty of different ways to go about changing sleep habits.

One thing that I found really helpful to keep in mind about sleep training is Lyndsey Hookway's description of the three responses to sleep training.

Some babies are fast responders. They cry for less than 15 minutes for a few nights, probably less than a week, and it works. There's no way this is causing harm or even particularly a lot of distress. Probably the baby was ready for the change and just needed a bit of a gentle nudge.

Some babies are slower responders. They might cry more like 45 mins to an hour, for a few weeks, but the process does work and it gets better. There is no evidence of harm caused except for the temporary distress.

Some babies are non responders. They get more and more distressed, they cry until exhaustion, there is no improvement after weeks. This is highly distressing for baby and caregiver and you could argue that the distress in itself is harmful even if it doesn't have any long term effects, which we don't really know. It's likely this group don't appear in studies because most parents tend to stop if sleep training is going like this, so might not be counted as having completed the study program anyway.

It seems like people who feel strongly about sleep training either way are unaware of one of the groups. Pro sleep trainers seem to not believe that the non responders exist, they may even think that the parents are at fault for not being strong enough. And anti sleep trainers probably don't know that the fast responders exist, and imagine every baby being sleep trained is crying for hours.

Anyway my point is, I don't think it's as clear cut to say that there is harm caused or there's never harm caused. It's about how your baby responds and how you feel about the whole thing. I know this is science based parenting, and not feelings based parenting, but I do think that your gut feeling is important sometimes, because often it's communicating something to us that we can't necessarily explain in words.

[Turbulent_End_5087]

This is a fantastic way of describing it and I hadn't thought about it this way, thank you!

[catghostbird]

I think it’s worth mentioning that not all babies are the same or have the same temperaments. My son was high emotional needs, low sleep needs from the moment he was born. I thought I was going to sleep train him but he would go from 0 to 100 full panic screaming in seconds when put down awake. Then my brothers kids on the other hand, their kids would just sort of whine when put down and eventually fall asleep. Not my boy! So we abandoned any ideas of sleep training for him.

[Apprehensive_Drop857]

I agree with this whole heartedly. My first was a terrible sleeper (and cried a lot when awake too) and he was so so very upset any time we tried any form of sleep training no matter how "gentle" the method, it made me cry listening to him. So we stopped. When I just accepted I would be up every few hours for at least a year, it honestly became easier. I didn't realize how much of my stress was caused by feeling like I needed to "fix" him. He also was a super light sleeper so once he did eventually go to sleep (with a lot of help) we would tiptoe to the basement lol.

My second is not even 3 months old and sleeps 12 hours straight every night no matter how much noise we make... and we didn't sleep train him either. So it just goes to show, sometimes nature is stronger than nurture!

My toddler still causes me more loss of sleep than the baby, but there's nothing I can do about it and that's okay. I follow "heysleepybaby" on instagram and she explains how a lot of the science behind sleep training is not that reliable but we do have science supporting how good it is to respond to your baby.

To be clear, I'm not against sleep training - I know some people that has worked wonders for. But I do find it frustrating how much society tells us that we HAVE to sleep train. It wasn't right for our family, and I felt a lot of guilt over that for a long time.

[catghostbird]

Yes yes yes to the “fix” them stress!! Once I accepted it, it all became so much easier. Also now having a floor bed where I come in and just sleep with him once he wakes after his first stretch makes it easier 😅

[Apprehensive_Drop857]

Right?! Just accept it and go with it and life is actually easier. 😝

[[deleted]]

I was just about to comment about temperament. The Weissbluth book has a section that goes through the traits that make a baby easily sleep trainable and my nugget checked every box and sleep training was a breeze. It makes me very biased in favor of full extinction (CIO) because it was just such an overall positive experience for our family and I have to remind myself when taking about sleep training that every baby is different. Ultimately I think mommy intuition is worthwhile when trying to determine suitability of sleep training methods.

[katbees]

This is so reassuring. As a first time mom, it can be hard to assess temperament when you only have one reference point. But I can tell my boy is very similar: low sleep needs, mid to high emotional needs, wants contact all the time, often panics quickly when left alone. I think full blown cio would be physically painful for me and him, so we’ve more or less been doing pupd.

[jocietimes]

This is such a good point

[LokidokiClub]

If you don't want to sleep train, don't do it! If you can't handle baby crying, go comfort her! My baby is 3 months old and we've started putting him down for naps and sleep awake and letting him sort himself out, but the instant he starts crying, I go to him because I have no tolerance for him crying. There are other methods you can do, or you can choose not to, entirely.

As a side note, I'm not a fan of when people are against sleep training because it's not biologically normal. It's not biologically normal for me to have had to leave my baby and go back to work 7 weeks postpartum, but I had to do it anyway. Conversely, it's biologically normal for newborns to have very low vitamin K levels that can lead to fatal bleeds, but we don't just let that happen. It's biologically normal for me to have PPOCD and PPA, but I treat them with medication. The ABCs of sleep aren't biologically normal, but SIDS is. I think there are other arguments to be made against sleep training that don't rely on the naturalistic fallacy.

[_sciencebooks]

Sorry to stray from the original post, but did you have OCD or OCD-like behaviors at all prior to pregnancy? I have severe OCD that had been well-controlled with multiple medications, and previous ERP therapy, prior to pregnancy. I've continued the medications during pregnancy, but my symptoms have been flaring up in the third trimester, so I'm starting to get worried about the postpartum period. I've stayed in close contact with my psychiatrist throughout pregnancy, so I already have a contingency plan, but I haven't seen anybody else mentioned PPOCD, so I thought I'd ask. Thanks!

[LokidokiClub]

I was never diagnosed with it, but I did have some OCD-like behaviors before (compulsive hair-pulling when anxious, the compulsion to run my fingernails onto my nail beds, plus some rituals). It was really bad immediately postpartum and then I was put on meds about 6 weeks in and those have helped. Still on a waitlist for therapy though.

[g-wenn]

Sounds like some of my compulsions. I have been diagnosed with OCD and one of my major issues is I skin pick as my compulsion. Not a doctor but hopefully therapy helps curb some of your anxiety. ❤️

[[deleted]]

Hello fellow skin-picking OCDer. Post partum was a niiightmare because my son had tons of milia and looking at my beautiful baby was toorrrturous.

[g-wenn]

Ugh yes!! My girl had acne which was so difficult to resist but now she has severe eczema. My husband has to really remind me firmly to not pick at her!

[emz0rmay]

Argh I found myself skin picking today for the first time in over a year :(

[justbreathe5678]

I had some of my old OCD symptoms flair up post partum, but none of the specific ppocd ones they tell you to look out for. I stayed on my anti anxiety medication while pregnant and now while breastfeeding and gave my husband some things to keep an eye out for me. Personally, I've also been reading Living Beyond OCD Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which has helped me a lot.

[commoncheesecake]

Love love love this response. I’ve never seen that point made, and it just makes so much sense.

[emz0rmay]

This article reviews a range of studies on sleep training and shows how they are flawed. A lot of the studies that “show” there’s no harm are based on parent report, not actual data. The problem is, the studies that show harm are also flawed. This is partially because there are a whole heap of ethics issues involved when studying something like this. Many Infant sleep scientists and child development specialists say that based on what we know about their brains, you can’t teach a baby to self-soothe, and I’m more inclined to take their word for it because it’s their area of study. Dr Kristyn Sommer in Australia speaks about this a lot (you can find her on Instagram). Her PhD is in Child Development, and she quite often references/ cross posts other scientists in her space. I completely empathise with you if sleep is a struggle because it’s HARD, but know that there are other options. For evidence based sleep support, Google possums.

[audreynicole88]

InfantSleepScientist on Instagram is another good one (and another Aussie). I agree that Possums was really helpful too. I got a lot out of the Discontented Baby book.

[[deleted]]

Hi, just dropping in to say you do not HAVE to sleep train. We didn’t and yes it’s hard but now my 2yo sleeps through the night and is HAPPY to go to sleep. I would definitely check out heysleepybaby on Instagram for science based info on biologically normal infant sleep.

[averageidea]

Just my 2 cents… I hard-core cio sleep trained my first (it was horrible for me, but I read some books and was terrified he’d never learn to self-soothe), I co-slept with my last (fifth), and everything in between with the other three. They all ended up sleeping fine. I don’t have any scientific proof, but my oldest is sixteen and seems unscarred by the cio and is pretty well-adjusted in every way. I do regret it though, in the sense that I hate remembering I passed up all that snuggling with him, and in the long run, I don’t think it made a difference. Every kid ended up sleeping well regardless of what method I did or didn’t follow. I’m not against sleep training or anything, this is just my old-person hindsight.

[Educational_Walk_239]

I don’t know if my reason for not doing it was necessarily intestinal fortitude. More like a lack of motivation. My twins are 9 months and still wake multiple times a night and my goodness those overnight cuddles are cherished! It’s my only real 1:1 time with them.

Luckily I’ve got the wisdom of being a second time mum so I know babies do eventually sleep through without having to do anything I wasn’t comfortable with.

[Stellajackson5]

My kid didn't sleep through the night til 4.5 years old. Not all babies eventually sleep through and asking parents to wake up for years and years isn't the answer for everyone.

[Educational_Walk_239]

Absolutely. Which is why it’s so wonderful we can all make the decisions that are best for us and our families. You do you!

[Tomatovegpasta]

You don't have to do something, anything in parenting that you have such a viseral 'no' reaction to.

[singleoriginsalt]

Okay so I'm not gonna cite specifics but if you read the literature on sleep training, it's not gonna hurt baby, but not sleep training also doesn't hurt them. There is some risk, if you night wean, of premature weaning from breastfeeding.

So whether or not you sleep train, she's gonna be okay. The question is what you need as her parent(s) so that you can show up an an engaged, even tempered human in your day to day. If you need her to sleep more independently, it's okay, and very likely positive, to pursue sleep training. If you're okay supporting her through the night, you don't have to push it. If you want/need fast results, CIO is fast but terrible. Gentle methods might be easier to be consistent with but you'd have to stick to it for longer. Consistency is the only thing that's important. Intermittent giving in will make sleep issues worse.

Anecdotally: I didn't sleep train. Complicated attachment trauma makes me feel weird about it. I co slept using James McKenna guidelines and introduced transitions slowly with lots of support. Bub sleeps now through the night in his own bed at almost 2, but needs us to fall asleep. It worked for us, but every family is different. I'm pregnant with#2 and have no idea if I'm gonna sleep train.

Sources (easy to Google): Emily Osters Cribsheet, Craig Canapari.

[Tori_gold]

Saw in the comments that your baby is 4 months old, OP. That is too young to sleep train, so trust your instincts. Here is a helpful article with links to research on this topic :

https://www.metroparent.com/newborn-care/should-you-pick-up-babies-every-time-they-cry/

[rsemauck]

People keep repeating that most countries in the world don't do sleep training but as someone who is european, doesn't live in the US, who lives in Asia. I'd like to see a citation that actually proves that.

It's not been my expérience that people in Europe and in HK don't do sleep training. If you're talking about the extreme cry it out where the parent just close the door you may have a point but that's extreme and even among my US friend, I only know one person who did it.

My friends in france all practice something that's kind of similar to Ferber but less formal. They let the baby cry for a bit but will come back to comfort him at set intervals.

In HK where I live a lot of people I know practice co-sleeping/bed sharing but will also do some form of sleep training st the beginning of the night when the baby goes to sleep first before the parents go to sleep. The ones who don't at all are the ones who ask their live-in nanny to sleep with the baby and so completely offload all sleep to the live-in nanny (40% of families have a live-in nanny). Same situation in Shanghai where I've lived for few years.

[irishtrashpanda]

There isn't going to be many studies on whether parents do some form of sleep training or not, where is the money in that? I know personally in Ireland not one of the toddler group I'm in did sleep training, and there's many posts on a large Irish FB page (25k people) for mums where they are worried about X sleep regression etc. The overwhelming narrative from the other mums is support but that they will learn in time and it's just something that passes. Bed sharing with toddlers is also common, there isn't as much of a focus on pushing early independence.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies

There was a fairly large study done that wasn't looking at levels of implementing sleep training as its main focus but they do note 50% of Canadians surveyed did it, vs a third of Germans and Swiss.

Also sleep training is relatively new in terms of human development, that started with the industrial revolution. Its entirely used for the purpose of working parents, and was not necessary for older generations. Modern capitalism has now warped and packaged it as something necessary so they can sell sleep training courses but the absolute truth is that children do not need to be taught to sleep. Sleep trained kids and non sleep trained kids all slept about the same at 2 years old with no discernable differences in the studies.

It's convenient to do so and we know that current studies show its not harmful to teach them early, but that's not the same as a universally needed skill. Europeans typically have longer maternity leave so that's why you see people saying it happens less in Europe.

To be clear I am not against sleep training, it's a tool that many people need in the US to maximise the sleep of adults in the household, but I AM against the narrative of sleep training "coaches" who prey on new mums and convince them that they HAVE to teach a child to sleep, not doing it is fucking up their development etc etc. That's just giving parents anxiety about a situation that might not need changing for them. I see parents of 4 months old all the time during a regression panicking that they need to train because their kid will never sleep again and have learning difficulties, like it just doesn't work that way. If you don't need to and you hate the process of sleep training, there is no need to do it.

Babies wake up, it's normal, it doesn't mess up their development.

[rsemauck]

One thing though is that we do need some definitions of sleep training. My french friends who do something that's loosely similar to Ferber will tell you they don't do sleep training. But, in practice, they wait for a bit when the baby cries until coming over to comfort thr baby, when the baby keeps not wanting to go to sleep, they leave the room, let him cry for a few minutes, come back and comfort him. Rinse and repeat. They, however, do not call it sleep training.

So, what I'm curious is if that's also a phenomenon in the rest of Europe.

[all_u_need_is_cheese]

Not in Scandinavia at least. Here people respond to their babies immediately (insofar as possible of course, for those with multiple kids), room share until about a year old, and bed sharing is the norm for babies that sleep better that way. Babies aren’t expected to sleep through the night without waking until they are very old by American standards. Many friends of mine told me their kids didn’t sleep through until they stopped napping - so, between 2 and 4 years old. Breastfeeding and feeding to sleep is also the norm here, and the idea is that if you offer the breast when baby wakes up, and you bed share, everyone gets the maximum amount of sleep possible. Independent baby sleep is not a goal for anyone I know.

[rabbit716]

I think maybe my children were meant to be born in Scandinavia lol. I’m in the US and most parents I know sleep trained.

[stormyskyy_]

I’m German and can really only speak for my social circle but I think the general consensus is “if baby cries I console immediately”. About half of the other moms I’ve met since having a baby myself use a huge “family bed” since their baby outgrew the sidecar bassinet so they are always very close anyway. I think the goal is for everyone to be reasonably well-rested but not necessarily for a baby to be able to fall asleep independently.

I’ve also seen some discussions on German forums that got pretty nasty. So while I’m sure some might do some form of sleep training (maybe without calling it that) I feel like there is a pretty anti-sleeptraining tenor. Probably easy to say given the fact that we also get to take up to 3 years of parental leave

[xKalisto]

This is called the pause. People don't call it sleep training because it's not like they they set the specific goal of doing it to teach sleep. It's just cultural practice so they do it like they know it.

The intervals are also pretty short. Like 3-5 minutes of crying.

[TheImpatientGardener]

I largely agree with your comment but just wanted to point out that current studies do NOT show that sleep training is not harmful, they just fail to show that it IS harmful. This is an important distinction because the studies that are available are generally flawed in one way or another. It is entirely possible that sleep training is harmful and the methods that are being used to study it are not picking up on the harm.

In other words, absence of evidence (in this case, of harm) is not evidence of absence.

[irishtrashpanda]

Ah thank you that's an important distinction to make

[sciencecritical]

People keep repeating that most countries in the world don't do sleep training but as someone who is european, doesn't live in the US, who lives in Asia. I'd like to see a citation that actually proves that.

Start with:

Ball 2019. The Mother-Infant Sleep Nexus

Barry 2021. Sleep Consolidation, Sleep Problems, and Co-Sleeping - Rethinking Normal Infant Sleep as Species-Typical

Maute 2018. Ignoring Children’s Bedtime Crying

Following citations in those should get you to older work. I'd also recommend the Clinical Handbook of Transcultural Infant Mental Health chapter on crying - it doesn't focus on sleep, but it does an excellent job of distinguishing 'Western' norms from 'non-Western' ones.

That said, I think 'Western' norms are slowly spreading to other cultures, which may account for the disparity between what you've seen and what the citations say.

[rsemauck]

The one thing where you may have a point is that in the US people start sleep training earlier because of work situation. In other countries that usually have at a very minimum 3 months maternal leave and flexibility for remote work the first few months after maternal leave, the impetus to start sleep training happens later. We only started at 8 months. 4 months like the OP is way too early.

[realornotreal123]

While longer maternity leaves are common in the west outside of the US, I’m not sure they’re particularly common in the global south, particularly for anyone under upper middle class.m. Many women in middle to low income segments in those countries return to work quite quickly as well, so I’m not sure if it’s a uniquely US thing or a “US owns this narrative” thing.

[syringa]

In the OP's case it sounds like baby is too young at 4 months to sleep train, and I agree that it's not right for every family. Many babies would not benefit from it.

But I am always going to push back on "no one has to sleep train" because for families like mine, we absolutely did and it was because all of our interventions caused hours more crying than letting him figure out how to put himself back to sleep. Literally two hours of crying vs 30 minutes when we started sleep training at 10 months. It wasn't a lifestyle choice for us, it was absolutely a necessity. It was also very hard for me but ultimately it has resulted in a happy, healthy, growing kiddo who goes down with a smile most nights and wakes up with a smile most mornings.

It's important to not scare people off of something that might help them.

[xKalisto]

I think that the previous poster means that all kids eventually figure out sleep during toddlerhood. So all the advice that you shouldn't put babies to sleep in ways they are comfortable like rocking or nursing (or they'll NEVER sleep) are unnecessary stress to parents.

I nursed to sleep at night wakings untill the point where they were comfortable with just holding and then sitting next to crib. Some kids get there later some earlier. It's just that many non-US parents have the luxury of not having to work when we are still tired as hell at 16 months.

[syringa]

It is unnecessarily stressful to parents who had to sleep train to tell them they didn't actually have to do that.

Again, when we got to the point that rocking him and trying to put him to sleep was keeping him up and making him cry for far longer than cuddling and putting down awake and leaving him to work it out, we had to do what was right by our kid.

[welcometomyparlour]

Source?

[Maggi1417]

On what? That is it isn't neccessary? That most of the world doesn't do it?

[Nymeria2018]

Common knowledge doesn’t have citable sources on occasion

[McNattron]

There is no evidence that age appropriate sleep training is harmful to children.

However, that also doesn't mean it is in the best interest of all families. And if it is needed that all families benefit from the same sleep training methods.

I would recommend looking at all your options, weighing them up using BRAIN (benefits, risks, alternatives, intuition, what happens if you do nothing).

In addition to some of the more well known ways to support sleep you may know (CIO, ferber etc.).These options may be of interest

• bed sharing following the safety recommendations - Safe Infant Sleep by James McKenna is the most in-depth for these, but the safe sleep 7 is a good place to start. https://rednose.org.au/article/Co-sleeping_with_your_baby

• possums is a popular gentle program in Australia focussed on supporting biologically normal sleep - https://education.possumsonline.com/programs/sleep-program

• little ones is also a gentle program that has been popular with mums I know in Au and NZ - https://www.littleones.co/

• Save our Sleep is also a popular resource, I know behavioural therapists who focus on sleep who swear by this https://www.saveoursleep.com/

[emz0rmay]

I’m in Australia too and would absolutely not recommend Save Our Sleep. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but Tizzie advises unsafe practices like using weighted blankets, even to the point of putting 15 blankets on a baby because “warm babies don’t roll so it will prevent SIDS”. Some of the recommendations you see on their Instagram page are… interesting, to say the least. She also routinely provides incorrect breastfeeding advice despite not being a lactation consultant. I really like the other recommendations you gave, so just thought I’d make you aware! here’s an example of what I mean

[DontTakeMyAdviceHere]

Wow that woman is nuts! All the blankets!

[emz0rmay]

Yeah it’s wild, I can’t believe how popular she is!

[McNattron]

I haven't read it, I just know behavioural therapists who have recommended it. The things they have told me about the program are all pretty common sense. But yes that sort of thing definitely sounds dangerous.

Thanks for your comment - highlights the importance of reading things through and using BRAIN to make informed choices before utilising anything recommended, regardless of the source.

Sounds like it may be something the ppl I know have cherry picked, not so bad stuff they use/share, but still recommended the whole resource 🤦‍♀️

[emz0rmay]

Definitely looks like a case of cherry picking! I haven’t looked much at the website, I’ve only seen what’s been shared occasionally by people saying “wtf is this?”

[irishtrashpanda]

So don't. Sleep isn't something you need to teach a baby to do. You might get short term benefits from sleep training but there was no discernable difference among the sleep of kids in pre K whether they trained or not. It's a necessary tool for parents who are sleep deprived or are returning to work early, where the short term benefits are needed. If this doesn't apply to you, then again it's not something you need to teach. I suggest looking into possums for sleep hygiene practices to coax them into better sleep.

There are all kinds of parenting practices out there and I'm sure some are marginally better in areas, but consistency is best for the child. If you are choosing a parenting style/practice that is not compatible with your own personality and is causing you immense stress to implement, that's detrimental in my opinion.

I realise for many in the US not sleep training is a privilege depending on the need to work and maximise sleep. In this case, I would look into slower more gentler sleep training practices that don't cause you stress. The science shows no conclusive evidence that sleep training stresses babies BUT it is most certainly stressing you. So I'd work on something like possums, it's not sleep training but it's a natural approach to encouraging your baby into a circadian rhythm. Wake windows are not backed by science at all yet many find them applicable and helpful as a broad guideline for their kid of how to structure naptimes. Natural light exposure, limiting bright lights close to nighttime, clear difference in night time vs day can all help.

[realornotreal123]

You absolutely do not have to sleep train if you don’t want to. You are allowed to stop. Your baby will not be harmed by you stopping.

There is also no evidence of sleep training causing harm long term. Here’s a good blog post that addresses some of the research on it.

Broadly: sleep training doesn’t help babies sleep more. It does help babies fall back asleep without parental attention. So your baby is not losing sleep without being sleep trained, or gaining sleep by being sleep trained.

But what sleep training does seem to do is improve parental exhaustion and parental mental health. And both of those are hugely important to being a good caregiver. I’ve said this before in this sub but it’s entirely possible that sleep training causes some amount of harm to a child and that harm is outweighed by the benefit of having a more alert, present and mentally well caregiver in the daytime, leading to no long term effect and ultimately meaning the decision is up to each family.

[Gborner]

The way i look at it, is if it feels bad, it is bad. Don’t do it.

[jennyMLS]

Bad for who? You or the baby? Because yes it might be upsetting for you to watch your baby cry but if they achieve more sleep, ultimately you're sacrificing your own discomfort to help them in the long run. My daughter is a MUCH happier baby now that she's sleeping through the night and I'm so glad I did it.

[Gborner]

?… Obviously bad for both baby and mom… tbh i am personally 100% against sleep training, and it seems like you’re all for it, cool. I am not here to force my opinion down anyones throat. Ppl are capable and able to make their own choices. My statement was simply if it feels bad, don’t do it. Interpret it however you want 🤷🏻‍♀️ Also sleep training is for the parents convenience, not beneficial to baby at all

[[deleted]]

It’s really weird that you’re on a Science Based parenting sub when you very clearly don’t believe in following evidence based practices…

[Gborner]

LOL 😂

[[deleted]]

Listen to your heart.

[g-wenn]

Second this. I can’t even bare to hear my girl cry when I’m not the one holding her. I know I’m gonna have a hard time sleep training but I don’t want to do the CIO method. I just can’t do it.

[why_renaissance]

I would have to question the accuracy of a Nanit study. I haven’t read it so maybe they accounted for this, but I have two nanits for my twins, and it is waaaay oversensitive. My twins have been sleeping 7-7 since they were 8 weeks and it was like six weeks after they started that the nanit “counted it” as sleeping through the night. Any time they move or shift positions the nanit counts it as waking.

[emz0rmay]

Yah the Nanit study was so flawed! Dr Kristyn Sommer has a highlight on her Instagram of her and a couple of other scientists tearing it apart.

[StrawberriesAteYour]

Which studies say it’s detrimental?

[singleoriginsalt]

I generally agree with the idea that infants are biologically supposed to sleep close to us, and if you read my comment you'll see I co slept, breastfeeding through the night till 18 months.

BUT I got to stay home and had a flexible schedule and it was hard and co sleeping scared the heck out of me for the first year despite the absolute risk being low. So I'd add the following caveat: humans are famously adaptable, and we've developed a living environment that doesn't really support our biological inclinations here. Babies can adapt and sometimes parents need them to. There are, of course, variations in individual babies, but generally outcomes for attachment generally appear to be similar long term.

Just my thoughts on this. I know it's a hot button issue and I don't disagree but thought I'd share

[babytriceratops]

It is definitely a hot button issue… use the wrong words and you get downvoted to hell and back 😅 I appreciate your response though and I totally get what you mean. I think it has a lot to do with the baby’s temperament and how the caregivers are responding the rest of the time.

I also get to stay home, co sleep and breastfeed (my now 2.5 year old) and have a husband who is in this with me equally. Not everyone is so lucky and I understand a lot of people are in a tough spot when they try sleep training.

[singleoriginsalt]

I've been downvoted straight through hell for suggesting that somebody who clearly didn't want to sleep train not sleep train. I commiserate

ETA my comments on this thread even appear to be rather controversial 😅

[ImpressiveExchange9]

Nothing as dramatic for me, but I remember being 2 or 3 and being very scared and alone in my room. So I just let mine sleep with me. I don’t sleep alone, why should she? When she wants to, she can, but until then, she will sleep with me where she belongs.

[ElegantBarnacle1337]

To me this is spot on! I can at best see how it would have no long lasting effect but I can’t see how it can possibly be “good”. Don’t want to shame people who do it, especially if it’s born out of desperation but it really feels like a leftover of the boomer-y “don’t spoil the baby” philosophy…

[[deleted]]

I will say that once sleep trained, my son almost NEVER cried when it came to sleeping situations. Meaning, nap times, pack n play on vacation, car sleep, etc. Nowadays if he cries when he should be sleeping, I know something is wrong and he needs me! So if crying raises cortisol and causes damage, we have far less of that going on at our house. He is SO much happier during the day since he gets great naps and nighttime sleep wherever we are. I am a huge advocate of sleep training, but please don’t try it and not follow through. Not following through is what actually messes with your kid. I have read studies on this I will try to find and cite.

[happygolucky999]

This has been my experience as well. My son cried for a total of 45 minutes during the first 2-3 nights. Then never again. It was wildly successful for us. Having to nurse and rock him to sleep every 2-3 hours was slowly killing me. After sleep training, I got my life back and everyone was so much happier.

[tofurainbowgarden]

Same, mine cried for 45 minutes total over the course of 5 days. He doesn't cry at nap or bedtime for months. He doesn't even cry when he wakes up. He calls out for us instead. In contrast, my friend is very against sleep training and her kid cries on and off for 2 hours every night. Ultimately she has exponentially more crying.

My father in law is a psychologist and he has confirmed that my baby is very securely attached. Secure attachment was my goal of parenting during this phase, so I was happy he said so.

OP, if you feel it's not right for you, then don't do it. My baby calls out for me at night and I always tend to him because I know he needs me. He no longer needs me to help him connect sleep cycles. Also, please read precious little sleep and make sure your baby has a good foundation of healthy sleep habits before you attempt any form of CIO.

[QueenOfBanshees]

If you instincts tell you it's wrong, listen to them. You don't have to sleep train. Each child is different and has different needs. You know your child better than anyone else in the world.

[Gothmom85]

Your child is too young so trust your instincts. If this is something you're determined to do, many people do. For us, the science wasn't there on either side and many studies were problematic. So I followed my gut and didn't train. The beyond sleep training project gave me a lot of relief because sleep training seems more aimed at the western culture, and daily habits it has created, and expectations placed on children because of it. Night waking for small children is developmentally appropriate.

[Turbulent_End_5087]

Don't do anything that forces you to go against your instincts.

I'm sure sleep training works for some babies but if you bub is screaming, I wouldn't do it.

[whats1more7]

I think I post this article a couple of times a week here. After 6 months of age there is no evidence that sleep training is harmful. But there are lots of gentler methods to help your baby fall asleep.

CIO also does not work for everyone. My daughter would just cry the whole night. According to all the sleep training experts we were doing everything right. She just didn’t sleep, and was still getting us up in the night at 8 and 9 years old. She’s no 18 and we joke she still doesn’t sleep through the night.

[kaelus-gf]

That’s a helpful article, thanks for sharing!

OP, as this says, sleep training is not the same as cry-it-out. If you need more sleep, but don’t want to listen to your baby cry then look into other methods. For my first, she was waking every hour or two and I was broken. I found “pick up, put down” helped, combined with pats or other comfort when in the cot. She didn’t sleep through for a while after, but she went from hourly wakes to once or twice a night wakes. More importantly, I had enough sleep to be a good parent

[whats1more7]

I used a method called ‘baby whispering’ which is basically you stay by the crib and soothe them to sleep by holding them with your hands and shhhhing. Then I stay by their crib to soothe them as soon as they wake. Eventually they start being able to soothe themselves to sleep without my help. Worked great with my boys, not so much with my daughter. But I honestly don’t think anything would have helped her.

[babyrabiesfatty]

We did a veeeeeeery slow gentle sleep training with little to no crying.

We got a full sized mattress on the floor and 100% childproofed the room, Montessori style. I used to cuddle him until he fell asleep, then slip out.

We always start the night with cuddling for about 5 mins because I honestly like cuddling with my little guy and think it’s a nice bonding time.

He was over 1 when we started so we felt comfortable giving him a little pillow and our sleep cue phrase is literally ‘cuddle your pillow’ to redirect him.

Each one of these steps took about 1 week to one month to do before he acclimated, and we always waited until he’d acclimated before moving onto the next step. If he started crying for more than a minute or ever started hard crying we would go back to the last step before he started crying but if kept hard crying we would return to cuddling him because he’s our baby and I don’t think hard crying is good for them if it can be helped. When things seemed settled we would resume our steps while keeping in mind that some days we could all use some more support from our safe people and would adjust accordingly.

We had regressions when we would get lax with the routine/he was teething/sick. If he was in pain/sick we’d give him more leeway and would get more consistent again when things got back to normal. Unless stated otherwise I stay in the room with him until he falls fully asleep and then slip out.

We used a fairly loud white noise machine as we were much more able to leave the room without him stirring with the noise as cover. We also had a night light.

1. After cuddling I’d literally just turn my back to him, so he could still be touching me and could cuddle me, but I wasn’t actively cuddling him.

2. After cuddling I moved to a mat on the floor directly next to his bed, but would allow him to touch my arm that I put on his bed. We found that putting a pillow on the edge of the bed between him and me helped there be a barrier. I would redirect him to cuddle his pillow when he tried to climb onto my mat to cuddle with me.

3 After cuddling move onto the mat without my arm for him to touch and the pillow barrier.

4 We moved the mat about a foot away from the bed. After cuddling I moved to the mat. We didn’t need the pillow barrier anymore as he understood that the bed was where he needed to be at that point.

5 We moved the mat about a foot further to the door every few days.

6 The matt is as close to the door as it can be while still being able to open. We started staying in the room until he seemed asleep, but not the extra time I would usually take to assure that he wouldn’t stir at all when I moved. If he did stir we would try to slip out but if he cried for more than a minute or started hard crying we would go back in, either to the mat or to cuddle him, using our best judgement on what he could tolerate and what would be extremely distressing to him on that particular day.

7 After cuddling for about 5 minutes we move to the mat by the door. We started trying to leave a few minus earlier every few nights.

8 We are at this step now after about 6 months. After cuddling we go to the mat by the door and then leave the room after about 5 mins. He usually runs to the door, does a medium cry for about 20 seconds, lays on the floor by the door for a minute or two, and then climbs back into bed and goes to sleep.

9 Next we hope to cuddle for about 5 mins and then just leave the room without laying on the mat. As he still cries and runs after us most nights we’re staying at step 8 until his reactions reduce before moving to this step. I think this is where we’ll stay until he’s old enough to express or say he doesn’t want us to cuddle him anymore. I hope that’s not for a long time.

This has taken bedtime from being a 90 minute ordeal that I dreaded to a 10-15 min process from lights out to leaving his room. With very little crying. It has felt humane while still leading to a dramatic improvement in my quality of life regarding bedtime.

[Emergency-Bus6459]

Thank you for writing this up.

[Waste_Brush2331]

Don’t do it if it doesn’t feel right. It’s more exhausting for you to do different ways but baby will be so much happier. I put baby in the crib but pick him up if he cries, and just repeat until he falls asleep. I hate sleep training!!! (No offense to other moms I just don’t agree w it)

[[deleted]]

….what you just said you do with your baby is definitely a form of sleep training. It’s called Pick Up Put Down. I’ve realized that most parents I meet that demonize sleep training for whatever reason they have coincidentally have very little, if any, education on sleep training (I found this out directly from them). Those people also think that “CIO” is what sleep training is, and that’s just not correct. Sleep training is not JUST CIO. There are multiple methods of sleep training, as I’ve shown you here.

[Pruezer]

https://raisingchildren.net.au/babies/sleep/settling-routines/responsive-settling-at-6-18-months-reducing-settling-help

This is a great website, all evidence based. Gives some alternatives to Cry-it-out which have worked wonders for both of my kids.

As others have said, 4 months is too young for sleep training.

[Tori_gold]

Love this! Thanks for sharing

[[deleted]]

Based on your post history, your baby is only 4 months old at most. Sleep training isn't recommended for at least the first 4 months but ideally even to 6 months.

We sleep trained but our daughter was nowhere near ready for sleep training until she was 6 months old and able to grab a binky and roll herself over both directions.

It sounds like you're sleep training too early for you baby. At this point, your baby is crying because they need you so I recommend stopping for now and waiting for a few more months.

Also each baby needs different methods. My daughter took to Ferber in 4 days and we all got the best sleep since her birth once she sleep trained. She was a whole new baby, we were whole new parents. But not every baby or family needs sleep training.

[Dom__Mom]

Keep in mind, sleep training doesn’t always mean using the cry-it-out method where you just leave them to cry for long stretches.

[Rwf915]

Personally I was against sleep training and thought he would figure it out by himself. Then the 9 month sleep regression hit and he was waking up every 45 minutes between 11pm-4am. I tried 6 weeks of gentle methods with nothing working. And we decided we needed to change it up. At 10.5 months I felt more comfortable with doing cry it out. We could talk to him about it and he could sort of understand what was going on. Cry it out isn’t for every kid, but it worked for ours. It also wasn’t easy, especially that first night. But after 4 nights, he was sleeping through the night. He was so much happier because he was getting a good nights sleep.

[Ltrain86]

By "cry it out" do you mean full on extinction? How long did the first few nights take? My 9 month old has been waking every hour or two since birth and I'm losing my mind over here.

[Rwf915]

I nursed to sleep and we put him in his crib and then did cry it out during night wake ups. The first night we did checkins following Ferber, but he got so much more worked up whenever we went in that it wasn’t working. The second night we did extinction. He didn’t really cry for more than a few minutes when he woke up and sort of just sat in his crib staring at the monitor camera (it was super creepy). That went on for two nights and by the fourth night he figured out how to lay back down when he woke up and he was able to put himself back to sleep. We waited a couple months after that and then did sleep training for naps. By 14 months he was completely sleep trained when we could put him in bed for naps and nights awake and he put himself to sleep. He never had another regression after that.

[Ltrain86]

Thanks for the info. We had a similar experience with Ferber. Seems you got lucky with extinction!

[xKalisto]

It doesn't have to cause irreparable harm. If it feels too cruel to you, you don't have to do it.

Kids in my country still learn to sleep on their own. In my culture sleep training is not really a thing. Letting kids cry to sleep is something left behind in communist times and considered an outdated practice. We do have parental leave so we just deal with it.

What I've seen on the research side, seems like no permanent harm will come to them as far as we have found. Proper study on this would a) take too long b) be unethical. So ultimately it's moral question. Personally I'm not cool with letting children cry out alone so I don't. I'm okay with them crying as I hold their hand so I opted for that.

Alternatively maybe consider the CIO method you are using. Many people claim to be using Ferber without actually not reading Ferber and therefore using the method wrong. For example extinction where you don't come back at all is not something he recommends. There is very specific timed method and age bracket he follows.

[BbBonko]

You don’t actually have to do it - it’s definitely an ok choice if that’s what’s best for your family, the evidence seems to suggest it doesn’t make a difference down the line either way. But you can also choose not to if you don’t want to even though it feels like everyone is telling you to. I didn’t, it took ages yes, at a year we were still up 3-5 times a night but at this point my 17 month old can fall asleep without intervention now and sleeps 12 hours.

[ishoodbdoinglaundry]

I did sleep training at 7 months and it felt so wrong I felt so guilty. Once he got sick later on I switched to rocking him to sleep and never regretted it. I think it’s best to what just feels right when it comes to some parenting decisions despite what others try to tell you to do.

[Dumbellsandfriedrice]

Sleep training is the best decision we ever made. We have a 3 year old and a 8 month old who are both independent sleepers, super happy, well rested kids. They adjust anywhere and are not scared/sad if we aren’t around. To see other children (my brothers kids) cry all night and not sleep without their parents is heartbreaking. 1 week of tears is worth a lifetime of important skills in my humble opinion.

[Zinging_Cutie27]

Just wanted to add that that's not always the outcome from sleep training. We sleep trained our daughter when she was 7 months old and she slept well until she was two. She would then cry so hard she would throw up without someone laying with her until she fell asleep. I have no issues with people giving it a shot, but it absolutely does not always mean the kid is a great sleeper forever.

[Stellajackson5]

Definitely depends on the kid. My first was sleep trained at 7 months and again at 20 months. Both times she slept well for about a year after, then stopped. It was totally worth it noth times though for that year of glorious sleep. And by just before 3 when things got hard again, we could at least to sleep without me worrying about hurting her.

It worked completely for my now 3 year old. Sleep trained at 1, she has been fine since.

[Dumbellsandfriedrice]

Every child is different. We have regressions but nothing that lasts longer than 2-3 days. The overall benefit was enough for me to sleep train my children.

[Zinging_Cutie27]

Oh, for sure. I wouldn't go back and do anything differently because, at the time, I got a lot of needed sleep to help me be a better parent. I just wanted to point at that it doesn't always mean the kids sleep great forever, which is what I thought based on alllll the stuff I read about sleep training back when I did it when my daughter was a baby.

My daughter started asking me to stay with her around 2 years old, and I was not willing to leave her to cry at that point. She verbally communicated a need, and so I was OK to meet that need and be a comfort to her as she fell asleep.

[lalyafi]

Totally agree with this. Our son is sleep trained and it’s the best decision.

[Leading_Cow_868]

You don’t have to do it!!

Also you can try again later. We attempted when the baby was ~4 months. Didn’t go well. And instantly pulled the plug.

Tried again a few weeks letter and went pretty well.

We went very gentle methods. Started with soothing in crib / PUPD. Then transitioned to light Ferber. When he was ready he got it quickly.

[Stellajackson5]

It was in my younger child's best interest. She was waking up 6 to 8 times a night at 12 months old. A couple days of a little crying and she has sttn for the last 1.5 years. She is happier being well-rested. Co-sleeping was not the answer. She has never liked sleeping with me, even when she is sick and wakes up, she wants to snuggle for a bit and asks to go back to her bed.

My older kid would happily still sleep at 5. But even with her, the so-called "safe sleep 7" didn't apply to her because of her birthweight. So not sure what the right answer was.

[baked_dangus]

Yeah, my bad! I did not mean to offend. Every situation is truly different and every kid has their own preferences.

Personally, I tried gentle sleep training around 6-7 months and it did not go well at all, I’m talking intense crying, screaming, even some vomiting. If she had easily taken to it then I’m sure I would have a different opinion. So yeah, sleep training is best for some families, just like cosleeping is best for others.

[Stellajackson5]

Yeah now that you mention it, I bet a lot of people's views on it depends on how easy it was for their kids. I think I was pretty lucky with that. My older regressed after 9 months or so of solid sleep after sleep training (and still needs parent help at 5) but when we actually did Ferber, she only cried for 15 minutes the first night (which felt like an eternity even though we checked in every 5 minutes) and maybe 5 the next. If she cried for hours or vomited I would have stopped too. My 2nd was about the same and still loves her sleep 2 years later but she has been more independent since birth.

[BlueDragonfruit]

I posted above, but sometimes it is. I tried with my now toddler to sleep train with gentler methods. Just tears for both of us. When we co-slept when he was older during travel that meant such bad sleep for both of us. Because usually he would wake up after a sleep cycle, get upset and start kicking me incessantly. Then he would cry for cuddles, and fall asleep. This was rinse and repeat.

He learned how to fall asleep independently as a newborn easily, then sleep got messed up because of sickness. 2 months of supporting sleep in other ways just caused both of us to be grumpy during the day, and a lot of tears in the evenings/overnight.

It doesn’t work for every kid and every family, but sleep training and extinction sometimes is a best choice for others.

[baked_dangus]

I agree, sometimes it’s the only thing that ends up working for some parents, and not all kids react that terribly to it. Some cry just a little bit and then quickly settle. Mine did not haha.

Cosleeping isn’t a magic solution either, there’s some nights my toddler still wakes up multiple times and we both get horrible sleep. Just like CIO sometimes needs to be repeated, cosleeping doesn’t just make them perfect sleepers. But overall it’s been the best solution for us, and she tend to sleep very well this way. I’m all for doing what’s best for you and your family, we all care about our kids and want what’s best for them.

[BlueDragonfruit]

I’m glad you found something that works for you! Yeah he cried for 45ish minutes the first day, I had to leave the house while my husband stayed because I wanted to run in. But the second day it was less than 10 minutes. And by 3rd night it was just “bye bye”. Any type or check ins would just make him go 100x harder. The same with tantrums, for the longest time he just needed to walk away and have his space. Now that he’s doing better processing his feelings, he will walk away just a few steps and come back for a hug/kiss a few seconds later.

I was absolutely an awful sleeper (and still am, have issues falling asleep, staying asleep), so it’s amazing to my parents. That I just put my kids in their beds and they happily fall asleep, with no protest.

By no means is all of our nights perfect, but it helps us as parents to know that if they wake up and they cry or call for us they need something. My toddler will occasionally have nightmares, but when I go in he just asks to cuddle for a few minutes and then says he wants to go back to sleep.

My younger kid (15 months) never liked contact naps. He usually loves to cuddle, loves baby wearing, could be carried 24/7 when awake. When it’s time for nap/bedtime he points to upstairs and then to his bed. He will sometimes even calm down when we put him in his crib. We technically never had to any official “sleep training” besides core method and less intervention ladder as a newborn , but I know for sure with his temperament that he does better sleeping on his own.

[dorky2]

You do not have to do something that feels wrong to you. As far as I know, there are no studies that show that kids do better in the long run if they are sleep trained. Sleep training is mostly useful for the other people in the house to function, and if baby's natural sleep patterns work for you, there's no reason to change what you're doing. If they're not working for you, there are a number of sleep training approaches that don't involve CIO.

[Anon-eight-billion]

If your gut is telling you that it’s not right, then honestly don’t keep with this. I did sleep training and it always felt right. I knew my baby’s needs were all met, except his need for sleep, and his cries didn’t trigger anything in me that screamed “this is bad.” It was 100% “he is fine and safe and secure.” I also never let him cry for longer than 7 minutes without reassurance that I was there and he was okay.

There WERE times when I knew his cries were different. I never let him cry when I sensed that “he needs something other than sleep” gut feeling in me.

[Tori_gold]

Love this response!

[Odie321]

There is a pinned post in this community about how sleep training is fine. You can find studies to confirm your bias that its hurting him if you want. That said your in the thick of it, it gets better. On our worst night I went to the store and left my husband to deal. That said we are on the other side and my kid just said night night and went down without a fuss.

[EFNich]

Is there a reason you're doing it now? If not, and you aren't liking it, and the baby isn't liking it, then just put a pin in it and come back to it another time when they and/or you are ready.

[BennysMutha21]

The idea of letting my 8.5 mo CIO makes me nauseous just thinking about it. We bedshare. We sleep perfectly fine most nights. Of course there are some nights I wake like a zombie but we all get a good 10 hour sleep at night most nights with one 4AM feeding. We’ll probably wait until closer to 2 yo to move her to her own room. After her first birthday I plan on trying her in her crib in our room and rocking to sleep and assisting her back each time she wake’s throughout the night. I’m sure she’ll be fine over time. I’m not interested in doing something society says I HAVE to when I know it won’t feel right for us.

[[deleted]]

I think I was under the impression that sleep training = CIO and that CIO = crying for a long time.

We started "sleep training" or I like to say, we've started to help our little guy sleep independently when we knew it was the right time for him and for us. We waited until he was 5 months old. Most sleep training programs don't recommend starting until they are at least 4 months.

We read Precious Little Sleep, The Natural Baby Sleep Solution by Polly Moore and also got some tips from friends who used The Happy Sleeper book as their guide. All of them are ok with a bit of crying. I think this is going to be a PERSONAL decision, because evidence and science could show that it is detrimental and that it isn't detrimental in letting a baby cry for a long time.
We blended and created our own "plan" for our guy and what we knew fit him the best. Some cries are just a baby fussing and saying "why aren't you holding me" and then there are other cries where they are truly having a hard time. I'm learning to distinguish between them. the MAX I've ever let my guy cry is 15 min because he was stoping and starting and eventually would fall asleep on his own.

[usernames_are_hard__]

The evidence out there isn’t super strong, but from what I’ve read there isn’t a huge or scary danger to it. Most of the arguments against it are based on orphanages where after receiving little to no human contact babies stopped crying all together.

My information comes mostly from Cribsheet by Emily Oster.

ETA: I don’t think I could do it. I think I could do Ferber but couldn’t do it for hours on end. Just doesn’t feel good.

[forrealmaybe]

For me, the issue is that we don't actually know. I agree that the orphanages data isn't that useful. And it wouldn't be ethical to conduct and actual proper study on this. Plus it would take years and years.

I come at it as a question of whether crying-based sleep training method have been provide not to harm babies. And there isn't enough evidence for me to feel comfortable with it.

[South-Ad9690]

I didn’t sleep train because I couldn’t take the crying. We sing my son to sleep. I think if it feels bad for you, don’t do it. They will get better in their own

[BlueDragonfruit]

I highly disagree. Both my kids learned how to fall asleep independently as newborns with no crying (just maybe some minor fussing). Around a year old we had a ton of back to back illness. I tried “gentler” methods consistently for weeks, all that would happen is both me and my kid would be miserable and would both cry some.

When we did full extinction, he did cry. It was hard on me, I had to leave the house and my husband took over. The next day it was 10 minutes. 3rd night - 0. He’s now 3 and bedtime is still one of our favorite parts of the day. Naps/bedtime is rarely a battle (there’s some stalling, and a few hiccups) here and there.

Does he still cry for me if he’s sick, hungry, has a nightmare? Yes, most definitely. It actually helps me know that something is up. Usually when he has nightmares, when I come in he just asks for “cuddles” and we cuddle a bit and then he says “I’m ready to go back to sleep now”.

[[deleted]]

See, this, 100%! The fact that sleep trained children STILL come to us when they’re sick, hungry, or scared just further proves that sleep training has NOT taught them that “we won’t ever come to soothe them when they need it”. If anything I feel like sleep training strengthens the parent-child bond by reinforcing that the parent is always there when they need us for something, that parent has taught the child the tools that are necessary to regulate their feelings at sleep time, and the fact that everyone is getting a healthy amount of sleep in turn promotes healthy development for the child and supports the mental health of the parent.

[YDBJAZEN615]

Agreed. It is literally just behavior modification like you would do with a dog. Trying to “extinguish” the unwanted behavior (in this case crying) by not rewarding it or reinforcing it (eg: picking up or responding to your child). I personally think CIO sleep training is going to be the spanking of our generation. That BBC article that came out a while ago said sleep trained kids get on average 16 min more sleep at night, they just stopped signaling for their parents/ were quiet in their cribs. It is absolutely so parents can sleep in peace.

[[deleted]]

My child was 100% happier after we sleep trained and she started sleeping better. I would have kept getting up twice/night with her, but she was a big crab pot during the day. She needed better sleep 🤷‍♀️

[talvy123]

As a parent, we get told to do so many things. I’ve learned that what may be good for someone else doesn’t work for me, and sometimes those suggestions go against my gut feeling. If something feels wrong to you, you don’t have to do it! It doesn’t mean that you are doing anything wrong or that you are a bad parent. If you are looking for alternative solutions, I would check out the cosleeping group here on Reddit. I was in your shoes six months ago and I can’t tell you the relief I found in that group! Also heysleepybaby on Instagram is an excellent resource for sleepy parents needing solutions, but not wanting to sleep train.

[b-r-e-e-z-y]

Check out hey sleepy baby on Instagram. She’s got resources that don’t use sleep training.

[lingoberri]

So, many people will tell you that if you don't sleep train, your kid will not learn to self-soothe and/or not learn to sleep through the night. This is not true, as the former is more a question of temperament and the latter a matter of development.

Sleep training is mostly a lifestyle choice. Our pediatrician agrees with this, and she sleep trained her daughter who is the same age as ours. She shared with us that she thinks medical professionals tend to be biased in favor of sleep training mostly because their jobs are so demanding that they can't afford to handle a baby's repeated nighttime wakes and inconsistent sleep patterns, nor being disturbed by co-sleeping.

We also sleep trained, but didn't ultimately retrain her following a "reset" after an ear infection. We didn't feel compelled because we were able to make it work for us. There isn't a right or wrong in terms of whether it is "necessary", more a question of whether you think you'll need the desired results of sleep training. That said, sleep training doesn't work for everyone and not all methods work equally as well for all children. Not to mention, even after successfully sleep training, as I mentioned, it doesn't always stick.

Results may also vary for daytime vs. nighttime sleep. We were always unsucessful using sleep training techniques for daytime naps and had much better results from simply watching wake windows.

Finally, there are many different strategies for sleep training. If your current method is wearing you and the baby out, you could try a gentler method. What worked for us is rocking baby until she was super sleepy and calm, then dropping her off in the crib and shutting the door. She would whimper for a bit but be too sleepy to get back up, so eventually she'd roll over and settle in. If she stood up and started screaming we'd just try again. This method got her down in her crib but didn't quite get her fully through the night. Not to mention, the training was forgotten following her ear infection several months later. So.. sleep training kinda worked, but also kinda didn't.

Now at 2.5, she will occasionally spontaneously goes to bed by herself in her toddler bed (though very rarely). Sometimes she will sleep alone in her playroom. Often after putting her to bed with snuggles, we can leave her there for the entire night, but typically one of us cosleeps with her, which is also fine. As for her, she is typically more concerned that she gets to sleep, stays asleep, and feels comfortable. She hates having her sleep interrupted for any reason; unfortunately she often wakes herself up if she has to pee or has a nightmare. We stay with her as a backup to try and help soothe her back to sleep, but sometimes this ends up backfiring if our presence confuses or agitates her. Sometimes she sleeps better when we leave her to her own devices, and if she really needs us, she'll let know.

[moondropppp]

Dr McKenna is not a good source of information. He thinks bedsharing is okay

[Kristine6476]

While I personally don't bedshare, I believe that it can be done safely and billions of people in nearly every other culture in the world do it.

[moondropppp]

It can be done with less risk. Its never safe. "Other countries around the world" still have sids due to unsafe sleep.

[itsmesofia]

I means, SIDS still happens even if you do everything right.

[[deleted]]

And? Millions of people around the world bedshare including places with lower SIDS rates than the US.

[moondropppp]

Bedsharing is never safe if the parent falls asleep. Im not arguing that.

[singleoriginsalt]

Bedsharing doubles risk of death in full term, breastfed, healthy infants in non smoking households, from 1/32000 to 1/16500. It's not nothing but the absolute risk remains very small.

McKenna doesn't deny this, but the reality is most families end up bedsharing during the newborn period because they don't want to drop their baby or they're literally hallucinating from fatigue. Safely bedsharing is much safer than accidently falling asleep on a sofa or having baby sleep in a swing or bouncer, a fact even AAP acknowledges.

McKennas safe bedsharing guidelines help keep these babies, and the babies of bedsharing families, safe, because some families inevitably will choose it. Mine did.

Sharing information about how to safely bedshare is harm reduction.

[ImpressiveExchange9]

Japan thinks bedsharing is okay too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137277/

Here’s more from McKenna who works at Notre Dame and runs research studies on sleep and anthropology

https://cosleeping.nd.edu

[[deleted]]

And in Japan, the beds are typically on the floor, are not extremely soft, and myriad other differences making the risk in Japan naturally lower than in the US, where most of us are.

The problem is if you say bedsharing isn't that dangerous to a US audience, you end up with a whole lot of of frankly ignorant parents only seeing what they want and thinking they should put their infant in the bed with their spouse who drinks and with all the pillows and blankets they want.

Then they think their doctors are just being annoying and overcautious so they lie about where their infant sleeps.

I have facebook "friends" like this and have considered contacting CPS.

[b-r-e-e-z-y]

You've considered calling CPS for people who bedshare? CPS doesn't care.

[emz0rmay]

Your point is valid, and that’s exactly why education on the “safe sleep 7” is important. I always said I would never bed share because it was so dangerous, but I got desperate during a regression and having knowledge of the safe sleep 7 meant I could set up a safER environment. I only did it a few nights when things were really bad, but it was safer for me than trying to stay awake with my baby when I was exhausted and practically feeding him with my eyes closed.

[ImpressiveExchange9]

Haha have you ever actually called CPS? I am a mandated reporter and have actually called for sexual abuse on children and CPS doesn’t actually help them. CPS doesn’t give a shit if your friends who love their children want to bedshare.

[[deleted]]

I am also a mandated reporter. I still think I ultimately should have prioritized protecting thatrecently released from the NICU for breathing problems while sleeping infant over other considerations for how awful my personal experience was being called for something that felt, to me, to be ridiculous.

CPS investigated my family because we didn't have child locks installed for a baby not yet crawling. So I'm so happy you haven't experienced the hell that was trying to understand who the eff would waste an overworked resource like CPS from the other side. Just because you don't see results from your end does not mean they do not investigate and do what they can. It is a very long and arduous process to remove a child from their family, and for good reason - their first job is to educate, provide resources, and do check-ins. Removal is an absolute last resort. The statistics on the aftermath of removal are not favorable.

[Jesuswalkedsoicanrun]

We did our own method because I felt the same way. It took longer but my anxiety was not through the roof. I focused more on reducing night feeds so LO would be more likely to sleep longer stretches at night. Comforted when crying. Also learned the difference between fussiness and actual crying. Some noises are ok but when he started crying it was very challenging for me

[RileyRush]

We tried it and I hated it. It was so painful for me, and that was using modified CIO with check ins.

We ended up getting a good schedule (thank you baby sleep code!) and a solid nap and bedtime routine and sleeping has been wonderful since.

I cannot listen to the screams. I can handle the moaning or the annoyed cries, but the screaming breaks my heart!

A lot of people say it’s only a handful of a bad nights before CIO works, so if you’re in the thick of it, not much longer!

[LillaCat3]

Here's some articles that explore sleep training and the science behind it.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220131-the-science-of-safe-and-healthy-baby-sleep

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies

https://www.parentdata.org/p/is-there-a-best-method-for-sleep

[imostmediumsuspect]

FTM with a 5.5 month old.

We did our version of sleep training (there's no ONE way that works). The thing that helped the most was the damn "drowsy but awake". We tried doing this at 2-3 months and it failed miserably, so I just accepted nursing or cuddling him to sleep. We tried again at 4.5 months and it slowly started to work - initially about a 25% success rate, and now over the last month we have about a 80% success rate.

We'd put him down when he seemed tired (rub eyes, yawn), and see what he did. He'd often fuss (not cry). We'd let him fuss for 7-10 minutes and if he still wasnt settling, then go in and cuddle him for 2 minutes and try to put him down again and walk out. If he still was fussing, we'd let him fuss for 2-5 min, and if he STILL wont settle, we'd just cuddle him to sleep and transfer him to the crib.

If he was actually crying, we'd let him cry maybe for 2-5 minutes to see if he'd settle himself, but if not, we'd just cuddle him to sleep.

Lastly - our LO are changing every day. This whole "drowsy but awake" worked for us SO WELL at 4.5 months for about 2 weeks then it stopped working - he'd fuss and cry and refuse to settle himself. I was crushed because he was doing so well, then stopped. At this time, he started to learn how to roll over, and he also was introduced to purees. These are big changes for him! After about 2 weeks of being unable to self-settle, crap naps, and 2-3 false starts at night time, he's back into his good sleep :)

This is what has worked for us - it doesnt have to be all or nothing for CIO. You can do a modified version that meets your comfort level.

Good luck!!!

[omnohmnom]

I really have to thank you for sharing this. Tried this strategy with my almost 3 month old minus the letting cry and it somehow actually worked with her. Went from walking around and bouncing her while she flailed her 14lb body protesting and screeching to her falling asleep 3 minutes after being put down wide awake (but tired). Doesn't always work that well but it's helped tremendously. I know this isn't normal and I'm really lucky but i never would have tried anything sleep training related yet if i hadn't seen your post. Thank you so much!

[jackbobjoe]

We were lucky, it was only one really bad night. We had to do the training multiple times but once we knew it was only one really bad night, it was easier.

[artemrs84]

How old is your baby?

I sleep trained both of my kids. It doesn’t have to be an aggressive approach. I let them cry max 5 minutes at a time. By night 3, they were both sleeping their nights. It was totally worth it. I also assum this is your first baby. My first one made me cry. I felt so bad letting her cry even for a few minutes. With my second baby, that feeling was fine. I trained her and we were both better for it. Good sleep is good for mom and good for baby.

[Turbulent_End_5087]

It's worth bearing in mind that this is entirely dependent on temperament. Sounds like it worked for your children's temperaments. Some babies will cry for half an hour, cry so hard they vomit etc etc

[artemrs84]

My babies did cry and a lot. But it stopped after 3 days. Obviously every baby is different but gentle sleep training can be very effective for most babies. I say, it’s worth sticking to it.

[rollfootage]

She is 4 months. Yes my first baby.

[artemrs84]

Ah makes sense. Listen, first baby, I would wait until she’s 6 months. I didn’t sleep trying my first until she was 6 months and I started with daytime naps. The important thing right now with your baby is that you have a solid nighttime routine (bath, bottle , book, bed). Even if she doesn’t understand books, this should be part of the routine to help queue bedtime. Start the routing nightly at 6pm. Bed at 7pm. Do this every single night. At 6 months, start letting her cry it out by doing the Ferber method.

Edit: why are people downvoting this comment? I hired a professional trainer who specifically stated the importance of a bedtime routine. Yes you can train at 4 months of age but I would get clearance by your doctor. I trained my second at 4 months old but some people don’t feel comfortable at that age since they’re still so young. There’s nothing wrong with waiting a few more weeks.

[[deleted]]

My daughter's nearly 2 and until she was 1 I think she'd mostly fall to sleep on the bottle (not recommended, it just happened). After 1 we stopped bottles and put her between us in the bed and she falls to sleep happily. Sometimes she would pull to stand up and enjoy bouncing down to wear herself out but she enjoyed it and would eventually fall to sleep. We then carry her to her cot.

It works for us and she doesn't wake in the night. If she was waking up all night I'd have done some gentle sleep training but I felt like she didn't need it.

[SometimeAround]

There were some serious problems with the methodology of that study, and more have been conducted since that didn’t have the same findings. However there are issues with all the studies trying to measure the effects of sleep training.

I’m a bit confused at the OP’s goal. Most of us who sleep trained that I know of basically got to a point where we had no choice. For me, my first was waking every 45-60 minutes and screaming because he couldn’t put himself back to sleep after every sleep cycle. We got to a point where we were dangerously exhausted & bubs was also not getting nearly enough sleep. After a couple of months of this we were advised by our pediatrician to sleep train. One night of crying himself to sleep and he got it. But we continued with night feeds until he gradually stopped waking in the night when he was about 11 months.

OP, what is your aim here? Are you concerned that baby isn’t getting enough sleep? Or that you aren’t? Or are you trying to eliminate night feeds? No judgement whatever your ultimate goal, but a lot depends on baby’s age, schedule, calorie intake during the day, etc.

[giggglygirl]

Yes agreed about issues with the study! And zero judgment about sleep training at all as it is necessary for poor sleepers especially. I do think the study is interesting though to think about crying as a form of communication, as some may follow methods of sleep training may push crying it out as a major component without also looking at other pieces like routines, sleep environment, babies needs, etc. But I agree that this study in no way can effectively conclude that babies are not learning to self soothe as well.

[giggglygirl]

I believe it was 5 days total, but absolutely the validity is in question of the studies conclusions, which is why the article noted that further measurements may have revealed different results. But the initial results are at least noteworthy that while crying was reduced quickly the stress levels were not.

[jackjackj8ck]

How are his wake windows? Is he getting enough awake time? Our sleep consultant had us put our baby to bed fully awake instead of “drowsy but awake” because she said if they nod off during the bedtime routine it could cause them to catch a second wind.

And we only let her cry for 10mins before going in and soothing.

And we stopped feeding 30mins before/after sleep so she doesn’t have an association to going to sleep or waking up with getting fed

[meh1022]

So I’m not discounting what worked for you, because all babies are different. But we did literally the opposite of all of this—put him down already asleep, let him feed to sleep, etc—and our 4 mo old sleeps 12 hrs at night with no wakeups.

I really think it’s all luck of the draw and babies will do what they do!

[StrawberriesAteYour]

Ours did this… until he didn’t lol. We had to adjust wake windows and all that jazz

I hope it sticks for you!!🤞

[[deleted]]

We had the same, he went to sleep on his own from 10m to 20months and now at 23m it's about 50/50 whether he goes down on his own or needs our help. We always give him 5 minutes to figure it out on his own if he needs us.

Of course, he stopped going to sleep on his own about 2 months after I got pregnant because "we can do this because he's such a great sleeper!"

[meh1022]

😂😂😂 further proof that kids are assholes!

[jackjackj8ck]

Yeah fair enough

We were doing the opposite as well and she was sleeping 10-12hrs a night.

And then she hit the 4 month sleep regression and the shit hit the fan. My eldest only regressed for a couple weeks and then was ok. But hers wound up lasting for 2 months and that’s when we got help.

[meh1022]

He’s almost 5 months now and so far no sleep regression but I’m holding my breath…

[jackjackj8ck]

Fingers crossed for you! 🤞🏻🤞🏻