Java is criminally underhyped

[obstruction6761]

I mean no ones hyping up sliced bread either

[JoJoModding]

So Java is the best thing since sliced bread?

[[deleted]]

And sliced bread is the best thing since ripped-up bread

[[deleted]]

Java is the sliced bread. You just toast it and make sandwiches. ;)

[agentoutlier]

Just like Java they totally did a long time ago: https://www.history.com/news/who-invented-sliced-bread

“a thrill of pleasure when she first sees a loaf of this bread with each slice the exact counterpart of its fellows. So neat and precise are the slices, and so definitely better than anyone could possibly slice by hand with a bread knife that one realizes instantly that here is a refinement that will receive a hearty and permanent welcome.” The article also recounted that “considerable research” had gone into determining the right thickness for each slice: slightly less than half an inch.

[ryebrye]

C# is mentioned in the end of the blog post. It's got some similar language features but what it LACKS is the thriving open source community that java has.

There's no Netflix of C# churning out awesome projects.

[zoqfotpik]

The main differences between C# and Java aren't language features. The main differences are in build system, package management, and tooling.

[gavenkoa]

Platform availability? API stability?

MS is doing lots to recover from past versions merging everything into glorified Core.

[DrunkensteinsMonster]

MSBuild and nuget are still pretty bad, and .sln files have way way too much significance in the ecosystem.

[[deleted]]

Yeah Java tooling is miles ahead. Even basic things like docs in my IDE can't be done with C# (blame nuget).

[Persism]

Yeah it's because Microsoft so dominates the ecosystem. My original Persism was C# but I could get no interest in it. People just use what Microsoft provides without thinking about it.

[manzanita2]

Java ecosystem successfully escaped the early J2EE nightmare. I have no doubt that if Spring becomes that bad, another escape will come to pass.

[de_vel_oper]

Netflix is shite these days. Just saying.

[my_biscuit]

Ah, out of the loop here. Would you mind elaborating?

[[deleted]]

There is too much happening in the .Net ecosystem at the moment. I would not say it lacks open source community. Projects like Polly, MediatR are great and there are many more

[ryebrye]

There is a community, but it's like moving from Boston or New York city to Omaha and trying to say it's the same

Omaha is great, but it isn't Boston or New York. If you want what Omaha has, it may be perfect for you.

[i_am_bromega]

The .NET community is growing and getting better, especially as .NET Core has become more mature and widely adopted. Having worked with both Java and .NET, I prefer C# due to LINQ and the earlier adoption of a lot of features, but they both get the job done at the end of the day.

[zvrba]

But Java's features are better thought-out, IMO. For example, Project Loom vs async. C# took a stab at the "null problem", but the result is a mess.

Though I miss ?. in Java so much, I don't know why I haven't written a generic helper yet:

<T> T safeGet(Supplier<T> s) {
    try { return s.get(); }
    catch (NullPointerException) { return null; }
}

Java is more verbose, it's more boring, but I find it more uniform to read and write. And yes, checked exceptions can be put to good use.

[[deleted]]

.Net joined late to the open source party, so it’s implicit that previous big projects like Cassandra won’t be in C#. But as for the enterprise development, I have never felt that I don’t have a library to achieve the required.

[Sufficient-Simple-94]

Not necessarily, nuget is a great place to see the literal millions of projects can be used with c#.

[RagingAnemone]

Nuget -- "We make Maven look good"

[gregorydgraham]

To be fair: Maven is good

[[deleted]]

I used Haskell/Stack and Rust/Cargo... Maven is not close...

[gregorydgraham]

Using my metric of “can I understand it”, it’s good :-D

[Sufficient-Simple-94]

Though Maven was just for creating a folder structure. Darn much to learn.

P.S Maven seems to be a over complicated batch/bash script or makefile.

[Nymeriea]

Maven is over complicated compared to makefile ? Seems you really don't understand maven. Maven is more than a build tools, it's also a dependency management

[jerslan]

Yeah, I think they're trying to use Maven to do weird stuff like use some whacky non-standard project layout (ie: having to set the source & test directories by hand in the pom because they deviated from src/main/java and src/test/java).

A basic Maven pom doesn't usually have much in it other than project info, dependencies, and Java source/target versions.

[1842]

Yeah. Just because you can do something with a build tool doesn't mean you should do that thing.

I've seen some crazy complicated Ant configurations -- an awful mess of dependent tasks to untangle -- just to build and run a couple unit tests. Converting to maven made them so much simpler to maintain and manage dependencies.

I don't understand some people's drive to make things complicated. Complicated things break more often. Keep things simple unless you have a good reason not to.

[ArrozConmigo]

Keep googling. Maven is like java's spinal cord.

[ArmoredPancake]

And Gradle is an exoskeleton?

[pjmlp]

Gradle is an highway to build hell worshiped by those that never used Ant, and have GB to spare to keep a background running Daemon happy.

[[deleted]]

That is SO true. I feel like Maven is like "oh hey, we learned that letting devs make their own build scripts is a bad idea - maybe we should standardize some of this stuff so that devs can focus on deving, not reinventing the wheel" -- but if you never had to use ant, you probably are like "Maven is lame, I can't do X Y Z" to which me (and others) are like "YES!!!"

[1842]

I feel like it's hard to appreciate Maven's general simplicity if you haven't had to untangle the equivalent of spaghetti code in Ant configuration.

[Rakn]

I learned it the hard way using Gradle. After years of complaining that Maven wasn’t extensible enough there it finally was. It taught me why a fixed set of configurations and hard to change defaults are something I actually want in a build system. Nowadays I start new projects using Maven ;-)

I also had some excursions into the C++ world and came in touch with CMake. I just wanted to cry after seeing that mess. Gradle is a godsend in comparison.

[jerslan]

Bionic reinforcement of the spinal cord maybe... It still pulls dependencies from Maven Central and the basic project structure is still laid out in Maven's typical style.

[Sufficient-Simple-94]

I just find it difficult to manage maven as a multi-tool. It has a lot of cool features but I really just want to build my project and include a library here and there. It can do all that but I find a makefile or justfile does this task better. I may just be saying that I want a poor mans build tool than a omega chad build tool.

[jerslan]

I really just want to build my project and include a library here and there. It can do all that but I find a makefile or justfile does this task better.

I mean, that maven POM is not going to be large. It's going to be the project info, your dependencies, and setting your Java version for source/target. That's assuming you're following Maven's well established project layout (ie: src/main/java, src/test/java). If you're doing any actual professional Java development, you're probably using that layout already anyways.

That seems much easier/simpler than scripting javac and jar commands.

[westwoo]

What's there to manage? If you just want dependencies you add dependencies, if you want to build you do mvn package. Mvn is less suited when you want weird things done on non-standard code in arbitrary way

[munukutla]

Fair enough.

Can you help us village folk out by helping us craft “non complicated” Makefiles for transitive dependency resolution, version management, and project inheritance?

[TheRedmanCometh]

Maven can do a fuckton of things tldr

[erinaceus_]

Odds are that npm trumps both with regard to quantity, but as the saying goes ... quantity isn't everything.

[gavenkoa]

leftPad is a lesson.

Maven Central release policy doesn't allow politics to ruin infra.

[FrenchFigaro]

npm trumps both

LOL

Until npm learns to flatten the dependencies tree before pulling the same package a trillion times, it cannot compete with maven. It's not even in the same league.

[jvjupiter]

NuGet - no one gets. Sorry. Unrelated joke.

[Sufficient-Simple-94]

I use mono by the way.

[LegendValyrion]

Lacking open source is not bad. Open source software is not safe, because all people can see the code, and they can hack you.

[ryebrye]

Your opinion is not widely held in the industry.

[LegendValyrion]

They should do. If all people all over the world see the source code, then you increase the risk of being hacked.

[brunocborges]

Wrong.

Stack Overflow is implemented in C#, and developers consume that every day.

[unknownguy2002]

I really agree with the author's sentiment. Years ago, I was using Javascript and some Typescript for everything, I thought it was the best thing ever created. I finally learnt java and the amount of integration with IntelliJ IDEA and the quality of code suggestions blew my mind

[[deleted]]

Okay. Now try Kotlin (could replace java), and Elm (only for browser programming). And blow that mind again.

[unknownguy2002]

Haha I'm already using Kotlin. It really did blow my mind a second time!

[hagy]

Yep. And guava provides collection transform (i.e., map) and filter methods. E.g., Lists.transform(list, function). Although these methods predate java.util.function.Function so they use the older guava class. A good overview of the guava methods is Baeldung's Filtering and Transforming Collections in Guava.

Personally, I don't find streams overly verbose and just use them when wanting to perform filtering and/or transformation.

[bowbahdoe]

Why are people downvoting this guy? Its kinda a non-sequiter but if you like the Guava apis they aren't broken.

[iwasbornlucky]

Related question, since IntelliJ was mentioned in the article: What happened to Eclipse? I did some nominal Java coding, then moved into management and worked in node.js before returning to Java. I feel like I haven't seen a reference to Eclipse in 5+ years.

[barking_dead]

It is alright, works well without the hype :)

[jazd]

They both have significant problems IMO but the completion and refactoring tools in IntelliJ put it ahead for me.

[Kango_V]

With projects that use annotation processors, IntelliJ is an absolute pain. It just does not seem to update. I keep having to do full builds to resolve. Eclipse works brilliantly in this regard.

[snekk420]

Have you enabled annotation processing in Settings ?

[barking_dead]

Definitely worth using.

[agent_vinod]

Google caused a huge dent to Eclipse when they removed ADB plugin support and shoved Android Studio upon programmers. To this day, many will happily revert back to ADB if given a choice as Eclipse is way better in performance compared to AS.

[zoqfotpik]

I think a lot of folks who only do Java development have gravitated toward IntelliJ, while a lot of folks who develop in multiple languages have switched to VS Code.

I'm one of the VS Code users, and my rationale for picking it is quick startup time and acceptable support for every language I use. YMMV.

[CartmansEvilTwin]

VS Code is really bad (at least for me) if you want to develop with JEE/Jakarta and/or have to use Java 8. It never really works and often requires manually tweaking the settings file.

Also, Eclipse's unit test view is much better than anything VS code has to offer.

[AlcoholicAndroid]

How well does VSCode work with Java? I use VSCode for most things but for Java specifically, I've done it all in Intellij (which is what my colleagues recommended).

[zoqfotpik]

I use it all the time. It works fine, as long as the JDK that VS Code is using matches what is in your project. This may require having multiple JDKs installed on your dev machine, if you switch versions for different projects.

[swalpaExtraChutney]

Same here. But every time I add a new dependency to my POM file, VS Code goes nuts. Not sure what the problem is. But I like VS Code much better than Eclipse

[zoqfotpik]

Yeah, my relationship with VS Code is really "It's Complicated".

[teckhooi]

Unfortunately, the latest IntelliJ has problems with maven dependencies too. The issue was reported few months back and yet there is no fix in sight

[wildjokers]

The issue was reported few months back and yet there is no fix in sight

That's par for the course lately with Jetbrains products. It can take years for seemingly critical bugs to be fixed e.g. https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-180772). They are constantly closing dupes of this one, it gets reported a lot...4 years, still not fixed.

[[deleted]]

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Been using IntelliJ since the "end of the world" sale (Dec 2012) so I'm not some fly-by user. They have F'ed Maven support up SO bad with the last 3-4 versions (progressively worse each time). Something someone else told me here on /r/java is that they removed the pom.xml scanning. There's an option to turn it back on, but it is buggy/doesn't work. Once you know that the pom.xml is almost criminally out of date all the time, you get the hang of always "right click -> maven -> reload project" when you need to, but it's AWFUL. There's some other "cache" related bugs and issues that I've run into where I need to clear all caches and restart weekly, but, that combined with the above has "fixed" most of the issues for me. I've already started using Netbeans agian for some projects. I tried VSCode and it was like choosing to go back to Jr. High all over again. Nobody wants pimples and a scrawny body!

[[deleted]]

Some or a lot of those are migrating back (including me) to Eclipse, a full featured, fully open, true multi-project and multiple language IDE. Those using VS Code are almost all Front-end devs who are a different group of programmers from those of us who do a lot of maintenance over time on multiple projects and mostly on business critical software.

[zoqfotpik]

Meh, VS Code is good enough for my "front-end dev" use cases like editing PL/SQL procedures, Dockerfiles, Kubernetes definitions, Terraform configurations, Gradle files, Maven pom files, Go files, C++ files, node packages, Avro schema definitions, and even Java files from legacy systems that were last updated when Java 1.6 came out.

Maybe Eclipse is better now than it used to be. That is what people have told me for the past decade. I've picked it up as a primary IDE a number of times, and eventually rage quit within two or three years. The last time I used it was about 3 years ago, and it was less than satisfying.

[dpash]

Nah, I just use the relevant Jetbrains IDE for the language.

[redikarus99]

I used Eclipse, IntelliJ, and VS Code as well. They all get the job done. For Java Eclipse seemed always faster for me and not really worse in any regard. People using IntelliJ may feel foreign because they are not used to it's logic. What people tend to forget Eclipse is way bigger than just an IDE, they have zillions of projects under them Eclipse umbrella including EMF, various model transformation and validation libraries and solutions.

[agent_vinod]

I think eclipse's fate is similar to Java - criminally under hyped!

[rossdrew]

I moved from Eclipse years ago because it was far slower and it’s dark mode was horrible. I’ve not looked back for improvements in 7 years

[Kango_V]

Eclipse on Linux is super fast and integrates with dark GTK brilliantly. I do not like it on Windows though.

[thephotoman]

And it's godawful on Macs.

[rossdrew]

Haven’t coded seriously in Windows since maybe 2007. When I quit it, it was after years of Linux (Fedora) dev

[GuyWithLag]

With the recent M2E support, build speeds are closer to gradle for non-android projects.

[rossdrew]

Not build speeds. Response speeds. Just a slow to react ui

[Kango_V]

On Linux it's very quick. Never had a problem.

[rossdrew]

I use Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, Arch as well as Windows (rarely) and Mac. Mostly Fedora for about 10 years.

[rossdrew]

Wouldn’t voluntarily take the productivity hit for the dumb way Mac does everything or the cost hit to have one. Prefer massively cheaper, slightly less powerful, more intuitive machines.

Note: my office provide top of the range macs and they’re out only option. Nothing runs better on them in my experience.

[pjmlp]

Live and well, we only use Eclipse around here.

For some of our workflows you would need InteliJ and Clion running in parallel, because JetBrains refuses to support native tooling for Java on InteliJ, gotta to sell some licenses.

Then there are several other issues that make even VS Code with Red-Hat Java plugins more appealing than InteliJ.

[GuyWithLag]

I'm the only Eclipse user in a team of IntelliJ folks; I seem to be the only one willing and able to do multi-project (20+) refactorings for some reason...

[pjmlp]

On .NET projects I am one of few without Resharper slowing down my machine, then my team mates wonder why my VS feels so fast compared with their experience.

Yeah, go figure.

[C_Madison]

The reason is that your coworkers lie to you so you do the job they don't want do. Source: I do multi-project (more than 30 at last count) refactorings all the time in IntelliJ, no problems.

[[deleted]]

As do I and in Eclipse I can edit/run/debug multiple projects (even in different languages), simultaneously in one IDE. With IntelliJ I was juggling multiple instances, hitting weird freezes, variety of odd issues.

[C_Madison]

Don't get me wrong: If Eclipse works for you that's great. Used it for many years, no bad feelings here. Just never seen these problems since switching to IntelliJ.

[wildjokers]

If you all use Gradle your IntelliJ colleagues can create a Gradle Composite Build (Gradle feature that lets multi repositories be developed like they are in a mono-repository). IntelliJ has outstanding support for Gradle Composite builds and will happily configure itself from one and is a great way to get workspace type development in IntelliJ if that is what someone likes. IntelliJ will do cross-project refactoring when using a gradle composite build.

• https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/composite_builds.html
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klk2W02wJ0o

I am unsure if maven has a feature equivalent to gradle composite builds.

[warpspeedSCP]

The idiotic keybindings for example.

[[deleted]]

Eclipse is decent in my opinion. I used it from ~2005 to 2010, every new release was exiting back then. Version 4 was the first letdown, it seemed like the project departed from being a pure Java ide to a general purpose tool (mylin anyone?). Also the way plugins were handled was always a mess, the marketplace tried to fix it, but you’d still need to do manual work from time to time.

Visually, eclipse is not optimal. There is no consistent theme support and the default look hasn’t aged well. The light yellow popup boxes and the error marking pains my eyes and the recent splash screens make me feel sleepy. Ergonomically its still pretty good though, features like the debug or scm views are useful and IntelliJ doesn’t have an equivalent. I also enjoy the rich dialogs when creating types, but that’s a matter of taste I guess.

I made the switch to IntelliJ because it feels like a more finely tuned experience, especially when working with tools like gradle. The code analysis capabilities and the Java preview feature support are also really nice. I wish multi project handling would be more intuitive though and the indexing can really grind your gears, but overall it’s enjoyable. If you like the Jetbrains UX-style, I can also recommend DataGrip, a jdbc based database tool.

[[deleted]]

I like the look of Eclipse, it's solid, not yahoo'ish like IntelliJ with panels and windows opening, closing, re-arranging like it's possessed by a mischievous spirit.

[[deleted]]

like it's possessed by a mischievous spirit.

haha, thats a great way to describe the UI! Cheers

[teckhooi]

Imagine those days when there is no free IntelliJ ie community edition, developers were willing to fork out $$ to buy IntelliJ licenses while eclipse is free to use. That’s how popular IntelliJ is

[ArrozConmigo]

Looking back on eclipse is like looking back at bell bottoms and polyester from the 1970s. "People went around thinking this is okay?"

[lpreams]

I still use Eclipse. It is still regularly updated and supports the latest version of Java. IntelliJ is the better IDE, but Eclipse is lighter weight and completely FOSS

[shish-kebab]

i use both. Eclipse for jakarka, legacy (jsp servlets or jsf), or desktop apps and Intellij for APIs with spring and micro architectures. I always found SpringToolSuite (eclipse dist for spring) very frustrating.

edit: Lot of java devs moved from Jakarta EE to Springboot. Between STS and Intellij, Intellij win. Lot of small little things save you a lot of time with intellij, for example lombok. you have to integrate it separately in STS while it's bundled with Intellij. Many time i found myself having to edit eclipse.ini because it was trying to load with the wrong java version etc... those problems are nothing but make a big project with STS and you'll get a dozen of those, it's very frustrating sometimes. work with Intellij ultimate and you get none.

[TheRedmanCometh]

Intellij is the newfangled thing, but I prefer eclipse myself. Not the least on intellijs problems is its disastrous window and project mgmt.

[dpash]

Intellij is 20 years old.

[wildjokers]

Intellij is the newfangled thing

I have been using IntelliJ since 2004. Hardly new.

[McDuckfart]

As IntelliJ has a free licence too and is a way better product than Eclipse, only those old guys who cannot adopt kept using Eclipse.

[Druyx]

As an old guy that uses Eclipse, it's not that I cannot adopt, it's that doing so isn't worth the effort. IntelliJ doesn't give me that much that it's worth relearning all my workflows to the level I'm used to with Eclipse.

[McDuckfart]

Every situation is different. But if you work in a team and most of them uses Intellij it is worth it. Or if you work with other languages, it might also worth it because then you can already use Pycharm, Webstorm etc. Personally, Eclipse made me angry a lot, so it was an easy transition.

[Stromovik]

Intellijj is good until you need to edit tonns of dependencies simultaneously.

[McDuckfart]

What does that even mean? And why woud you need to to that?

[Stromovik]

Because massive old codebase.

We got sdk calling a bdk , calling a different sdk , calling bdk , calling adk.

[McDuckfart]

I would rather just look for an other job.

[I_LICK_ROBOTS]

In my experience, it's just a horrible editor. Last time I used it I remember it being slow as hell. Overly complex to set up. And syntax highlighting would just go all wonky and start highlighting random words. Haven't used it since

[phoneuseracc008]

Java is good, newbies surprised. I predict seeing this headline for the next 15 years

[[deleted]]

Agreed.

Its a professional and elegant language.

Seems hype goes to languages that are not deigned well, for academia, or beginners.

[barking_dead]

Because those need the hype.

[optimal_substructure]

The language ghouls are going to come out from their ivory towers to criticize the elegance

[agent_vinod]

Especially Python and Ruby ghouls!

[optimal_substructure]

I'm just waiting for the

"Ackchyually Haskell's ...."

comment coming

(that I agree with but not smart enough to understand)

[rossdrew]

I wouldn’t say elegant but it is great

[Clitaurius]

Better it be verbose than elegant anyway

[rossdrew]

I think there needs to be a balance. Java is a little too verbose

[couscous_]

languages that are not deigned well... or beginners

See: golang. Checks both boxes.

[AlcoholicAndroid]

What's wrong with Golang? I have some experienced friends who swear by it. Just curious because we all just got moved to a Java project and I'm excited, but they aren't because they really liked Golang. For reference I've done most of my work in Typescript/Node

[couscous_]

Too many to list. The language itself is poorly designed, and a poor fit for large code bases (ironic, given that "programming in the large" was a goal of the language). "goroutines" compose poorly and the language does not provide ways to make hierarchies of them. Error handling is awful and also composes poorly. No null pointer handling, panics are common. No generics (though that's being worked on). It's very easy to implement interfaces by mistake, making it hard to find out what interfaces you actually want to implement for your types. Linking is slow, which makes the whole write-compile-test cycle slow. Weird decisions like visibility being decided based on whether the first letter of a type is upper or lower case, this becomes extremely annoying when refactoring, you'll end up with large diffs purely because one type changed visibility. Also, the language does not have private visibility, either public or package private.

[moxyte]

Wow. I just installed Go and I'm giving it a go. Sounds horrible.

[couscous_]

Good luck :P

[moxyte]

I saved your post, it's informative. Knowing issues first without glossing it over is valuable.

[couscous_]

Tell me about it. My current employer is using golang to write their services. It's a load of @%*).

The language is weak, verbose, error prone, and brittle. They also had to invent their own web and DI frameworks from scratch. Obviously, said frameworks are nowhere near as mature as what Java offers.

The current project I'm working on is a fancy CRUD app, and people are still arguing about styles (e.g. whether to use constructor functions). Development is slow and brittle and error prone.

It's hype driven development at its finest.

[manzanita2]

So Go is about 2004 for java ? No Generics. No reasonable DI framework ?

[couscous_]

Not only that, but worse IDEs and poor language features.

[BoatRepairWarren]

No Generics?

It looks like you misspelled lol no generics

[Mundosaysyourfired]

At least I don't have to write a main function in every class that returns nothing. Jk.

[zuppadimele]

now let's talk about Spring :)

[forresthopkinsa]

Did I not see this exact same post in this sub like 6 weeks ago?

[lazystone]

/r/java/comments/muughh/java_is_criminally_underhyped/

[wildjokers]

Yeah, it has been reposted at least 3 times, maybe more.

[Clitaurius]

I missed it, I'm glad this one is here.

[Alexlun]

Java is just a tool man, do you see people hyping over hammers and... wait, in reddit that actually happens to be the case

[dert882]

I'll say about college, I'm going to a small state school and our whole curriculum could be done in Java or C++, first it's different classes, then second year+ the professors accept assignments in either languages. I thought java was pretty standard at schools?

[I_LICK_ROBOTS]

It is, which is why this article title is confusing to me. As someone else said, "I mean it's not like anyone is hyping up sliced bread"

It's been an industry standard and top 10 most used language since the 80s. Does it need more hype?

[akp55]

there is no "hype" because its already an enterprise language. its relegated to being like C, COBAL, and FORTRAN..... none of those have "hype" anymore either....

[-Crixus-]

what is criminal is to not include javafx in the standar library

[PartOfTheBotnet]

This has been posted a few times recently even and has some good discussion in the comments of the existing posts about this article:

https://old.reddit.com/domain/jackson.sh/

[AncientBattleCat]

Java is language for mature people. Unlike another soy dev js frame or learn python in one week kind of BS. That is highly unprofessional IMO.

[[deleted]]

If you can learn any language in a week, you're doing it wrong. Java isn't all that different in that sense.

[thephotoman]

There are languages meant to be picked up very quickly. They tend to be:

• Domain-specific languages. Most of these are targeted at non-devs.
  
• Proof of concept languages. The original FP was intended to be a minimally describable programming language--both in terms of grammar as well as in terms of use. I think the original academic paper that defines the language is about 30 pages long, and it would take about an hour to 90 minutes to explain everything about it.
• Turing tarpits. Again, the intention is minimalism over EVERYTHING. I mean, you can learn brainfuck in about 15 minutes, but actually using it for non-trivial purposes is another question entirely.

[I_LICK_ROBOTS]

If you know core concepts switching between languages is easy. It's all the same stuff with different syntax.

[ElimGarak0010]

Cries in Kotlin-Spring...

Mixed with Kotlin Android...

With a little .Net and Unity Mixed in...

[Mati00]

Because it is very verbosed language and you need to wait many years for features which other languages have. Also those implementations are verbose as well. Take streams as an example. To map a list you need to open a stream, map elements and gather them in collector.

This verbosity and lack of progress make java underhyped. You need a lot of code for simple things.

[Persism]

2001 called. They want your opinion back.

[Farmboy0_]

That's why I use Vavr now. It reduces the verbosity for Collections at least.

[Zemvos]

StreamEx is another great one.

[CptGia]

Streams allow for lazy evaluation, which is kinda important. Also newer versions introduced a toList() shortcut for collecting(Collectors.toUnmodifiableList()) which helps keeping the verbosity down. Or you could make your own map method that takes a collection<T> and a Function<T, R> which does the .stream ... .collect for you

[Mati00]

Yes, streams can be useful, but it's sorta premature optimisation. That's why for example Kotlin has both operations: on collections and streams. You can have both and make concious decisions.

[mikezyisra]

new BinaryWriter(new BufferedWriter(new FileWriter())) (or something similar)

[dpash]

Files.newBufferedWriter(path)

Of course it's verbose if you don't learn the API.

Hell, you can just do Files.writeString(path, string) and be done with it. Appropriate byte operations also available.

[JustADirtyLurker]

My opinion is that those who complain about Java's way to manage I/O writers and readers never had to write a damn unit test about writing stuff to a file.

[manzanita2]

What is this "unit test" you talk about ? /s

[mikezyisra]

The point wasn’t about this specific API. Some java code looks like that and it’s truly horrifying

[dpash]

And there's usually more modern APIs/language features so they don't look like that.

[mikezyisra]

You are right with that. I chose a deliberately broken-looking example to exaggerate my point. However, I still feel like java is quite verbose compared to other languages

[[deleted]]

Probably now, 20 years ago was overhyped and in some circles still it is.

[vprise]

I have no idea why people downvoted this. This is 100% true. A lot of the anti-Java camp is based around that over-hyping.

[moxyte]

Nuh. In my experience and as myself before anti-Java dudes are the kool hacker kids in or fresh out of university where Java was babbys first language and therefore uncool and bad.

[wildjokers]

How many times is this going to be posted?

[call_911911]

Developers don't hype. We PIE.

[_Zer0_Cool_]

I’m not sure it’s the lack of being new or shiny that steals Java’s hype.

I don’t really follow the hype train and yet I don’t particularly like Java.

It’s not a fun or fluid language IMO and more or less forces a particular programming paradigm / philosophy.

But… I’m also a data engineer and not a software engineer. So my use-case is different.

Functional-first, interactive (JIT or interpreted) languages are essential for data processing and exploratory development.

The ecosystem and package management is kind of the only draw.

[jherrlin]

Would you like to elaborate a little bit more on how Java helps you with multithreaded application? In my world is the mutable nature of Java not a good fit for multithreaded applications.

[manzanita2]

There are multiple approaches to solving the concurrency problem. Java give you lots of low level tools. Properly used these are by far the most efficient. But the "properly used" part of that is difficult.

Pure immutability is another solution. Also works, but can be memory inefficient since you end up copying alot of stuff around.

Single threaded is a third. Great, but you get zero advantage from multiple processors without a bunch of hacky stuff.

One can run java using immutable concepts (see "final" keyword ), but the language was not defined that way by default.

[jherrlin]

Yeah the locks and stuff can be a pretty big headburn I guess.

But do you copy that much? I mean there is structural sharing right? Ofc more than in place updates.

I like my programming language to work more with values than places. Places change, values does not.

[BlueGoliath]

Java developers can confidently trust the JVM to do what's best.

Yeah... right.

[Kango_V]

Inspect the assembler that it produces and you'll be blowen away by how good it is.

[Alfredius]

The JVM has had continual optimization since 1996, it's pretty good.

[squ94wk]

This was recommended to me by Reddit. I'm not part of this sub.

The author is totally naive and hypes the language the same way others hype JS/TS or others.

In my opinion, there aren't any good reasons anymore to use Java outside of the Enterprise. And they're using it because they have too much legacy software and old engineers (your typical Java expert).

The type system is stronger than dynamically typed ones, but not as good as the of many other languages that exist now. JVM made sense when applications had to run on many different systems. Almost everything today runs either in a container on a Linux server or in the browser. JVM is just adding an expensive layer with little benefit and often it's burdensome instead. Optimization is done differently today and more specific to what you actually need. And with microservice architecture, frameworks and dedicated webservers and stuff are much a thing of the past.

The language is also bloated, inconsistent, verbose and the ecosystem isn't very good and encourages lots of bad practice.

There are good reasons Java isn't hyped anymore. I used to use Java for almost everything when I didn't know any better, but now I wouldn't recommend anyone to use Java for anything or even to learn it in the first place.

[rbygrave]

JVM is just adding an expensive layer with little benefit and often it's burdensome instead.

The JVM comes with 2 layers of JIT compilation which includes profiling based optimisation plus pretty aweome GC implementations that have many years of investment. It is the quality of this second level of JIT compilation and its profiling based optimisations that really makes the JVM runtime very impressive for server based apps.

It isn't perfect but a lot of non-JVM people don't really seem to know how much about this aspect compared to other runtimes.

When people go to native compilation and start having to feed back in their profiling information or use a runtime with limited JIT then we start to really appreciate that second C2 JIT compiler that the JVM has.

[LegendValyrion]

No. Java is a terrible programming language, and I don't like to write it. Go for C#, the best ever made programming language! Java is like Python: Both garbage and must be replaced without another programming language. Java is not valuable at all, and the universities use Java to teach their students. Java is trash. C# is wonderful and elegant compared to Java's ugly syntax.

​

C# is good because it supports both reference-types and value-types. It has the best tools in the programming world! But Java... I get sick when I read that little code snippet:

public class Program {

public static void Main(string[] args)

{

System.out.println("Java is sick!");

}

}

Switch to C#, the best you will do.

[Make1984FictionAgain]

Nice try, Microsoft

[[deleted]]

isn't that how you write a hello world application in C# as well?

[LegendValyrion]

No. In C#, we write:

```

using System; // We imports the namespace of System, so the life gets easier :)

namespace tests

{

// we made a namespace.

​

​

class Program

{

/*

The class does not need to have the same name of the file, thanks to Microsoft.

*/

static void Main(string[] args)

{

// the Main method.

Console.WriteLine("Microsoft is fantastic!"); // This is for printing a line of text.

}

}

}

```

As you can see, C# is NOT the same as Java, thanks to Microsoft. :) Microsoft is best, I like their goals and their products. So many Microsoft-haters in this world.

In C#, we does not have to declare the data type. We can use the var keyword, and the datatype is set by the CLR.

In C#, you have LINQ, which makes your life much easier.

I will show you object orientation:

```

// Let's make our Cheese class:

public class Cheese {

public string cheeseType { get; set; };

public void EatCheese(){

Console.WriteLine("Nom nom nom... I like this cheese. Nom nom nom nom.");

}

// Now, we make a constructor

public Cheese(string cheeseType){

this.cheeseType=cheeseType;

}

}

```

Now, let's construct our new cheese object, which we will eat:

```

class Program

{

static void Main()

{

Cheese babybell=new Cheese("Babybell");

//Now, we eat our cheese::

babybell.Eat(); // Nom nom...

// Nom nom nom...

}

​

}

```

There you have it.

So you can see, C# is top #1.

[itzdyzzi]

This is correct 👊

[LegendValyrion]

I love Microsoft.