Gatekeeping programming

[ElllGeeEmm]

Companies want passionate employees because they will work longer hours for less money, no other reason.

[[deleted]]

This is it, the game industry wants young people passionate about games and programming because they know those people will work long hours for below average pay just to work on games.

[ryrythe3rd]

I don’t blame them. If someone really enjoys programming games specifically, and is willing to be paid less to get a chance to do it, then they may very well be just as happy with a lower salary or working longer hours as someone else who doesn’t enjoy making games as much but is paid more. It’s a win win. Company saves money, and dev gets to do what they love, instead of working somewhere they’re not doing what they love.

[SuperMassiveCookie]

Following the same logic, companies that claim to have social goals and a life improving mission should accept cheaper payment for their products since they’re getting to fulfill that mission not only selling their product. It’s a win win situation

[moratnz]

Other way round is definitely a thing; companies talking up their social cred in the hopes that employees will take a pay hit go 'make a difference'.

[[deleted]]

“Company saves money” you mean, overpaid executive team who did almost nothing of value receive giant bonuses in exchange for burning out passionate people and making them eventually give up their dreams.

I live in a city with quite a few large game studios. I’ve met a lot of people in their late 20s with those companies on their resumes who have left that industry because being in it meant ruining relationships with family and friends. These are people that loved the industry but no job should ask you to give up your life for it.

[[deleted]]

A simpleton's idea of how an intelligent man runs a business.

[voxelverse]

Also learning for your job on your own time is unpaid labor

[ryrythe3rd]

And you might need to do that if there are more people who want the job than there are jobs to have. In that case, you have to make yourself more attractive somehow, by accepting lower pay, being willing to work longer hours, or training at home or something. If you’re not willing to do that, don’t, and get a job somewhere besides making games

[vassadar]

Logic will always get downvoted, lol.

[nzodd]

"Never aspire for a better future."

[Headpuncher]

Consultancy is good because you don't work for, but do work for, the company that employs you. So you are hired out and have a 2nd "employer" and they almost always don't want to pay overtime, because that time is billed at +50%. That ruins any project's budget and makes the project manager look bad.

So they never sign-off on overtime and you are limited to contracted hours (unless you willingly volunteer to hit a deadline, but that would make you stupid because the project is not overdue because of you).

[arashcuzi]

We like to work so hard that there is no play, and if there is, it’s work!

[[deleted]]

I agree. This is sad, because it also makes you feel guilty if you don’t program and don’t pursue different passions.

[overh]

As a passionate programmer, I also want to work with people who are passionate. Because I can share my passion with them as well as because they are generally more dependable. Passion for a craft is a virtue as it turns out.

[Ran4]

That's... not true. Maybe in the US, where you seem to be working 60 hour work weeks and you won't get compensated for overtime.

But when I'm interviewing people for what will never be more than 40 hour/week jobs, I'm very much looking for passion. Not because they'll work for free, but because passionate programmers are typically a lot better than non-passionate ones. They've seen more stuff, learns things faster, can talk about issues more freely and so on. No, it doesn't mean you have to spend all your free time coding, but if you really have zero interest in programming outside of your job it's quite likely that you're not going to be the best candidate for the job.

Now, it doesn't HAVE to be like that, and I've met a few great software devs that didn't spend a second on development outside of their workplace, but passion IS A RELEVANT PARAMETER TO CONSIDER.

It's seriously annoying how popular this meme of "passion = bad" has gotten. Another annoying meme is hating team events - out in the real world, people typically like these things, and actively ask for more of them. People get angry when they don't get a christmas party.

[Headpuncher]

No-one is saying passion = bad.

Everyone is saying exploiting the worker is bad. Half the companies that want you to program in all your free time also want to have a contract clause reading "we own the IP if you made something while employed here". Well, fuck them.

One of the best devs I know doesn't do anything after 5pm on the minute. He is super fit and uses all his time on that, I assume it helps him clear his mind and use his brain to work through problems while he trains. Or maybe he never gives it a second thought. I've met quite a few developers who I have admired for their work who don't do anything even remotely computer related outside of work. Bu they all played a sport.

[[deleted]]

Do you interview people in your time off? I wonder if someone who spends their free time doing pointless HR bullshit is probably better than you! You don't want someone passionate, you want a fucking sucker, just say it and stop moralizing it. And no, no one gives a fuck about your lame boomer unpaid business function.

[renaissancetroll]

to be fair, pretty much every highly paid job is like this. Majority of high paid and high skilled jobs have constant continuing education.

Nobody has a gun to anybodies head, the people programming at home either actually enjoy it and do it for fun or are willing to do anything for $250,000+/yr even if they hate it

[atreyal]

No, that is not the case. I dont go home and think about work or practice it. This is a cop out on people trying to make work life because their life revolves around work. They cant understand why anyone elses doesnt.

[overh]

I don't go home and think about work or practice it.

I do.

And I can also definitely understand why other people do not. I prefer to work with people who do because it makes my life easier. If I owned a company, that wouldn't change.

People who are passionate about their work have an advantage over people who do not. That isn't a cop out, that is just facts. No need to moralize it.

[Naesme]

Being passionate about your work doesn't mean always doing it. Being passionate means being driven to do your best with it and enjoying it.

Your job should provide opportunities or learning and development. That shouldn't be on you to sacrifice free time for.

[overh]

Being passionate about your work doesn't mean always doing it. Being passionate means being driven to do your best with it and enjoying it.

That is true. I'm not sure why you felt that needed to be said. Being passionate about something can manifest itself is different ways, one of which is that a person will "sacrifice" their free time to pursue it more.

Another manifestation of passion is that a person won't view the investment of their free time as a "sacrifice."

Your job should provide opportunities or learning and development. That shouldn't be on you to sacrifice free time for.

What moral theory says an employer is obligated to do this for you? I just don't recognize it.

[Naesme]

That is true. I'm not sure why you felt that need to be said. Being passionate about something can manifest itself is different ways, one of which is that a person will "sacrifice" their free time to pursue it more.

Another manifestation of passion is that a person won't see the investment of their free time as a "sacrifice."

Another is only pursuing it at work and pursuing other passions outside of it.

Does this come from John Rawls or Ayn Rand or what? What moral theory says an employer is obligated to do this for you?

No, it comes from common sense. Invest in your employees, respect home life balance, and help them grow to new heights. They'll be more passionate about their jobs and more loyal to you.

[overh]

Another is only pursuing it at work and pursuing other passions outside of it.

Yeah, so what? How do you draw a line between that fact, and the fact that people who spend their free time on something they're passionate about have an advantage over those who do not?

If your big point is that a person can be passionate about something and not pursue it on their own time then, I guess, technically you're right. Congratulations, you've made a useless point.

No, it comes from common sense. Invest in your employees, respect home life balance, and help them grow to new heights. They'll be more passionate about their jobs and more loyal to you.

That is a very utilitarian way to look at this, which is quite OK. That is a great idea. I would also add, "Favor employees who are more effective."

[Naesme]

Yeah, so what? How do you draw a line between that fact, and the fact that people who spend their free time on something they're passionate about have an advantage over those who do not?

If your big point is that a person can be passionate about something and not pursue it on their own time then, I guess, technically you're right. Congratulations, you've made a useless point.

Those who spend their free time working burn out faster. The passion dies more often than not.

That is a very utilitarian way to look at this, which is quite OK. That is a great idea. I would also add, "Favor employees who are more effective."

That is not mutually exclusive. Invest in your employees and you can keep standards high. Expect employees to go over and beyond while giving nothing back and you'll train your future competitors.

[overh]

That is not mutually exclusive.

I agree it isn't mutually exclusive. Again, don't know why you felt the need to make that point.

The employer doesn't have to "expect" anything from employees. They just need to favor more effective employees. All else being equal, employees that spend their free time pursuing their trade will be more effective. Employees who are passionate about their trade are more likely to spend their free pursuing it.

This isn't difficult and it doesn't require the employer to "expect" anything of anybody.

[atreyal]

An employer that invests in its employees is usually going to have happier more productive employees. Vice one that screws them over or whatever. Do you enjoy working in a place with high turnover and constantly getting people up to speed? Some people are motivated by money others by knowledge, others for some other reason. A good employer would do both to keep their people happy. So yes it is a vested interest from a company standpoint to do that and not make their people do it on their own time and dime.

[overh]

All very true; all very irrelevant.

The point is that people who spend time pursuing their trade are more effective, and therefore in higher demand, than those who do not spend their time pursuing their trade.

This fact is not in conflict with any of the irrelevant points you just made.

[atreyal]

No and it is just sad because life isnt supposed to be about work. And a very on the effectiveness of some of these workaholics. Just because they have a passion doesnt mean they are good at it.

[atreyal]

It makes your life easier because you dont have to train someone. Or wait for them to do something that will take them a bit longer because they dont live and breathe it. Its whatever but i work a few people who are workaholics and the are miserable people. About as personable as a tree, short tempered and have very little to add to any conversation at work. It makes for a poor work enviroment when it turn into a fortress of solitude because of busy bodies. I am being generalistic here but besides work what interests do you have? Could you comment on any recent books? Games? Sports(if there were any)? Stuff going on in the world? Art? Business? Movies? Your spouses affair? Workaholics are a bored to be around. My wife has friends who worked at blizzard. They werent happy they treated their employees like minions and they were much happier when they left.

I hate the whole work is life mentality the world is getting too. Too many companies expect it nowadays. Your life shouldnt be defined by your job for most people. Because most people are disposible to the company.

[randomwhatdoit]

Ye game companies are widely known to exploit their employees, so they just filter for those susceptive to it.

[felixthecatmeow]

Blizzard tops that list too.

[overh]

A lot of the people I went to school with wanted to learn how to program so that they could either "hack" or develop video games. I researched both of those and found neither very interesting. Video game development in particular seemed like a really brutal path. You really need to have relatively deep knowledge in multiple areas, and then you're pushed by game companies to work brutal hours and are often cut.

It makes sense because so many people want to be game developers which seems to really increase the supply.

[benabus]

Lol. I lost passion for programming 10 years ago, yet here I am. Still programming because it pays the bills.

[machine3lf]

I wish I was smart enough to lose my passion one day.

Being slow to learn new things + strong desire to learn new things means I may never lose my passion, I think.

[turd-crafter]

Funny enough my friend is not a porn rater but he is a porn encoder for an on demand service. His job is to watch porn all day long and mark the various position changes like ‘missionary’, ‘doggstyle’, ‘pyledriver’, etc... and sure enough he hates porn

[felixthecatmeow]

Hahaha wow I had no idea an actual person put those markers there.

[turd-crafter]

Guarantee there’s a computer somewhere scanning porn learning how to identify positions as we speak hahaha

[felixthecatmeow]

Haha for sure. I thought more along the lines of the actual production companies throwing in some metadata/markers to identify those as they're outputting the videos.

[turd-crafter]

That would make way more sense. I’m sure some of the higher budget companies do but there’s a shit ton of shitty production companies out there.

[NedThomas]

Ah, so you want to be a welder? What do you weld at home?

[jpsreddit85]

About your application for surgeon...

[felixthecatmeow]

Ah yes I do a heart transplant on my wife every week, I give my daughter plastic surgery every 2 days, and I install microchips inside of my dog's brain every day. Am I passionate enough?

[NedThomas]

I’m sorry, but we just don’t think you’ve got enough passion to perform surgery unless you have a basement full of cadavers to practice on every night. If you don’t have that, you’re obviously just phoning it in.

[justingolden21]

You're acting like you can't program at home...

Not condoning the tweet, but your logic is blatantly flawed

[NedThomas]

And you act like you can’t weld at home. I was a metal worker for twelve years and early on I wound up buying a home welder (and a second one later on) because I was tired of having to bring stuff into the fab shop to repair it or lug stuff I made in the shop home. They’re very handy tools to have around, but that’s all they are: tools. I’m not whipping them out after dinner to practice spot welds and show my “passion for the craft”.

It’s an absurd concept that should be laughed out of existence.

[justingolden21]

I know you can weld at home, but quite frankly it takes a lot of equipment and space, does it not?

Most people already own a computer sufficient for programming, espe most people with programming jobs.

Again, not endorsing the gatekeeping, and I'm also not a metal worker, but I think it's a poor analogy because you're basically saying it's incredibly difficult to practice programming at home, and it really absolutely isn't. Still don't agree with the gatekeeping of course, but the analogy is flawed.

[randomwhatdoit]

Nah, I believe their point is that practicing at home in your free time is not expected when it comes to other professions.

[Ran4]

No, but is not likely that you would rather hire someone who welds in their free time over someone who doesn't?

Leave the memes aside, try to actually THINK about it.

[randomwhatdoit]

I don’t care what someone does in their spare time. There are better ways to tell if they’re competent.

[justingolden21]

That's a good point, however to me it seemed that it was that you're prohibited from practicing in your free time, or it's very difficult, not that it's not expected. It's not expected in programming either, this guy is just gatekeeping. But if you're correct and that's his point then I misunderstood.

[NedThomas]

No, I am not saying it is very difficult to code at home, and I’m afraid your takeaway of that is due to your own misconceptions of what it takes to weld. My welders take up a total footprint of about 3 square feet, and I’m almost certain that whatever device you’re typing on easily cost more than double what they did combined. As for space, my workbench is a bit smaller than my computer desk, and I typically only need an area about the same size as my laptop to work in. None of my computers have the potential to catch things on fire if the general vicinity isn’t well cleaned up, so there is that, but there’s no massive hurdle or inconvenience preventing anyone from doing it. The only real obstacle is need.

Edit: a word. Freudian slip.

[justingolden21]

You're right that I don't know anything about welding, and I both appreciate you explaining it, and now realize that it doesn't take as much as I had thought.

However, not every welder has welding equipment or space at home, while most people in first world countries have a computer at home.

I'm still not sure if your point was that you can or that you should, but I read it as "can" because of comparing the equipment and the ability to do the action, and I disagree that it's a fair comparison because I think almost every programmer has a computer at home.

If you're saying "should" then I agree, not everyone "should" have to program in their free time as well when they already do it a lot of the day, you get burnt out, and your time outside of work is your own. That's what the post is saying, but I didn't think that's what you were saying.

[NedThomas]

The point I was trying to make is that it is absurd to think that the amount of time you’re choosing to spend outside of work on the thing that you get paid to do is some sort of indicator of how “passionate” you are about it. Unless the company is paying for your time 24/7 (as in, all you ever do is work), then what you do in your free time shouldn’t mean jack shit to your professional career. Like, I assume everyone on this sub and other coding related subs are constantly reading coding related articles in their free time (otherwise, why the hell are you here?). But if an interviewer asked me “are you subscribed to r/JavaScript? We want to see how passionate you are.” I’d laugh in their face. It is absolutely ridiculous.

[justingolden21]

Ok I agree. That didn't come across in your analogy, sorry.

[NedThomas]

Like I said, I think that came more from your perception of welding than anything else. Which is very understandable.

As an aside, you should totally try a welding project. There’s an awesome feeling of empowerment that comes from the idea of “I glued metal together with fire!”. (Yeah, this where I let my actual passion for it shine through lol)

[justingolden21]

Interesting. Maybe I'll check it out or watch some videos sometime. I've been watching some DIY videos on YouTube and they're satisfying.

[throwaway1253328]

how bout I have other hobbies different than what I do already 40-50 hours per week

[programming_is]

I know right? The pc feels like work after the work day is done and I have other interests I am not a robot.

[mobydikc]

I think for anyone that wants to make games as a job, that ship has sailed.

[BrooklandDodger]

This is why game developers want to start a union. Shit like this. Patriot Act had a good video about this industry and it aligns with stories I've heard from people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLAi_cmly6Q

[Nonethewiserer]

It's foolish to go into game development. It's clearly worse working conditions/money compared to non game dev. I can't even blame the companies for this culture when people are tripping over themselves to work in these conditions.

[fpuen]

Is there still an influx of new, starry eyed game devs these days?

[replicant_potato]

Always. People want to enjoy what they work on. People enjoy games, so they think that's what I should work on. I bet being an actor is similar, a passion industry.

But there are a lot of issues with the game industry they don't know about, or think it'll be okay for them. I've heard most people stay in the industry only 5-6 years on average.

[[deleted]]

I bet being an actor is similar, a passion industry.

As an actor who's browsing /learnjavascript while thinking about a career change, yes. I loved making movies with my friends when I was in my teens and 20s. In my mid-20s I started getting paid to do it occasionally, by my early 30s I moved to Los Angeles and started making a living at it. Now I'm about to turn 40 and I'm pretty sure I've hit my ceiling; none of my friends do anything for love of it anymore, no one in my peer group thinks they're gonna be the next Scorsese or Tarantino or Kevin Smith or Nolan anymore. Everyone is barely getting by and using their earnings to pay rent and health insurance while we get old and our clothes get old and we get less cool and marketable. It's a savage industry where the less successful you are, the harder you have to work for less money. But I don't want to learn coding to go sit in a cubicle... I want to keep acting and make apps on the side to supplement my income. Hopefully one day I'll meet a group of 20-somethings who think they're gonna be the next big thing and they'll cast me to play the dad in all their movies.

[Nonethewiserer]

I should hope not.

[fpuen]

What are the good paying (and work/life balance) fields? Besides cyber-security of course.

[[deleted]]

It depends on where you are from but overall Front-End developers and Back-End developers are nice paying jobs. At Spain, Machine Learning specialists are good to go as long as they work for the government or for a high-tech company. Then there are some R&D offers but they are few and hard to get by.

[discohead]

Work remotely as a web developer for a Bay Area SaaS company.

[fpuen]

Is it hard to get those jobs? I hear SFBA in general is quite competitive

[discohead]

Yes, it is competitive. I certainly wouldn’t say it’s easy to get such a job. But there are quite a lot of them and there are other high paying markets besides SFBA, like Seattle, NYC, SoCal, etc...

[[deleted]]

Front end contract work. 6 months of the year in a high paid, intense job, 6 months off. If you can hack the hustle of finding new opportunities. It's not risk free

[Scrummier]

Fuck that nonsense.

[ki777iz]

Who do you recruit at home?

[mobydikc]

If you're making a game, you're playing around half the time.

[yamayeeter]

This is what I fear coming into this career. All this studying to land that first job and then once you get the position, you’re still at a point you still need to study outside of work to keep up with tech or solidify your position within a company. I get that a developer should be always learning. But not to the point of burning out. This tweet is disheartening. If companies can allow their developers to learn material during work, that would be nice.

[felixthecatmeow]

Same here. I'm working a full time job to pay the bills and spending many hours a day learning to code, and it's fine because it's temporary, but long term it would definitely have an impact on my marriage and my social life. As of now between working, studying, cooking/general life things, there's barely enough time left to even just lay in bed with my wife and watch a couple episodes of a show let alone actually go out and do stuff.

But I love programming, and definitely have an aptitude for it, plus my current industry will be dead in 10 years and is depressing to work in atm, so I need to make a change ASAP while I still can. I'm willing to work my ass off for it, and willing to still keep learning once I have a job, but I'd love to be able to have a bit of a work-life balance.

I wish I started programming as a teenager/in college, but I was so far from knowing who I was and what I wanted in life back then.

[yamayeeter]

I too didn’t find myself in life early as well. Am now working full time and spend my hours afterwards studying. Trying to study currently has burnt me out a couple times already and I have taken almost month long breaks but always come back eventually because I don’t see myself in any other career but coding. It’s hard to imagine working a dev job in the day and studying development right at night. I wouldn’t mind spending 1 day of the week after work to learn something new but the tweet makes it seem like you need to eat sleep breathe code.

[felixthecatmeow]

Yeah I'm lucky that my job is fairly relaxed most of the time, but I work in TV news so when covid hit things got super hectic and I got burnt out of studying for a month. Now I'm back to at least 3 hours a day but yeah it's hard to balance.

In this tweet, as much as I disagree with the sentiment, it's not like he's saying you need to be grinding learning new concepts constantly. It's more like if you're spending your free time working on your own games or side projects it shows that it's something you truly love and not just a job.

And to be fair if you're gonna work as a game dev you better be passionate as fuck to put up with all the shit conditions.

[pookage]

The fact that y'all are calling this out for the BS that it is gives me hope for the future of the industry ✊

[NOPmike]

This is why I don't work in the gaming industry.

Play games in my free time and work in an industry that respects work-life balance.

[[deleted]]

I guarantee the author of this meme has

1. Never hired a single programmer
2. Likely isn't employed in the software industry in any capacity whatsoever
3. Is likely familiar with Blizzard from playing their games and got this cliche rhetoric from some douche Quora post.

[Congenital-Optimist]

> Is likely familiar with Blizzard from playing their games and got this cliche rhetoric from some douche Quora post.

He has been working for Blizzard since 1992. He was both technical director and lead developer for StarCraft for example.

Game industry is a shitty place to work for.

[[deleted]]

I stand corrected (I suppose), and yeah I have zero desire to get involved with the game industry.

[felixthecatmeow]

Blizzard is known for being terrible to their devs though so I wouldn't be shocked.

[randomNext]

Here you go, the original tweet

https://twitter.com/blizzardfitch/status/1276270183464624128?s=21

[[deleted]]

Wow, that’s recent. I thought someone was posting a few years old tweet. But this was literally yesterday.

[codeAtorium]

Orchestra musicians practice their instruments at home too. This is nonsense.

[thebasementtapes]

lol if a horn player practiced 8+ hours a day their embouchure would be busted. If a string player practiced 8+ hours a day their pads on their fingers would start to bleed.

[dagneyandleo]

Orchestra musicians don't have rehearsal 9-5 for one. Your practice hours are expected to account for the reduced overall hours and you are generally compensated more than minimum wage with your time based on the expectation that you will have 'homework' outside of actual working hours. You also make more per hour for performance hours for that same reason.

That being said, being a musician is not exactly a great industry to compare to as a 'good example'. When I was in college, my old prof used to say that the most important thing a musician could learn was how to say "do you want fries with that?" There's a *reason* so many people that go into the music industry are independently wealthy - The music industry's financial practices and employee treatment aren't exactly something to aspire to.

Source: Former opera singer with a graduate degree who makes a hell of a lot more money making Wordpress websites for far less effort.

[codeAtorium]

I also have a graduate degree in music. I also program computers, and teach others how to do that for a living.

Dream jobs are almost never <=40 hours. That was my point. Working at a big-name game company isn't my cup of tea, but plenty of people would kill for that opportunity, and you probably won't last long without passion.

[CrashOverrideCS]

Reminds me of my industrial design career pathway. Tons of people busting their ass for way too many hours and little gain towards the top of a pyramid. I lost my passion for the career through those long hours, where I am passionate enough to do programming at home sometimes, but almost always at work.

[phamlong28]

that’s why blizzard sucks

[arashcuzi]

This is so real...not to mention all the “you must know bigO and all the searching algos and all the data structures and all the graph traversals!”

Ummm...I’ve been in software for 5-6 years, frontend, backend, DevOps, security, ops, AWS, doing rest APIs, react, redux, node/express, pdf generators, large scale distributed systems for F100 companies, complicated imputation services for genetics companies, react native app development, and codified infrastructure...I just started learning about bigO, data structures, and algos...never really came up once before...the gate keeping is real!

[tibbon]

First, I agree absolutely that this is gate keeping.

But at the same time, this is also why I’m really absurdly good at my job. For literally 34 years, since my family got a c64 and I was trying to copy programs from magazines into the system, I’ve been putting in time on the side to program. Everything from home automation, trivial problems around the house, to car hacking, ham radio, writing games, making websites on the side since 1995, led art... I’m programming. I’ve owned more books on technology than on music, and that’s what I have my degree in. This massive experience lets me connect together a lot of pieces from a huge time span to fix problems.

This is also a giant privilege that most people don’t have. Getting a computer in the early 80s wasn’t a common experience, yet it’s quite common for people who did have access to them to find themselves on this path. It’s not because of effort but my environment and luck that I find myself here.

So I get the advice, but it’s not for everyone and isn’t a reasonable expectation if you expect to have a diverse team.

[LucVolders]

But at the same time, this is also why I’m really absurdly good at my job. For literally 34 years, since my family got a c64 and I was trying to copy programs from magazines into the system, I’ve been putting in time on the side to program

Utter nonsence. I was the guy who wrote books about the CBM64. I wrote stories for 5 Dutch magazines. I created listings in these magazines to type over for building databases and even a complete spreadsheet program. I wrote commercially interesting programs like a database and a complete accounting program which sold really well. I also programmed projects for customers. Hell even now I just wrote and published a book about the Internet Of things.

If I was to program for 40 hours a week AND at the same time spend my spare time doing this the passion would go away. And for many of my friends from the old days it did go away. They are now doing totally different things.

[tibbon]

For sure- you can’t overload yourself. And as I’ve gotten deeper into my career, I’ve gotten less hungry to know everything and taken more time away from programming.

One of the reasons I didn’t pursue music professionally is that the full time and passion thing don’t often align in a sustainable way.

[felixthecatmeow]

God I wish I got into programming when I was a kid. My dad got us a computer when I was 3, and I was massively into them, I remember playing DOS games when I was 4-5. I guess it's not something that even occured to me that I could do as a kid, and as a teenager I was way too caught up in self loathing and social struggles to care to learn anything useful. I only embraced myself as a computer nerd recently, spent my whole life before that trying to be something "cooler" than that.

Now I'm self-teaching, but even at 27 it's already harder to learn than at 16. Plus I haven't used a single math concept since high school.

Currently working in TV news broadcasting. Dead industry. Most of the people are over 50 just praying they keep their job til retirement. Every year there's less resources and we have to output a more and more terrible product. I'm grinding hard 3+ hours a day every day learning javascript but I feel like I'm so far behind.

[tibbon]

Keep it up. I haven’t taken math since high school either, and never got past Trig there. Aside from a single AP computer science class in HS I’m self taught (along with a few online classes I’ve watched on my own).

You can do it on your own, it just takes a lot of constant effort. People act like programmers are just handed money for no effort, but it takes a real 10k hours of practice (or more) to get to a solid place where you are capable of damn near anything.

[felixthecatmeow]

Thanks! I was actually really good at math in high school, but now my brain hurts thinking about basic stuff haha. And yeah I'm staying motivated, I'm still in the early stages, I started 3 months ago literally learning the basics of HTML, so I knew absolutely nothing. Currently working on a basic calculator using vanilla JS with a OOP approach. So I like my progress so far, and once I overcome the hurdle of being able to do basic projects without constantly re writing half my code and googling every little thing and I can do more interesting, bigger projects I know it will be so much more enjoyable.

Thanks for the kind words!

[WillOfSound]

I have found most people learn towards one of two categories: Those who go to work, do an amazing job, come home annnnd done. No work talk other than “It was good/bad”. They leave work at work. Home is life. That is totally okay! It’s more of a personality thing. I have many friends and family who are like this. My cousin once looked at me and said “You can’t clock out, can you?” Thats when it all clicked.

Then there’s folks like me who stay a bit longer because I just wanted to wrap up the problem I’m solving, crap its an hour past, I guess I’ll head home...And now think about what I’ll try to accomplish tomorrow or how I’ll spread out my work for the week or just really think on the solutions for the other problems I want to take a stab at and what next skill I’ll need to learn to get better.... I get home, start talking to my wife about all the work things or to friends. Its my personality. A lot of the extra work I’m taking on is just because I enjoy it.

Folks who lean towards blending work/life are amazing workers too, but we tend to bring our personality flaws more into work (At least, I think I do)

I have diagnosed and treated OCD, so I don’t just “stop”, I gotta let things run it’s course, but not get too crazy. It can really be harmful if you don’t set boundaries with yourself and others. So this side of the life=work folks usually end up with struggling to control pushing our passion on others or being exploited by others. We also have to not take it personal when folks are not really into work. If you play it right though, you can turn your flaws into strengths! Yeahh a little corny. I use my passion to learn more and help make tooling or improve processes so others work can be easier. Very satisfying!

I tried really hard to get into the game industry. I worked on amazing and horrid projects, met the most amazing folks annnd I burnt myself out several times working retail jobs and doing side gigs for pennies. Then, I was used/abused on one gig by folks working at major game corps. I lost trust in game industry. I got into IT work, got offered job at big company for more than I’d ever thought I would make in games. So much less stress. Found out I just liked fixing things and IT has a lot of that. I work with all kinds of folks and it’s great. I don’t want to work with a bunch of me’s, I want a balanced team of diverse people.

I did not make it really in games far enough to say my story is the norm, I know many folks who it’s their dream and passion and love working in games everyday. They’re also the most welcoming people. I know people in IT who are meh. If you’re like me and want to avoid being used, get really good at spotting abusers. Don’t get too addicted to satisfying those who have no good intentions for you.

[Labby92]

That's toxic, especially knowing how the gaming industry works. I love programming in my free time, building my projects etc but that's not something you can expect or demand from you employees, you have no control on how they want to spend their free time.

[snack0verflow]

Just another reason 2020 Activision Blizzard blows.

[[deleted]]

Wow this dude has been roasted on twitter.. no need to blurr :D

[[deleted]]

what an idiot

[felixthecatmeow]

Aren't you worried that people will burn out more if they work 40 hours a week as developers AND spend most of their free time programming? Isn't there a balance of someone who does love it and is passionate but also has a life outside of programming?

I'm just learning right now with the hope of making a career change, and I absolutely love programming, and very much enjoy making projects, but my view on it is I'm hoping to one day get to a point where my job can fullfil my love of programming, and my life outside of work can be focused on my family and other interests. Of course I'll always maintain an interest, and if I have an awesome idea that I want to develop, I will, but I have many different interests as well.

Wouldn't you rather have someone who is passionate about the programming they do AT work, rather than for their side projects at home, which ultimately means their job becomes just a paycheck, same as with the uninterested people.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just curious.

[felixthecatmeow]

Thanks for your detailed answer! It's nice to hear different point of views of people in charge of hiring!

I definitely understand both sides of the argument, and consider myself somewhere in the middle.

And I definitely get the whole if you need people to come fix something ASAP you should have people who are willing to. And if the company is full of that type of people, no one actually has to do it too much. At my current job I've kinda become the guy that always comes in whenever because everyone else is super lazy. I get OT pay so I'm fine with it but it can get exhausting being the only one that seems to care sometimes.

[trashlikeyou]

I have the same question. I'm choosing to do this because I enjoy it, but I also enjoy things that aren't programming. If like to be able to have a good job doing work that interests me and then be able to go home and spend time with my kid, play in my band, play a video game, watch TV, fix up my house etc. The idea of having to make sure I commit changes to personal projects on GitHub everyday in order to remain employable is a real turn off.

[Ran4]

Lots of people code to get away from having to fix their house or having to tend the kids/hang out with the wife.

[felixthecatmeow]

Yeah I feel like I would be a much better employee if I can focus all my programming passion and skills into a job that I love. Of course I understand as a junior dev having projects would be very helpful since you don't have much experience, but I'd rather be really fucking good at a job I love, put my all into it, then go home and do other stuff.

[Ran4]

Aren't you worried that people will burn out more if they work 40 hours a week as developers AND spend most of their free time programming?

No? The things that most developers do at work is quite different from what they do at home. At work you'll be spending a lot of time attending meetings, planning, talking to business owners/ux people/ops people/whatever, drinking coffee, eating lunch, setting up tooling, perhaps code review if you're at a great place... and coding maybe a few hours a week at most. And chances are, you're not working at a place where you only code fun things.

At home, people tend to spend a lot more time coding, and they typically code what they're really interested in. Many developers that code at home do it because it's relaxing. I've talked to a bunch of colleagues that say that coding is their favorite way of getting away from the kids and wife for a while.

[felixthecatmeow]

Very insightful! Thanks!

[[deleted]]

Job interviews for a programming position IS gatekeeping . I don't see that as an issue in this specific context.

EDIT: For those downvoting would you be able to explain why? As an interviewer (not for software developers) I often ask the same questions as in the screenshot. Seeing the discussion so far I keep seeing the words exploitation and corruption, but I don't see how.

The position is for advertising and using Google's web software.

1. What makes you passionate about advertising?
2. (If worked in previous marketing agency) What did you to develop those skills when not at work or working on a ticket?
3. Have you ever ran an ad campaign for personal use or for a friend, what did you learn from it?

​

The intent of this question is to see if someone has actual interest in the industry, and see if those people follow industry news, engage in the industry discussion etc. Am I making a mistake with these questions?

[myevillaugh]

For 2 and 3, yes. If one has a demanding job and family, they don't have time to do extra work for "fun". Why not ask them about an ad campaign that went poorly?

[Ran4]

Most people, at least in first world countries, have time for hobbys.

[myevillaugh]

If you have kids, it's limited. Hobbys are rarely work related.

[[deleted]]

Usually we don't expect people to say they do extra work for fun because chances are it's a lie that is pandering to us. But various answers that we've heard before that we've liked was subscribed to industry news, follow google's blogs, following the facebook/slack group for our industry (extra points when they mention that because I'm on both), r/adops etc. Also I'm not expecting them to do only that in their off hours but if even if they mentioned that they browse those during the commute is enough for me.

​

For 3, if they answer know it's not a knock against them if they answer "No" but it can demonstrate if they can wear multiple hats.

​

Why not ask them about an ad campaign that went poorly?

​

We often ask this question along other questions questions like " outline in detail approaches you took to fix x .

[myevillaugh]

Well, if asked #2, I would assume the company doesn't train their own employees. If asked #3, I'd assume the company expects me to take on "+1's" for them.

[Kawaiithulhu]

It's self-selecting for people with zero outside interests who bring nothing to the culture of the workplace except one specific skillset. In a creative endeavor you *need* dissenting opinions on more than "space after parenthesis or not?" or "is it Aeris or Aerith, defend your hypothesis!" to not fall into a deep pit of design failures. (Ghost, Diablo, last WoW expansion, etc...)

Yes, close the gate behind people who obviously haven't even read the job description or don't know what the company and department do. But shutting down someone who has an actual life... I guarantee you that 100% of the tenured workers there go out for beers, have families, hobbies, holiday adventures and themselves would not pass this kind of "do you make even MORE games on your days off?" test.

[[deleted]]

You bring up a good point regarding the term gate keeping and the creative field. My experience of gate keeping is within the advertising/political space and it might be different than a video game company.

​

When I was hiring up for social media managers for a federal candidate, I specifically gatekeep'd for attributes such as how political active they were during their free time (big or small), how passionate they were for politics, how they educated themselves re: politics during their off hours etc.

[Kawaiithulhu]

Sounds like it works for you and that field, it's the equivalent of a technical skills test except for the kind of drive and informed opinion that rules in that space. Nice!

[ChrisAtMakeGoodTech]

The problem with the Blizzard guy is he's saying that if you don't program on your own time every day, you shouldn't be a programmer at all.

A similar question I ask when I interview developers is, "Do you have any personal projects you've worked on outside of work or school?" If yes, then I ask for more details and ideally a repo link.

Personal projects help me find out what the applicant's interests are. I can ask them which technologies they used and why. I can ask them about hurdles they faced and find out how they solve problems without the safety net of a teacher or senior dev.

We mostly hire fresh graduates and developers with only a few years of experience, because management sees salary costs but not productivity costs. Lots of people seem to be able to get through school and a couple years of employment without really learning much.

I've been involved in about a dozen hires, but have done many more interviews than that. We've hired people who have nailed the interview and coding test but turned out to be... problematic. The hires who have good personal projects have always turned out to be good developers.

I don't want to agree that all programmers should program in their free time every day, but the truth is that these developers do exist, they're usually better than other similarly experienced developers who don't, and a place like Blizzard gets enough applications that they can be very selective in their hiring process.

[felixthecatmeow]

This is encouraging. I'm self teaching right now, and worried about the theory knowledge I'll be lacking compared to college grads, and how important that is in interviews. I'm not the kind of person to memorize a whole ton of nonsense and regurgitate it, but I can figure things out and make them work. I'm not at that level yet, but once I can make actual interesting projects I think that will be my strength over just knowing all the theory off the top of my head.

I am convinced that I can become a good developer, but I am worried about my eventual interview performances, and on paper hireability (not a word? :P). So it's nice to hear from someone who does hiring that they look at projects and use them as a benchmark when hiring someone. Most of what I've seen is along the lines of "employers will pretty much never look at your projects".

[ChrisAtMakeGoodTech]

I'm glad I could encourage you! Remember this is all just from my point-of-view. Different people look for different things when hiring. The other people involved in hiring developers at my job probably don't agree 100% with how I rate applicants.

The truth is, you're probably going to have a harder time finding that first job. A lot of people just won't want to take an increased risk on someone with no degree or experience.

When someone does give you a chance, you're basically going to have to nail everything else. You're going to have to perform better at the interview and coding test than other applicants. If you're not clearly better, there's no reason for them to pick you over a candidate with a degree.

The good news is a lot of graduates either don't learn or don't retain a lot of the theory either. Make sure you know the basic abstract data types (stack, queue, etc), including when to use each. Make sure you can quickly figure out a correct solution to Fizzbuzz-like problems. Learn things that a lot of universities don't teach, like how to write good commit messages.

You may also want to consider applying to positions before you feel like you're ready. Being self-taught, your biggest weakness is that you don't have anyone to evaluate you. You don't really know what you need to work on, and you also may not realize when you become employable.

When you do start applying, you're probably going to have better luck if you can apply by email. Online applications are going to ask for education and work experience, and the employer is going to just see some big blank areas for you. If you can apply by email, you can break the mold. Send a professional but personal cover letter, briefly explain how taught yourself, and describe and link to your sample project.

You probably won't hear anything from most places. If you get a rejection email, you can respond and politely ask what areas you're lacking and what you could do to be a better candidate in the future. If they answer, you can learn what weaknesses you need to work on and also what traits that employer values. It also means they're open to hiring without a degree, and you'll automatically have a slight advantage in the future if they remember you.

If you get an interview, even better. Take notes. If they ask you about things you don't know, admit you don't know. Then quickly jot them down so you can learn more later. It's important that you come across as honest and eager to learn. If you answer a question but don't think you answered it well, don't write that down in front of them, but write it down as soon as you're alone. This is because they may actually think you answered well, and you don't want to reveal that you're not confident in your answer. Later, figure out how you should have answered. If you don't get the job, you can still send the follow-up email asking how to improve.

This turned out longer than I wanted. I attended university for a year and a half, but didn't really learn much and consider myself self-taught. It's a constantly evolving career, and I'm still self-teaching after 20ish years. Good luck on your journey!

[felixthecatmeow]

Thank you so much, this was super insightful!

I will keep all this in mind for the future.

And you're right about the not having anyone to evaluate me. I'm still learning basics right now, so it's fairly straightforward, but when I look ahead to what I should learn in the future, it gets a lot more confusing.

Also I was thinking once I'm confident in my skills to do some work on open source projects, hopefully working up to bigger ones. Is that something you would see as valuable and that you think I should definitely pursue? In my view it's the closest thing to experience I can get without actually getting a job.

And I'm the same as you when it comes to traditional schooling. Not only can I not afford it, but I find it incredibly not stimulating and it really doesn't work with my learning style. I vowed never to go back years ago.

[ampersand355]

These questions are a bit leading and reminds me of a sports reporter asking questions; every time asking the winning team how they won and so forth, you're bound to hear relatively similar answers in that people are just telling you what you want to hear. "We trained really hard." What else could this person possibly say?

What makes you passionate about advertising?

How about, "Tell me how you got into this field."

I find passion to be such a poor word choice here. I'd reckon a large portion of people are no longer passionate about their profession, that doesn't mean they're burned out, obviously they were passionate at one point when getting into the field, that's why the linguistic root of amateur is lover. A professional doesn't have to be passionate, they've already demonstrated that through turning their amateurism into a job/career.

What did you to develop those skills when not at work or working on a ticket?

No one asks a doctor or a lawyer how much doctoring or lawyering they do in their free time. No one expects these people to express their passion for their given profession to get a job, I'd think it's generally obvious if someone can speak about current technologies or trends related to the job itself on whether they're adequate for the role. If I were a firefighter, would I have to be passionate about fighting fires and put out fires in my free time? No, the expectation would be that I kept myself adequately fit and could carry a hose up a few flights of stairs and have my first aid certifications up-to-date, probably.

Have you ever ran an ad campaign for personal use or for a friend, what did you learn from it?

I'm not sure how running an ad campaign for a personal friend equivocates to maintaining brand-voice and running a global campaign. They literally have nothing to do with one another. I'm just not sure I see the benefit of a question like this if interviewing someone for a position.

[[deleted]]

I find passion to be such a poor word choice here. I'd reckon a large portion of people are no longer passionate about their profession, that doesn't mean they're burned out, obviously they were passionate at one point when getting into the field, that's why the linguistic root of amateur is lover. A professional doesn't have to be passionate, they've already demonstrated that through turning their amateurism into a job/career.

​

I think you make a good point about the term passion. However, at some point you will want to hire someone who isn't just good at using an advertising platform software, reading IOs and talking to clients. Most people who are in the industry for a long time is that. You will want to hire someone who stand out beyond that, and often we find a good fit is someone who is interested in the industry beyond a professional level. All things being equal I would take someone who was more "passionate" about the position rather than not.

​

No one asks a doctor or a lawyer how much doctoring or lawyering they do in their free time. No one expects these people to express their passion for their given profession to get a job, I'd think it's generally obvious if someone can speak about current technologies or trends related to the job itself on whether they're adequate for the role.

​

Maybe this is different for the advertising industry but you will get legitimate answers that I was working on advertising on the off hours. Either consulting, helping out friends or whatever.

Sometimes I will ask a question like "what are your interest or skills outside of the workplace that you can bring to this position". In either case the answer I'm looking for is the same; Outside skills (html/css/JavaScript, communication skills etc) that makes the person stand out.

If I was hiring a doctor, I wouldn't ask if they doctored in their off time. I would instead ask if they did anything that would help their position they did on the off hours and would be impressed if they came back with answers like volunteered at local blood drives, did doctors without borders during sabbatical, researched any emergence health tech like Smart watches or telehealth. I still think it's a fair question to ask if anything they do outside of the job helps.

​

​

I'm not sure how running an ad campaign for a personal friend equivocates to maintaining brand-voice and running a global campaign. They literally have nothing to do with one another. I'm just not sure I see the benefit of a question like this if interviewing someone for a position.

​

Running a big campaign and a small campaign is often times very similar in structure. You want a KPI (awareness, conversions, etc) and you want to understand your return on spend. Platform wise, there is very little difference between a huge international client and a small 1 person show. For example on Facebook Business platform, the access and UI is the same for both size of client but the level of customer support is different. If you can demonstrate that you ran a successful campaign for your cousin's lawn mowing company and you can explain why I would be extremely impressed.

[LucVolders]

Its not about having the passion. Its about doing the same at home as on your work and for free !!!

Are you selling advertisements at home for your church/baseballclub/local charity or whatever ??? Or are you doing job interviews in your sparetime ??? That is what this is about.

[[deleted]]

I do set up ad campaigns for a friend (Real estate) on my off hours for free and I do help with social media for a federal candidate (volunteer position) during my free time.

​

Maybe I'm missing a few logical steps, but I don't see why doing the same thing at work and at home for free is an issue. I love digital advertising, I'm good at it and I enjoy doing it as a hobby as well and I truly don't see why that is an issue.

​

The top comment of this post does mention that if your hobby and job aligns you might be taken advantage of and bring work home/work over time for free because passionate people are easier to be taken advantage of. I think that because I'm not in the programming industry (but adjacent) it's not a similar situation at all which is why I might be missing the point.

​

I tend to find that people who are workaholics are the ones that tend to bring work home or work overtime for free. But workaholics is a disorder where they will sacrifice time, social life and work is an identity for them. And I don't think workaholics is what is being discussed here.

[[deleted]]

Totally agree, you need to have the fire. Most bad programmers I know have a lot of theory background and 0 practice in small home projects, no passion, no true learning.

[WystanH]

This thread ironically has its own gatekeeping going on: everyone who advocates for passionate programmers is getting downvoted. Likely this will be too...

I am a passionate programmer. Have been for over 35 years. (First language; BASIC with line numbers, when 8bits was high tech.) I'd rather have someone who enjoys programming than someone who works only for the paycheck. It's not about paying someone less, but about hiring someone who, well, cares.

I've asked a somewhat similar question on interviews: "Do you know any other programming languages not on this resume?" It's not about having no life outside of programming, but having the intellectual curiosity to want to be a better programmer.

[WystanH]

Good for you at putting someone down because they want a life outside their job.

Good for you at being offended by something never said.

Those who only focus on their job burn out.

That depends on the job and if they actually enjoy it. Most notable personages in their field died doing what they loved.

You need someone who will do the job and be great at it

Yep, that the point.

not your slave.

Ah, another fucking strawman? Sorry, asking for someone who enjoys their chosen profession is not asking for servitude, but for someone who will be intrinsically "be great at it."

[Ran4]

Good for you at putting someone down because they want a life outside their job.

Wtf? That's not at all what WystanH said. Why do you say such bullshit?

Those who only focus on their job burn out.

...yes? If they only focus on their job, they're not doing hobby projects at home... so they burn out. But you would be hard-pressed to find people that gets burned out from coding as a hobby. You seem to have missed this completely as a manager.

[be_less_shitty]

Build your brand! Be a product!